Old Air Warriors Are Good To Go [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Old Air Warriors Are Good To Go


pmflyfisher
02-09-2003, 11:06 PM
As our U.S and UK forces deploy for the Middle East preparing for the apparent needed invasion and removal of the Irag regime and potential WMD, our old USAF warriors again will play an integral part in the operations.

B-52 - Big Ugly Ft Fellow (BUFF) is a marvel of engineering. See link below. I remember working on a few of them in 1969 and thinking this plane is old, probably will be retired in the next 5 years when the B-1 is ready. Wrong, look who is still flying.

http://www.fastcompany.com/online/54/B52.html

C-141 - Starlifter - air cargo transport which was the state of the art in the 1960s when it was released to the USAF. I worked on them for 3 years. She is still flying and is quite another well engineered plane.

C-130 - Hercules - a great short range cargo plane that can land on short runways in all types of terrain and conditions. Also started flying in the 1960s. Now they use these also as the gun ships which are deadly as you have seen on the news.

Our US activated military reserves are up to 125K now and increased 16K just in the last week. Based upon the current situation it looks like this is going to happen barring a major diplomatic break thru as one Israel General said " It is hard to stop the elephants when they start to run".

God speed and may god protect our US, UK, and other nation's forces joining into the coalition.

Below is a great short narrative which Fred Evans sent me a couple of weeks ago which I have kept. It has some great thoughts for all of us to remember when times like this place our freedoms at risk and our soldiers in harms way.

God bless america and all soldiers who are involved in our defense.

Hal

Subject: Soldiers gave us our freedom!!!!!!!!!

I want you to close your eyes and picture in your mind the soldier at Valley Forge, as he holds his musket in his bloody hands.

He stands barefoot in the snow, starved from lack of food, wounded from months of battle and emotionally scarred from the eternity away from his family surrounded by nothing but death and carnage of war.

He stands tough, with fire in his eyes and victory on his breath.

He looks at us now in anger and disgust and tells us this...

I gave you a birthright of freedom born in the Constitution and now your children graduate too illiterate to read it. I fought in the snow barefoot to give you the freedom to vote and you stay at home because it rains.

I left my family destitute to give you the freedom of speech and you remain silent on critical issues, because it might be bad for business.

I orphaned my children to give you a government to serve you and it has stolen democracy from the people.

It's the soldier not the reporter who gives you the freedom of the press.

It's the soldier not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech.

It's the soldier not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag!!!

"Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need.

Amen."

Prayer Wheel:

When you receive this, please stop for a moment and say a prayer for our U.S. ground troops in Afghanistan, and the ones facing deployment to Iraq at this very moment - AND all over this world.

There is nothing attached.... This can be very powerful.... Just send this to all the people in your address book. Do not stop the wheel, please....

Of all the gifts you could give a US Soldier, Prayer is the very best
one.....

removed_by_request
02-10-2003, 04:38 AM
The b52 only works so well because we use it against countries who are not as technically as we are. If it were to be used against us there would be none left.

Probably should create a b52 pattern to honor it.

BobK
02-10-2003, 08:02 AM
Hey, Hal,

Why not re-up???? (Of course, you couldn't bring your hats along to wear!)

Of course, the pay scale change would be tough, but then again, there are allotments so your family is taken care of.

Maybe now, with college training, you could go to OCS, too!

Just think, where else can you get "three slops and a flop", and get paid, too!

(at times, I, too, have thought about it, and said, "I should have stayed in the Marines. All you had to worry about was someone taking a shot at you once in a while...., BUT YOU COULD SHOOT BACK!")

And, don't brag about "tired iron". We should have replaced 'em years ago. If congress didn't forget that its only constitutional job is to "provide for the national defense" and quit "social engineering", we would have.

C'mon - us ol' has-beens would have a tough time marching 20 miles, running another 5, and still be in shape to fight all day. I think the best thing we can do is support our troops, wish 'em well, help 'em in any way we can, and pray it's fast and surgical.

BobK

pmflyfisher
02-10-2003, 09:44 AM
"Our war against terror is a contest of will in which perseverance is power. In the ruins of two towers, at the western wall of the Pentagon, on a field in Pennsylvania, this nation made a pledge, and we renew that pledge tonight: Whatever the duration of this struggle, and whatever the difficulties, we will not permit the triumph of violence in the affairs of men -- free people will set the course of history."

George W. Bush

State of the Union Address - 2003


Proud to be an american, I wish I could reenlist at times like this.

