Michigan - Grayling [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Michigan - Grayling


pmflyfisher
12-17-2002, 10:10 PM
Nice history of Michigan grayling and their demise, which would be us, of course.

Well I can see I fished the rivers where they once swam.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364-53612--,00.html

removed_by_request
12-18-2002, 05:27 AM
fresh water sailfish, a friend of mine who has fished Alaska many times said the residents call them pests.

Go figure.

Lipripper
12-18-2002, 01:31 PM
Cool article...thanks. Always wanted to catch a Grayling. I don't know what is more sad. The fact that the Michigan Grayling is gone or that all of our beautiful white pine forests got plucked...dunked...and cutt up, only to be replaced with those jack pines.:rolleyes: If we only knew then........

pmflyfisher
12-18-2002, 01:37 PM
Yes we can only imagine what it must of looked at but if you go to Northern Wisconsin North Woods you will see a lot of white pines. Its beautiful country up there and there are trout and of course the king of freshwater fishes (Esox) which is what I was there for a number of times.

However the Michigan jack pine country is still beautiful.

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-18-2002, 01:44 PM
Some of those hardwoods look pretty nice. Gotta like the look of Birch.

It never ceases to amaze me as to how man can come in and rape a resource.

pmflyfisher
12-18-2002, 01:51 PM
"We have seen the enemy and it is us"

PM Out


P.S. Can't remember who said that though.

removed_by_request
12-18-2002, 02:45 PM
Hopefully not some bloddy politician..

DFix
12-19-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
"We have seen the enemy and it is us"

PM Out


P.S. Can't remember who said that though.

"We has met the enemy, and he is us!!!"

Pogo.

removed_by_request
12-19-2002, 02:37 PM
I saw him dead laying in the middle of the road.

Tony Petrella
12-26-2002, 06:48 PM
Too bad the steelhead didn't come up into the Pere Marquette or Big River this Fall the way they normally do. Some shot into the Little River, though.

Guess all we can do is hope the Spring spawning run is "normal"--if there is such a thing when it comes to Michigan fishing! God only knows I've seen just about everything during the 27 years I've chased those buggers!!!

Tight Loops'
CapT

pmflyfisher
12-26-2002, 07:06 PM
Tony,

Keep the faith they will come. Been a strange year, the summer runs were way off also

Welcome to the forumn, quite a dichotomy florida to Manistee, ehh.

Love that little river, took some good pictures there this spring.

It was one of the first michigan rivers I fished in 1980 when I relocated from NJ to South Bend, IN. Really it has not changed much in the last 23 years as far as its surroundings, the steelhead runs though are not as large as they once were.

True story, my first big steelhead trip was in the spring of 1980 went to the PM, LM, and PM for a week by myself. It was late april and I did not know that the runs were almost over. A rookie mistake, hey I did not have the internet then only magazine articles and hear say as to when to go.

Was fishing the first pool I got to on LM below 6 mile and all of a sudden this silver 10-12 lb steelhead comes flying out of the water right in front of me. I can still visulaize that fish jumping now almost 23 years later.

Have a good holiday

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-26-2002, 07:21 PM
Its those first few missed fish that burns in the minds eye.

The little M. is a great early chinook fishery. They are tough dogs to land in that small river.

Tony Petrella
12-26-2002, 07:35 PM
Your "Introduction to Steelhead 101" was much more pleasant than mine. I went "swimming" in the PM TWICE in the same frigid March day (below the Whirlpool and again below Doc Winery's)! Fortunately, our club outing (Red Cedar Fly Fishers of the FFF) was being held at Barothy's and they had industrial-strength dryers or I might STILL be soaking wet!!

Yes, going back and forth from the headwaters of the Manistee to the flats of the Gulf of Mexico takes a bit of adjusting (both ways). But, the fishing's fine, each in its own way. Where we live in MI the Manistee is a spring creek mostly populated with beautiful wild brookies. The browns don't "take over" until we go about five miles downstream, near Cameron Bridge. We live in the Deward Management Area--the last place that was logged out after the turn of the century. We have so many hundred-year old stumps that it looks like the graveyard that it is.

Florida's a bit chilly, but the fishing's been pretty good all things considered.

Tight Loops,
CapT

pmflyfisher
12-26-2002, 08:02 PM
Tony

Yes the PM's flow can be very deceiving, I have seen many anglers go for a dunking.

First steelhead I caught on a fly was at the first Clay Banks, just above Deer Lick. Best single steelheading day I ever had was just above the Birch Hole on St. Patricks day, in Shaptons,and yes I went for a dunking into that black michigan mud on the south side of the Birch Hole. Was fighting a steely trying to keep him from going further into the whirlpool, had him just about ready to be beached, leaned back on the 8 weight and 4 lb leader, the leader popped and I went almost face down into the black muck.

It was in the thirties and snowing, but I kept fishing. Hooked 13-15 and landed three that St. Patties day morning all by myself with no one else around.

I can only imagine what I looked like when I walked out that morning to the Clay Banks parking, a frozen, shivering mud caked, happy steelhead fly fisherman.

Had to drive to Baldwin wash/dry my clothes in the laundry so I could get back to the river ASAP.

Priceless !!

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-26-2002, 09:55 PM
Claybanks is a nice area, had my best day there upsream by Deer lick. That was one hell of a hole, I recall fish stacking up in there like cord wood.

Remember the trip down the bank prior to the stair installation?
One wrong step and that slick clay would carry you to the bottom, the walk up after a good rain was also an adventure to remember.

pmflyfisher
12-27-2002, 08:03 AM
Had to some edits to my last post, was getting hurried of the PC last night by wife and kids. It was the Birch Hole and Shaptons where I had the great St. Paddies day in the snow storm.

But above the Whirlpool is also good, like this past spring, heck almost any one of those runs and pools in fly no kill water can hold fish at times. There are only a couple I have never touched a fish in. Can't figure that out since they look beautiful and have to hold fish.

Had a wonderful afternoon at Deer Lick this spring, and all to myself, see previous posts in this section for that trips report. Deer Lick has changed though it is not as deep as it once was, you knew it was good when you had to beat DS, Bear Andrews, Jed Davis and all of the other guides to get their at first light for first water advantage.

Don't think my heart can take those sprints through the woods down the clay banks in the dark first thing in the morning, like we did before the stairs were there. Actually the stairs are the long way around. Used to come straight down that deer trail, was dangerous if it had rained and if snow forget it.

