Fly Fishing Forum - Reply to Topic
Art of Casting Analysis, refinement of the cast

Thread: Waves in my cast! Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options
Rate Thread
If you like, you can add a score for this thread.

Topic Review (Newest First)
02-13-2005 01:00 PM
juro One thing I've noticed in studying this since we discussed last... (a short one )

Bending the rod all the way down to the butt and letting that energy roll up to rod to the tip in a long continuous wave puts a tremendous amount of tension in the line. So much that there is no room for slack or wiggles.

At lighter power, it does not drive the cast very well. But given enough power to really put some hutspa into the bottom of the blank at your hand, and given that the casters motion guides that energy up and out thru the rod directly into the turnover wedge at the point of the loop through the stroke, an absolutely tight bottom and top leg of the loop results.

It's as if there is no physical margin for any slack at all to occur due to an absolute sense of tension in the line throughout.

This line tension in flight is often acheived by pushing the rod tip out way out in front accompanied by a double haul, however that effective method puts a real cap on the maximum distance one can acheive. This type of common cast uses only the upper half of the rod. In fact I would go further to say that most casters do not leverage the power at the bottom of the blank.

It would take a ten page post to describe the details so in summary:

Learning to load the rod at the butt and driving the butt power up through the whole blank to the stop point (which must not be too low) makes the line so tigth from end to end there is no room for wiggles, even at moderate power.

Give it a try, I found it to be the most effective cure even if there were 10 difference varieties of waves in the cast once achieved there was simply no room for waves in all that line tension.
02-13-2005 04:03 AM
Limpe This was one excellent discussion!
Learned a bunch!

Seems i'm not the only one having this "wave" problem only on my RPLXi's...

Great!

Greetings from a very snowy Holland...
01-25-2005 07:49 AM
FKrow Juro,
Great discussion, thank you for posting the excellent details.

Regards,
Fred Krow
01-24-2005 09:51 PM
bd12345678 Just wanted to add:
Now, I've been only in this game for about six years now, but maybe this could help if you haven't already solved the problem. If you have access to a fiberglass rod, I suggest practicing with it. If you started out casting grahpite, the slow action will prove challenging at first, but it will do several things more effectively. You will be forced to accelerate more slowly and in a longer arc, giving more time to analize your cast, load your rod and improve your timing. Secondly, a Fiberglass rod (or otherwise slow graphite) will force you to use your arm and wrist to dampen it after the abrupt stop the "flings" the line forward; in other words the moment the rod releases its load, the line, you use your arm to absorb the shock waves that continue to travel down the rod. My guess is that your stop is too abrupt. While it's important to accelerate smoothly, it's like-wise important to dampen the rod and stop smoothly after the initial halt. This doesn't mean cast with a loose wrist (although styles vary so greatly, this is pertinent to an overhead, basic cast.), but more once the rod has exerted all of its good, line flinging energy, stop the wiggles in the rod that will cause such oddities in your cast, such as "waves".
12-15-2004 10:23 PM
Jackster1 You might want to check for slack line while making your cast. As the slack line tightens quickly it might send a shock to the rod which will make the tip wiggle. As you know, the line follows the rod tip.
Just a thought!
11-25-2004 11:04 AM
speyrd
Sine waves

After you stop the rod on the forward cast release your grip. The rod will take care of things from there.
Leroy......................
11-16-2004 08:49 PM
Jakerthesnaker Thanks for all of the great insight and help. Currently I am trying to re-read my digiatal camera's instructions for the video capture mode. Also I have begun building a lefty sytle shelf to cast on. Is this a smart thing or will I become to accustomed to it and eventually rely on it being there?hmmm.

Also, I think one of my major problems is that there are a zillion styles out there. From Rajeff to Lefty and all of them in between, it is somewhat overwhelming to fine tune your cast and have everyone say something similar but just different enough from each other to cause some major flaws to appear. I know this sounds odd but I feel like I have to choose one type and learn it to the best of my ability, which is the problem. (Does this make sense?) I understand that the essentials are the same in all of them but the difference is in the details, and for someone with limited time who is trying to improve it can be horrible to see one guy cast to the end of the earth in one style and then another do the same.

I don't mean to sound like I am complaining, I am not. I love to just get out and cast, anytime. I find it relaxing and soothing as well as forming some good (and often bad) muscle memory. Anyway just venting. What styles or forms do you use and why, or does everyone just combine most of everything they learn and use some in this instance and others in that?

