Hair Wing Salmon/Steelhead Fly Swap [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Hair Wing Salmon/Steelhead Fly Swap


pmflyfisher
12-02-2002, 03:46 PM
Any one interested in a hair wing atlantic salmon/steelhead fly swap with a target date of January 31, 2003 for the flies ?

Tie any pattern you like classic or or your own, probably limit it to ten participants.

Respond if interested and I will post up the fly swap guidelines this weekend.

Hal

Smolt
12-03-2002, 10:10 AM
I am interested in atlantic salmon flies. Even though I live in the Chicago area and have access to Great Lakes steelhead fishing, I have never done any and do not anticipate doing any, so steelhead flies are not part of my extensive repetoire. LOL

fredaevans
12-03-2002, 01:24 PM
Count me in.
Fred

pmflyfisher
12-03-2002, 02:40 PM
Smolt,

Essentially many of the same atlantic salmon hair wings can also be used for GL and PNW steelhead and vice sa versa. So I assume you are in the swap.

Also why don't you fly fish for GL steelhead if you live in Chicago area like I do ? Lots of good fishing opporunities within a 2-4 hour drive in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Indiana.

PM

Willie Gunn
12-03-2002, 03:14 PM
Hal,
I'll tie a Garry Dog variation on my new Dyna King Barracuder just as soon as Fred gets it in the post. What a wonderful man he is, he understands drop addresses perfectly.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-03-2002, 04:11 PM
Malcolm,

Excellent, I read the history on that Garry Dog fly, poor dog. What type was it, our family is thinking about a retriever to replace our deceased Great Dane. Have to make sure we get one with long hair I suppose.

Hal

Willie Gunn
12-03-2002, 04:51 PM
A yellow lab I think ? I must dig out the book and get the right story, was it the dog or his owner that was called Garry?

Malcolm

Steelheader69
12-03-2002, 06:58 PM
I'll tie up an atlantic fly. Will go through and pick one out. Let me know when and how many.

pmflyfisher
12-03-2002, 07:01 PM
Jerry,

Will it be one of those new wire body models ?

PM me on that if you need help.

Hal

wrke
12-03-2002, 09:11 PM
I'm in. Would you like a fly used in Russia or on the Gaspé?
Bill

pmflyfisher
12-03-2002, 09:40 PM
Bill,

Russia of course.

Hal

fredaevans
12-03-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Willie Gunn
Hal,
I'll tie a Garry Dog variation on my new Dyna King Barracuder just as soon as Fred gets it in the post. What a wonderful man he is, he understands drop addresses perfectly.

Malcolm

Now, no one is allowed to ask how "the greater we" are keeping this ... how shall we say? ... purchase from the eyes of a prying wife.

:rolleyes:

Seperate accounts are a good thing.
:devil:

flytyer
12-03-2002, 11:13 PM
Count me in guys. I'll tie McNeese's Pale Peril, a dynamite morning fly in the summer and fall.

pmflyfisher
12-04-2002, 08:36 AM
Ok, great including me that is 7 people.

Looking for 3 more to make the ten participants.

Have to think of what pattern to tie lets see there must be at least thousand possibilities plus any other custom patterns one may have.

Smolt
12-04-2002, 01:43 PM
PM,

Yes, I am in. I will tie a Black Bear Red Butt.

I don't fish GL steelhead because I don't know much about steelhead. [As far as I can tell, fishing for steelhead is sort of the opposite of fishing for atlantic salmon.] I have no friends here who fish, so I have limited my serious fishing to trips to Maine -- where I lived for about 13 years -- and the Canadian Martimes, where I fish with friends from Maine.

My only on river exposure to the GL tribs has been the Root River. That's just too crowded for my taste.

I remember fantasizing as a teenager about fishing the Pere Marquette, the Brule, and the Manistee, but I moved East as a young man before I got a chance to fish any of those rivers. I am sure there are great experiences on the GL Tribs to be had, but, though not an old codger, I am past the age of exploring on my own.