I have taken my falls on those steep banks one time skinned my hands good on the ice, but never broke anything, and of course kept fishing in pursuit of wild chrome.

God I love that river.:D :D

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 08:11 AM
Slid down that bloody deer trail a few times, the stairs make it easier(at least saner).

Would have loved to owned that cottage by deer lick. Imagine the fishing in your own back yard.

With all the drift boats\guides on her she is starting to look like the Dan Ryan on a Friday afternoon.

Such is life.

Tony Petrella
12-27-2002, 08:40 AM
For some reason, I never spent much time around the Claybanks. Fished there some, of course, but I guess my best success was upstream.

My "personal best" was on the big redd in front of Doc Green's one day long, long ago. I'd hook 'em on that redd and fish 'em down below the dogleg. There was a neat little sandbar and an opening in the tag alders there--just above Simmy Nolph's--and I'd beach 'em and release there. Then I'd walk back upstream and start working the pod again.

Alas, those days are done! With all the pressure on the PM now, if you work your fish downstream there'll be five guys fighting shoulder-to-shoulder to get into your former spot. I mean, I'm GLAD the snaggers are (mostly) gone and that people are fly fishing, but I certainly miss those mid-week forays when you could have huge stretches of water like that all to yourself.

That's why Kate (my wife's been a fly angler for 22 years) and I feel fortunate to live in Deward. It's narrow and tough to fish, so most people come once and don't come back. We don't have to contend with hordes of other anglers, and we like that (and our beautiful little brookies) just fine.

Tight Loops,
CapT

pmflyfisher
12-27-2002, 08:52 AM
Tony,

Upstream from Green Cottage became my favorite area, but first few years I fished mainly at Clay Banks area. Doc Greens is a favorite spot before they put they new walk in access path there. yes I used to walk in, before light from the Green Cottage, ford the river at Winerys then up over the clay banks, past the Olde, Ledge Hole, and Baldwin, it was a sprint through the woods in the dark to get there at first light and have first water advantage. Great area there above Simmy Nolphs some classic water. Right in front of Nolphes is a good run.

Never forget one morning at first light I got to the Olde Hole another good one. Landed and released two steelhead I look back and there is this big guy in a red hunting jacket and hat looking to see if I was using a legal fly set up. I was. It was Simmy Nolphe, we talked for a few minutes. I guess I can say I talked to a PM ledge never say him again in all of the trips up there, and he passed away a few years ago.

You are way up on the head waters of the LM. Isn't the upper Baldwin near you also. On old time who owned the Tarry Motel in Baldwin took me back there in the early 80s showed me his secret spots one afternoon.

Paul passed away in 1986 great old guy who loved trout fishing up there. He would give me honest information about when to come and not to come, etc...

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 10:29 AM
Had the pleasure of meeting Zimmny once very cordial gentleman. Did you get a chance to look at his hands? Very gnarly came from years on the river I guess.

Green Cottage is a nice area, liked the upstream portion also the tail out below the cottage is pretty good. One problem... too many people even during the week. Took to fishing out of the flys water and a few other hidden areas which worked out better. Not too many signs of man.

pmflyfisher
12-27-2002, 11:02 AM
His hands were big, should have been a pro football player. All those years poling boats guiding down the river in its golden days before our times. Imagine the 50s and 60s steelhead runs ?

Yes I have my secret sections also, you know zipperlips.

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 11:37 AM
They probably had some good runs back then. Ever go into the ice cream shop in Baldwin and check out fish pix?

They pulled out some big boy browns and some nice lake run bows.

Tony Petrella
12-27-2002, 12:17 PM
Ah, yes!!! Jones Ice Cream. It's still there. So are the old-time photos of the days when Baldwin/Idleylde was a hot resort area.

Actually, the steelhead runs didn't start until the early 70s. Up till then, the PM was a big brown trout fishery. The anadramous fishery came about because of the proliferation of alweife in the lakes, and MDNR had to find a way to control them. Ergo, chinook and steelhead. The NDR tried McCloud River steelies first, and ended up bringing in about eight different strains over the years. Today, Michigan has a cross-bred hybrid that's named Little Manistee Steelhead. Unfortunately, the genetic trait of looking UP (for a dry fly) was bred out of these fish--unlike Umpqua and Deschutes fish.

Speaking of LM--that's not where I live. I'm on the headwaters of the Manistee--right where it begins between Grayling and Gaylord. About two hours from Baldwin. It'll take less time in the near future, when a bigger chunk of the 131 freeway gets finished north of Cadillac.

Do you guys ever get down to the Venice/Sarasota/Boca Grande area to fish salt?

By the way, Ray Schmidt, an old, old friend of mine who guides the Big River out of Wellston, sent me an e-mail yesterday telling me that he's having lung cancer surgery Jan. 6. If you know Ray, or have fished with him, I know he'd appreciate your prayers and/or psychic energy on his behalf.

Tight Loops,
CapT

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 12:57 PM
I have met Ray many times, he is a great guy and knows the Big M. like the back of his hand. His shop in Wellston is always a favorite stop when we are in the area. He directed us to Hodenpyle(SP?) for some trout fishing, nothing huge but a great time.

Its amazing that tucked away in Baldwin is Jones Ice Cream. It also is a favorite stop. That stuff is so rich, the guilt from eating it makes you want to walk an extra mile of river bank.

I pray for the best for Ray, I can't say enough good about him.

pmflyfisher
12-27-2002, 01:45 PM
Tony

Aaah yes Jones Ice Cream shop.

Will be saying a prayer for Ray only met him once at his shop in Wellston.

So you are way over by Grayling on the Upper Manistee head waters. Only did the hex hatch there once but nice country and river. Got to get back to the Ausable south branch again Mason Tract too many rivers not enought time.

Will be visiting my brother in Jupiter, Florida hope to get some SW fly fishing in, even if its only small lady fish, tarpon, or snook.

Do you guide for tarpon on the fly rod ?

Hal

PM Out

Tony Petrella
12-27-2002, 02:07 PM
Yes, eating Jones ice cream is an exercise in sublime decadence!

There are some VERY large brown trout in Hodenpyle Pond. In fact, I have a plain-jane 16-ft boat down here in Florida that I'm going to take back to Michigan in the spring to use on H-pond. I'm also going to use it along the coastline of the lakes, fly fishing for carp and smallies.

