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Classic Atlantic Salmon No pursuit rivals salmon rivers, flies & legacy

Thread: Has it been proved inconclusively that spring fish breed springers?? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-15-2005 08:39 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveSadowski
Mike
There are a few issues for the river to contend with in the near future - the new tunnel as you said plus its still to be seen how the sale of the hydroelectric generation at Kielder will effect the river with regards to release sizes/durations.

Are you participating in the EA log book scheme ?
Dave

I believe that only part of the Milner Report was included, the full report was originally instigated by the then Minister after he received much correspondence extolling Kielder's virtues.
The report led to a fall out between the authors and the Hatchery regarding figures used, in fact the Hatchery refused to sign up to the report.
Kielder Hatchery as you will know was set up as mitigation for the loss of spawning due to the reservoir.
This mitigation, although not legislation, is imperpetuity, is funded 90% by the owner/perpetrator, NWL. The Hatchery is also currently running well below capacity on EA instructions.
I agree that the ideal is habitat and natural progressive spawning but as you mentioned the Tyne still has many problems future and present.
Therefore the Hatchery should be used as a 'safety valve' as well as mitigation and if the stocks are not required that year they should be used to help 'kick start' elsewhere. All in all hatcheries are good to have in this area/climate.

Yes I was part of the EA log Book scheme last year, however I am ashamed to admit that it was misplaced (I blame my tidy non-fishing wife!!) near the end of the season after religously fillng it in!

Mike
02-15-2005 08:00 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER
Justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Salmon
It would seem that this question brings us into the realm of ehics. (definitely not my strong suite) I would suggest that if "hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure" is justified by saying "well after I am done with that I will also kill said creature" then we definitely have a problem.
Sorry, I was merely quoting the old hunter 'argument' that was used in reply to 'Antis' that we actually culled and ate our quarry as opposed to playing with it.

Appreciate that you do not have that problem yet, but with hunting going here I feel we need to get our act together. Your other points re moral etc are well worth remembering.

Mike
02-12-2005 07:07 PM
Muckle Salmon
Wrong part of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Gunn
Wester Elchies not the Lower.
5 fish from the system full report later.
Too tired I had a late night with the Spey Supper last night. Too much drink after an early start fishing the Dee.
I have to admit that, that man is pouring whiskey into the Spey, but the piper is playing a lament
Malcolm. Keep it up and somebody is going to have to come over there and shoot you. THis is causing serious discord within my family as I am now seeing my father as a very evil man who dragged his poor unsuspecting children to a part of the world that only has a 5 month salmon season. I suspect that the only thing the piper is lamenting is that there is that much whiskey less for him to polish off. Trust me I know (my brother is a piper) if it wasn't for the drink there wouldn't be any pipers.
02-12-2005 02:39 AM
Gary W
Conehead Tubes

Strathglass Jaff,

I've been toying with conehead tubes over the last couple of years. I started by using plastic tubes for the dressing, with a smaller diameter removable plastic tube for inserting different size, colour, style of coneheads. I found that it was difficult to obtain plastic tubes that were stiff enough. I also found that while the inserted tube may fit before tying the dressing on the main tube, once the dressing was wrapped onto the tube, this compressed the tube to a small enough diameter to inhibit the smaller tube from being inserted.

I have now found that removing the plastic insert from aluminium tubes and dressing on them, inserting the tube liner, slotting a conehead on the end, and touching both sides with a lighter to form a lip on the plastic liner works best. This does not allow you to interchange coneheads, but does offer a more durable, less frustrating solution. Just make sure that you do not set fire to the dressing when using the lighter!!!

Slipstream aluminium tubes and plastic tube liner, as well as a range of coneheads are available from most good fishing stores. Glasgow Angling Centre has all this material.
02-11-2005 08:45 PM
Strathglass Jaf
First Post Hello

First time posting the forum so Hello to all!

Couldn't help but comment when reading the wee bit about the new spey website. Had a look today and all looks good can't wait until more beats start to feature. It makes really good, if slightly envious reading, while sitting in the city!

Anyway, apologies if this breeches list etiquette for change of topic but the reason I joined the list was that I had spent some fruitless time surfing in search of info about conehead tubes. Fancy tying some up for this season and wondered if any Scottish/uk based fishers could point me in direction of a supplier of blank tubes/cones?

