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Art of Casting Analysis, refinement of the cast

Thread: Fixing Tailing Loops Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-27-2004 12:18 PM
Klem
Follow through

Just change the name "drift" up front to "follow through", then everyone will be on the same page. Good casting. Klem
07-27-2004 07:25 AM
LabanTayo I get my tails while false casting. I never thought of drifting up front. I will definetely try that. Thanks for the tips.
07-23-2004 04:47 PM
Klem
Backcast tailing loop

Laban,
Are you having tailing loops on your backcast when you are false casting or on the intial pick-up backcast? Both present a slight different move with the rod. If on the intial pick-up backcast, make sure there is a definite rod-tip pick-up (breaking the water tension with the line) to around 10:30ish before you start the power phase of the cast. This movement gets your rod tip to the proper plane for a good straight line tip path. If your are getting tailing loops during false casting, then after the forwards stop, reach forward (call follow through) a little bit. This forwards reach (follow through) is like drift on backcast. This move is without power and is repositioning the rod slighlty forward. The follow through allows you more territory and you will gain better line control and line speed. Klem
07-23-2004 05:50 AM
juro Thanks for the reply.

In a conversation with Tim Rajeff, he mentioned that (and forgive me if I mis-quote) line speed as he defines it is the velocity at which the upper half of the loop travels as a straight and taut "javelin-like" unit through the air. If this component of the cast is wiggly, flying upward, downward, sideways, etc - then no matter how fast the rod is moving it will lack speed over the course of the cast.

This way of looking at the loop has dramatically improved my thinking. I had worked my way to a very tight lower half of loop with a spey cast, and although both halves were tight with the single hander (probably more due to double hauling) there was much room for refinement. I have spent many hours tuning my stroke to produce the most efficient 'javelin' speed and shape I can. I have not perfected it yet but can produce the shape I want with increasing regularity each time out. Like yourself it has given me a basis for refinement and pursuit of a better cast.

Per the tailing loop, it sounds like you have already diagnosed the "shocking" of the stroke due to a late start. There is also the possibility that an upward drift is starting early on the other end, pulling the direction of the lower half of the loop upward while the upper half continues in it's original path - a collision course.

Bruce Richard's writings have also been of great influence to my practice regimen. He writes "Everything about the loop size and shape is determined by the path the rod tip takes while accelerating the line, and what it does during and after deceleration. Where the top leg of the loop is, and the top leg shape (curved up, straight, curved down, curved to the side) is determined by the path the tip of the rod takes while acclerating the line. The path the rod tip takes during the deceleration determines the shape of the "point" of the loop. What position the rod tip holds after the loop has been formed determines where the bottom leg of the loop will be.

If the tip path is upward through the acceleration, the top leg will be high, if the path through the deceleration is a rather broad curve forward, ending low, the loop "point" will be very round, if the tip ends up low after the deleceration that will direct the bottom leg low, resulting in a typical big round loop.
"

Therefore in a tailing loop scenario, quite often the path of acceleration occurs in one vector, while the path of the rod tip during deceleration and position it holds after effects another. Just a thought, and interesting to think about. It might help you to try a slower, smoother acceleration going back - minding especially the path that the line accelerates on it's way to the start of the drift. Combined with starting the backcast just before your forward cast 'kicks' over you should be good to go!

Congrats on your progress!
07-22-2004 10:34 PM
LabanTayo juro,
thanks for the comment. since i can throw better loops (forward cast), i can get more speed with hauling and not having to worry about throwing a big open loop, which would slow me down. my tails on the backcast are because i am waiting to long to start my backcast and the line flips under like a tuck cast. since i am gaining speed, my timing is off on starting the backcast. forward cast = no tails. back cast = tails. i've been working on my forecast so hard, i let my backcast kinda go to crap. now i can work on it while still getting a good forecast. oh, and did i mention that drifting made wonders of how i can 'feel' the load and getting a good snap. i have been trying to fix every aspect of my casting all at once. not a good idea. too much to think about at once. so, i started over from the beginning and correcting one fault at a time. when i feel comfortable enough, i'll post video of my progress. once i get this down with a single hand rod, i'll start getting into spey casting. i've been doing some spey stuff on a single hand rod and its fun as hell. granted i dont have casting distance, a small river is good enough for a 9 ft. rod.
07-22-2004 10:12 PM
juro LabanTayo -

Great reading about your progress!

Just curious, when you say you have doubled your line speed, what exactly has gotten faster? I am curious because the term "line speed" seems to have several definitions, all valid.