PM Out

P.S. My avatar will have the Stars & Stripes on it tonight, if some one wants to take my steelhead image go right ahead, there are more important things to me at times like this.

removed_by_request
02-10-2003, 10:17 AM
Meanwhile our economy falters. G. Bush has many battles to fight. Seems like he is ignoring the big one at home.

Terror and fear strikes in many ways my man.

Hopefully this will not turn into a political dogfight like our last venture into Iraq, or Viet Nam.

The last Iraq venture probably cost us the best General we had in years Norman S.

Hopefully our men will return safe and provide us with a saner world.

pmflyfisher
02-10-2003, 03:19 PM
Avatar updated, I like it !! :D

Lets see who takes the steelhead image avatar now.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-10-2003, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the update.

pmflyfisher
02-11-2003, 02:07 PM
Talked to my army buddy a military an INTEL officer for 20 years in actives and reserves.

Its going to be quickand efficient should we have to pull the trigger again.

I am still praying for it not to happen though.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-11-2003, 02:45 PM
I would not count on it.

If those boys have nerve agents etc. they will use them. If that happens many innocents will perish.

sinktip
02-11-2003, 08:29 PM
PM,

While I will be the first to support our troops once the order is given, I am holding my breath that somehow cooler heads will prevail and convince GW that this is a unwise war and one that is not in our best long-term interests.

As to quick and efficient, that might happen as it did in '56 with Arbenz and look how that all played out. Or it may play out as did the quick and efficient little thing we called Viet Nam. Either way, I fear the price paid will be dear if not in the short term, for certain in the long.

"It is good that war is so horrible, lest we grow to like it too much" -- Robert E. Lee

sinktip

BobK
02-11-2003, 09:09 PM
Negative on your last, man!
(Translation: No! to your last transmission.)

If you want to sit by while people plan your destruction, that's fine. I personally wish I was still young enough to join the dedicated young Marines, and would, if they would let me.

The military gets damn little support these days, and we didn't back when I was a hard-charging 18 year old Marine sergeant in a place called Korea, but WE FORCED CHINA TO A DRAW! And we would have gone all the way, if Uncle Harry had any testosterone!

So sit back and relax - Young KIDS are protecting your fat backside!

If you and Jimmy Carter had your way, we would be speaking either Russian, Chinese or Arabic!

BobK

removed_by_request
02-11-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by sinktip
PM,


"It is good that war is so horrible, lest we grow to like it too much" -- Robert E. Lee

sinktip
Hal,

Take note that is a quote worth mentioning.

Bob,

I think you are missing the point, lets not have war for war's sake but for freedoms sake.

Don't ever forget who let this happen. it wa Georgie boy's daddy who let madman saddam off the hook. It was not Carter or Clinton, it was George. His ignorant actions cost us one of the best modern day generals, and I do not mean Powell. He is a bloody politician.

It was ronny who supplied Osama with weapons to use against the USSR, which made him a powerful man. Now all those stupid nistakes have come back to bite us in the arse.

I am neither Rep. or Dem so please do not lump me in with a political party. I am a realist.

BobK
02-11-2003, 10:34 PM
mjyp -

Right now, we are fighting terrorism. With Usama's little speech today on Al Jazeer network, (Not "Georgie Jr."), the tie-in is made.

Sorry if I stepped on your sensibilities. But there is a time to act.

I am not political, either. It's just the victories of the young kids - many of whom did not come back, or worse... (e.g. don't ask me about "basket cases" - I can tell you first hand) - are too often taken away by the "old men - the politicians". Been there- done that. Then came 'nam - and more of the same - fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

I am furious and still frustrated by that, even if I am now an "old man".

BobK

sinktip
02-12-2003, 12:21 AM
BobK,

I mean no disrespect to this countries fighting forces. As I stated, once the tracers fly, we need to support them without division.

I know a little about the intel community and destabilization techniques. I also know more than a little about terrorism and media manipulation. To my satisfaction, the administration has not made the case linking Iraq and Al Queda.

Rash action while it might make GW feel good and avenge the pride of his father, will have long term negative results. As Admiral Yamamoto said after Pearl Harbor, "I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant". If we move alone against Iraq, that giant will be coming for us.

And just so you know, I didn't vote for Carter or Clinton. And I also wasn't aware that being multi-lingual was a bad thing. :cool:

Keeping my fingers crossed ther is still time to stem the tide.