I recently bought a 13.5' 7-wt two-hander -- my first -- and plan to learn to cast a two-handed rod this Spring. Maybe that will cause me to get off the couch and search out some GL chromers.

fredaevans
12-04-2002, 03:26 PM
stares at him in fear every time he goes near his tieing bench. Poor dog has lost most of his tail hair over the years.

"Hal,
I'll tie a Garry Dog variation on my new Dyna King Barracuder just as soon as Fred gets it in the post. What a wonderful man he is, he understands drop addresses perfectly.

Malcolm"

Willie, is it also true, that your wife keeps her fur coat under lock and key?


:devil:

nbrandon
12-04-2002, 03:36 PM
I tie a nice Thunder and Lightning if you need another participant.

Neil

pmflyfisher
12-04-2002, 05:52 PM
Smolt,

You will have to come out with me and I will show you some of the good steelhead fly fishing opportunities we have here. Forget the Root, that is chaos. I am always looking for serious steelhead fly fishing partners. Actually for the last few years I have been going solo. I will tell you though most of the good steelheading fishing is in cold conditions. BTW, love Maine been through there a number of times when lived back east but did not do much fishing there. Mostly NH, NYS, NJ, and PA when I lived back there 20 years ago.


So Smolt and N Brandon are now in. That makes 9 participants if I am counting correctly.

Need 1 more to close this swaps participants out.

fredaevans
12-04-2002, 08:46 PM
probably be "presented" with a 12 page written (very small print) performance contract. Why am 'I afraid, very afraid?' :D

This will be very cool ... other than all my pattern books are in storrage until the new house gets finished. As the 'topic at hand' is "hair wings" can anyone point me at a web site for some suggestions?

Years ago, an old friend told me that "rich or poor, everything you own can be put in the back of a big truck." Bob understated the truth. No matter what your wife says: never buy a home "under construction;" you have NO CLUE how long it will be before you get your "stuff" back. This is turning into a working definition of: " THE SH..'s." :eek:

pmflyfisher
12-04-2002, 09:28 PM
Fred,

I could write very detailed complex requirements but I get enough of that in corporate land.

There fore the requirements will be simple as follows:

1) Fly must have a hair wing, thats why we call this a hair wing fly swap.

2) Can be any atlantic salmon or steelhead hair wing pattern of your choice, but lets ensure no two people are doing the same fly pattern.

3) Hook size, lets determine what hook size would work best for every one. I suppose either a size 4 or 6.

I have my K. Fulsher and C. Krom - book here - Hair Wing Atlantic Salmon Flies - 1981, which provides a history of hair wings, tying techniques, and many patterns.

I will tie one of these, probably one that is not a famous one.

I think some of the historical Rogue River Flies like the Red Ant, Golden Demon, Yellow Fever, Juicy Bug, Tiger Paw, Blue Boy, Rogue River Special, Old Mare, Black Ant, or Chevaney etc.. would be deeply appreciated by us knowing that it came from the Rogue Spey Master himself. :hehe:

Hal

fredaevans
12-04-2002, 10:03 PM
is a "four letter word." NEVER, EVER, NEVER EVER buy a home "under construction!" Sweet Jesus, I'll be dead before this thing gets built. My life insurance will leave Joan with out a mortgage.

And to make 'matters' more interesting loaded McAffee's 2003 version of their anti-virus program last night and it "ate" AOL, or should that be "sol" ability to access the internet. Working off a neighbors old computer. Understanding neighbors (he's a fisherman) is God's Gift.

With everything I own, short of two suit cases of closes and a few boxes of "no way's!!!" in storrage life is getting more than interesting. Old COO's wonderful line was from the Chinese Curse "may you live in interesting times." Terry was a Sage; but who would know when you're snug as a bug in a rug?

Sheesh.

