North Umpqua river 2003 regs; interesting read. [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: North Umpqua river 2003 regs; interesting read.


fredaevans
12-16-2002, 10:55 AM
fr the N. Ump River from fly area boundary above Rock Creek, tostream to Soda Springs Dam.

"Restricted to use of a single babless UNWEIGHTED artificial fly. for the purposes of this rule, an unweighted artificial fly is defined as: 'a conventional hook that is dressed with natural or artificial materials, and to which no molded weight (such as split shot, jig heads or dumbell eyes), metal wire, metal beads, bead chain eyes, or plastic body are affixed, and to which no added weight, spinning or attractor device, or natural bait is attached."

Any type rod or reel permitted, but no metal core lines and no added weights or attacments to line, leader or (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, STRIKE INDICATORS) except nonfly monofilament lines may have a casting bubble or similar floating device."

Well with the elimination of 'strike indicators,' Sparkies dead meat if he comes south of the Wash. border. Understand you need a float/bobber to cast mono line, but fail to see how/why they would 'prohibit' the use of a strike indicator. No better 'strike indicator' than a bubble float ducking under. But does the language ("no metal core lines") now allow the use of sink tip lines (or sinking leaders)?

Where's Hal and his Legal Beagle co-horts when we need a legal interpretation?

fae

Jeff
12-16-2002, 11:32 AM
Fred,

These have actually been the rules in one form or another for the last two summers. I love this place and even though it was a pain to accept it this is a good thing for the fish and the river. It was about reducing the number of hook ups on holding fishing.

The strike indicator guys went nuts but they are now figuring out how to hook fish with out the use of a bobber. This could start up the whole raging debate again but when you would see a guy camp in Boat and hook a fish every 10 to 15 and never move it really soured me on it. these fish were holding fish not taking fish. I used to fish weighted leaches and such b but only for 1 fish a day and if i happen to take one on something weighted nonweighted stuff went on. Never a need to abuse a resource.

Flame away.

JJ

pmflyfisher
12-16-2002, 11:51 AM
Now this is my type of steelhead fly fishing challenge.

We need more of this particularly on wild rivers.

PM Out

New Spey
12-16-2002, 12:42 PM
You can now use sinking lines. The first year they changed, they didn't
allow them, but for the last year they have. I don't see all that many people fishing spinning gear with bubbles. And even if they do they can't weight the hook.
My only problem with the new regs is that it hurts some of the local businesses up there, like Joe Howel's. I think it would have been best if they just eliminated the spinning tackle and and strike indicators. Force people to use their fly line as the indicator. This would make it harder to drift the fly right into the fishes mouth, without taking away the ability to sink the fly.
I personally liked it when they went to dry line only. From an angling perspective, the numbers of fishers declined, freeing up all sorts of water. Also the fish seemed to be more aggressive, since they didn't have sinking lines and flies pushing through them day after day. Also forced me to stick to it and not resort to easier techniques.
That being said, I respect others right to use their own favorite techniques and am glad they became more lenient. Also less fishers would force great people like Joe Howel out of business and cost us all a valued resource.

flytyer
12-16-2002, 01:21 PM
Folks,

I wish Washington state would ban the use of strike indicators and weighted flies on the 3 fly only steelhead waters in the state. On the rest of the steelhead water in Washington, I have no problem with the use of weighted flies and indicators being used. I simply would like to see the 3 fly only rivers not allowed to fish indicators or weighted flies.

In the Seattle area that would mean that the North Fork Stilliguamish would be effected from April 16th to November 30th, after which it goes from fly only to any gear type. On the Olympic Penninsula in would mean that the upper Hoko would be effected from December 1st ro March 15th. And the upper Kalama would be effected year round.

I don't think that having these 3 rivers being limited to unweighted flies and banning strike indicators on them is too much to ask.

Fred, to my knowledge (and I freely acknowledge that I may be wrong since I don't live in Oregon) the nOrth Umqua is the only Oregon steelhead river with these regulations. Am I correct. If so, I think that it is a good thing. Especially since there are waters within an hour to 2 hour drive that have steelhead and that don't have the unweighted fly, indicator ban.

pmflyfisher
12-16-2002, 03:41 PM
I don't know of any other rivers in NA that have similar rules such as banning indicators and weighted flies specifically.

Sounds like you can still use sinking lines, thank god how else would you get the darn things down to the fish in that river ?

Looks like there is no hook size limit though so you could use a heavy 3/0 or 4/0 hook to weight the fly and get it down. I have heard this technique is used on the NU, true ?

Heck I may have to empty half of my steelhead flies out of my walletts before fishing the NU.