Also, what is causing the tail in your backcast?
07-22-2004 12:26 PM
LabanTayo Since my last post, I've worked on tails and almost eliminated them with everyone's help/advice. Thanks to Dana for the videos. I got to see exactly what I was doing wrong from seeing him make tails. I started to apply drifting and voila!!! my tails were gone. I snap better at the end of my forcast with a drift. I have doubled my line speed and now have a problem with a tail on my backcast. jeez, I fix one problem and inherit another. I know whats going wrong, just need to work on it.
I test drove a Sage XP 490-4 last weekend and had a blast. I felt confident enough to cast it 60-70 ft without effort. The XP actually helped me 'feel' my casting and adjust it on the spot. Wonderful rod. I had posted in another thread about getting an XP and now I need to start saving for it.
That was one of the rare rods that when a picked it up to start playing with, I felt nothing but line the whole time. My TiCR 8 wt I'm still struggling to feel the line, not the rod, but I'm getting better at feeling it.
07-16-2004 09:40 AM
LabanTayo I'm glad the past few posts were made. I am thinking of upgrading my rods and was leaning towards the TFO stuff. What are your thoughts on TFO. To me right now, its a price issue. My rods to upgrade are 3, 4 and 6 weights, all at 9 ft. I already own a TFO TiCR 8 wt. I really like it, but still getting used to the faster action, hence the tailing loop problem.
07-15-2004 08:20 PM
juro I was hired recently by a gentleman who had a mail order single-handed striper rod from a big catalog company. Since most of these rods are made by major rod makers and re-branded, I assumed it would be fine. Watching the casting trouble through the morning I was tempted me to ask to try the rod... let's just say not all rods are created equal and the rod was definitely making his day more miserable than it needed to be.

The 'flex profile' through the length of the rod was not at all smooth and parts of the rod (as the energy traveled through it) felt hard where the caster would expect a little sweetness for single hand rod. This made the hand and arm work very hard, and the rod did little but get in the way of the arm trying to move line around where a good rod generates it's own momentum to aid the cast.

It's true, not all rods are created equal. Nor are lines, leaders and flies for that matter. No wonder we talk about this stuff so much to keep it all sorted out
07-14-2004 02:52 PM
t_richerzhagen
Cheaper rods

Supposedly, most rods are pretty good. I was trying to help a cousin with his casting on a 6 wt trout rod. It was miserable and very difficult to use compared to my two Sage rods (RPL and SP). So, I think rods can make a big difference.
07-12-2004 03:15 PM
Skilly
Higher end rod

I am not sure if the higher end rods will keep more line in the air.

For my single hand rods I only bought G Loomis and Sage. I never had a cheaper rod to compare them with. The Lommis were the old IMX Of which I still have the 10 ft 3 weight. The GLX was in the 10 ft 8 weight. For Sage I had the 10 ft 6 weight RPL . All of these were great casting rods. Arthritis mandated I quit using the single hand rods in anything over a 4 weight. So my son now has the 10-8 and I sold the 6100 on ebay.

I know the longer rod will keep more line in the air. I always preferred the 10 ft rods, because you are getting a longer stroke.

For me now other than the 3 weight, I will be using all Spey rods. They are much easier on the arthritis.


Skilly
07-12-2004 02:43 PM
LabanTayo Skilly,
good advice about the limitations of your combo. Do you think that higher end rods will handle more line efficiantly?
07-12-2004 10:05 AM
Skilly
tailing loops

Another remedy is put less line in the air and shoot more line. This is one problem I had to overcome trying to get that last foot of line out when Steelheading.

There is a point for each rod line combo that when exceeded will cause tailing loops. Find this spot with your combo, shorten the line just a little and you will find a great deal of your tailing loops are gone.

Also turn so you can watch your back cast .

Skilly
07-11-2004 08:30 PM
Loopy Thanks for the videos. They are indeed excellent and instructive. I think I have every cst throwing a tailing loop imprinted on my muscle memory, now how to forget them. I think the difference between a good cast and one of the myriad different ways of throwing a tailing loop is relatively subtle. I bought a switch rod and can cast some really impressive loops with it.
07-06-2004 09:46 AM
LabanTayo Dana,
Thank you so much for the videos. They help alot in seeing what I'm doing wrong.
I am "applying the power too early". I noticed that when i drift, my stroke gets smoother. Fly casting is harder than one would think. I am excited to finally get somewhere with my corrections. I will be taking video of myself, to see where some more faults are. You guys one this forum are great. Thanks for all the help.
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