Yes, I do guide fly anglers for tarpon down here in Charlotte Harbor/Boca Grande and off Sarasota. We actually get the largest concentration of tarpon here. Homosassa gets bigger fish--up over the 200lb mark (our really big ones are 175)--but we get more fish. That happens in late April through early July. The spawning moon this year is June 14.

I used to get to Jupiter Beach when I lived in West Palm (three or four lifetimes ago, it seems like!). Back then, there were no condos or other developments along a lengthy stretch of beach, and we'd go there late at night and build a fire and roast hot dogs and marshmallows. Bet you can't do THAT anymore, eh??!!

Tight Loops,
CapT

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 02:29 PM
Isn't Burt Renyolds from Jupiter Fla.?

Rumor had it he was a decent Football player in his day. Kinda small but wirey.

Tony Petrella
12-27-2002, 05:02 PM
He played a year or two at Florida State and tore up a knee. He's still a big 'Nole fan. Also still lives on a small ranch a couple of miles west of Jupiter.

Don't know if he's a fly angler.

CapT

removed_by_request
12-27-2002, 06:11 PM
He is an angler of a different sort.

pmflyfisher
12-28-2002, 08:29 AM
Tony,

Only 175 lb tarpon LOL :chuckle: :chuckle:
don't know if they would be big enough for me.

I would probably do an ofer away 0 for 13 seems to be my unlucky number but did 0 for 20 something on fresh kings in the PM a couple of times also.

I will let my brother know that Burt is near by to Jupiter.

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-29-2002, 09:17 AM
Concentrate on big Steel, Tarpon will make you loose focus of the 20# goal. You'll be in Fla. in Feb. when that big dawg is waiting for you in a down stream lie on the PM.

Tony Petrella
12-29-2002, 04:22 PM
Gotta admit that I've gotten old enough so that the idea of looking for 20lb fish in Feb. in my shirtsleeves is a bit more enticeing to me than chasing after them bundled up in fleece! But I certainly put in my time over the years looking for the warmest socks, the perfect fingerless gloves and debated the relative merits of breathable versus neoprene waders for winter steelheading. Breathables won, by the way.

Don't know if you've gone salty at all, but these fish down here are incredibly strong. The one advantage is that unlike the PM or Big River there are no streamside snags or sweepers to foul a leader. Oyster bars can take a toll on your leaders and flats boots, however. And wading down here involves doing the "stingray shuffle" to avoid unpleasant encounters.

Are any of you planning to attend the fly show at the Southfield Civic Center March 8-9? It's entertaining and informative. If you haven't been there, it's worth a short "vacation" to check it out.

Tight Loops,
CapT

pmflyfisher
12-29-2002, 04:56 PM
Tony

I agree on the breathables for winter steelheading, but then again I am a cold weather guy USAF cold weather flight line assignments, skiing, etc...

Hmm first week in March you could probably guess where I might be ? Chasing you know what through those log jams. :hehe: :hehe:

PM Out

Tony Petrella
12-29-2002, 05:15 PM
No question that early March steelheading can be fantastic. It's probably my favorite time to chase them. A bit warmer than Feb. but a LOT less crowded than April. But, I've gotta be at the show. Might (cap letters MIGHT) have a day or so the previous week to run down to the PM. But I've already got some charters booked in Florida and can't spend too much time back in Michigan right then, and already have some business visits in the Petoskey area scheduled. Just have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Tight Loops,
CapT

removed_by_request
12-29-2002, 06:00 PM
Only one draw back to breathables versus neo, the boots are not as warm.

I know get a size boot bigger than your shoe size to enable the wearing of layered socks.

My shoe size is 14 eee not too many boots in size 15 out there. Let alone the wide size. So my feet feel the brunt of the cold while the rest of me is toasty.

Tony Petrella
12-29-2002, 07:10 PM
My breathables were made in Canada. Wardell waders by Springbrook. Don't think there are any in the States now. They are breathable uppers with neoprene lower legs and feet, with rubber-like knee pads. The best of both wader worlds!

Bueter's Outdoors, a fly shop in metro Detroit, had 'em in inventory. Don't know if he still has any.

CapT

pmflyfisher
12-29-2002, 07:31 PM
I have Wardell neopremes boot foot. Over ten years old had to fix a few leaks but they are a great product line at least in my experience. Don't see them sold much in the states.

Bought mine in Vancouver, BC, used as a back up now, they are little small on me, gained a little weight.

I like stocking foot for their better wading and walking stability on those trails and hills etc. I can live with cold feet, I am used to dealing with it.

PM Out

removed_by_request
12-29-2002, 08:41 PM
Problem is once the feet get cold your body starts to feel cold. I can deal with it, it's just a pain in the rear. if only someone made a size 15eee wading boot. I would be warmer. I have Simms gore tex best thing going, and bare neo's.

Tony Petrella
12-29-2002, 09:04 PM
My breathables have neoprene lower legs and feet, which makes them the best of both worlds.

John Bueter's Outdoors in metro Detroit had 'em. Don't know if there are any left.

removed_by_request
12-30-2002, 07:52 AM
Tony,

I read what you first posted, the issue I have is getting boots bit enough to fit 14eee feet. Small boots restrict the circulation of air around the feet. I like my Simms would not trade them for anything, except the new model Simms has coming out.

Tony Petrella
12-30-2002, 05:53 PM
I can see where 14eee would pose a bit of a problem! Wish I had a suggestion for you, but I'm sure you know WAY more about footwear outlets than I ever will.

Fished in Sarasota Bay today and could have used waders. Water was very chilly, all things considered. Probably why we didn't catch anything to speak of. Oh, well. It's supposed to be 80 tomorrow--maybe I'll take the boat out and see what we can find.

CapT

removed_by_request
12-31-2002, 10:27 AM
It kind of stinks, all the wader manfactureres make big boy size waders they fit fine. But they forgot about our feet, been toying with the idea for a while of a line of oversized wading shoes. I wonder if there is a serious market for them?

Tony Petrella
12-31-2002, 12:33 PM
In this day and age, I'm positive there's a market for 14, 15, even size 16 wading boots. Getting a mfg. to produce them is another story. It's called "market share" and most people are in the "market" for size 10 through 12. Maybe you could start a class action suit claiming discrimination. I mean, what the hell, everybody else does!!

About the only other thing you can do, I guess, is go to a store that sells basketball shoes to kids. Gotta believe they've got xxxl sizes. Not much protection against rocks, but at least they'd fit.