OC
02-12-2003, 09:57 AM
Maybe all us that are over 50 should go fight wars instead of the planets precious youth.

Just food for thought but some may be way too patriotic to ever understand.

www.msnbc.com/news/871193.asp

An article on "Anti- Americanism rising".

moosestang
02-12-2003, 01:51 PM
Well I told myself that I wouldn't get involved in this thread yet here I am.

I think a few things should get cleared up
1.The U.S. is fighting a war on terrorism and under that umbrella we have enough justification to attack a country that sponsors terrorist acts let alone carries them out on their own population.(i.e.) Nerve agents on the kurds(civilians)as well as giving money to suicide bombers who randomly kill civilians in Isreal(there are more examples but I don't want make this too long and lose my audience)
2.This war is not about oil, even though the europeans want it to be
3.This war is not about weapons of mass destruction,most of Iraq's neighbors have these weapons either supplied by us or the soviets. But it is the excuse our government is using.
4.This, and all wars are an extention of politics (I don't like what you are doing,stop it and I will give you a cookie or I don't like what you are doing, stop it or you will get a spanking)
5.There is no language in the arab world for DIPLOMACY with infedels (that means anyone that is not islamic)therefore force may be the only option.
6.Iraq is not any kind of giant sleeping or otherwise

On a lighter note I don't care how old the BUFF is, after seeing and feeling it in action I for one am glad it is still flying

sinktip
02-12-2003, 03:12 PM
Points of clarification --

The U.S. is fighting a war on terrorism and under that umbrella we have enough justification to attack a country that sponsors terrorist acts let alone carries them out on their own population.

For the most part I agree with the first part although I do not believe Iraq meets the definition of sponsoring terrorist acts if you are referring to Al Queda. Note that bin Laden directed near as much venom at Husein as he had at the US. We are simply the greater devil in his mind.

By definition, acts carried out on a countries own population are not terrorist in nature, no matter the brutality involved.

This war is not about weapons of mass destruction,most of Iraq's neighbors have these weapons either supplied by us or the soviets. But it is the excuse our government is using.

A agree with this assessment. Hence the hypocritical nature of this military action. If it is not about this then, the question must be asked, what is it about?

There is no language in the arab world for DIPLOMACY with infedels (that means anyone that is not islamic)therefore force may be the only option.

"Infidels" I believe only refers to those people not of the book. While in the last hundred years this has commonly referred to Christians and Jews, traditionally these populations were both people of the book and thus not infidels.

An important thing that seems to be lacking in discussions of this crisis is the fact that Iraq is largely a secular state. It is for this reason that it is hated by bin Laden. Its population is largley Muslim and of the Sunni sect. This can be contrasted with say Iran which is non-secular and has a population predominantly comprised of Muslim's following the Shiite branch.

Iraq is not any kind of giant sleeping or otherwise

I agree with this. In fact, barring the widespread use of chemical and biological weapons (or detonation of a nuclear device should that option be available), there is little reason to believe that the initial military results and US casualties will be much diff. than Desert Storm. My opinion is that even bin Laden's call for martyrdom actions will likely yield relatively few recruits among the Iraqi people. The danger, and the sleeping giant I referred to earlier, comes from extremists; both Arab and non-Arab, outside Iraq.

My advice is that unless the US is willing to accept the type of domestic casualties that Isreal faces on a weekly basis, it is best advised to pursue a diplomatic solution.

moosestang
02-12-2003, 03:55 PM
Oh goody a real discussion

1.There are numerous accounts of Iraq funding Various terrorist organizations such as hammas, islamic jihad, and the plo(before they were a government) you would agree that these are terrorists wouldn't you

2.I will save this for last

3.As for being infedels, your definition in theory is correct but in practice could not be farther from the mark and as for Iraq having a secular government please do not make the mistake of judging their mindset by our standards secular only extends so far and an islamic person is islamic first and Iraqi or Saudi or Jordanian a distant second. The majority is sunni as you say but so was bin laden (I have spent a bit of time in the middle east which leads me to this conclusion)

4.We are pursuing a diplomatic course. War is an extention of diplomacy not an end of it

5. Back to number 2 I think we are going because we found a visible enemy that most americans can identify as being bad and we are going to pummel Iraq so that we can feel better about ourselves.of course the added benefit is that we get to tick off the russians(we will be in striking distance to their soft underbelly) and the french(always a good idea)and the germans(you think our gas prices are high theirs are through the roof)


Asfor attacks by terrorists here in the U.S. it takes money to do and if we take away the money it makes it harder

I await your response

sinktip
02-12-2003, 04:55 PM
Got a meeting at 2:00 so I will try to be brief.