Tomorrow, off to the web sites on your PM to get re-educated.
:confused:

Sorry my spelling, etc., is well off the mark tonight (so what's different?) Every intention of getting totally "plotted" this evening. Had it up to here with BS this past couple of weeks. Anyone else been there/done that?

Don't answer that question.:eek:

Smolt
12-04-2002, 10:25 PM
PM,

I will take you up on your kind offer. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to contact you via this board's "private message" function. How do I get in touch with you? I am trying to figure out how to send you my email address without posting it for all to see. It is now past my bedtime. Hopefully, I can figure this out tomorrow morning.

Regards,

Smolt

pmflyfisher
12-05-2002, 09:03 AM
Smolt,

My private message box is full I will clean it out and then you can send. Try again tonight.

PM

Willie Gunn
12-05-2002, 02:42 PM
Christmas, but the question is which Christmas.

How can you tell when the builder is lying?

His lips move.

Here's the pooch at the end of the fly tying season


http://www.hund.ch/jpg/xolo2.jpg

fredaevans
12-05-2002, 03:24 PM
Sounds like 'things' are the same regardless of which side of the pond you live on.
fae

And I just KNEW I was right about your dogs!!!!
:tsk_tsk:

pmflyfisher
12-05-2002, 04:29 PM
What kind of dogs are those ? Are these the ones the Garry Dog AS fly will be constructed from? Poor little fellows:chuckle:

fredaevans
12-05-2002, 05:53 PM
and now you all know why his pooch(s) slink into far dark corners of the room when (t)he(y) spot Dr. "M" with a pair of scissors in his hand. The "fear factor" must be huge as they started out as long haired Collies.

Where's PETA when you need them?:devil:
fae

pmflyfisher
12-05-2002, 11:44 PM
Oh no my family is talking about buying two dogs a husky and a retriever. I don't think I have a vote in this between the wife and the boys.

Just hope they have some long hair for you know what? :D

Willie Gunn
12-06-2002, 01:52 PM
pmflyfisher,
This is what you want

http://www.grreat.org/grreatimages/Molly_small.jpg

Thats what they look like at the start of the fly tying season. Of course its not cruel the hair soon grows back:devil:

Garry Dog, It is also known by other names Minister's Golden or Yellow Dog.

Invented by John Wright, the son of the famous James Wright of Sprounston,
This pattern is reputed to have been born in a tackle shop where a visiting minister or preist was asked for some hair from his accompanying Golden Retriever’s tail. This was used to form part of the wing of a fly being tied in the premises. Nowadays a substitute of yellow bucktail or similar hair is used for this part of the wing. The name of the dog was supposedly Garry hence the name Garry dog. Others say it was the ministers name hence Garry’s dog.
One of Scotland's most popular flies, the Garry dog is rated in all rivers but particularly those that carry a dark peat strain.

Malcolm

nbrandon
12-06-2002, 02:54 PM
One of Scotland's most popular flies, the Garry dog is rated in all rivers but particularly those that carry a dark peat strain.

Malcolm

I've often read about Scottish anglers choosing their flies based on the color of the water. Eg. A Green Highlander would be used in rivers with a green tinted riverbed.

Do you find this increases your chances? I guess i'm trying to figure out the logic behind the color choice. The mantra that is repeated in flyshops in the US is "dark day, dark fly" and not much more. Maybe there's something to learn here?

Neil

pmflyfisher
12-06-2002, 03:30 PM
Malcolm

Thanks for the history, perhaps as part of the hair wing swap we should have each tyer provide the history of the fly they tied if the fly is one of the established classics.

Lets see we have 8 announced participants doing the following patterns:

Garry Dog (Willie Gunn),
Thunder & Lighting (Nbrandon),
Mcneeses Pale Peril (Flytyer)
Smolt, Fred Evans, Steelheader69, Pmflyfisher and Wrke patterns are to be determined/announced. Wrke good luck on finding the history on that russian AS pattern.

Looking for two more participants to make the 10.