No wonder Fred doesn't bother to fish the NU and he is close to it! :chuckle:

PM Out

fredaevans
12-16-2002, 04:01 PM
specific to the north fork of the Umpq. Other water's (like the upper Rogue) may be fly only water, and may at points require barbless hooks. But the hook business has more to do with releasing 'wild' (e.g. non-clipped) fish. The Rogue requires you carry a copy of the game regs. as there all over the place on the who, what, when and where.

Trout are a good example: open for "trout" fishing but only if it's a clipped fish. From Jan 1 to April 30 (in some parts of the river) you can keep up to 5 'unclipped' fish at/over 24" in length. Below that they're considered a trout and a no-no..... and a $300!!! fine per fish. A cutthroat .... DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! One in your bag could get you a ride in the Paddywagon to go see the Judge.
fae

loco_alto
12-17-2002, 01:00 AM
yup, these rules essentially unchanged from last year. They work just fine for me.

The comment about 3/0 and 4/0 hooks is correct (somewhere in the archives I requested info on the heaviest hooks available for this exact reason). Realize however that the N. Ump is a big fly river if ever there was one, and big flies are standard for getting takes anyway (not required, but it is a big fly river). I've switched to saltwater 2/0 for additional heft. I prefer a slightly heavier fly and floating line with long leader, instead of a sinktip. This helps me get a deep drift of the fly through slots via mending, then a rising swing in front of the fish.

Rumor has it that heavy fly hooks are in development for such situations.

and fred, only lead core lines (and their ilk) are illegal. If it remains bent, then its illegal. Standard sink tips and sinking leaders are fine, as long as they return to shape when bent. I find that an odd rule.... "get bent" :hehe:

PS - that's the beloved river in my photo

fredaevans
12-17-2002, 01:20 AM
Brought paperwork home from the office; on line responding to a couple of days of "bs." Three double singles .. and as I type this, I think (at 11:20pm) I'm getting 'bent.'

Where do these People??? dream up this horse manure?? Got to be a "rice bowl" thing; no other logical answer.

Sheesh.
:(

loco_alto
12-17-2002, 01:27 AM
you lost me on the rice bowl ..?:confused:

pmflyfisher
12-17-2002, 08:22 AM
Hey Fred when I come out there I must fish the NU in addition to the Rogue so start up your knowledge of the best places to fish since I will expect a knowledgeable "indian guide".

See you can use sinking lines and large hooks that is better than I thought, as long as I can use my nymphs I will be OK.

PM Out

fredaevans
12-17-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by loco_alto
you lost me on the rice bowl ..?:confused:

Loco, the rice bowl reference points out that the folks who write a lot of the regulations (almost any regulation) usually are clueless on the impact of what comes out of the end of their pens. I sometimes swear that a lot of this stuff is created to justify the 'writers' job/pay check/'rice bowl.'

(Keeping in mind that I'm in Banking) Far too frequently regs/laws are written for Atty's, by Atty's to be ajudicated in front of other Attys. Even here on the Rogue, you have to carry a copy of the game regs in the car with you at all times, check the calendar, and where are you on the river. And the fine, if you don't, can be very very stiff.:eek:

And, given most of our game checkers are actually Oregon State Police officers, they usually don't mess around.
fae

fredaevans
12-17-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Hey Fred when I come out there I must fish the NU in addition to the Rogue so start up your knowledge of the best places to fish since I will expect a knowledgeable "indian guide".

See you can use sinking lines and large hooks that is better than I thought, as long as I can use my nymphs I will be OK.

PM Out

Hal, when you're ready I'm good to go! Some of the best fishing water on the upper Rogue is about 20 minutes from the bank's front door. The NU is about a 2 hour drive north of Medford. Now you know why I don't stray up the highway very often.
:>)

SparseHairHackl
12-17-2002, 03:23 PM
Hal,

I'd be happy to show you the North Umpqua. Maybe I can get you guys to let me tag along when Fred shows you the Rogue, then I can show you the Umpqua...I thiiiinnk I have a bit more experience than Fred on the NU, since I responded to a post of his requesting info many months ago. You guys can probably both cast circles around me, so I'd gain from the opportunity to watch.

Others on this forum, such as Rob Allen or GordonF, have much greater knowledge of the NU than I, but I love the Umpqua greatly and would enjoy sharing it with someone who respects the resource as you have shown with your many thoughtful posts.

Coming from the GL area, you probably haven't had much opportunity to successfully fish dries and wakers, and I've had reasonable success fishing on top the last couple years, so that might be something to look forward to depending on the time of year you visit.