1) The only one I might quibble on is the PLO but that would depend on semantics and timing. My question on all these is when was this funding taking place? Current? If so, I concede the point. I would ask though why the hell not Yemen, the Saudi's, and on and on....


3) Valid point on bin Laden but in many ways he is an exception. He does have a reason to make this a US vs. Islam battle. Saddam is not above trying to play that card but is limited based on past practices. If you will remember, bin Laden's gripe witht eh US was not the invasion of Iraq, it was the stationing of US troops in Saudi.

4) Agreed, but since you claim no diplomacy for the infidel, I trust they will not fight back. Sorry, could resist that one.

5)Agreed 100% although for the life of me, can't figure out why we want to piss off Russia and Germany. Who cares about France.

Money -- an Iraq invasion will Increase funding to terrorist groups.

moosestang
02-13-2003, 01:25 PM
1.The funding and weapons are current as are the training facilities.

3.Wellllll ok that is his latest gripe with the great satan

4.They fought back last time???????

5.We piss off russia to remind them that they are no longer a superpower and we are,(during the cold war we had to inform the soviets of any major troop movements near their country months in advance) and we piss off germany to remind them how much they still owe us and we piss off the rest to keep them off balance as to our intentions(the rest of the world still sees us as gun toting barbarians-which I have no problem with)as for france I for one will take any opportunity to piss them off

money-ok I oversimplified, if you take away the paymasters and the major players the funding dries up and the attacks become fewer since it takes alot of money to house, feed, arm, and train groups of people to carry out terrorist activities halfway around the world while hiding from spy sats, recon planes, and all the other tracking devices not to mention needing a safe haven to retreat to when done where we cannot get to them

there is an old saying-cut off the head and the body will follow

pmflyfisher
02-14-2003, 10:16 AM
fyi

Had a corporate "SPECIAL OPS" exigenic situation which they assigned the "Corporate Marines" to take the beach heads the last few days, will be back to forumn soon and this thread.

Several members have PMd or emailed me inquiring if I am okay,
I can assure you I am, and will be back to complete "Fly Fishing Operational Readiness" very soon. "Good to Go" as we said in the USAF when a bird was ready to fly.

See link on the price of freedom

http://www.military.com/NewsContent?file=FL_freedom_021403

Later

PM Out

P.S. Also been reading the print out of the "I am in Love" thread and deciding next action steps. ;) ;)

fredaevans
02-14-2003, 12:06 PM
I think you should consult a good Atty. 'Defimation of Char.,' and all that. :D

fae

Good part is you now know how many people really care and are paying attention to changes on the Board.
:smokin:

sinktip
02-14-2003, 06:03 PM
Moosetang,

It appears that you and I agree on most of the issues this thread has explored. I would hope you would agree with me though that putting our allies in their place is not worth one drop of American serviceman or woman's blood. If that is why we are rushing towards war, shame on the administration.

Duggan

BobK
02-14-2003, 10:55 PM
The only REAL allies we have are Great Britain and Australia.

We have stood together for over 100 years, and supported each other in WWI and II, Korea (yeah, I remember them both being there, and the Turks, as well), and Desert Storm. Not sure about 'nam, but I'm pretty sure they were there, too.

The UN is and has been an irrelevant farce and continues to go downhill. A bunch of noncontributors, deadbeats and obstructionists living a lifestyle here many times better than most of their own people, and trying to act important. And who did they put "in charge of disarmament" now? Iraq. What a laugh. This is as bad of the League of Nations, which was also a pacifist's "wet dream" and also fell apart. Saturday Night's parody about them was right on the mark.

Best thing we could do is kick 'em all out, and convert the building to a World Trade Center II memorial.

Everyone seems to forget that WE were attacked on 9/11.

Just a little more fuel to the fire.

BobK

pmflyfisher
02-15-2003, 04:02 PM
Wow, I was just trying to show some support for our military, should we have to go to war did not mean to kick off a full complex political debate. Took off 3 days from forumn due to work and head cold and that looks like where we are in this thread.

It is a complex situation for sure, one with out a clear correct course of action. But I can assure you, when one of our allies that are now backing down, have their 9/11 they will be feeling differently and looking for U.S. protection.