Thanks again,
Jakerthesnaker
11-16-2004 08:26 PM
roballen2 I am sure this is not the case because RPLXi's are awsome rods ( at least the ones i have cast were) But rod design can create this problem.. Over the last few years I have watched my boss design many rods and have seem him work this problem out of many of them. Most recently was with a 10 ft 6wt..
He designed it and it cast awsome great at all distances and very authoritative and tight looped but on ever cast there was a wave that traveled down the loop. It's called a "sign wave" don't know why but thats what it's called.. anyway so my boss said he knew how to get rid of it so he designed a new part and we made it and when we cast it the sign wave was completely gone. I never would have thought rod design was so important but it sure can be..

anyway I know this doesn't help but i thought it was interesting.. I would guess that somewhere in your forward stroke you are shocking the rod and causing the wave... try to watch you back cast and see if it's occuring there also,,,
11-16-2004 09:46 AM
Klem
waves

Juro, great discourse!!! I will copy this to my special file to digest later.
Jacob, Juro covered the topic and should help you. One additional point would be to look at your "drift" (reaching for more real estate) at the end of your backcast stop. Drifting allows you a longer fore stroke and with all of Juro's ideas your can wave good-bye to waves. Klem
11-15-2004 07:17 PM
juro I'd wait until you get to see some still/advance footage of your own cast, the answer may jump right out at you. Then if you still don't see it, consider sending it to your instructor, or any willing instructor to see what they see. I would be honored to be included in your list of reviewers.

I am by no means the authority on single-handed casting but I've been working my single hand casting a lot lately and have some thoughts to share. Others may chime in as they will likely have thoughts to share as well.

Smooth acceleration, straight path = correspondingly tight top leg of the loop:

The most informative descriptions I have come across lately are those that Bruce Richards has shared on the web and in text. I don't think you can go wrong by testing out the principles he describes on what movements relate to what results in overhead casting.

In general he states that the smoother and straighter the rod accelerates in it's path from backcast to stopping point, the smoother and straighter the top half of the loop will be. The more abruptly and the closer to this straight path the rod stops, the tighter the final loop will be.

Keep in mind that a convex path where the middle is humped upward will result in a wide weak loop; and a concave path where the middle in caved downward will result in a tailing loop / line collision. Straight is the only way to go, and I practice by thinking about the line from end to end in the air coming straight as opposed to where the rod tip is - it's easier for me to refine the line's vector than that speedy little tip on the end of a flexing rod. The end result is the same.

In a conversation at GGACC, Tim Rajeff once described line speed as the velocity that a well-formed top half of the loop reaches during flight. He used the word 'javelin' somewhere in that description, words I use to visualize the goal of a straight line path and smooth acceleration to this day.

Rate of change (acceleration), not speed:

It's not really about overall speed, it's more about acceleration - the rate of change in speed from start to finish. In fact anything other than a smooth ramp-up of acceleration works against you. The line will travel best with lots of momentum, and efficiency in it's flight path. You can add power later by increasing the rate of acceleration, and a little goes a long way.

Acceleration is misguided unless it is directed in a very straight path. For example, if the path is curved the cast will curve accordingly and energy will dissipate into thin air. If the path is headed straight ahead but the final rod stop pushes upward, a tailing loop will result.

I would recommend concentrating on low power, smooth acceleration first - then add more acceleration once the finesse is back.

Lengthen the path - but don't change the angle of the rod:

Aside from increased rate of acceleration from start to finish, the other trick to getting long casts is to lengthen the distance (path) that the rod tip travels from start to finish, hence making room for more acceleration, etc. This is how Lefty gets to the far end of the pool with just a little flick to finish a long smooth effortless stroke, a thing of beauty.

Although the belgian cast and long stroke methods work even when the rod is tilted almost horizontally, the most efficient method of creating a tight loop is to maintain the proper angle of the rod and it's loading properties regardless of how long you lengthen the stroke. In fact it seems that maintaining the proper angle of the rod lessens the amount you need to lengthen the stroke to achieve the same results, but I could be wrong. However that's the impression I get from experimentation.

Stopping - the bottom half of the loop:

The cast should end with an abrupt stop, which is different from a 'big wallop' stop which is quite common. Brian Niska of Whistler Flyfishing is a superb single-hand caster and refers to the stop as a sudden absence of acceleration rather than a hard stop, which is an interesting concept and should be tried.

When the path of acceleration is straight, and the speed of the rod has been ramping up pulling ever-faster against the other end throughout the path, all the rod has to do is stop pulling and the line will continue forward it it's path. In fact it's very useful to practice getting more of the power to manifest itself during the acceleration while putting less emphasis into the stop. This usually results in a super-smooth loop free of any turbulence, and if the rod stopped close enough (and just under) the top leg then it should be as tight as could be.

Although precision casting is often done with a vertical loop (top/bottom vertically aligned) most practical casting (e.g.clousers) is done with the top loop offset to the outside of the bottom loop slightly. 45 or 60 degrees off horizontal is common, safe and efficient. In fact some expert casters feel they have more power out to the side, though more accuracy close to the side. Your results may vary.

Finishing the cast: tucking and drifting:

Since the rod tip is deflected by the stroke during the cast, the recoil upon release of tension can create turbulence in the loop. The classic example is the tailing loop, which is also caused when the energy coming off the rod at the stop (bottom half) is pushing in a direction that is higher than the direction of the path of acceleration (top half).

