Fly Fishing Forum - Reply to Topic
The Quintessential Trout Trout angling is the core of flyfishing worldwide.

Thread: No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites Reply to Thread
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Home Waters
Your home waters
Current Favorite Fly
If you only had one... (change anytime)


Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options
Rate Thread
If you like, you can add a score for this thread.

Topic Review (Newest First)
11-27-2000 09:58 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Juro, I respect your opinion and passion on the subject. Wow. Glad I got your juices flowing. Maybe I'll learn something.
My concern is to not fall into the modern trap of judging past mistakes by todays newfound attitudes. We simply did not have the understanding of how ecosystems operated back then. The biological information was not there. The real question is: have we learned from that mistake? Are we still perpetuating this mistake with stocking programs? I don't know. Nevertheless, I doubt we can extricate the Browns from No. America at this point. I understand your anger, but what are the possible action items? Is there a way to battle WD? Maybe the board could throw some small contribution towards that end.
I'd rather fight strip malls from stealing the last bit of trout water left. The age of planned development must come. It's not about AL Gore and Suburban Sprawl, it's about saving the traditions of hunting and fishing from Trophy Homes and strip Malls, along with all the other benfits of open spaces.

11-27-2000 09:43 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Terry I hold firm to my opinion on browns - WD was recently found on the eastern edge of native steelhead country and if it prospers in the pacific northwest the effect may be unthinkable. I can't bear to imagine it really.

With all respect, I do not think the reasons were good - sportsman's indulgence is not a good reason by my way of thinking.

What really makes me nuclear is when people say "we will bio-engineer a resistant strain of trout". That's about as valid as timber being "a renewable resource". The physical trees may be regrown but old growth (native) trees in the PNW are 750-1000 yrs old or more, and we have never renewed but one of these treasures. In fact we are into second, third even forth growth forests which are too densely planted with one type of tree that causes explosions in timber eating insects (triggered by single species density) and ends up destroying entire forests in it's wake. The clearcutting methods destroy spawning habitat and increase siltation in river systems that can choke entire year classes of salmonids. Angling pressure takes its toll, commercial takes many times the toll - but extinction comes from things we do to habitat and things we do to mess with the natural balance of nature.

<font size="4">I COULD GO POSTAL!</font><!--4-->

There is and will never be another chance to have wild steelhead on this lonely blue planet in the cosmos. No factory trout could ever take it's place. This applies to all indigenous animals but few as emphatically as a warrior trout who ventures up to 7000 miles of open north pacific sea with orcas and sealions in pursuit to find it's natal stream and perpetuate it's legacy.

I am truly fearful of what WD will mean to native species in the west.
11-27-2000 08:16 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Juro say:
"<b>I am still burned up about the introduction of whirling disease to the US thru the brown trout, which were brought to the US from europe."</b>

Ease up there. This was presumably done in a time when we were doing a lot worse in our national ignorance like: stealing indian lands, building dams on salmon rivers, and we hadn't evan got to DDT yet. How about the Eugenics movement? The addition of German Browns was done for what was thought to be a good reason. It wasn't, in the long run, but we're stuck with it. If you want to be really pissed about something get mad about the loss of open spaces. Pretty soon there will be only state parks and Audobon land left, sans wild trout. South Eastern Ma. is under a total assault from development (as is all of Ma.) The american way is to have no regulation or intervention on property development, at the peril of wildlife. We are boobs.

Re: Searun anadromous fish on the No. Shore- wanna poke around the Parker?

11-25-2000 03:06 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Might be because of optimal temps; rainbows have a higher optimum temp preference than brookies, etc. Also could be hatchery brood. Wild rainbows fight like the dickens!

Per the tiger trout - good call, very likely. I remember catching them in Scargo in Dennis, always big. Some of the ones I caught were colored like lake trout - kind of gray/purple. The squiggly patterns (vermiculations) were distinct. The biologist in Westboro (when I used to work in Westboro) told me that because they waste zero effort in a spawn phase the triploids (sterile hybrids) grow much faster than true breeds.

My opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) is that we shouldn't play genesis games with fish. I am still burned up about the introduction of whirling disease to the US thru the brown trout, which were brought to the US from europe.

Even rainbows were indigenous to the western US and eastern Russia (Kamchatka,etc); since introduced worldwide. They have recently been re-classified as pacific salmon genus - which I feel is bull#### but I ain't no biologist.

Northeastern native brookies (which is actually a char) have since been brought to nearly every corner of the world too.

