Its Official [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Its Official


pmflyfisher
02-10-2003, 03:32 PM
fyi

Fish do not feel pain, I knew in 47 years of fishing I have never seen a fish cry


http://www.seafood.com/news/current/87356.html

removed_by_request
02-10-2003, 04:21 PM
Very insightful, they probably don't think either.

pmflyfisher
02-10-2003, 05:02 PM
They do think, even with their pea sized brain, enough to avoid our flies a high percentage of the times they encounter them.

Pm Out

willmullis
02-10-2003, 05:33 PM
Man that's hard to believe. I would think that all living creatures could feel pain. Pain is what keeps us from doing a lot of things that could hurt us.

removed_by_request
02-10-2003, 07:38 PM
Fish react out of instinct not thought like we do. If they did you were never catch a fish that has been released.

BobK
02-10-2003, 09:09 PM
If they REALLY had thought, and senses to match (all part of the brain), we'd NEVER catch one!

BobK

pmflyfisher
02-10-2003, 09:15 PM
Maybe we catch the illiterate ones only !

Something else to think about.

PM Out

flytyer
02-11-2003, 12:13 AM
Pmflyfisher,

I saw this too. I'll bet that the PETA folks will ignore it or find fault with it anyway. Some peoplel just do not want to accept the truth, even when as my grandfather liked to say, "It hits them upside the head."

pmflyfisher
02-11-2003, 08:29 AM
Flytyer,

Yep your right on. PETA people are another world along with their hollywood star funding resource.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-11-2003, 11:39 AM
Spare us with PETA, that is a can of worms that should not be opened.

pmflyfisher
02-11-2003, 12:20 PM
That was another of the dreaded threads last winter.

I won't be going there, some one else will have to do it.

But if if P. Anderson images come up I might have some interest.

:devil:

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-11-2003, 01:23 PM
Ever hear the old phrase "Let sleeping dogs lie"?

In many of those threads it may be a good(make that great) idea.

cohocola
03-08-2003, 03:27 AM
I believe that fish can, and do think...

Trout are selective...

If it was to react out of instinct alone, then any mayfly shaped fly would be consumed.

Trout do key in on color and size, passing by other hatches that do not fit within the ranges that they set.

This requires thought to process the key factors of the selectiveness of the hatch.

If it is instinct, then they would need to have a larger brain to house all of the "Instincts" for every hatch in their local area.

flyfisha1
03-08-2003, 07:03 AM
The study presents information that, to me as a Marine Scientist who has spent years studying actual fish behavior and physiology both in school and in a work setting, as well as the bottom of beer bottles, is absurd. It's very difficult, i.e. impossible, to conclude that fish don't feel fear based upon some limited studies, whether or not this guy has been involved with related research for 30 years. I could go into tremendous detail and relate literally dozens of stories and observations that lead me to believe that fish do indeed feel fear, but why bother. The pain issue may be just as hard to nail down.
Oh, and as for those twits over at PETA... they can take their ideas and... :tsk_tsk:

pmflyfisher
03-08-2003, 07:48 PM
Whether they do or not, we will never really know, I am just glad they do not cry.:D

PM Out

removed_by_request
03-09-2003, 10:58 PM
Fish do not think, if they did they would communicate with each other and it would be impossible to catch one.

If they had thought wouldn't they think "hmmm look at that morsel of food coming down with a line on it. think I'll eat it".

They react out of a survival instinct, basic need to survive pure and simple.

Rob Estlund
05-16-2003, 12:37 PM
This is nonsense. I've seen this topic on all of the fishing bulletin boards lately. I agree with MJYP that this is an overdiscussed topic. However, I have not yet heard the argument in my next paragraph...

Who the heck cares if fish feel pain? Personally I'll still keep fishing even if they do feel pain. I have pain in my everyday life and I'm still OK. I've hooked myself before (with a barbless hook, just like the ones I occasionally put in fish) and it barely hurt. Not to mention the pain involved when migrating fish repeatedly bang themselves against fish ladders and waterfalls or the pain of fish sparring or the pain of being swiped at by a sea lion or bear. Lets not forget the pain of having poor water quality or too warm/too cold water, etc. How about the pain of swimming hundreds of miles upstream? Talk about lactic acid build up. I wonder if they drink Gatorade to prevent cramps.

