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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-20-2004 12:38 PM
FishHawk Would love to do a Jorsey Clave on Doc' s Turf. Would need to know well in advance for part-time job purposes. FishHaw
07-20-2004 11:16 AM
Doc Duprey
Two-handed casting 1-2-3

Just as a small tidbit of info...

October ROCKS here in Jersey. Things can get really good with lots of fish and lots of action on the come on down!

Seriously, if there is anything I can do to help you and Drew get things set up for a Grand Finale Clave, just say the word.

Best regards,

07-20-2004 09:25 AM
juro Doc -

Andrew Moy of Tightlines Flyfishing and I have been discussing a Sandy Hook Clave during the fall migration. Might as well hit Montauk while there too. I have a number of events stacking up in September but if October is not too late it would work for me as a way to say good bye to the stripers until 2005. Sobering thought, eh? Thank goodness for Fly Shows!

We will definitely put on a two-hander clinic then. Also some big fly discussion and surf fishing technique demonstrations should be part of the agenda.

Anyone who would be interested in a Grand Finale Clave please reply. Sandy Hook / Montauk Grand Slam Finale Clave, early October most likely.
07-20-2004 08:46 AM
Doc Duprey [QUOTE=juro]

Any Atlantis owners who would like to join in on these refinement workshops please let me know.


I for one would be VERY interested in such a workshop...I need to get ready for the fall migration and blitz city here in New Jersey!

Just let me/us know when and where.

Best regards,

07-20-2004 08:29 AM
juro good idea! I should have my video camera back by then too.
07-19-2004 01:57 PM
placement of hands

Hi Juro,
When I come up in August if you me to bring pro digital camera to photograph hand positions and line control just let me know.

fish we must
07-19-2004 12:34 PM
juro Great meeting up with you guys again.

The Airflo 35 ft type III head on the polyshoot Dick had felt light yet shot very well, in fact it was best to use a light touch to get the most out of that setup. The best way to maximize that shooting head's distance was to:

1) ensure a clean straight path of the rod tip throughout the stroke
2) load and unload the rod smoothly with acceleration, don't over power it
3) use the underhand pull a little more to keep it snappy (not too much)
4) stop the rod high and let the line fly further

The rod could handle a little more grains than that head but it was plenty to load it and the head shot well with very little effort at all provided the stroke was straight and the timing / angle good on the hard stop.

One note: starting too early forward from a backcast (creep) will take away from that initial load on the rod that gets accelerated forward... that start-up inertia is very important for maximizing the load in the rod coming forward thru the increasing acceleration of the stroke leading up to the stop. Get a strong enough backcast to straighten the line, but start loading against the backcast with your forward stroke before the leader jumps out straight but not while a length of flyline would still need to be straightened before the rod loads on the forward cast.

Alignment of the casting stroke is absolutely critical with two-handers. Use the hand on wall exercise I showed you to help teach your hand to track true, and don't forget to coordinate your bottom hand as well as the top. Things should improve dramatically as it does not take much power to get over 100' cast consistently with a clean stroke. Effort is minimal when the loop passes through a small imaginary cylinder in the air.

Practice both sides, and take time to perfect the backcast.

The SA Intermediate 12wt line Brendan had was a pleasure to cast and shot to the backing knot without much trouble. With 30ft of line it did not really load the surf-tamer but the nice thing was you could continue to aerilialize more line and get a smooth and full load into the rod before shooting the rest. Very nice feel to it.

This more-line casting style lends itself well to nicely tapered longer belly lines and feels quite natural. However shorter compact heads in various densities are sometimes better for throwing big flies, fishing fast deep rips, etc - especially when the fly is stripped in to the leader butt in order to fish it effectively. Both should be learned and practiced.

With two-handed rods the ideal loading and unloading of the energy would occur between 10:30 and 1:30 as opposed to opening down to the horizontal on the forward stroke. If the loading and release of the energy is on the forward half with almost a horizontal rod stop, the line goes forward with a larger "nose" (open forward loop). This larger shape is less wind resistant and does not allow for casting of shorter head lines which require an efficient shooting technique. Where almost any line can be cast effectively with a two-handed high stroke from 10:30-1:30 on the dial, the forward nose will only work well when enough line can be aerialized during the false casting build-up.

Because of the proper loading of the rod, the line was shooting out to the backing in this case, but again the shooting head would not have fared well and a headwind would kill that cast in it's tracks.

I would recommend to all two-handed overhead casters:

- Practice a 'perfect baby loop' with minimal energy and build up power slowly
- practice the Scandinavian underhand stroke to identify with your bottom hand
- practice a stroke that loads (low speed) well back of 12:00 and speeds up
to stop crisply at 10:30

A suggestion I would make is try to stay put where the rod stop on the backcast and start applying the load back there. Acclerate the rod over midnight and stop it sharply at 10:30-10am on the virtual clock to let the loop carry forth on a straight arrow path at a higher column in the air. Although coming forward and punching the loop ahead near the horizontal works with longer headed lines, the higher stroke will work with all lines (weight forward, shooting heads, spey taper lines, etc.) It will also ensure maximum distance shooting running line and lead to tight loop development.

I enjoyed and learned a lot in the exercise, especially that I need to work on a way to describe the circle-spey backcast to non-spey casters

My biggest take-away was that the basics are the most important part of casting two-handers, the rest is just acceleration and extending stroke. Get the basics and good casts just 'happen'.