The distribution of lake trout (another char) is interesting - they are widely distributed but not by trucks. It is believed that they are a very old species that was widely distributed in pre-ice age waters, and unlike the newer trout species it survived the ice age. Other species have evolved since then, in fact salmonids evolve quickly thus the diversity in strains of the same species in different locales.

On a related note, I am getting curious about the coastal trout that are found along the north shore... stray atlantics? Native searun brookies? Stocked searun browns?

It would do my soul good to see a native searun brook trout!
11-23-2000 01:38 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Thanks, Jared.

What is it about New England trout that makes them so sluggish?? When I lived in Colorado, even the stockers in the lakes and reservoirs were feisty right up until the ice formed.

Whatever it was I caught last weekend <i>did</i> fight hard, but the 'bows have been real lumps.
11-22-2000 03:43 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Al --

Just read your post more carefully...was a female, around 15"...pretty
sluggish til the first time she saw the net...but it was great to feel
that magic throb of life at the end of the line...may have to carry me
through for a while.

11-17-2000 08:52 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites


I got basically the exact same information from my "Audubon Field Guide to New Engalnd", but this hunt&pecker was too lazy to type it in! Some notes. Diving on fish was an absolute give-away that it was an Osprey. This bird did not have a 5'6" windspan, so it was most likely Juvie, which means that its markings were not as distinct as an adult (Al's point). It was really cool watching this bird operate. As the sun roze over the eastern treeline, the shallow water on the west side of the pond was illuminated with sunlight. This sunlight, I believe, allowed the Osprey to see down into the water & dive on fish. IronMike says there are a lot of sunfish in there. We didn't see the bird take anything Large, so I assume he had a sunfish breakfast.

Peregrine Falcons are rare around here, but we do have one on base (Hanscom); it sometimes perches on top of the tall lights around our parking area & I've gotten a pretty close look.

It's cool to observe nature & this time of year we can even take a moment or two & discuss it some. Thanks.
11-17-2000 05:01 AM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Excellent article Sully about Falcons & OspreysI use to fish for trout in a private pond where the owners were concerned about the number of Ospreys raiding the pond. I have video tape I have taken of Ospreys diving and catching trout around 16 inches long. I have even seen Ospreys have trouble getting off the water with trout so large that they couldn't get off the water. The pond is now a RI hatchery for trout
11-16-2000 09:04 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Osprey [Pandion Haliaetus]

Identification: The Osprey is a fairly large hawk, 21-24 inches in length, with long, pointed wings spanning 54 to 72 inches. The head, throat and undersides are white; the back, nape, tail and back of the head are dark brown. A black eye stripe is located behind the eye. Look for the conspicuous crook in the wing and the black "wrist" mark in flight to differentiate this bird from the Bald Eagle.

Range & Habitat: The Osprey is found throughout the world except for the polar regions. In Florida, it is commonly sighted along the coast and near large lakes and rivers.

Reproduction: Osprey occasionally nest in large colonies. A bulky nest of sticks and trash is placed on the ground, on ledges, in trees or on telephone poles and other manmade structures. More building material is added to the nest each year it is in use. The nest resembles a Bald Eagle's nest, but is not usually as large. Incubation of the clutch, usually 3 white, buff or pink eggs, by both parents takes about 35 days. Young fly between 8 and 10 weeks of age.

Diet: The Osprey's diet consists almost exclusively of fish, but has been reported to include birds, turtles, snakes and small mammals.

Remarks: Osprey capture prey by striking the water after hovering 50-150 feet above the surface. This hawk has a reversible outer toe which can be rotated so that it extends to the rear of the foot. This facilitates fishing, as it permits the bird to use 2 strong hooked claws on either side of its prey. Unfortunately, Osprey have been persecuted by many fishermen who feared competition with these majestic birds. Hostile commercial fishermen have nailed fish to wooden boards and floated them in common Osprey areas, hoping to wipe out the bird's population. Such harassment is unwarranted because the Osprey eats mainly mullet and non-game fish of no commercial value. Eagles have also been known to harass Ospreys in flight, causing them to discard a recently captured fish. The eagle then pirates the fish and flies off.

Peregrine Falcon [Falco peregrinus]
Identification: The Peregrine Falcon is a crow-sized raptor, 15-21 inches long with a wingspread of about 40 inches. Sexes are similar, although the female is larger than the male. Adult birds are slate gray to blue gray on the back, with a dark cap over the head and a dark side burn extending through the eye. Young birds are dark brown above and heavily streaked below, with a facial pattern similar to adults. Peregrine Falcons have long, pointed wings, and in flight, give the impression of effortless power and speed.