CapT

pmflyfisher
12-31-2002, 01:37 PM
I'm a size 10 -10.5 regular shoe/sneaker and size 11 for wader shoes. :D Makes a big difference getting the larger size to give your feet more breathability. My old wading shoes were a 10 or 10.5 and my feet got much colder quicker. Now I am a nice an toasty. :chuckle:

MJYP looks like you will have to get out of the water more and warm the toes up while I stay in there and get more drifts.

Anybody try those hand/foot 8 hour warmers on tope of their their wading socks ? I bought a few and will try them next time out.

Pm Out

BobK
12-31-2002, 03:33 PM
Tried a pair of electrically (battery) heated socks when they first came out. Problem was, they had NO HEAT FOR THE HEELS!) Design flaw, I guess - I did cuss 'em out for quite a while!

Next came a pair of the "chemicals" that worked pretty well. Problem was that when they started to cool down, feet realy got cold in a hurry.

Now I have tried a pair of nice ones - too nice, in fact - my feet really sweat in 'em. Nuts! Can't win.

So, rather than being a tester for warm socks, I decided to use the "old way" - wear a pair of wool 'stretchables" by Simms next to my feet, and a pair of heavy wool outside. Plus a pair of wading shoes or waders one size above normal for me.

Not necessarily the best for everyone, but works for me (I was a young Marine in the "Frozen Chosen" when temps ran down to -60 degrees F.! Don't lube anything, and "wear" your food and drink next to your body!)

BobK

pmflyfisher
12-31-2002, 03:57 PM
Bobk

Been using a sock liner with Smartwool socks. Been working good so far for me.

Have a good new years

Hal

removed_by_request
12-31-2002, 04:34 PM
I went the Patagonia route, liners and outer socks. They work real well considering my feet are cramped in the boot.

SDHflyfisher
01-18-2003, 05:32 PM
if they don't already they should start a stocking program of grayling in MI

removed_by_request
01-18-2003, 06:00 PM
They tried it a few years back, it was a bust. It is very hard to recapture the past my friend.

pmflyfisher
01-18-2003, 06:42 PM
Agree, forget it will not work, that part of the fishery history is over, increase steelhead and brown stockings. :D

PM Out

peter-s-c
01-18-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Agree, forget it will not work, that part of the fishery history is over, increase steelhead and brown stockings. :D

PM Out

Perhaps with the aid of some better science and careful selection of the waterways, it might be possible one day to restart the population.

Tony Petrella
01-18-2003, 07:22 PM
No, the grayling are gone forever from Grayling. Ironic, isn't it, that the town was re-named (from "Crawford") to Grayling because of that fish, then wanton butchery by "sportsmen", abetted by the lumber rape, wiped them out.

A very good friend of mine, Steve Sendek, is the fisheries biologist in the Grayling area for MDNR. He's worked extremely hard to re-introduce "woody debris" (dead trees) into various rivers. The lower AuSauble (below Mio Dam) now has a tremendous streambank "sweeper" situation, where it previously was nearly totally devoid of fish-hide.

Steve believes, and I truly believe he's right, that habitat, rather than stocking, is the key to sustaining Michigan's wild trout fishery. We've seen an incredible increase in the size of wild fish in both the AuSable and Manistee rivers because of special regulations. The state legislature finally is allowing us to bump spec. reg. water from 100 miles to 212 (out of more than 12,000 miles of water that has been classified as Blue Ribbon Trout Water). So, keep your fingers crosed for us. Michigan's wild trout are alive, well, and getting better by the year, gol dang it!!!!!!

CapT

peter-s-c
01-18-2003, 07:30 PM
I've fished that stretch and have seen the sweepers and other hides that have been created. I was struck by how little natural cover existed in the AuSable.

About the Grayling, I wasn't thinking about the AuSable but perhaps some waterways that are more hospitable.

Tony Petrella
01-18-2003, 08:56 PM
The upper AuSable, of course, has plenty of cover and produces some very fine brown trout. The section below Mio was devoid of cover because of the water generated by the dam that scoured out insects and trout habitat. Now that the hydro situation has changed, so will the "look" of the river below Mio, as well as the fishery. It's long been a "big fish" stretch--just not many of them. But that's changing. The hatches are plentiful, and the fish are getting there. That water, by the way, has the most phenomenal Ephron lukon spinner fall that you'll see anywhere in the world!!! I know, I was THERE!!!!! Looked like the Milky Way decended from the heavens to meet an Exon Valdez spill of "milk".

As far as grayling habitat, I don't think there's much in the Lower, other than maybe the Jordan, that is any better than the upper AuSable. But even that won't let them come back, it seems. Too bad. Sometimes people just don't place value on things that come to them too easily--until those things are gone!

CapT

removed_by_request
01-18-2003, 09:41 PM
There are so many brown around that the poor grayling has a hard time competing. Survival in the wild is tough big fish eat samller fish. Those browns seem to eat 24x7 when food is around. Grayling must look like a tasty snack to them.

BobK
01-18-2003, 11:32 PM
Stocking grayling, and having them survive, I am convinced, is more a function of water temperature fluctuation and purity. I think they could do well in some northern tailwaters of major dams, assuring a cold to cool flow year round, and would require low fishing pressure. (They willingly take a fly or spinner, and are fairly easy to catch.)
That is my opinion, based on the waters I have seen and caught them in (yes, here in the "lower 48".)

BobK

Tony Petrella
01-19-2003, 08:23 AM
It sure ain't easy being a baitfish!

CapT

SDHflyfisher
01-20-2003, 03:28 PM
thanks for the help peter. what states are the grayling in now in the lower 48?

pmflyfisher
01-20-2003, 05:33 PM
Montana and maybe Wyoming, than north to Canada and Alaska.

PM Out

removed_by_request
01-20-2003, 08:10 PM
Most locals consider them to be pests. i have a feeling we would feel the same way if they were still around.

Funny how things change. One mans treasure is another mans trash.

pmflyfisher
01-20-2003, 08:20 PM
Yew, and if they were any risk to our beloved michigan wild steelhead strains, I say keep them in Canada and Alaska, we don't need them anymore in Michigan with the fine trout and salmon fishing that now exists.

PM Out

P.S. Besides I read they cannot compete with other species and basically have to be alone to survive without other species present or in a very low % of the fish population. It would never work IMHO, spend the money on enhancing river habitat to benefit all trout and salmon species now in the systems is my position.

removed_by_request
01-20-2003, 08:56 PM
They would make excellent forage for our Browns. Just think football sized stream browns gorged on grayling. I would hazard a guess the browns helped to drive a nail in their coffin.

pmflyfisher
01-21-2003, 01:37 PM
Probably around 1882 when the first browns were stocked in America, in the PM and Baldwin. The brownies probably wiped out the grayling within the first two years of their residence.