--Bill Koran

SparseHairHackl
12-17-2002, 03:32 PM
Fred,

Following this thread reminded me of your earlier inquires re the N. Umpqua. I don't know how much you've fished the river since then, but I'm particularly curious if you made it up Steamboat Creek to the FishWatch site, and visited with Lee Spencer at the Bend Pool?

Visiting with Lee and seeing the steelhead in the pool is a mustn't-miss experience for visitors, fishers and non-fishers alike, IMO.

--Bill Koran

pmflyfisher
12-17-2002, 08:46 PM
Sparse Gray Hackle

NU and Rogue steelhead on drys now that what I call an apogean steelheader experience. I might as well just hang up the old fly rod after experiencing something like that.

From my NU River Journal and much other readings including input from forumn members, it appears that July/August is the target time period ?

Is it true a good week is touching 1-2 fish a week there ? Notice I said touching not catching.

PM Out

Smalma
12-17-2002, 09:09 PM
Flytyer-
It is not for Washington state to change the fly fishing regulations. Those regulations reflect what fly anglers have defined as fly fishing and it continues to be up to the fly fishing community to define what is fly fishing. From my conversations with various fly anglers as well as monitoring a variety of web sites it is clear that there is not agreement among various factions of the fly fishing community on what is or is not fly fishing.

Just an example many would agrue that fishing with a float and jig for steelhead is not fly fishing but using a strike indicator and bead head nymph is. Where is the dividing line?

2003 will be a major regulation cycle for WDFW's sport fishing pamphlet. This would be the prefect opportunity for you to submit your ideas with justifcation and see if the "community" at large agrees or disagrees. It is up to us to take responsibility for what we want. If we don't put forth input reflecting our desires then we deserve what we get and should have no beef.

Limiting fly fishing to the use of flies that are without any attached weight to the fly and/or the leader/line; the ban of weight would include such things as dumb-bells, chains, beads, lead, and other wires whether incorporated or not into the tie of the fly would work just fine for me.

Tight lines
Smalma

SparseHairHackl
12-17-2002, 09:37 PM
pmflyfisher--

I think Sept/Oct is a better time period, but it depends a bit on weather and snowpack. August is generally the toughest--lots of hot days, the water gets a bit warm, and the morning/evening time periods are quite short.

Unfortunately, I don't have much recent experience in July/August time frame, since my trips coincide with family vacations which are taken in September and October--because I like the fishing, weather, and scenery better then!

Certainly July and August can be fine, especially if you hit a rare summer rain and/or cool period. The crowds used to be less later in the year, but more people started fishing later. The change to the regs, has reduced pressure a bit, and I think the great runs on the Deschutes the last couple years have sent more people there.

As for numbers, it's doesn't have to be that tough by any means. Moving a fish or 2 a day is certainly reasonable, and 1 solid hookup. Better and more experienced anglers than I probably do a bit better.

You never know what the fishing will be like. Last year I caught a 15 pound fish on a waker--on the 5th rise from the same fish, after my buddy had already fished the pool with a wet. This year, the fishing seemed pretty hot in September: I had 11 rises to the waker in 2 days, from 7 or 8 fish. However, as I posted back then, I only landed 1 fish--after I switched to a muddler shortly before I had to leave. Great fun. The next trip I moved only 1 fish in 2 days, and only pricked it.

Whatever the fishing circumstances, the N. Umpqua is a gorgeous and beloved Wild and Scenic River. I can't get there enough. I'm hoping to finally visit for winter fish this February or early March.

--Bill

flytyer
12-17-2002, 10:34 PM
Smalma,

I sent in my comments on the 2003 fishing regs via email the first week comments were being solicited. And I have written once again that I would like to see the three steelhead fly only rivers ban the use of weighted flies or weight attached to the leader. This would avoid the abuses on the Stilly where folks use marabou jigs or heavy lead barbells on "flies" with dink floats, which they call indicators - in effect, float fishing with a fly rod.

I have been sending in comments on fishing regulations since moving to Washington state in 1991. It is one of the few opportunities available for anglers to maybe get heard in numbers sufficient to effect change.

However, WDFW (i.e. Washington state) does not always do what the majority of those who comment to them about regs desire. Also WDFW makes the regulations and the sportsfishers have to abide by them to avoid problems with the constable. Fly fishers, nor any other fishers for that matter, make the rules. And WDFW can change the rules any year it so desires, with or without input from anglers.

I have also commented to WDFW headquarters about the use of the jigs and floats on the Stilly and how they are used by some to target chinook at the Deer Creek Riffle for the past 5 years. I have yet to hear anything from them, get any feedback, or see any change in the regs (other than an emergency closure at the Deer Creek Riffle 2 of those years, despite the fact that chinook in the Stilly have been declared an endangered/threatened species.

