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Art of Casting Analysis, refinement of the cast

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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-09-2004 06:13 AM
juro Which text / post are you referring to? I don't recall having any confusion over what you have clarified; quoting would help.
08-09-2004 05:57 AM
2HandTheSalt Juro, what I think Lefty is saying there is that the size of your loop is determined by the distance the tip of the rod travels during the speed-up-and-stop.

Bear in mind that these are not, " Lefty's," principles, but merely his statements of what he and many others believe to be scientific facts based on physics, and stated in what he believes to be a simplified way for people to understand how to improve their casting.

The path of the rod tip travel is covered by the principle about the line traveling in the direction of the rod tip during the speed-up-and-stop.
08-08-2004 10:29 PM
juro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick J
But what are you doing to generate the power snap? Lefty suggests keeping the wrist firm and I think it is far easier to generate the power snap by turning the wrist over. This instantaneously moves the rod tip through a very powerful snap that is not as easy if you keep the wrist straight.
These things certainly are not mutually exclusive. To generate the power snap the acceleration I apply a burst of power AND the wrist is slightly turned over so that the thumb angle changes from tilted with the rod to straight with the forearm, constituting no more than 45 degrees - taking care to keep the wrist as firm as humanly possible once it gets there (which is how I interpret Lefty's statement). Also the arm is kept angled upward until the loop is well underway, a high stop.

Quote:
I think there is overemphasis on the so called straight line path. If you are not rotating around the elbow or just opening and closing the wrist it is likely that if you are smoothly applying acceleration you will generate a straight line path. If you are not accelerating (but say pop from the top) you are not generating a straight line path. The direction of the path is certainly important as that is the direction the line will go
With all due respect, I think there is underemphasis on it. I found through experimentation it yielded dramatic results when combined with a strong power snap. But then again, people have vastly different styles and there is no right or wrong, just what works for you.

cheers,
Juro
08-08-2004 09:41 PM
Rick J But what are you doing to generate the power snap? Lefty suggests keeping the wrist firm and I think it is far easier to generate the power snap by turning the wrist over. This instantaneously moves the rod tip through a very powerful snap that is not as easy if you keep the wrist straight.

I think there is overemphasis on the so called straight line path. If you are not rotating around the elbow or just opening and closing the wrist it is likely that if you are smoothly applying acceleration you will generate a straight line path. If you are not accelerating (but say pop from the top) you are not generating a straight line path. The direction of the path is certainly important as that is the direction the line will go
08-08-2004 08:06 PM
juro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick J
The forward stroke is just a lowering from the shoulder with the last thing occuring again the wrist turning over giving the burst of acceleration at the end. It is difficult to generate the same acceleration with just the arm and stopping the rod as you can by turning the wrist over at the stop. The more rotation you have in the elbow as you stop, the lower the rod tip is and the wider your loop. If you keep the elbow tight, the hand stops just below eye level with the rod tip very high giving a very tight forward cast

I think "straight line path" really just means you do not ever want the rod tip to rise during the forward stroke then drop again - this means you have let up on the acceleration and the tip unloads then loads again giving a tailing loop
"Just the arm"...
If you are just making a point by citing a theoretical cast without it, carry on. But if you were saying that people saying "straight line path" were advocating moving the rod with just the arm and not finishing the stroke with a power snap, you would be mistaken. I have not heard anyone advocating just moving the arm without a power-snap/SUAS/hard-stop/etc in this thread. The discussion around "straight line acceleration" is to combine the two motions (pre-load and wrist snap at the end) for max results.

"straight line path" means...
For me, "straight line path" (leading up to the burst) means a whole lot more than rod tip position during the forward stroke and relevance to tailing loops. Straight line path refers to the directional build-up of tension used to get the entire line moving to target before the final power snap / suas / hit / hard stop / whatever you wish to call it.

IMHO - Bruce Richards describes it best, he says that this initial acceleration path becomes the path of the upper half of the loop when you stop. I found this to be absolutely true and the better you do this, the better the upper half of loop you get. Conversely the power snap forms the lower half of the loop and lastly the distance between the straight line path and the stop postion of the rod tip (deflection notwithstanding) defines the size of the loop.
08-08-2004 07:18 PM
juro Hi Rick, thanks for the comments.

As I mentioned earlier please don't read too much into the sketch! My freehand drawing skills should not be taken too literally, kinda like that colonial map of the united states that shows Massachusetts as large as the rest of the continent - things are not to scale and intended to emphasize certain aspects

I also do raise my arms a bit even when overhead casting and raise them notably when spey casting. Having a slight decline in the forward stroke certainly is not a bad thing especially for casting styles where the power snap / suas is doing most of the work getting power from deep load low in the blank from good technique.

My point is NOT to say the picture is perfect, rather it's provided just to say that the rod tip can move in a straight line even when bending thru the stroke - but more importantly the initial acceleration and it's transition into the burst/stop can be straight which means everything to a good cast.

The drop in the tip after the stop is not meant to show intent or be to scale, but it is there to emphasize that the stop must occur below the path of the moving line, and that there is potential for deflection per the post it's associated with.

But then again, if it causes more discussion then it's glitches are actually cause for healthy discourse and that's OK too.
08-08-2004 06:25 PM
Rick J The idea of the speed up at the end is the main reason I prefer a much shorter more vertical stroke. I don't think that Juro's sketch really represents the short stroke as one poster suggested. The rod is going in a pretty much horizontal path with only a slight drop up to the point where the rod is at maximum load- his sketch then shows a marked drop which either method (Lefty's or the "more traditional") will have as you then lower the rod to the water.