Smolt
12-06-2002, 03:46 PM
I fish the Miramichi River for atlantic salmon on New Brunswick more than any other river. That river is tannin stained, I.e. brown rather than green, yet the most successful flies in the Summer usually have a sugnificant amount of green in them -- the ubiquitous "Green Machine", the "Green Widow", the "Black Bear Green Butt" to list just three examples. In the Fall the river is still tannin stained, but the most successful flies are predominantly orange, copper, yellow, or red -- the "Copper Killer", the "Chief", the "LT Special". Maybe its the color of the leaves. Ah, the mysteries of life!

nbrandon
12-06-2002, 03:55 PM
If you're keen on letting me use "Mallard hair", then i'll tie the T&L. Otherwise i'll tie the Cascade. Both are great patterns.

Is there a set hook size?

Neil

pmflyfisher
12-06-2002, 04:10 PM
I propose a size 4 or 6 in an upturned classic salmon hook of the tyers choice.

Hows that ?

Otherwise lets do size 2 since I have about 150 of them yet to use. :devil:

Smolt
12-06-2002, 04:28 PM
PM,

If it all right with you, I would like to change the fly that I will tie for the Swap to the "Green Widow". Its a good atlantic salmon fly and, based on its shape, might be good for western steelhead as well. Even more important is that I have a good story associated with that fly.

Regards,

Charles

pmflyfisher
12-07-2002, 09:30 PM
Charles,

No problem, and green is a great color for steelhead flies in the GL and PNW. Never forget in 1986 I was on business in Vancouver, BC stopped at Ruddicks fly shop in Burnaby several times the three weeks I was there. Got to fish only one day for steelhead but I showed the owner and one of the guides my great lakes fly walletts and I can still remember the look in their eyes when they saw all of the chartreuse (fluor green) colored flies. In their fly cases they had none, all were the traditional red, orange, purple, black that pervaded the PNW flies at that time. They went out and started trying green.

Hal

ashley
12-08-2002, 04:13 PM
Hal
count me in.
I'll be doing Willie gunns if I can get some size 2 hooks

Ashley

Gardener
12-09-2002, 05:23 AM
If you're still looking for a tenth participant I'll join the fly swap, just to ensure full representation from this side of the Atlantic! I'll tie more or less anything you like, but was thinking about a Scandinavian-style post-winged fly tied with arctic fox (as shown in last month's Flyfishing and Flytying magazine, if anyone reads that). It seems to me that you guys don't use Arctic fox much, which is surprising, as it's as fantastic material. Assume you want single hooks?

Neil, on the subject of fly colours for different waters, I've always understood that the Green Highlander was developed for use in rivers carrying a bit of snow-melt (ie green tinge). This might explain its popularity in Norway. Russia and to some extent the rivers of the very north of Scotland (Helmsdale, Brora etc), but its limited effectiveness elsewhere. I have an aversion to it, but this is just prejudice, as I've never given it a fair trial!

Charlie

pmflyfisher
12-09-2002, 07:44 AM
Okay we have ten participants.

Will send out the instructions this week.

Gardener

Yes I bought that magazine this week. Saw the article on Arctic Fox looks like great material. Not sure if we get it here in the states though. At least my local fly shops do not seem to ever stock it. Would love to see one of those flys.

Tie your fly on a size 2, 4, or 6 hook.

Tie 11 flys one for each participant and one extra for the fly meister (Pmflyfisher)

More to come

Best

Hal

Smolt
12-09-2002, 10:05 AM
In the Chicago area, I believe Arctic Fox is available at Trout & Grouse in Northfield, as well as at Fly & Filed in Glen Ellyn. I have never used it, but it looks interesting.

pmflyfisher
12-09-2002, 11:18 AM
Smolt,

Thanks I used to shop a lot at Fly and Field and then the owner changed so I now go to One More Cast - Country Side for just about all of my fly tying material. Been meaning to stop in Fly and Field again though.

PM

pmflyfisher
12-09-2002, 11:19 AM
Is anybody going to tie on doubles ?