I hate to sound negative; but WDFW has not been all that responsive to the desires and wishes of fishermen who care aobut the resource.

Smalma
12-17-2002, 11:15 PM
Flytyer-
Wonderful to hear that you have tried to be involved in changing the regulations Washington. The Wildlife Commission has decided to only consider major changes to fishing regulations every other year (their response to people's concerns that regulations are forever changing). This summer's regulation proposals were for a "minor" cycle. Suggestions for major changes will be solicited during 2003 (go into effect for 2004). The fact that your previous suggestions didn't make the cut may be just an indication that WDFW didn't perceive of or receive much support for it from other fly anglers. Can't say that I'm surprised given the diverse interest of various factions within the fly fishing community. What is needed is wider support from various concern fly fishers (that could be as individuals or as organizations).

It is truly amazing how few comments that WDFW receives on most issues. I can only encourage you to continue in your attempts to be an agent of change and hope that others may join you.

Tight lines
Smalma

flytyer
12-17-2002, 11:32 PM
Smalma,

I have been surprised by how few fishermen provide comments or feedback to WDFW. I feel that we fihsermen have a duty to provide the feedback and ask for the changes we would like to see in the regulations. And if we don't, we have zero (and I mean zero) right to say anything negative about them or about WDFW.

I sincerely hope that some of the readers of this board who live in or fish in Washington state will read these postings and then go promptly out and give some feedback to WDFW. For as you say, we can either become an agent for change, or let opportunity to help effect change pass us by.

fredaevans
12-18-2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by SparseHairHackl
Fred,

Following this thread reminded me of your earlier inquires re the N. Umpqua. I don't know how much you've fished the river since then, but I'm particularly curious if you made it up Steamboat Creek to the FishWatch site, and visited with Lee Spencer at the Bend Pool?

Visiting with Lee and seeing the steelhead in the pool is a mustn't-miss experience for visitors, fishers and non-fishers alike, IMO.

--Bill Koran

(Side Bar: It's good to 'log off' every couple of days; amazing what pops up to read when your just in "lurking mode.")

Joan and I did make it up to the Umpqua last fall ... long fall day drive, home via Crater Lake 'loop.' (This drive will kill a day but you travel - with fishing the NU - through some of Southern Oregon's most beautiful country). Lee didn't appear to be about at the time we stopped by, but looking down into the water was a OH MAN LOOK AT THAT ONE!! experience.

To others: Joan and I always have the "latch key" out to board members to either stay with us as they fish, or to act as a "guide" on the river. Several others have had me fax them my 'what rock to stand on map' that gives a good overview of the river and where to generally find fish.

Either way we've met some of the most wonderful people you could immagine. And I'm pretty darned good on a bar-b q. New home in south Ashland (move in mid-January) is very easy to get to as it's less than a half mile from the I-5 on/off ramp. Adds about 10 miles to the drive to get to the river but it's all freeway so you zoom.

fae

pmflyfisher
12-18-2002, 08:21 PM
Fred, instead of the hand drawn map could I have the GPS coordinates of your favorite pools ? This way we will be sure to save them for future generations.

Bill

Your going to have pulling out the NU River Journal soon. God that looks like a gorgeous river, September looks like the time, eh. August would probably be the best month for me to think about coming out there, my youngest boy is a HS football player and there season starts labor day weekend for the next 3 years.

We will see though it is definitely high on the wish trip list.

PM Out

fredaevans
12-18-2002, 10:20 PM
But the map is free; a GPS (saw one on sale today for $120) is little better than the map. Map has mile markers down to a 1/10th mile.

And I suspect (at least I've been told) you Great Laker's would get lost three blocks from your front door. :D

gordonf
12-26-2002, 12:15 AM
How about a "mini spey clave" on the NU next summer. Plenty of good water right at Susan Creek campground to practice on during the day. And in the mornings and evenings we can swim our flies on the many honey buckets up and down the river (no indicators or weights of course).

How about it, anyone interested?

juro
12-26-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Fred, instead of the hand drawn map could I have the GPS coordinates of your favorite pools ? This way we will be sure to save them for future generations.

...

PM Out

Sounds like an unprecendented use of TECHNOLOGY to promote fishing for someone who has been dead set against? :devil:

I use my GPS constantly on the coastal areas of Cape Cod but if I ever sell my GPS the coords will be wiped. :smokin:

pmflyfisher
12-26-2002, 10:54 AM
Juro,

Yes I can see the usefulness of a GPS for coastal ocean fishing or lake fishing, but not for river fishing, probably not that helpful.