Any Atlantis owners who would like to join in on these refinement workshops please let me know.

BTW - glad you guys liked the 9/10wt all-arounder.
07-16-2004 08:04 PM
juro Great! Sunday it is.

Please PM me with your phone contact info Dick - already have Brendans. I would prefer to meet in the morning since my better half has me tied up in the afternoon.

I would like to meet around Concord if that's OK with you guys. We can firm up a time based on both of your availability. 90 minutes to 2 hours should be more than enough for the first session. Depending on how things go we will have follow-ups until you guys are hitting peak form and distance.

I met with another Atlantis owner today for a tune-up and hit a 155 foot cast with him as a witness today. Details: I could only one time out of several tries, although 130-140 was pretty consistent, strong tailwind, 45 ft 650 grain shooting head with slickshooter 50# running line (115 ft) and a 10 ft leader to the backing knot. The setup totals 170 ft but due to loss of loop form after 140ft I am deducting 15 feet from total distance.

The head is only practical for fishing up to 120-125 feet in real life because of the problems with having too much running line in the stripping basket. Given a better basket... who knows.

Most importantly several key concepts were communicated that will improve his experience and abilities with the Atlantis. I look forward to the follow-up session to see if he is able to retain the adjustments, which require practice but have big returns on investment.


1) Introduced a smooth backcasting method that uses less power but more efficient energy transfer, not to mention a smooth and turbulence free shape to draw against for the start of the forward stroke.

2) Talked about the importance of straight rod path in two-handed casting, and tricks for tracking the rod tip via tracking of the hands. Also talked about vee-grip and stroke alignment, cleaning up hooking strokes and the wall trick. We used the freshly laid chalk lines on the soccer field as reference lines for line and rod tracking.

3) Stressed correction of power application - not enough of pre-load was occurring at the start of the stroke. The rod crept forward without a bend and the last part of the stroke had to produce all the energy in the speed-up and stop without the benefit of an early load to pull forth into it.

4) Talked about progressing thru three steps: (1) a low energy, high efficiency "clean" cast; then (2) smoothly increasing acceleration while staying clean; then (3) using an extended stroke with with increased acceleration.

Because the student was also a spey caster, he did not have much problem with line handling and his stroke was usually high and hard enough to propel a good loop well over 100' consistently. Even with the power application all at the end he rarely tailed because he was careful to apply the power below the tracking path of the line.

Two-handed overhead casting is first and foremost about a clean stroke, then it's about taking advantage of the power inherent in an IM8 11ft two-handed thunder stick to do more with said stroke. You can't use power to correct casting problems, but you can add a little bit of power to a clean stroke and get a lot in return.

Looking forward to meeting you guys on Sunday!
07-16-2004 06:47 PM
DickIvers Juro,

I am good for Sunday.

07-16-2004 07:19 AM
juro Hi Brendan,

Smitty called and we are working out dates that will work best for all. I will propose a couple of dates today and let him pick. This one is being picked up by Smitty so there is no charge to attend except a small organizing fee that pays for lunch (included) $20-25. It will be held in Kingston near the shop, you should call him for the other details. We will set the date today. There will also be a Spey casting class through them as well which is a paid class to be held on water. The two-handed class will be held on grass.

That is your schedule this weekend? I need to be back up north after the Big Brother Day so I hope to hook up with you and Dick Ivers sometime. Are you guys busy on Sunday afternoon / evening? Might have a third Atlantis owner coming as well. I would like to go through some new material with you to gather feedback.

Drop me a line if you can do something on Sunday, Dick that goes for you as well.
07-16-2004 07:06 AM
brendan Juro,

What is the date/details for the two-handed seminar at Rod Builders Workshop?
07-16-2004 06:19 AM
juro I typed a long reply here last night but checked for new messages and lost all the typing, my own fault. Anyway the crux of it was that working with any good distance casting video, like George Roberts video, would be a very good study toward getting the most out of the Atlantis. Most of the concepts are the same:
  • loading and unloading the rod
  • smooth acceleration along a very straight path
  • hard stop at the correct position
  • extending the length of the casting stroke for more distance
  • fault correction, etc

There are differences - line management, double hauling, and dealing with wind using a backhanded cast is very effective with a two-hander where pretty lame with a single. But the foundations are the same.

Anyway I have bribed my daughter to take some video for me early next week. It's gonna cost me!

Also, I am giving a two-handed seminar at Rod Builder's Workshop and will make sure that we get some footage.
07-16-2004 01:15 AM

...Juro you could take a few slo-mo vids and post them here or on the speypages.

Moose, I don't have an Atlantis but I will be putting some overhead casting video up on the speypages very soon...unless of course Juro beats me to it
07-15-2004 08:53 PM
Training sequence

I think you should approach a line making company and together with CND make a short video for sale that shows all of this. There's no substitute for SEEING it! As an Atlantis owner I'd be willing to pony up a few bucks to be able to get the most out of the surf tamer.
06-15-2004 11:58 PM
Originally posted by DickIvers

Live: Newton
Work: Yuck..bad word...retired
I will contact another neighbor of yours who recently bought the Surf-tamer whom I owe a lesson and arrange a primer session.
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