Iraq has had 12 years to comply to the UN and has not. Their people are oppressed, links to Al Queda (sp) and other terrrorist groups are probably true. Even if they do not have WMD now, they are surely close to it.

Hopefully a peaceful regime change and solution will occur but it does not look like that is probable of occuring knowing Saddam's history.

Given the mid east's history and its high concentration of terrorist groups, it is just a matter of time before another 9/11 occurs and we have to go in and take care of Irag, Iran, or some other rogue country.

I also think our allies which are now backing down, France, Germany, Russia, etc know that they will become just as big of a terrorist target as the U.S. if they join in the Iraq attack by the many terrrist groups through out the mid east. It is much easier for the terrorists to access these countries than the U.S. and commit terrorist acts just from a physical proximity perspective.

Has any one been in Germany, UK, or other European countries lately ? I have. There are large mid east and muslin communities in all of these countries. Probably easy to get a local presence for a terrorist actions like Osam did in Hamburg, Germany.

Most other countries I have found in my business travels do not like Americans, U.S. power and policy, etc.. Thats why many are protesting today in Europe and other countries.

Remember one other thing:

"Knowledge is Power" - Francis Bacon - 1626

I have to believe our government has the knowledge on what WMD Iraq has and their links to terrorist groups attempting to attack us, other wise they would not be as aggressively pushing the military solution.

FYI, see link below, I knew Peter when I was growing up in Teaneck, NJ. He was a couple of years older than me, we went to the same high school, but lost contact after he graduated. He went to Naval Academy/Marines and I left to USAF for 4 years and moved away from Teaneck. He must be the most famous person I know of that I grew up in my youth.

http://www.dtic.mil/jcs/core/vcjcs.html

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-15-2003, 04:49 PM
We armed Iraq while they were fighting Iran, we armed Bin laden while he was fighting the Soviets. These guys were once our allies in the Mid-East. Which is probably the most screwed up place in the world.

Our country makes many bone headed choices in backing people that turn out to be anti-American. Hell we even armed Fidel.

This just makes most of us pawns in the grand scheme of things.

Back our country?? Hell yes.

But answer this.

Since 9-11-2001 has anything really changed? We were just on a high alert last week. So much for homeland security. Bin Laden is putting out more tapes than the former Beatles. He is still alive to put fear in our hearts. Look at all the people who ran out to buy duct tape and plastic. Just by him speaking and our media fueling the fire spreads the terrorism.

Most of us have it all wrong. What makes us so sure we can grab Saddam when we can't find a 6'5" arab.

My last thought; politics and politicians should be kept where they belong. The crapper!!!!

pescaphile
02-15-2003, 05:57 PM
I've yet to see a single convincing argument for bloodshed. Yet our current administration seems hell bent to spill it. It all seems like a lot of flag waving and unbridled nationalism and very little hard facts. I have to believe the benefit of the doubt should always be against war but it sure seems that those in power in this country these days feel the opposite.

BobK when you talk of our real allies being the UK and Australia, I think it is a lot more correct to say that the British and Australian governments as their people are decidely against supporting a war in Iraq -as is the rest of the world. And I have yet to see that there is much support here in this country either.

We have a lot of Canadians, a few Brits, and some Europeans that I know of who participate in this (fishing) forum. I know none of these people personally but would bet It'd be tough to find one who supports a war in Iraq. I also believe the majority in the US also are not in favor of a war. Even here in this bastion of right-wing politics, we even have people out protesting against these plans for war in places like Petersburg, Sitka Juneau and Ketchikan. The same is true throughout the rest of the country and the world. Unfortunately, I think the current administration isn't listening.

I apologize for posting political topics here that have nothing to do with fish or fishing. I wont post anymore on this thread and will try to restrain from doing so on anyhting similar.

Pescaphile

moosestang
02-15-2003, 09:53 PM
Sinktip

I believe that you have misunderstood my comment about our allies as I said before it is an added benefit, NOT the main reason for going to war.

myjp
Actually we have sold weapons to almost every country in the region and as capitalists we will continue to do so.

pescaphile
Here's one reason for you. If one country in the middle east gets control of the majority of the oil in the region and that country is known to be unfriendly to the U.S. then what happens to our already shaky economy(Saddam has already attacked Iran and Kuwait as well as invaded Suadi Arabia)IMHO as a combat veteran it is better to take Saddam out before he can seize control of the entire region than to let him get strong enough to try again.

one final thought-since when has Russia been an ALLY???

pmflyfisher
02-15-2003, 11:07 PM
As I said above:

Remember one other thing:

"Knowledge is Power" - Francis Bacon - 1626

I have to believe our government has the knowledge on what WMD Iraq has and their links to terrorist groups attempting to attack us, other wise they would not be as aggressively pushing the military solution.