For the record I do not have a GPS. Just hope Fred has documented all of those Rogue locations and is not depending on his fading memory. :D

PM Out

SparseHairHackl
12-26-2002, 11:42 AM
Gordon,

I'd jump at the opportunity for a mini spey clave on the NU. Any excuse to go there is welcome, and learning the river a bit more is always good. I'm sure my casting is awful in comparison to you and others, but I'd happily embarass myself to learn a bit more.

Plus, although I feel I have decent NU knowledge by now (I'm hoping to see if I can translate any of my knowledge to fishing there in Feb or March), I'm sure it pales in comparison to your river knowledge and that of a few others who post on this board.

--Bill

fredaevans
12-26-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Juro,

Yes I can see the usefulness of a GPS for coastal ocean fishing or lake fishing, but not for river fishing, probably not that helpful.

For the record I do not have a GPS. Just hope Fred has documented all of those Rogue locations and is not depending on his fading memory. :D

PM Out

so many times it's close to tatters. Agree the a GPS for river fishing probably wouldn't be all that much help, but for Coastal stuff! you betcha.

I've got the greatest respect for the Sea, it doesn't care ... especially if you add fog, wind and a current set. As said before, I think these fellows with their Yak's are a bit on the nutty side.
:whoa:

Forgot to add: I think a North Ump. 'mini-clave' is a great idea!
fae/jee

pmflyfisher
12-26-2002, 02:50 PM
Fred,

Thats exactly how my Michigan county map book is, falling apart crumpled scribbled notes on locations only I can decipher. Cover has fallen off. Its almost 20 years old now. Agree on the Yaks in the ocean, high risk, and at our age with families forget about it.

Hope your holiday was pleasant, I am at work today and it feels like I am the only one here. No one else on my floor, parking lot empty. Kind of nice, wish I could have more solitude like this in corporate world, like fly fishing you know.

PM Out

rphelps
12-30-2002, 10:36 AM
:tsk_tsk:

For those of you who think it is necessary to bash folks who helped write the new regs - :tsk_tsk:

It took a lot of work by a lot of folks who really care about the river to get the new regs in place.

On this site I now see folks wanting to resort to heavy hooks, etc. to side step the regs. I guess it will come down to people who want to do this resorting to using a fly rod with mono on the reel with a bubble attached to leader with heavy saltwater hooks. What's the point?

The new regs were designed to protect fish that are not willing to chase a fly, that's the point and those that are willing to try anything to get to those fish just don't get it!

There are many fish in the river that are willing to chase a dry waking fly or a wet fished in an appropriate manner by folks who don't hog holes.

The river is a precious resource in itself, the fish make it even more so and deserve better than some of the ideas and thoughts I see expressed in the posts.

Please think about the intent of the new regs, that we now have the only river in the NW that has this level of protection for the native fishery, and that it will help that fishery be there for your future enjoyment in the coming years. That is more than can be said for many NW rivers.

beau purvis
12-30-2002, 10:47 AM
well put! Beau

roballen
12-30-2002, 11:33 AM
Umpqua Mini-clave Yes!!! Don't know if it matters to anyone else but my preference for this outing would be Early in the season cause in the fall I want the river for myself and a few friends :) I'd propose Early July! Not as many fish that time of year but they are HOT!

fredaevans
12-30-2002, 12:47 PM
"It took a lot of work by a lot of folks who really care about the river to get the new regs in place.

On this site I now see folks wanting to resort to heavy hooks, etc. to side step the regs. I guess it will come down to people who want to do this resorting to using a fly rod with mono on the reel with a bubble attached to leader with heavy saltwater hooks. What's the point?"

Actually, the 'heavy hooks' was a question raised a year or two ago when the NU was restricted to non-wted hooks, dry lines, etc. The point was made that so you couldn't weight a hook, but you could use a 2/0 hook, so what was the difference?

I was also taken aback by the size of the patterns/hooks that were offered for sale by some of the local shops. HUGE heavy wire hooks/flys (#2x's to 1/0) as compared to what is commonly used on the Rogue... short of in the dead of winter in high water conditions. Minimal point here, but it appeared the 'locals' were promoting the idea of how to circle the intent of the regs.
fae

GBSkunk
12-30-2002, 02:56 PM
I'm up for a NU spey clave! I agree with Rob. Early July would be best although it may be tough to get camping spots at Susan in July.

SparseHairHackl
12-30-2002, 03:43 PM
The early July time frame for a mini-clave sounds great. I am not typically there at that time, so this would be an additional trip. Yeah!