Had a day fishing one(gifted to me and later lost) at the tail and of last season and even although I never turned a fish all day the fly just felt that it was doing all the right things at the business end.


Cheers.

SJ.
02-11-2005 06:16 PM
Willie Gunn Wester Elchies not the Lower.
5 fish from the system full report later.
Too tired I had a late night with the Spey Supper last night. Too much drink after an early start fishing the Dee.
I have to admit that, that man is pouring whiskey into the Spey, but the piper is playing a lament
02-10-2005 09:48 PM
Muckle Salmon
Justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by TYNE SPEYCASTER
Excellent points, I see now that tags may not be the answer.

However from the dreaded 'antis' point of view how do we honestly justify, if we need to, hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure, I am passionate about all aspects of my fly fishing and it now seems wrong to try and justify by 'cropping' one or two but what would you answer??

Mike
It would seem that this question brings us into the realm of ehics. (definitely not my strong suite) I would suggest that if "hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure" is justified by saying "well after I am done with that I will also kill said creature" then we definitely have a problem. I hope you dont misunderstand me. My position vis a vis catch and release does not originate from any moral viewpoint but is purely of a consevationist nature ( read self interest - If I felt I could justify it there would be considerable less salmon swimming up our rivers) . With regard to the 'antis' this is something that we really dont have to confront (as yet) over here. If it were I suppose my argument would be two pronged. First I would question whether there would be any salmon left if not for the efforts of the "sports fisherman" who are by far and away the greatest defenders of the species. Secondly I would question what harm we are doing to the species. As to any moral view they have on the subject, that is their business, not mine. I look at myself in the mirror every morning and I wish that all others could do the same.
Ramsay
02-10-2005 01:32 PM
DaveSadowski Mike

I presume you mean this report Tyne Fisheries Report

There are a few issues for the river to contend with in the near future - the new tunnel as you said plus its still to be seen how the sale of the hydroelectric generation at Kielder will effect the river with regards to release sizes/durations.

Are you participating in the EA log book scheme ?
02-10-2005 08:47 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Salmon
Just a couple of comments from this side of the pond. With regard to "tearing my hair out" - been there done that
Excellent points, I see now that tags may not be the answer.

However from the dreaded 'antis' point of view how do we honestly justify, if we need to, hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure, I am passionate about all aspects of my fly fishing and it now seems wrong to try and justify by 'cropping' one or two but what would you answer??

Mike
02-10-2005 08:20 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER
Genetics and Hatcheries

Now there's a subject for debate!!

Scientists worry about genetics but the practical, experienced Hatchery Managers (Peter Grey, Kielder) are not, who is right?

It would be good to merge the practical with the theoretical rather than infighting (EA etc) and come up with a team effort for the good of Salmo Salar, the best of each world, dream on!!

Which Wester Elchies are you on, main (timeshare) or lower?

The main looks totally mouthwatering with lovely pools and woodland (John Ashley Cooper liked them), will you be using Sam's Badger or will it be too early?

Tightlines anyway, any pics will be great, spare a thought for those frustrated fly fishers bolstering the Chancellors coffers whilst you fish!!

Jealosy is a horrible thing!!