It's often a good practice to slightly 'tuck' the rod tip under the path of acceleration (POA) to finish it, which creates a loop that is energized top and bottom. I play around with 'aiming' that tuck so that it's more parallel to the POA which negates some of the deflection in the bottom loop.

If done with too much gusto, or done too far forward/downward (past 10 o'clock) may put a large deflection into the rod causing turbulence to enter into the bottom half of the loop, pulling the top half out of the path of flight and weakening the cast.

Steve Rajeff talks about adding a final drift to finish the cast to dampen the recoil of the rod at the end of a long, powerful cast. This helps to reduce the turbulence that can be introduced into the bottom half of the loop when casting for distance, and might be something to think about in your example.

Other things to try:

You might go out in the yard and try an easy, smooth acceleration - which for me is the sensation that the rod is always moving a little quicker than the line and pulling it along at an increasing rate / tension. Then stop the rod abruptly as close to that path tucking the rod tip just under it with the final flick of the wrist, a little laser loop will emerge. Start with low power, high smoothness and don't worry about overall speed - concentrate on the rate of change over the distance from back to front.

While working on this, I found that even a moderate amount of acceleration in a very straight path and an abrupt, dampened stop close to this path will shoot the entire flyline or close to it with anything from a 6wt to 10wt. The amount of effort involved defied the results and made me wonder why I had been working so hard all these years.

Two factors directly influence distance casting - acceleration and length of path. Once you get things squeaky clean add more acceleration and a longer path - but keep the rod angle correct when lengthening the path.

a) clean backcast
c) straight path of line from rod tip to leader when coming forward...
b) smooth acceleration (vs. overall speed)
d) lengthening the path without dropping the rod tip
e) abrupt stop with minimal downward deflection


Jacob -

Just to be clear, I am no casting guru just a dedicated student. I am posting this in an effort to be helpful, but take it with a grain of salt. Others may rebut the things I have put forth, and debate is good - however I just wanted it to be clear that my intentions are just to share what others have shared with me on the topic per the question you asked. I sincerely hope it's helpful in some way!
11-14-2004 10:43 PM
Bob Pauli
Shock Waves

Make an ultra postive rod stop by hitting the rod butt against your forearm. This eliminates almost all shock waves from my single-hand casts. You may need to adjust your grip to allow the rod butt to contact your forearm.
11-14-2004 07:13 PM
Jakerthesnaker Thanks Juro,
I am mainly seeing them in the bottom leg of the line and wondering whether it was my lateral movement or just to much pressure. On the shoot it tends to decrease a somewhat but it is still some form of deficiency. I am going to attempt to watch lefty again tonight as well as locate the ole video camera.

But the strange thing is that when I cast my friends TiCr it is not as prevalent. (Which puzzles me but I guess it is up to actions) I have spent many days with my instructor up until the later parts of the summer and most likely need to return for some tune ups and changes to bad habits I most assuredly have developed.

Also, what drills do you find the most productive for adding some distance with regularity. I have been doing all of them from the lefty video and have found some extra distance but it seems that my cast has become this weird to the side thing that almost looks like belgian(that is a form correct?) casting. Is this poor form as well? Not like a sideways cast but more lateral if you know what I mean. (forgive me for the poor description)say like a 45 degrees feels natural? is this bad?

Thanks,
Jacob

ps. -do you think it is better to practice and work in the beginning with a medium/medium-fast action or a fast action? or does it even matter. If so when would you know to make a change from a mediocre rod to a faster one?
11-14-2004 02:01 PM
juro I've found the most effective thing you can do is video-tape yourself casting, and watch the little nuances of what you're doing in slo-mo (still/advance). Better yet watch it with an instructor. I've recommended this to many friends and students and the feedback has been consistently 'wow'. In fact I videotape myself regularly.

It's important to consider the angles of view so you can see all kinds of little nuances like tip deflection on the forward stop, or shock coming from the end of the backcast as it turns 180 to start the forward cast, abruptness of the power application causing shock waves, etc.

Curious - are you seeing waves in the top leg of the loop, the bottom leg, or both?
11-14-2004 12:32 PM
Jakerthesnaker
Waves in my cast!

I am somewhat new to the game and I guess consider myself a little below an intermediate caster, (or maybe intermediate but I don't know what I could use as a scale) who spends most of my time in practice working on distance and improving double haul timing.
Lately when I have been out practicing I have noticed some small 'shock'-like waves in my cast. I know that this is a casting deficiency but to date I cannot find what I am doing incorrectly. Too much power on the forward two count? I have been watching my Lefty videos and others and cannot find anything on this phenomenon and/or how to fix it. Also, it seems like the only time that it happens is when I am using my RPLXi as well.
Also, it seems like the more I practice the more I tend to work towards a Lefty-type delivery(more on the side with long rod travel) as opposed to the others, is there anyone out there who can tell me if this is a bad thing?

Thanks for all the help,
Jacob

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:15 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)