Fred, very large flies are commonly used on the Umpqua. Rob Allen gently chastised me on this forum last fall about fishing too small. Joe Howell says this is a big fly river, and is quoted in Combs' "Steelhead Fly Fishing", "One summer I decided to see how large a fly could be used for summer steelhead on the North Umpqu. I fished them as large as 6/0 and they took steelhead as long as the sun wasn't on the water."

The point I'm trying to make is that large hooks are not typically used to circumvent the regs. The large flies are intended to be a greater attraction--to MOVE the fish to the fly. The regs are intended, hopefully, to reduce the capability of taking the fly to the fish. Thus, tired and dour fish will be less disturbed.

Bring the fish to the fly, not the fly to the fish, that's the goal. I recognize there is a time for the latter, but summer and fall on the Umpqua is not that time. If people want or need big numbers of steelhead hooked, the Umpqua is not for them.

--Bill

fredaevans
12-30-2002, 04:49 PM
"Fred, very large flies are commonly used on the Umpqua. Rob Allen gently chastised me on this forum last fall about fishing too small. Joe Howell says this is a big fly river, and is quoted in Combs' "Steelhead Fly Fishing", "One summer I decided to see how large a fly could be used for summer steelhead on the North Umpqu. I fished them as large as 6/0 and they took steelhead as long as the sun wasn't on the water."

humuges for a fly. Again, keeping in mind I've very little time on the NU, it's not a large, or wide, river. The slots must be deeper than heck; but what works, works. However, when you're used to running #6-#12's for summer fish, and the odd #4, a fly done on a #1 or #2 hook looks huge even for winter runs.

:D

roballen
12-30-2002, 08:27 PM
Everyone knows I am no big fan of bobber fishing with a fly rod and that I AM a HUGE fan of the new Umpqua regs. So everyone can take what I say for what it's worth to them..

There is a huge difference between swinging a 4/0 skunk through 5 different pools through the course of a day and parking yourself on the boat pool and fishing a ugly bug tied on a 6/0 tarpon hook under a bobber over the same fish hour after hour after hours under. That is why the new new regs came into effect.

Hey how about a winter time spey clave on the Umpqua? We could have the river all to ourselves!!!! maybe we could take over the dogwood motel for a weekend in March???

Ps Bill Big fly big feesh :)

SparseHairHackl
12-30-2002, 09:05 PM
Winter spey clave on the NU...

I already mentioned (twice!) in this thread I was hoping to head there in Feb or March, so the winter clave would be great, but...

The problem is going to be the need to make it an almost spur-of-the-moment thing, dependent upon the weather. I've been planning a late winter trip for 3 or 4 years, and haven't done it yet. Two things are needed simultaneously--the break in the weather and a break in my workload.

Still, I'm up for trying to do this. Hmm, maybe I can schedule a short vacation, letting the dates "float" a bit.
Since I know the upper a little, I might even have some useful knowledge to share. Then again, maybe not, since I haven't proven my theories on likely winter holds yet. Still, there's some favorite water that I'm just SURE will have winter fish easily accessible...

Rob, as far as the big fly, big "feesh" theory, I thought you didn't trout fish?!<g> My best NU fish came on a modest size waker, and my next best fish came on a muddler that was tied small on a #8. Hmm, maybe I'm really a great, no, FANTASTIC fisher who just needs to use bigger flies to realize my potential??? Yeah, right...the truth is my casting needs to improve before I can get those monsters to turn over consistently.

--Bill

flytyer
12-30-2002, 09:58 PM
FLIES UP TO 6/0 FOR SUMMER RUNS, WOW!

Like Fred, I see these as huge flies. I don't even use flies that big on the Skagit during high water in the winter, and the Skagit is a very large river. The largest flies I use are tied on Alec Jackson Blind Eye Spey Hooks #1 1/2, and those are Dee wing flies (sometimes double wing dees at that).

During the summer and fall I use #6 to #12 almost exclusively, and many of them are tied in true low-water style (i.e. only half the shank long). The exception is the occasional spey fly tied on an Alec Jackson #5 for either late evening fishing or fishing after a storm that has risen the water a foot or more. I can't imagine using 1/0 to 6/0 flies in skinny summer water. I'd have to use my T&T 1611 to cast them a decent distance instead of the lighter 7 to 9 weight 2-handers I like in the summer/fall. As Fred stated there must be some deep slots in the Noth Umpqua.

pmflyfisher
12-30-2002, 10:36 PM
Can't imagine a 6/0 steelhead fly particularly for summer steelhead.

Biggest I have is a 2/0 and with the new hook gap size restriction in michigan of 1/2 inch max, I don't think I can go over a 1 or 1/0 hook size in the rivers.

Size 4 is big here, normal steelhead fly sizes are 6-16.