PM Out

BobK
01-21-2003, 01:57 PM
I'm not so sure they can't survive other species. In Yellowstone NP, in the Gibbon (headwaters of the Madison), they coexist with brook trout, rainbows, browns and the occasional cutthroat. In the water where I caught a couple of grayling, next riffle down, I picked up a brown.

BobK

removed_by_request
01-21-2003, 02:48 PM
He was probably making his way upstream for a grayling snack.:devil:

pmflyfisher
01-21-2003, 05:20 PM
Bob

Those were probably last survivors in that river. A.J. McClane states in his book on North American game fish, they can compete with other species.

Remember AJ ?

PM Out

Tony Petrella
01-21-2003, 06:10 PM
The grayling issue in Michigan is moot. There will be no more attempts to recesitate the patient, according to MDNR fisheries specialists.

In a way, that's too bad. But, as previously mentioned, we've got a wonderful fishery in Michigan right now. Habitat enhancement is the way to go. Fortunately, that's exactly what's being done, and done very well at the moment.

CapT

BobK
01-21-2003, 08:47 PM
Boy, you guys are tough - not too smart, but tough!

Want to catch lots of grayling here in the states? Go to Yellowstone NP, look up Grebe Lake, (The source of the Gibbon) and walk into it. About a 3-mile walk (bring bug dope- mosquitos are fierce!). Trailhead is about 1-1 1/2 miles from Canyon campgrounds.

Lots of fish, too! The park service has a hatchery there - taking the eggs from the residents, they have stocked a lot of high mountain lakes in Montana Wyoming, Utah and Idaho, to name a few. Fish aren't huge, 14 inchers being common. Small wet flies and nymphs work well - you have to wade the shallows and cast out. Occasionally there will be a hatch, so bring a few dries. Watch out for BEARS!!!!

Locals think fishing for 'em is dumb. Guides in the west also avoid the grayling ponds/lakes for the same reason.

BobK

pmflyfisher
01-21-2003, 09:12 PM
Bob K

LOL

The only fish I would walk that far for and endure bugs and bear risks is fresh run wild steelhead.

Hal

BobK
01-22-2003, 08:38 AM
That's a matter of choice. To experience the surroundings, then catching one on a dry, seeing a streak of light knife up from the depths to nail the fly, and then after an admirable struggle, to hold and see the subtle colors, with THAT LONG, BEAUTIFUL DORSAL, and the light patterns dancing around is an experience to behold. Also, the fish has the latin name "thymallus" for a reason. Another reason, rarity - It's part of the experience, like admiring a fine jewel - or beauty of a woman, for that matter - or the experience of a fine single-malt.

It's also something that relatively few people have done, at least not without spending a small fortune - and you can accomplish it right here in the U.S.

It was something I dreamed about after reading about this "mystery fish" as a small boy, totally engrossed in fishing.

It's all a matter of values, I guess.

BobK

Pat Bahan
02-01-2003, 06:33 AM
Gotta agree with Bob. I also think that if they can be introduced to the Au Sable it would be a MAJOR step in the right dirrection for a civilization which has majored in environmental rape and degridation. Problem is (aforementioned difficulties aside) the Michigan Greyling, if I understand correctly, was a seperate and distinct strain, which is now extinct. If I am correct, introducing Greyling from the western strain would be sort of like introducing Rainbow into a stream that once held Cutthroat and saying you had restarted the strain. Yes, you now have trout in there, but no, you have not reintroduced the indiginous species you were after.
Maybe when they perfect cloning....................

Tony Petrella
02-01-2003, 08:05 AM
Pat--I live midway between Grayling and Gaylord, on the banks of the Manistee River. I'm a good friend of the fisheries biologist, Steve Sendek, and he tells me that conditions--as they exist today--will not permit a successful re-introduction of grayling in Michigan.

MDNR tried plantings in the Manistee and the fish simply "disappeared." They don't know what happened to them, but the most likely scenario is that they were, in fact, eaten by the big brown trout that simply didn't exist there until being introduced in the late 1880s.

They tried planting grayling in a few other places, as well. None "took."

No pun intended, but it's a dead issue.

Tight Loops,
CapT

Pat Bahan
02-01-2003, 09:29 AM
Cap,
I understand. I was lamenting the reality of the situation, not saying that I think it is do-able.
Thanks for the reply.

Tony Petrella
02-01-2003, 10:08 AM
Pat--Yes, it really is too bad that grayling were eradicated and that the hydrology and river-side habitat won't let them come back.

Personally, I think they're kinda pretty. And one of these days when I'm in the Rockies I'm going to seek them out--just so I'll finally have held one in the water at the end of my leader.

Our browns are impressive and our brookies are gorgeous--and the population of both is doing extremely well. But I'd like to float my AuSable Longboat down the Holy Water just once and hook up on one of those pretty purple creatures. Too bad it'll never happen.

CapT

Pat Bahan
02-01-2003, 12:39 PM
Exactly.
The wife (Lee) and I made our first pilgrimages to Michigan (not counting our very brief drive through on our honeymoon 26 yrs ago) last year. We fell in love with Greyling area and the U.P. I used the plural of pilgrimage because we went in July for our 25th aniv. , fell in love with the area, and returned in October.
We are seriously looking toward a trip to Alaska, which would give me plenty of opportunity at Greyling.
Won't be this year though. She has her heart set on Isle Royale this summer. Guess I'll have to get a new lightweight canoe. Our 18' Grumman standard wt is way to heavy for me to handle on long portages. :smokin:

Tony Petrella
02-01-2003, 01:45 PM
Pat--Falling in love with Michigan's north woods is a pretty easy thing to do.

I was living in East Lansing, and would fish the AuSable with my pals in the Red Cedar Fly Fishers (FFF chapter). Finally my wife, Kate, decided to give it a try.

WELL! She's been a devoted brookie catcher-and-releaser for 22 years now. In fact, she caught and released--in Michigan but not on the AuSable or Manistee (honest!)--a brook trout in excess of five pounds. And I've got the pictures to prove it ain't no fish story!!!

The upper reach of the Manistee is 400 feet from our porch. It's cold and clear, and even when the brookies get lockjaw we can at least pick some dripping fresh watercress for our salads!