The hand motion is much more up and down with the traditional shorter stroke method. The back cast is pretty much just raising the arm from the shoulder with not alot of elbow rotation - the hand stops opposite the ear and the thumb is pointing stright up - note this means there is a bit of wrist activity which I think is key for this method - the last thing that happens is the wrist goes from "closed" to "straight" which really gives that burst of acceleration right at the end before you stop. Watching Steve Rajeff on Mel's advanced tape has done more for giving me a very tight back cast than anything else!!

Once you stop you can add any amount of rod drift depending on a number of factors - this does nothing to help the back cast but allows more forward travel in the forward cast (not really necessary if your timing is good but more necessary in adverse windy conditions etc. ) The forward stroke is just a lowering from the shoulder with the last thing occuring again the wrist turning over giving the burst of acceleration at the end. It is difficult to generate the same acceleration with just the arm and stopping the rod as you can by turning the wrist over at the stop. The more rotation you have in the elbow as you stop, the lower the rod tip is and the wider your loop. If you keep the elbow tight, the hand stops just below eye level with the rod tip very high giving a very tight forward cast

I think "straight line path" really just means you do not ever want the rod tip to rise during the forward stroke then drop again - this means you have let up on the acceleration and the tip unloads then loads again giving a tailing loop
08-08-2004 06:15 PM
FKrow Klem,

Thank you for excellent explanation.

I have learned more on this site than any other internet discussion in recent years.

Regards,
Fred Krow
08-08-2004 10:23 AM
Klem
Creep?

Fred,
In your post of 8-6 you stated that you thought "creep" was moving the rod tip back an additional amount. Actually "creep" is moving the rod forward without any loading of the rod before you start the power portin of the foward cast. This "creep" reduces the length of the casting arc and will cause all sorts of problems. What you describe is "follow-through" and should not introduce slack to the line. "Follow-through" allows the caster to a small amount of length to their stroke and 'follow-through" will prevent the dreadful "creep". This information gather through the FFF casting booklet. Klem
08-07-2004 07:27 AM
Tore Thanks for the reminder Juro! I was lucky this time

Tore
08-06-2004 10:46 PM
juro Thanks for the explanation, I experiment with this style often with two-handed rods. I will definitely get the DVD.

I know this was your first post but please be aware that the policy you just agreed to states that non-sponsor links will not be posted without an effort made by you to suggest sponsorship of this site.

LOOP already is a sponsor, so no harm no foul. Just a note for next time!


Thanks!

Juro Mukai
Founder, Flyfishing Forum
08-06-2004 09:22 PM
Tore Juro, I'll try.
It is somewhat similar to the Mel Krieger/Steve Rajeff concepts, perhaps with different emphasis. The same concepts apply for both one- and two-handed rods, but when I said 100ft I was talking about one-handed rods. The idea is to use small movements of the arm to apply long movements to the rod, thus keeping the use of energy to a minimum and the accuracy at a maximum.
In practical terms: The backcast is done with the forearm, maintain the elbow-angle and drift by pushing the elbow forward. For the fore cast pull the elbow back while simultaneously opening the elbow-angle. Use the "V-grip" and apply the main pressure of the grip with your ring- and little finger. These have the same function as the left arm when two-hand casting (if you're rignt handed). The 'elbow-down' in the fore cast is the essential part - how the handle travels down. This is an efficient way to load the butt section with little effort.
For added length you can make the drift longer, and apply more power on the haul, of course. Drift upwards rather than backwards, and again pull the elbow back so that the overarm returns to the vertical starting position.

Now this turned out a big mess I guess you'd better get the dvd. There's mostly two hand casting, but the main concepts are shown with a one hand rod. You also see some pretty nice salmon fishing from Iceland. Henrik Mortensen is a developer for Scierra.

Göran Andersson, his and my mentor, is the first guy to use the expression 'underhand cast', and is widely recognized as its inventor. He was the mastermind behind Sage's European series. He is currently working as the chief developer at Loop Tackle in Sweden www.looptackle.se.
08-06-2004 07:30 PM
FKrow JimS,

2. The speed up at the end of the stroke is not intuitive, and generally difficult to do until repeated practice sessions inculcate it into muscle memory.
3. An abrupt stop is also counter-intuitive because most sports require follow through.


I agree, this was my initial problem years ago when I struggled to understand basic casting.

One of my methods of practice was on the commute to work on the interstate,,,,,I would pantomine the casting S_U_A_S with a pencil in my hand,,,,,some very strange looks from other drivers.

Regards,
Fred Krow
08-06-2004 05:34 PM
jimS Juro, good summary.

Observing most casters, three things standout:
1. Most backcasts tend to dip. This is a function of not accelerating and stopping on a rising or at least a horizontal angle.
2. The speed up at the end of the stroke is not intuitive, and generally difficult to do until repeated practice sessions inculcate it into muscle memory.
3. An abrupt stop is also counter-intuitive because most sports require follow through.

If there is one fault most casters need to overcome to add distance, it is the abrupt stop. Without acceleration at the end or a haul, an abrupt stop will generate a tight loop if the line is straight on the forward cast.

Simms
08-06-2004 05:32 PM
juro Tore -

Thanks for the recommendation. I will definitely get a copy to study.

Can you explain a little bit what the principles are - despite the language concerns? Actually your english is excellent!

Is this primarily geared toward two-handed rods or also single handed rods with a double haul?

Do the concepts support casting over 100ft when needed? (I frequently fish where casts over 100ft are necessary).

thanks in advance
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