I was thinking of doing that, have not tied those in a long time.

Smolt
12-09-2002, 11:33 AM
I tie virtually all the flies I use to fish for atlantic salmon on double hooks. I can tie on doubles if that is preferred. If anyone who wants their fly tied on a double posts that preference, I will tie doubles for those persons and singles for those who do not post. Personally, I prefer that my flies be tied on doubles if that is something the other tyers are willing to do. So long as we are listing preferences, I also prefer flies tied on size 6 hooks or smaller.

nbrandon
12-09-2002, 11:57 AM
Smolt,

Make mine a double. Har har har.

Neil

Gardener
12-09-2002, 12:34 PM
Hal, I'd be happy to tie doubles for anyone, and/or to receive them in return - I normally prefer to use them - but it's no big deal either way. I was under the impression that singles were the norm over there, though. I can also tie whatever size anyone wants, but I'm conscious that if we all start ordering 'off menu' it'll make a lot more work for you when dispatching. It's up to you.

wrke
12-09-2002, 01:37 PM
I will tie doubles. Regarding Arctic Fox, it's a hair that I use quite a bit. Soft and flowing, it's a durable wing with lots of movement. Ususally comes dyed in many colors. My tube fly will be quite different from most but won't use Arctic Fox. You'll just have to wait and see.
Bill

flytyer
12-09-2002, 01:46 PM
PMflyfisher,

I used artic fox a lot when I was tying commercially. It is a great hair to use for any hairwing fly. In fact. I will be using it on the Pale Perils I will be tying for the fly swap. I buy it buy the whole tail in either natural white or dyed black. If you want some, it should be easy for you to find at most of the fly shops here in Washington and Oregon. Bachman probably has some in stock at his, and he is a sponser. Kaufmann's probably has it as well, another sponser.

Willie Gunn
12-09-2002, 02:53 PM
My new vise has arrived in time for Christmas.

Does anyone have instructions for the Dyna King Baracuder on DVD as we no longer have a video player. The last one ate its last tape months ago.

How does the bobbin hanger work, I think I have figured out the rest, neat toy.

Malcolm

flytyer
12-09-2002, 04:22 PM
Willie Gunn,

The bobbin rest (or more accurately boobin hanger) is very easy to use. Simply set the bobbin rest collar for it on the vise stem so that the bobbin rest is at a convenient height for yourself and your tying. Then lock it in that position with the set screw. After thing the bobbin rest is only placed into position when you need to use it by simply rotating it into position to hold the bobbin.

I have been using Baracuda for nearly 6 years and the only time I use the bobbin rest is when tying things like wooley bugger body or face hackle. The rest of the time I simply remove the bobbin rest from the collar on the vise stem to keep in out of my way.

I'm sure you are going to enjoy your Baracuda vise.

Smolt
12-09-2002, 04:53 PM
I too very seldom use the bobbin (rest, hanger, cradle). I have had three diffierent rotary vises and found that with all three of them -- two Renzetti vises and a Barracuda -- it is just more comfortable to tie without using the hanger.

pmflyfisher
12-09-2002, 06:04 PM
Yes I also never use the bobbin on my Renzetti. Maybe we should be though for some things. I don't even think I can find my instruction book though have had it about 7-8 years or so (Renzetti Traveller, with pedestal)

OK, I will tie doubles also.

If any one does not want to receive doubles or feels they cannot find them for the tie please advise.

I would prefer doubles my self. Think I can still use them in Michigan but need to check.

flytyer
12-09-2002, 06:07 PM
Guys,

Doubles are not allowed on any of the Washington state rivers that are "selective gear rules' or the few that are "fly fishing only".

Willie Gunn
12-10-2002, 12:24 PM
I just bought 50 size 4 singles for this swap, now I find you are all wanting doubles. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

If you don't decide soon I'll tie them on outpoint trebles a grand holding Scottish hook.


Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-10-2002, 12:30 PM
Sounds like the doubles are not a good idea for some while singles can be used by every one.