Its very hard for me to not trust that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and Powell know a lot more about the risks in Irag then any one else does and are pursuing the right course. Knowing we have major economic problems they are still pursuing the war aggressively. That tells me they know there is a potential major deadly risk to the U.S. and other countries citizens if we do not act.

Think about this, if a war is going to hurt the U.S. economy more, why would they risk further damage to it, with just two years left in their administration ?

As soon as one of our allies have their 9/11 they will think differently. BTW, heres the CNN memorial for my business colleague who was lost in the towers collapse along with 5 other people from my country. I worked a lot with John and he was suppose to be coming to Chicago that afternoon from NYC for meetings with us, but fate had other ideas:

http://www.legacy.com/LegacyTribute/Sept11.asp?Page=TributeStory&PersonId=93179

Something to never to forget, that 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens were attacked by these terrorist BxxxxxxS, and they are going to pay eventually.

As for Russia being our allies ? :chuckle: :chuckle:

The UK is about the only major power we can depend on any more it appears.

God Bless America

PM Out

sinktip
02-16-2003, 01:47 AM
There comes a point in any debate where positions are exhausted and any further exchange plays not towards the goal of discovering the truth but rather to the egos of the participants. I fear we have reached this point.

While I am tempted to address some of the more outlandish claims that reside in recent posts, I see little good to come from it.

I would like to thank Moosetang as I have really enjoyed our exchanges. While I think that his analysis on a couple of key points is off the mark, it is at least well thought out and articulately presented. Even more, it is refreshing in that it does not echo the 20 second soundbite jingoistic rantings that seem to be the norm in discussions of this crisis.

I end my involvement in this thread now, leaving me to sit here and both ponder the concept of a just war and to search vainly for the ingredients to such in the coming storm.

removed_by_request
02-16-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher





A) Think about this, if a war is going to hurt the U.S. economy more, why would they risk further damage to it, with just two years left in their administration ?


B) As soon as one of our allies have their 9/11 they will think differently.


C) Something to never to forget, that 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens were attacked by these terrorist BxxxxxxS, and they are going to pay eventually.





Trust our goverment or any gov. for that matter, pleasse. You make me laugh.
Remember Viet Mam? A war manufactured by our gov. to stop the spread of commies. Did it work?
Our gov. is the reason that Viet Nam failed and many lives were lost.
When 9-11 hit what did our so called leaders do? They went into hiding while they left us all in the open.

A) In 1991 after our first invasion into Iraq our stock market boomed turned it around from the doldrums. That could be their reasoning for another foray.

B) Britan has been hit by terror stirkes many times. Ever hear of the IRA???? As has Canada, Israel, and many SA countries.


C) All of America was attacked by these terrorists. None of them Iraqis. We still don't have Bin Laden after 2 years of chasing him. A guy we put into power.


Like I said, Politics and Politicians are better left where they belong. In the crapper. Not on a fishing site.

pmflyfisher
02-16-2003, 08:52 AM
fyi

Interesting perspective from Australia, see link below

I bet Saddam and Osama are smiling right now over these protests. They are giving them an advantage for sure, or at least more time.

BTW, I support evey ones opinion to say what ever they want on this complex international issue. I ENLISTED for four years in the U.S. military to defend those rights.

If people want me to delete this thread, which I can as the starter of it, I will. I know this is a fly fishing forumn and this subject is emotional and controversial for all of us. There are many other internet sites to discuss this issue.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/16/1045330466976.html

PM Out

BobK
02-16-2003, 09:58 AM
Hal,

No one will be converted one way or the other. All have taken a position, and are sticking by it. The middle ground folks are for getting it over with.

Polls this weekend are running about 63-37 to go and get it over with.

You might just as well close the thread - no one will be convinced either way here - and let's talk fishing.

(Want to discuss the merits of 5-weight spey rods, anyone?)

BobK;)

removed_by_request
02-16-2003, 11:04 AM
Bob,

Thats almost as bad(merits of a 5w that is).

I am all for laying out a #9 butt kickin' when needed.

Just finish it this bloody time.

Bring Saddam's and Osama's head back in a box. I fear that the politico's in our country will louse the thing up.

If we don't do that then let it go.