Range & Habitat: This species is cosmopolitan, breeding on every continent except Antarctica. Florida has been an important wintering area for Peregrines. Florida's coastal areas provide optimum wintering habitat in regions where ducks, coots, gulls and herons are found in sloughs and scattered open ponds.

Reproduction: Peregrines usually prefer a cliff site for nesting, where a small depression is made for a nest. It will also nest in broken tops of tall trees and on window ledges of tall buildings. The female typically lays 2-4 cream or buff eggs in April, and does most of the incubation, typically a period of 33-35 days.

Diet: Peregrines are essentially bird hawks and will take most other smaller birds including waterfowl and songbirds. The hunting technique relies on spectacular "stoops," in which the birds fold their wings and go into a dive that ends with a midair strike. Depending on the size of the prey, they either grab hold with their talons, or knock the kill out of the air and descend to pluck and eat.

Remarks: The Peregrine Falcon was nearly exterminated from the use of DDT, a pesticide that causes eggshell thinning in many birds of prey. The species was listed as endangered in 1970 by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. It was subsequently given protection under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, which was the first law in the U.S. to recognize the importance of preserving wildlife and habitats.

Individual Peregrines have been known to live 15 years and have experienced a comeback throughout U.S. cities, where they build nests on numerous building ledges. In Latin, Peregrinus means "wandering." Appropriately, this bird travels great distances during migration and can be found in almost all parts of the world.

Peregrine Falcons have been used for the sport of falconry at least since the Middle Ages. In those days the type of falcon an Englishman carried on his wrist marked his rank-the Peregrine was carried by an earl. Falconry, also known as hawking, is the art of training falcons to capture wild game or fowl for the hunter.
11-16-2000 08:54 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

I haven't seen any Osprey on there nest on the Back River in the last few weeks.
But this past summer, when working in Boston on a concrete plant a falcon flew into the plant and roosted on the window sill for about an hour. I wish I had my camera with me.
11-16-2000 08:04 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

I thought by this time all ospreys had headed south for the winter. I do know a few birds, my heart got broken Tuesday. I had a House finch that would eat out of my hand, I was looking out the window watching the finch on the bird feeder, when in swooped a falcon and good bye finch, it didn't have a chance.
11-16-2000 06:13 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Greg -- That was an Osprey we saw nesting just down the river a bit at the cottage this year. They are buzzard-like in size, whereas a falcon (remember the Perrigrine that was roosting in downtown Boston a while back?) is more chicken sized.

Juro's right, the dead give away is the two tone underside. Belly white, outer wings black. Falcons are more mottled in color on top and have a solid white underside. My former boss could spot birds based on their wing silouhette (sp?), but I'm not even close to good enough for that.

Guys, this sounds like primo fishy ground. Jared, how nice is nice?
11-16-2000 05:25 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

I can't tell a mole from a wart either, but the Falcon is a smaller raptor with red eyes, makes it's way by eating other birds if I am not mistaken. Coloration white undersides with brown back, mottled transition between the two colors and large red eyes.

The humble Osprey makes it's way thru life by contorting it's body into a feet first dive and a see-food diet... sees food, etc. Much larger than a falcon, pale white underside with gray black back, more wing than body in overall proportions.

They all have similar characteristics but the eagle has the most impressive shape and is not just a bird, it's an inspiration - whether seen in the Thompson River Valley, the Olympic Peninsula, Alaska - or wherever. I have enjoyed seeing every eagle I've set my eyes on over the years.

Number one pickup line at a bird-watcher's convention...

<a href="">Gotta email me for this one I'm afraid</a><!--email-->
11-16-2000 04:07 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

Yes, But can't two birds have very different diets & still come from the same family of birds? I guess, alls I'm sayin is, Ospreys look a lot like Falcons, no?
11-16-2000 01:56 PM
RE:No coffee, but a rainbow at Whites

That's a great area to fish - I've caught some very large bass in that "lagoon" as well, on a sunfish pattern - when I wasn't catching sunfish on it (carnivorous little devils).

Greg - if it was catching fish, it was likely an Osprey (aka "fish hawk"). Falcon's usually feed on mice, birds and reptiles and hunt over land.
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.

vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright (All Rights Reserved)