Mike
02-09-2005 09:06 PM
Muckle Salmon
TAGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Gunn
I will be bald soon with tearing my hair out.
Start giving anglers tags and they will start killing fish.
Just a couple of comments from this side of the pond. With regard to "tearing my hair out" - been there done that - Malcolm can bear testimony to this. As to tags. The experience in Canada has essentially been that tags become,for most "anglers",nothing more than a quota to fill while allowing a rationalization for that killing. The true sportsman keeps or releases his catch based on his honest estimation of whether the resource is impacted by his decision. He then has to take into consideration the fact that he has to compensate for his less well enlightened brothers if the law allows them a kill. This concept of compensating for others has never allowed me to kill a salmon in all my years of fishing and limits me to killing ffewer and fewer trout each year. Education has its place and I endevour to do my best as many people do harm just through ignorance and once made aware of a situation will mend there ways. These people are not the problem. The problem is those intelligent, arrogant a@@@#$$#s who know how to catch fish but just dont give a damn. Over the years I have come to the opinion that the only solution lies in restriction/legislation as there are far too many who will take all the law allows and then make use of whatever loopholes are available to take more. As an example of this; In Newfoundland a liberal limit of grilse is allowed (if memory serves 6 or 8) on the mainland but 1 large salmon can be killed in Labrador. Therefore it becomes the highlight of the year for the majority of anglers in Newfoundland to head off to Labrador to kill their large salmon. In effect it becomes an entitelment.
I guess what I am saying is that choice works for the informed and well intentioned, and education works for the uninformed but well intentioned, but only the rule of law works for a fairly large minority (in some cases majority) with home we share our rivers.
Ramsay
02-09-2005 06:39 PM
Willie Gunn The greatest loss of fish is at sea. The scientists tell us that the river is up to max on parr, how they draw that conclusion, I'm not sure. I remember getting sick of catching parr whilst fishing, as a boy ,not now.
This year the Spey is to operate a smolt trap to see if the max potential smolts are going to sea, if so the river board are doing their job and the hatchery can be run down.
I am not 100% convinced by all the figures, in its prime the nets killed 20 000fish and the rods another 10k, now everyone seems happy with a rod take of 10k.

Hatcheries, I'm not a fan, genetics etc etc etc. Let the fish through to clean well looked after spawning beds, let the young fish have non polluted food supplies and hatcherys should not be necessary. BUT fishing is a business as well and if anglers are not catching fish a hatchery is good PR, a quick fix that is deemed necessary in todays climate.

Friday I'm on Wester Elchies for a week or so with a few regulars from here, Andy Wren, Graham Ritchie, Gardener (Charlie H) so we will try to produce a picture or two. I have the Spey supper to get through on Thursday night after a day on the Dee, I'm wooried this drinking will start to curtail my fishing, if I turn up late smelling of kelts may be I will not be invited next year.
02-09-2005 06:13 PM
TYNE SPEYCASTER
Dave and Willie Gunn

Dave,

Were you aware of the Milner (or Milne) report of last year where the EA were trying to discredit the importance of the work done by the Kielder Hatchery??

This was because the EA had boasted that the Tyne was the best in England and other systems were pressurising for their own hatchery

Thankfully at present if we get more mortalities in the summer estuary the Tyne is covered by the Hatchery, then there is the New Tyne Tunnel construction to contend with.

Willie Gunn,

What is the general consensus on the Spey hatcheries??

Good or bad??

The Tweed has no hatchery and keeps getting quoted as the 'yardstick' in fishery management.

We have always said that given the habitat etc the salmon can more than look after himself, so do the hatcheries enhance or limit/restrict recovery??

When the runs are in danger I feel we must have the hatchery facilty to 'kick start' whether good or bad!!

On another theme, are you fishing the Spey opening day and if so where and more photos of the elusive springers please, it keeps us office guys sane, just!!

Pot belly pigs are fine, they work don't they??

Regards

Mike
01-28-2005 10:57 AM
DaveSadowski The fish counter stats have been widely debated as I stated in my original post. The general feeling tends to be that the figures shown are/can be over the top as you stated. The rumor was that during the period you mentioned there was a movement of dace upstream through the counter which were included in the figures. There has now supposedly been video equipment installed to try and give more accurate figures.

The other problem is that if the counter figures tend to be on the high side then perhaps the Tyne spring run last year was even worse than 5000.

My problem with the tagging system would be that yes perhaps the honest "responsible game fishers" would abide by the letter of the law but unfortunately not everyone fishing the Tyne comes under that heading.

I also feel that every fish returned is one more potential fish on the redds which is what the Tyne requires. What happens if/when we have another dry summer and we loose 2000+ fish again ? The Tyne is a recovering river and I feel every effort should be made to keep it heading in the right direction. If that means 100% C&R than thats fine with me.
01-28-2005 09:11 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER Willie Gunn,

Please, I would not want to be responsible for any hair loss!!

Tagging has been suggested as an alternative that apparently works for responsible game fishers, not the 'anglers' that you refer to.

We have to give some trust surely.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
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