So lets do singles then.

Hows that for responsive decision making by the fly swap meister ?

Smolt
12-14-2002, 09:38 AM
My flies are tied and, subject to final inspection, ready to go. Let me know where to send them and how much return postage you want enclosed with them.

Best Regards,

Charles

pmflyfisher
12-14-2002, 09:59 AM
Smolt (Charles)

Will post my address, no money for postage is needed to be sent.

Keep them in final inspection for a while, I am afraid if you send them to me now I may misplace them.

Nothing like putting pressure on us other tyers.

I have another swap to do before this one but am ready to select my pattern and go at it.

Hey Fred, did you determine what hair wing pattern you are going to do ? and please no Otis Bug hair wings if they should exist out there.

Rogue - Red Ant sounds cool to me from the Rogue Spey Master himself.:smokin:

PM Out

pmflyfisher
12-16-2002, 06:52 PM
Looks like a couple of our participants have there flys ready EARLY, yes that is hard to believe.

Here are the instructions:

- The 10 Participants are: Fred Evans, Steelheader69, Smolt, Flytyer, Willie Gunn, Ashley, Wrke, Gardener, NBrandon, and Pmflyfisher.

- Tie any hair wing salmon or steelhead pattern you like see what the others are tying in above thread. I will be tying one of the AS rat hair wings. Fred is tying one of his own concoctions.

- Tie on a size 2,4,or 6 single hook, no doubles

- Tie a total of 11 flies, one for each of the 10 tyers and an extra one for the fly swap meister (me)

- Due date is January 31, 2003 (If they all come in earlier I will sent them out as soon as all nine participants flys have been received by me)

- Include tying instructions and materials.

- Include any specific history of the fly you tie how it was originated and is best used etc..

- PM me with your home address and make sure it is on your envelope of flies to me.

- Send the flies to the following address:

Hal Eckert
5504 W. Oak Center Drive
Oak Lawn, IL USA
60453

Good tying and have a great holiday season !

PM Out

Steelheader69
12-16-2002, 09:49 PM
You had to open it to a general salmon/steelhead tying thing didn't you. Now you reopened the flood gates on what I can tie. Hmmmmm. Was about to sit down to the bench and tie up some AS flies I had seen. But feel more comfortable tying something I use.

Will have them done this weekend and in mail, with the usual few extra I always send. :D

fredaevans
12-16-2002, 10:00 PM
SmoltMeister and I have already got ours done and ready to bag and send off to Hal. Too bad he's still resting on his laurels, not at his tieing bench.
:smokin:

nbrandon
12-17-2002, 08:14 AM
Check your math on the number of flies.

Neil

pmflyfisher
12-17-2002, 08:15 AM
fyi

I forgot a couple of things in the above post on the swap instructions so I edited it.

Check it out.

Pm Out

P.S. First ones in with their flys to PM will be placed in the special drawing for one of my super secret steelhead flies.:cool:

Willie Gunn
12-17-2002, 02:29 PM
Hal,
What chance of I got getting my flies in first, I have "the pond" to cross, these rules are harder than the Americas Cup.

Malcolm

fredaevans
12-17-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Is anybody going to tie on doubles ?

I was thinking of doing that, have not tied those in a long time.

Waddington Shanks. Will include a bit of tubing for you to 'attach' you hook. I run the leader through the top eye of the Waddington, down the side of the fly, and out the back loop. Slip on the bit of tubeing, tie on your choice of hook, slip the tubeing/hook on to the Waddington ... just like you'd do a tube fly. Sounds like a 'strange system' but the hook-ups are as solid as hitting a wall at a dead run. During the summer season I never missed a hook up using this 'Rube Goldberg' arrangement.

I've tied up a new pattern ala The StrubMeister. Calling it the "101" as I expected to use it on the Chetco (storms blew that idea all to heck) and Hwy 101 runs over the river. Also a bit of a take on the 101's Airborne's motto.
fae

fredaevans
12-17-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by nbrandon
Check your math on the number of flies.