CapT

pmflyfisher
02-01-2003, 01:57 PM
Wow, a 5lb brook trout in Michigan, I am looking at Robert Traver's Frenchmans Pond article in Grays Journal and the brookies are all small. Thats a huge brookie for Michigan rivers, excluding the Coasters.

PM Out

Tony Petrella
02-01-2003, 02:09 PM
You're absolutely correct. The brookies in front of our house are considered large at 10" and Grandpappys at 12".

She got this one on a stretch of water that has a lot of private property on both sides of the stream and therefore limits access to the owners. The stream dumps into a small lake, and she caught this fish in very late Sept. I believe it lived in that lake and followed the browns up during the spawn to suck down eggs and get even fatter.

Sure was a dandy fish!

CapT

removed_by_request
02-01-2003, 02:56 PM
There is a spot in the cold blustery north were some pig Brookies live. A freind of mine gave me the low down, perhaps one day I can leave a thumb print on one of them.

Tony Petrella
02-01-2003, 03:43 PM
I hope that you do, too! It was a thrill for me to find my wife hooked up to that big fish. The only nervous part was when I had to net it. I kept thinking--DON'T BLOW IT!!!!

Fortunately, all of us did exactly what we were supposed to do and now we have some great pictures hanging on our walls.

CapT

removed_by_request
02-01-2003, 06:05 PM
A pig Brookie has to be the prettiest fish swimming. Hopefully when my call comes my digi cam's ram will be empty and its battery charged.

BobK
02-02-2003, 04:20 PM
Nothing can compare with a male brookie all decked out in his spawning colors. But browns also have a a distinctive and beautiful coloration in fall, too. Rainbows and steelies have a beauty all their own, and so do salmon before they turn "black". I have enjoyed cutthroars just after spawning in the opening of July 15th in the Yellowstone, where their coloration rivalled golden trout's. But the subdued iridescence, coloration, and THAT BIG DORSAL on a grayling also make it a special fish.

All fish are all beautiful fish. A kid's first sunfish is a beautiful fish, and many a kid has been turned on to fishing with memories of that first "sunny" (or perch or bullhead or sucker).

I'm sure many of the guys on this forum started out the same way.

BobK

Pat Bahan
02-02-2003, 04:55 PM
aayah... There's little on this earth more beautiful than a big bull sunfish.

pmflyfisher
02-02-2003, 05:42 PM
I started with a stunted sunfish some wheres in NY or NJ a long time ago. (48-47 years ago??) Don't remember what it looked like either.

But I remember my first trout, steelhead, and salmon. :D

PM Out

Tony Petrella
02-02-2003, 05:50 PM
Bluegill and bullheads in a little pond. Handlined for 'em, too. My first trout came from the Coleman River in north Georgia, of all places. Either a brook or a brown. Sure have fished a lot of water since THEN...and, yeah--they're all special.

CapT

SDHflyfisher
02-03-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Tony Petrella
--DON'T BLOW IT!!!!

CapT

i do a lot of bass fishing also and when my uncle and i hook up to a five pounder that's all that goes through our heads. as a matter a fact i had a five pounder and when we got him in the net my hook comes flying out and i was scared that it came off before we got it in the net but he was in there

Tony Petrella
02-04-2003, 07:29 AM
SDH--I'm a professional fishing guide, and I STILL get excited over big fish! They're just special, I guess. If I ever lose that feeling when I see a really nice fish coming to the side of the boat, it'll be time to quit. I sure hope THAT day never comes.

CapT

SDHflyfisher
02-04-2003, 07:17 PM
i'm hoping to become a giude myself otherwise i'm going to be stuck as a fisheries biologist after college. but that isn't too bad:hehe:

Tony Petrella
02-04-2003, 08:48 PM
Hey, SDH--There is no more noble profession than being a FishBum, or more worthwhile than being a Fisheries Biologist.

My late hunting and fishing partner was a fisheries biologist, and one of my best friends right now is the fisheries guy for northern lower Michigan. Without them, FishBums like me (and maybe you, too, in the years to come) wouldn't exist. Because there wouldn't be rivers or oceans teeming with fish for us to chase.

So, no matter which endeavor you choose--you win!

Best wishes--

CapT

SDHflyfisher
02-05-2003, 03:20 PM
i'm already a fish bum fishing is all that goes through my head

SDHflyfisher
02-05-2003, 03:23 PM
refering to my bass post before one summer me, my uncle and my aunt went to a private lack in NH and i got a picture of him with an 8 or 9 pound bass and he looks terrified of the fish because he has a habit of loosing the big one. earlier that summer we could have won a tourny with a fish that he lost.

Tony Petrella
02-05-2003, 03:33 PM
SDH--Don't forget that there's an awful lot you can learn about fly fishing through the thousands of books that have been written about it. In fact, here's something pretty incredible: more books have been written about fly fishing than any other subject except Jesus Christ.

There's a lot of valuable information out there--and it's usually pretty interesting to read.

Tight Loops,
CapT

SDHflyfisher
02-05-2003, 03:34 PM
in eigth grade i did a paper on FF and got an A+ on it

Tony Petrella
02-05-2003, 04:41 PM
Then I urge you to keep up the good work.

I spent 20 years as a newspaper and magazine writer and editor before getting into the fly fishing industry as a tackle rep and guide. I still write some magazine articles.

Some of the things written by Ray Bergman, George M. L. LaBranche, Edward Ringwood Hewitt and Vince Marinaro are as educational and informative and interesting as they were when first written 50 years or more ago.

I really encourage you to read Robert Ruark's book titled "The Old Man and The Boy". I'm positive that you'll find it so enjoyable that you'll be sad when you've finished it because there isn't more of it to keep on reading. I can't tell you how many times I've picked up my copy over the years when I want to read a terrific hunting or fishing story at bedtime.

Next to actually fishing, reading about it is some of the most fun you'll ever have.

CapT

BobK
02-05-2003, 06:13 PM
CapT is right on. Your reports and comments don't have misspelled words and grammatical errors (as all too many reports do.)

After I retired, I started writing for a magazine (shooting), and just do it to keep active. But it is enjoyable to read your own articles, and have others compliment you on them. Also, the bucks keep me in beer and cigarettes (sorry about my bad habits).

But good writing is a requirement, for no matter what type of career you end up with, most require a great deal of writing (projects, progress reports, status reports, etc.). These always add up to just about HALF of the professional's job content.