PM Out

roballen
12-30-2002, 11:27 PM
My typical wet fly on the Umpqua is a 1/0 skunk. I rarely fish smaller wet flies on that river.
Even when the Umpqua is low the fish are still moving from 4 to 6 feet virtically to take the fly. A friend of mine(and superb fly Tyer) tied me a Black King on a 3/0 partrigde "N" and the next morning I hooked 2 fish on it. And this was an extremely low water year on the Umpqua.
Some rivers lend themselves well to swimming larger flies. The Umpqua is one of them.
I do keep a couple large flies in my box as follow up patterns for fish I have spotted. One of those is a 5/0 Orange GP. I fish it up and across stripped and twitched and every once in a while it will get chased down by an agressive fish who just wasn't into a smaller offering.
The two winter fish I hooked on the Umpqua both came to large flies. One a 3/0 alec jackson the other a 5/0 partridge.

all this talk has really got me going I need to hook a fish soooooooooo badly..

pmflyfisher
12-31-2002, 08:27 AM
Cool, got to get out there, think I will go reread my NU River Journal again.;) ;)

With those size flies and warm air temps it would be easy to thread the leader through the fly's eye and I could do it with out my bifocals. :chuckle:

BTW, what pound test leaders are you using with those flies ?

I know what you mean about needing to hook some steel soon also. ;)

Have a good new years.

PM Out

Rick J
12-31-2002, 09:28 AM
Nothing wrong with big heavy hooks for steelhead. The whole concept of grease line fishing is based around big sparse flies that can drop in the water column. If anyone does not like using them -that is ok but to say those that do are trying to get around the regulations is nuts. The use of big heavy hooks has been a tradition on this river long before folks got pissed at the indicator and lead guys!

pmflyfisher
12-31-2002, 09:46 AM
Yes, I know the A.H. Wood greased line salmon techniques, unfortunately I cannot use big hooks in Michigan any more. Now must weight the hook and limit it to 1/2 inch gap max size.

From what I have heard from the forumn BC, Oregon, and Washington members there are no regulations on size of hook, some rivers must be barbless, no doubles on some, and no multi fly setups (2 or more) in some or all of these areas.

Sounds like a weighted hook is legal in all of these areas other than the NU river.

PM Out

rphelps
12-31-2002, 10:21 AM
For those of you who fish large flys with big hooks on a wet fly swing or greased lined, I sorry that you might have taken offense to my post regarding trying to get around the regs using large hooks. No offense meant! :)

The point I was trying to make is there are folks out there using very large saltwater or other type heavy hooks tying sparse nymph patterns on these hooks, bending the gape to meet regs and using such to try and get down quickly. That was the point I was trying to make.

I believe on Dana's Spey Pages that Ed Ward made the best case for why no indicator/nymph set up should be allowed on our rivers that have native runs. If you haven't read it, you should. Very good article on a varity of subjects.

Having fished the river for a while now, I find myself using 6 and 8 Muddlers well greased on a floating line with a Sage 7136 well mended has produced many more fish than any large flys I tried. I too use large waking flys, especially in the fall; however, the small Muddler still out produces the larger waking flys with better hook up ratios.

In early July (before the crowds)and again in the fall (after Labor Day) try some of the smaller Muddlers, you will be surprised!:cool:

fredaevans
12-31-2002, 12:25 PM
"For those of you who fish large flys with big hooks on a wet fly swing or greased lined, I sorry that you might have taken offense to my post regarding trying to get around the regs using large hooks. No offense meant!"

The difference in 'what works' from one location to another can produce quite a Wow! if it's way off of your local norms. The operative term being 'your local.' :D

With the larger sized flys do you find you have to use a heavier, and or longer, rod to work the water?
fae

rphelps
01-01-2003, 12:04 PM
Dear Fred,

I have fished up to 2/0 waking and wets on the Sage 7136 on floating and also using sink tips.

On the sink tips I take out the first two sections of a windcutter 678, attach the sink tip and open up the cast some. It works fine with controlable casts up to 70 or so feet, which that or less is where I catch 90% of my fish. While one can still mend beyond that distance, it becomes much harder to direct the fly exactly where you want it, which to me that is the real advantage of two-handed rods, not necessarly huge casting distances, although distance on some rivers comes in handy, but not many.

If I go to a larger fly or want to fish bigger rivers I use my Burkie 14' 3" 9wt with a mid-spey with tips and I also have been trying out shooting heads I make up and these work well.

I just ordered a custom built Sage 6136-3 piece after casting such and will start working on some shooting heads for it. The rod is plenty powerful enough to handle steelhead up to 10-12 lbs without tiring them in the process.

Hope that answers your question.