Neil

Neil, now you know why the average man 'fears' Atty's. The devil is in the fine print .... e.g. Hal gets an extra, extra fly.:devil:

pmflyfisher
12-17-2002, 08:26 PM
Malcolm

Air express over night can be done to Chicago. You could still be one of the first, thats if you figured out how to use that new vise yet.:devil:

Smolt could drive his over to my house he is so close, and forget Fred with that mail system he has through his company, it always takes an extra 3 days to arrive, probably 5-6 days from Oregon to Chicago, where it should be 2-3 days.

PM Out

Steelheader69
12-18-2002, 12:32 AM
My flies are done. Message me your address and I'll have in mail.

Jerry

fredaevans
12-18-2002, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Steelheader69
My flies are done. Message me your address and I'll have in mail.

Jerry

of page FOUR of this thread. Along with all his addl. Atty like RULES. These folks should not be allowed to play with a number 2 pencil. :>)
fae

Willie Gunn
12-18-2002, 04:10 PM
Hal,
Flies in a package slightly smaller than Saddam Hussains dossier is mid atlantic as I type. Get your fork lift down to the nearest airport.


Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-18-2002, 08:02 PM
I will be watching for all incoming strange looking packages.

Stopped by the fly shop today and got the materials needed for my pattern.

Does every one like the color green in their flys ? How about a Green Rat hair wing.

PM Out

Smolt
12-18-2002, 09:14 PM
PM,

Green is fine for me. If you are available for lunch tomorrow or Friday, let me know. I suggest that we meet at RAM in Schaumberg. I'll buy and deliver my flies at the same time.

Charles

fredaevans
12-18-2002, 10:14 PM
Airborne overnight bag to get beat out by a "local." And you're going to buy him lunch at a good restaraunt .... the Payolla is in guys. So question of the hour (more or much less) is does Hal take bribes?:razz:

Next post or two on the fly swap will tell all.
:smokin:

DFix
12-19-2002, 09:27 AM
I have that contact name you wanted in the Chicago FBI office - he's VERY INTERESTED in this 'payola' agreement :devil: :smokin:

Smolt
12-19-2002, 09:59 AM
Okay, okay, I will disqualify myself from the nymph "competition". I do, however, want to point out that I was the first to announce that my flies were finished and ask for mailing instructions.

Since PM has not responded yet to my invitation and since the weather here in Chicagoland has been quite balmy for mid-December, I am hoping PM is on his way to fishing one of the GL tribs. When we do get together, he may have some stories to tell -- at least I hope he does.

Best to all,

CK

pmflyfisher
12-19-2002, 03:04 PM
SMOLT (Charles)

I just got back to this thread and saw your invitation to lunch. Been busy with work, family dog search, and shopping the last couple of days etc.. Any one of the next two weeks on Thursday or Friday I could do that. Would love to meet some one in the flesh from the forumn. I mean after almost 2000 posts its about time. MJYP (Mark) will be in the flesh soon I suspect. Fred and others will have to wait for a while longer though.

Charles let me know, shoot me a PM or email.

BTW the RAM in addition to the brews has an excellent bread pudding desert. :hehe:

Best

PM Out

pmflyfisher
12-19-2002, 06:57 PM
FROM MR. EVANS - AN ORIGINAL FROM THE ROGUE SPEY MASTER

Must be a new record,flys arriving 5 weeks in advance of the due date. Hope I do not get tempted to use them but I just might want to give one a swim.

As soon as others have arrived will get them out to every one.

I think I had better start tying myself.

Happy Holidays to all !!

PM Out

wrke
12-19-2002, 07:09 PM
You guys are putting me to shame!! I'm visiting family in Oregon for Christmas and my fly tying material is 3000 miles away! Flies will be there before the deadline, but not this early. I plan on having an enjoyable, relaxing Christmas. I wish you all the same.
Bill

fredaevans
12-19-2002, 10:22 PM
As Hal has sent me a lot of 'winner's' to test on the Rogue, I'll just take a bow from the waist ...