I once hit my hammer with a thumb. (humor) It really hurt. I'm a mammal and therefore a member of the animal kingdom. Should these animal rights activists put out a ban on hammers or hammering?

I'm not very religious, but the bible says (loosely quoted from my poor memory) "let them have dominion over the fish and animals".

So if you're reading this and you're one of those bunny hugging, bambi worshiping, kumbaya singing, bong toting, group hugging, anti-gun, anti-fishing, anti-hunting, anti-god, anti-anything moroons, please just screw off. Screw off. There... I said it.

I like the sarcasm in The Simpsons where one of the characters called himself a 5th level vegan -- He won't eat anything that casts a shadow. Ha! Those writers crack me up!

P.S. I recall from Gary Borger's book, "Presentations" something to the effect of "trout are selective not because they are smart, but because they are too stupid to know any better". They continue to eat only size 18 baetis during a baetis hatch because they just got done eating 200 size 18 baetis. They don't know that the occasional size 12 march brown is even edible. So I don't buy the arguement that because trout are selective, they must be smart enough to feel pain. I highly doubt they do, but who really cares!?!

flyfisha1
05-16-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by mjyp
Fish do not think, if they did they would communicate with each other and it would be impossible to catch one.

If they had thought wouldn't they think "hmmm look at that morsel of food coming down with a line on it. think I'll eat it".

They react out of a survival instinct, basic need to survive pure and simple.

I must have missed this; it's utter baloney, and as someone who studied the behavior, ecology, and physiology of fishes extensively in college, got a degree in marine science, and spends the better part of everyday observing fish of all types in captivity, I feel quite qualified to say so. Yes, fish do think, and I hate to tell you, but many of them do communicate with each other. You may have your own definitions of what constitutes thinking, and I have mine. Good enough. However many fish are at the point of using rocks as tools for breaking the shells of various food items... is this instinctual? Probably to an extent, because I, and plenty of others, have observed captive-raised fish that are far-removed from the wild populations exhibit this behavior. Is this a "survival tool"? No, because not all members of the species, or indeed from the same spawning, learn this behavior. However you want to qualify your definition of thinking, that's up to you.

pmflyfisher
05-16-2003, 02:10 PM
Some do communicate I think particularly in the fresh water trout and bass species from my experience.

They also do some level of thinking as they they discrimminate our flys, bait, lure, etc....

All I know is if I could think like a fish I would surely hook and catch more of them !

:chuckle: :chuckle:

PM Out

removed_by_request
05-16-2003, 02:23 PM
Yeah right they think, and speakwith each other. They use sign langauge.

If they were so bloody smart explain why they would take a pink worm floating down the stream. They must see tons of them every day.

They react out of instinct, the need to survive. Bass herding shad to feed is not thinking. Its called feeding.

If they had intelligence and communicated only one C&R fish would have fallen prey to a hook. He would have told the rest and they would have used the internet to e-mail each other.

How can you as ethical anglers go out and hunt for a thinking creature? Perhaps bigfoot talks to the fish too, right before he eats them.

flyfisha1
05-16-2003, 02:57 PM
Dude, communication is not just speaking and sign language, though if you consider the COLOR CHANGES that fish flash to signal each other as sign language that's okay. Oh, and by the way, many of them communicate with noise, damselfishes being one of them, or by electrical impulse and field recognition. Phermomones... shall we get into that? You call it instinct, I don't disagree with some of that, however I also know that I haven't spent the last 20+ years of my life imagining that the fish I catch and those I observe in their natural environments and in captivity are simply acting on insticnct and aren't capable of sentient thought. Also, let me be the first to say that just because some scientist somewhere says that fish don't think, I have to believe it. I spend enough time asking the question "Why" when presented with such "fact".

Fish take the worm because it resembles food, is presented in an acceptable fashion, and have no reason to think otherwise at the moment of striking. Would you eat something again that had once made you ill, or would you pass it by? Do you consider rationalization to be thought or instinct?

I think you're taking this way too far, and I'm not afraid to say it. What does bigfoot have to do with this? I "hunt" fish because I enjoy it. I don't think I need to justify it to anyone but me. And for the record, fish think.

removed_by_request
05-16-2003, 03:33 PM
Sarcasm dude pure and simple.

flyfisha1
05-16-2003, 03:38 PM
Okay, you got me... :p
... you can tell what I think of some of my "fellow" scientists' ideas...