So, keep up the good work, and don't get discouraged. If you do, a quick trip to the local stream will help clear out the cobwebs in your brain, and the problems of the world will quickly take care of themselves.

BobK:D

Tony Petrella
02-05-2003, 06:50 PM
SDH--BobK is absolutely correct with his comment about using your reading and writing skills--the ability to communicate effectively, if you will, to "make it".

I have a cousin who's just not skilled in the language and its uses to really get ahead in life. He's stuck in nowheresville and can't understand why.

The ability to project yourself is absolutely essential. Especially in today's employment environment. But, enough of that.

Hey, BobK--I've got the finest bird-finding English Setter in the state of Michigan. You noted that you shoot clays--how about feathers?

CapT

pmflyfisher
02-05-2003, 07:44 PM
What happened to the Michigan Grayling discussion, amazing how these threads turn into discussions in other areas.

Good to know bird hunters, I have a few friends that do, I used to. Just got a box load of duck feathers today, wohoo I have a lot more feathers to work with. Going to start some serious tying again.

Agree oral and written communications are crucial. I hated taking communications courses in college but loved english literature which has helped me through out my corporate career for major corporations.

You need those skill in what ever career you pursue. Keep developing them.

That story the "The Old Man and The Boy" I have to get who is the author. I have heard a number of other people talking about it.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-05-2003, 08:12 PM
Not amazing, probably guys are too lazy to start a new thread.

Sometimes peopel won't let things die because they are enjoying themselves..

Tony Petrella
02-05-2003, 09:02 PM
Robert Chester Ruark grew up in Wilmington, NC. The major influence in his life was The Old Man--his grandfather.

Ruark, who was a prodigy at UNC (entering college at age 15), served in the US Navy during WWII, then became a very successful columnist with Scrips-Howard in the post-war years.

His book, "The Old Man and The Boy" was one of many he wrote. He became an Africa-Big-Game guy for a while, and actually got kicked out of what is now Kenya and Tanganyika because of his writing about presidents-for-life and other, ah, questionable ways.

"Old man..." and its sequel, "The Old Man's Boy Grows Older",
are favorites of mine. Of course, I know that I'm somewhat of an anachronysm from the past century. And there probably aren't many people under the age of 50 who now can understand some of what Ruark is saying. But, read the stories anyway. Each chapter is a different slice of life--hunting, fishing and just "ing".

Well, go get a copy at the library and find out for yourself!

CapT

pmflyfisher
02-05-2003, 09:23 PM
Tony


Thanks I will definitely be reading it.

My fly fishing library goes back to mid 1970s at least. I was too busy flying around the world for large companies, going to college, and chasing ladies before that to start it, but I did fly fish starting in 1960 as best I can recall.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-05-2003, 10:16 PM
Books are only as good as the time spent enjoying them.

Try some Zane Grey, pretty neat stuff. he was a great outdoorsman for his time.

BobK
02-05-2003, 11:39 PM
Love bird hunting, especially pa'tridge (grouse!!). Always had to walk 'em up, though - never really saw a good grouse dog. ( And hunting Gordon Setters are very scarce today! I always heard they were the best.)

Did hunt quail & ringnecks behind dogs, though - and LOVED it.

I read these "books" by Ruark as they were published as a monthly series in either Outdoor Life or Field & Stream. Then, they were published as books. (I notice Patrick McManus is doing the same thing - some of his stuff is FUNNY!)

BobK:D

Tony Petrella
02-06-2003, 07:08 AM
I fish for a living, but let me tell you--there is no finer thrill in life than watching a dog that knows its business work a grouse covert!

Sure, everybody brags on his dog. Or should, anyway, But my Llewellyn-strain English--Ghost--is as fine a bird-hunter as I've ever shot over. We're very fortunate to spend the Fall in the northern lower of Michigan, where grouse literally are right outside our door (and twice last Fall right into our windows--to which my wife sagely intoned, "who says there's no such thing as a free lunch?"). Woodcock, too.

Sorry to digress. I know this is a "fishing" site. But, I learned a long time ago that there's a huge cross-over between fly anglers and upland bird hunters.

So, who wants to pick up a "thread" and weave a blanket? Somebody asked, I think, about favorite hatches? Mine would be the hex--maybe. Last September I witnessed the most incredible Ephron lukon spinner-fall imaginable. The white flies literally covered the surface of the air and the water. Like the Milky Way fell down to meet an Exxon Veldez insect-spill.

Then there's the first fish. First fly you ever tied. Best caster you've ever seen. And, of course, favorite fishing partner.

OK, boys and girls: pick one (or all) and keep the keyboard clackin'.

CapT

pmflyfisher
02-06-2003, 08:49 AM
The best Hex hatch I ever saw was on the Chippewa Flowage in Northern Wisconsin while camping and musky fishing. Did not have my fly rods with me, was dying to hit the nearest river which was the Namekagon an hour away.

They covered the roads, tent it was incredible. Bet the walleyes on the Chip had a field day.

I was after the Esox though on those trips.

PM Out

Tony Petrella
02-06-2003, 09:24 AM
I have some pretty good friends in WI. Do you know Patrick Hager, from Wausau? How about Bill Sherer in Boulder Junction?Actually, we grouse hunt together as much as we fish together. But, who's keep track, eh?


CapT

SDHflyfisher
02-06-2003, 04:33 PM
right now i am taking hunter's saftey me and my dad just got two new rem. 870s i payed for mine and plan to do some hunting as a matter of fact the last day of the rabbit season is the same day that i gradute from hunter's safety looks like i'll be draging my dad out. but english isn't my major. science is. yet some how i got into honors english and hate it still am geeting a B though. getting an A in biology and next year i plan on taking Chemistry and physics so i can take Advanced placement biology my senior year.

Tony Petrella
02-06-2003, 06:12 PM
You'll never go wrong with a degree in the sciences. No matter what else happens in the world, there always will be a need for chemists, biologists and such.

Keep up the good work!

CapT

pmflyfisher
02-06-2003, 07:05 PM
Tony

Bill Sherer will be at my local fly shop a week from Saturday actually I am afraid to go, may get hooked on chasing musky again but this time with long rod.

Check out my story in the archives about the Big Hawg I lost on Petes Bar on The Chip. Put "Musky" in the search engine and it should come up. True story I kid you not, I have not musky fished since, I figured whats the point nothing will ever equal that one and the experience of TRYING to fight it.

I hear Bill specializes in muskies on the fly in the North Woods ?