Best,

R Phelps

fredaevans
01-01-2003, 03:14 PM
Love the 7136 (actually have both the old and new) and do run floaters off this on the Rogue. But have never even considered a hook over a size 4 with this rod. To the question: given the size of the hook do you favor a small compact (or scaled down) tie? Thinking water resistence/drag when casting.
fae

rphelps
01-02-2003, 10:12 AM
Fred,

First, in my last post I mentioned a rod I had ordered as a Sage 6136 when in fact it is a 6126 3 piece.

Secondly, in response to your question, as I said previously, for summer fish I seldom ever fish flys over size 6 or 4 anymore. I do well with these sizes on any river I fish. Besides regular Muddlers, I tie and use a lot of small (1/2 inch to 1 inch plastic tubes) tube flys, tied in a couple favorite patters, fished wet which are very effective. With the tube flys, I use size 6 short shank ring eye hooks for better hook ups. I love these flys!

I have fished 2/0 wets full dress on the Sage 7136 and had no problem casting these on that rod.

For winter runs, I use a 14 ft 3 inch Burkie and fish flys as large as 3/0 on it, mostly larger tube flys. No problems with casting these as far as I want to fish the water, including with sink-tips.

On most rivers I find that size of fly for casting and water resistance make not much difference, as I am more concerned with control of the fly during the drift and not distance casting.

As I said before, 90% of my fish are taken with 60 or so foot casts with a lot of them only 20 foot or less from bank when hooked.

Hope that helps answer your question. :)

fredaevans
01-02-2003, 12:09 PM
With a few notable exceptions on the middle- upper Rogue, the fish are not going to be out fighting (as in 'holding') in a heavy current flow. Summer fish (lower flows) might be anywhere, but in the winter they're bank huggers. Most of the fish will be holding out of the current in as little as 1 foot to 3 foot of water.

Also agree, that's it's interesting how a 'large' tube fly configuration will have far less drag/stick when casting than a 'conventional' tie.
fae

New Spey
01-04-2003, 12:02 AM
Having fished the river for a while now, I find myself using 6 and 8 Muddlers well greased on a floating line with a Sage 7136 well mended has produced many more fish than any large flys I tried. I too use large waking flys, especially in the fall; however, the small Muddler still out produces the larger waking flys with better hook up ratios.

Alan Klein of "Home Waters" in Eugene, also uses the small muddlers, both on the North Umpqua and the Mckenzie. He said he caught about 35 on the Mckenzie this fall, right into December. All on a size eight muddler. Joe Howel believes the bigger wakers work better for the North Umpqua, but now you have me wondering. My only dry fly hook up so far, was on a size 6 rusty bomber.
Now I am urked at myself for not having fished on top more. Most people claim it is hard to get fish to come up on the Mckenzie. I thought I had two go all the way to the North Umpqau to do it. O f course the North Umpqua is far more pleasing to the spirit.

pmflyfisher
01-04-2003, 08:04 AM
Quite a technique dichotomy size 6 dry muddlers to size 4/0 and 6/0 wets.

When I do the NU it will be on top with the muddlers.

FYI, I have printed this entire thread and will place it with another NU thread on techniques from the forumn last year. So when I go and I will go I will be prepared with proven onstream angler experience.

Also the NU is more appealing to me since the indicator fisherman are gone and the crowds appear to be less with the new regs.

BTW, why don't they make it no kill of steelhead also like the PM flies only is ? My research is showing that the PM is the only steelhead and salmon river in NA with a flys only and no kill section 7 X 24 of all fish.

Thanks

PM Out

removed_by_request
01-04-2003, 09:23 AM
Hal,

This statement

"My research is showing that the PM is the only steelhead and salmon river in NA with a flys only and no kill section 7 X 24 of all fish. " the 24x7in particular has bothered me for a long time.

I'll pose a question in the GL section, for I want to see how most guys feel.

Would appreciate your feed back on it.

Rick J
01-05-2003, 03:30 PM
NU is a catch a release for wild fish but you can keep hatchery fish. I know a number of fisheries biologists that are of the opinion that you should kill every hatchery fish you catch! I can't bring myself to kill a steelhead but can see the point if you want to protect the wild fish as much as possible

roballen
01-05-2003, 04:02 PM
By all means kill as many hatchery fish as you can eat from the North Umpqua or anywhere. bbqing a nice summer run after a hard day of fishing is a wonderful treat. especially if it's prepared by Gordon F. :D
I thuroughly understand not wanting to kill a steelhead but thats is precicely why ODFW puts hatchery fish in the Umpqua. ALso getting hatchery fish out of the river before they spawn is a good thing. If it won't go to waste by all means bonk it and grill it..