PM Out

P.S. The thread with that story is in the Pacific Northwest Steelhead section, the thread is titled "In The Zone. Putting in musky in the search engine will bring it up for you. Let me know what you think ?

Tony Petrella
02-06-2003, 07:26 PM
I will check out your fish story. Being an old writer myself, I always enjoy a good yarn. It doesn't even really have to have much in the way of facts or truehoods--'long as it's a right good spin.

Yep, Bill Sherer is big on muskies. He guides up there, and sells a whole bunch of flies that he ties for 'em. I don't catch many trout out in front of my house that are as big as the musky flies he ties.

CapT

BobK
02-06-2003, 07:40 PM
Pick a field which is really needed, AND THAT YOU ENJOY! A career is a job that you spend the rest of your life at. But it should be FUN as well.
Sciences are good (I am a retired chemist/manager). By the way, so is math. Why math? Well, for starters, QUALITY is the byword today, and it uses a lot of mathematicians for the statistics and process/product controls. Environment control, too! Lots of fun, as well.
Science is great - I spent a lot of my career doing pollution abatement and managing an environmental engineering group. I am proud of a lot of my accomplishments, as well as my co-workers.

BobK :D

removed_by_request
02-07-2003, 05:56 AM
I was told this a very long time ago and it still holds true today.

Work a job that you love, for if you do you will never work another day in your life..

SDHflyfisher
02-07-2003, 03:23 PM
like i have stated before i want to be a fisheries biologist thought about entemology but changed my mind there are way too many bugs out there to memorize. i'm pretty good at math too but as good as i am in science. as a matter of fact i'm going to kill myself next year by taking chemistry and physics at the same time i'm doing this so i can take APbiology my senior year yep that's right i'm only a sofmore.

pmflyfisher
02-07-2003, 03:39 PM
To think in high school I wanted to be a forest ranger and sit on one of those western fire towers alone watching for fires !

Look what I turned out to be a corporate guy a capitalist !!

Fly fishing and other outdoor activities keeps me in the outdoors where I really wanted to work.

PM Out

SDHflyfisher
02-07-2003, 03:46 PM
i've thought about being a forest ranger

Tony Petrella
02-07-2003, 06:52 PM
I truly feel sorry for people who don't hunt and fish. Those PETA types who rant and rave all the time really don't understand what it means to be an outdoorsman.

They walk around in ultra-expensive pseudo-outdoors clothing, blathering and slobbering about how hook & bullet guys like me are destroying the poor little piggly-wigglies and warm-fuzzies.

In reality, starting with President Teddy Roosevelt, it's been the hunters and anglers of America who saved countless species from wanton slaughter in the name of "market gunning" for restautant fare, or indiscriminate netting of fish for the same purpose. Deer, turkey, I can't even begin to list the wild game that's been "saved" by outdoorsmen in their various conservation groups, or license fees, or the Dingell-Johnson tax we pay on all fishing tackle.

Oooops--soapbox time again! Sorry. Suffice to say that being a game warden, forestry guy, or biologist is a rewarding and very worthwhile endeavor.

CapT

removed_by_request
02-07-2003, 08:20 PM
Hell what good is a 12ga if you can't drop a birdie now and then.

BobK
02-08-2003, 12:13 AM
What do you mean, "only a sophomore"? That's GREAT! There are many who wish they were your age again, and could do it RIGHT this time! Just keep at it - and keep doing a good job!

By the way, I have known forest rangers - and it is NOT just about watching for fires, etc. Most of them had to learn about forest diseases, insects, etc - very same biology you talk about.

There is only one downside currently in a fishery biology or forestry background - there is no requirement. Currently, state budgets are down, and there are early retirements with no backfill. I hear this from state fisheries biologists that I have casual conversation with. Don't know if there is an end in sight, but I do know that there currently are lots of unemployed recent graduates - and some very good ones!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but better to know now!

BobK:)

pmflyfisher
02-08-2003, 07:52 AM
I think thats true what Bob is saying. This summer when out in the Black Hills, SD I was hiking a wilderness area in Spear Fish Creek Canyon in the northern black hills with two of my sons.

One beautiful area where they filmed scenes from Dances with Wolves. A matter of fact the closing scene in the picture when Keving Costner is riding up into the canyon to go away with his indian wife from the US Calvary was right where we were. Awesome scenery, maybe will post a picture for you today.

Any way when we were walking the trail I saw this young fellow with a back pack and clip board with books. At first I though he was a trout fisherman. On our way back we ran into him again and we talked.

He was a forestry graduate from Michigan State. He was working for a forestry contracting service since it was very difficult to get a full time forestry job at one park. He said that much of the forestry technical work is now outsourced to contract firms. Who performed projects for state and federal forests. They would be on a project 3-6 months located in one of our forests, doing research on the quality of the forests. So he was travelling a couple of times a year to a new location.

What a great job. I watched him take samples of ponderosa pines and another variety.

What a job walking around the beautiful natinal forests all day by your self and geting paid for it. Plus he was a fly fisherman, mountain biker and skier and got to do all of that he wanted to.

He might be at the Grand Canyon now. That is where he said he was heading next. So if that is your dream job I say don't be deterred in pursuing it.

Great job for a young single guy, if you are married not so great though.

PM Out

pmflyfisher
02-08-2003, 08:23 AM
Heres a picture of a small back woods part of Spear Fish Canyon we hiked. This is where we met the young forestry worker and talked in that meadow.

The cliffs in the background are just before the area they filmed the closing scene of Dances with Wolves.

Imagine that being your office to work in each day !

removed_by_request
02-08-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
I

He was a forestry graduate from Michigan State. He was working for a forestry contracting service since it was very difficult to get a full time forestry job at one park. He said that much of the forestry technical work is now outsourced to contract firms.

PM Out

You do what the above means?

He was a college grad. working for peanuts. Those contractors keep the $$ and pass very little on.

Too bad for him, but the gov. probablt saves some money doing it that way. No bennies, perks, vacay pay, insurance, etc.

Sad sign of the times.

SDHflyfisher
02-08-2003, 12:51 PM
they don't get paid that much either but $ isn't the reason people take those kinds of jobs hell i'd do it for free if they gave me everything that i need to survive here in WI there are plenty of jobs in that line of work and if read the thread on CT license prices going up i can live out there with my grandparent for free well i'd get my own place sooner or later. they live in N. Cannon and that is 5 minute from the Mass. border get to the farmington is 30 minutes live within walking distance to the blackberry and a few minutes from the Housy.