He may be an Atty, but somewhere in that stone cold heart beats the 'heart' of a fly guy. "#2" will be pleased with the results.




Originally posted by pmflyfisher
FROM MR. EVANS - AN ORIGINAL FROM THE ROGUE SPEY MASTER

Must be a new record,flys arriving 5 weeks in advance of the due date. Hope I do not get tempted to use them but I just might want to give one a swim.

As soon as others have arrived will get them out to every one.

I think I had better start tying myself.

Happy Holidays to all !!

PM Out :D

pmflyfisher
12-20-2002, 06:48 AM
Bill - WRKE

Don't worry Bill relax and have a great holiday I am the same as you not started tying these hair wings yet but now I know what I am going to tie and have the materials and hooks. Actually have 2 other small swaps to tie for prior to this one.

BTW, I still have dreams about those russian atlantics, some day I am going to get there. That would have my vote for this years forumn dream trip and fish of the year.

Look forward to your russian AS hair wing pattern, take your time.

PM OUt

pmflyfisher
12-22-2002, 09:29 AM
Well mine are in progress now that I got the last remaining material needed from my fly shop yesterday.

Its going to be an atlantic salmon "Rusty Rat" style pattern but with modifications for steelhead. Three tied, and they are sure pretty.

PM Out

pmflyfisher
12-22-2002, 05:44 PM
Hey Fred,

Tied a few more today of my "Rat" Pattern, they are looking so good think I will enter them in that FQSA World Salmon Fly Tying contest that is listed in another thread. :chuckle::chuckle:

Complex to tie though I am going all out this time to move to take the tying to a higher level, you know to please human eyes not fish eyes.

Clean out your PM inbox also.

Gotta go back to tying now will check on your incisive responses later tonight.

PM Out

BTW, it feels great to be in the 2,000+ post club :razz: :razz:

pmflyfisher
12-23-2002, 06:03 PM
Smolt (Charles)

Confirming receipt of your files to day so thats two tyers received to date.

I tied a similar pattern to it which I probably got out of the book you mentioned in your note. K. Fulsher and C. Krom - AS Hair Wing Flys.

Very interesting story Charles has with this fly which we will have to share with the other tyers. I can type it up with a picture of the fly later from Charle's detailed note to me.

Fred,

How to you put hooks on those waddinton shanks ? I will need a t least a 9 weight to throw those double shanks.

PM Out

P.S. I have 7 tied but 2 will not make my quality control inspection so I will have to do them over. The flawed ones will become those flys one does not mind dredging through a deep log jam infested hole.

Smolt
12-24-2002, 09:05 AM
PM,

No need to re-type my experience with the fly. I will email it to you.

Happy Holidays to all,

CK

pmflyfisher
12-24-2002, 10:42 AM
Willie Gunn - (Malcolm)

Garry Dogs have arrived in good order from Scotland.

A very nice Chritmas eve arrival, they look excellent, just like the pictures in the books.

Merry Christmas

PM Out

wrke
01-02-2003, 11:26 AM
Flies will be mailed today. They're a different size than suggested, but there's a reason for it.
Bill

fredaevans
01-02-2003, 11:44 AM
"Fred,

How to you put hooks on those waddinton shanks ? I will need a t least a 9 weight to throw those double shanks. "

To put you all in context, I tied the same pattern but on three different length Waddington Shanks.

I'm sure there's more that 'one way.' but what I do (waddingtons have a turned up eye at the TOP end of the hook, and a flat eye at the hook end) is run the leader through the top eye, down the side of the fly and out the bottom eye. Slip leader through a short piece of tubing (ala a tube fly hook attachment) tie on the hook and slide the tubeing/hook on/over the bottom eye in the hook.

Sounds a bit Rube Goldberg but the leader, fly, hook all stay in place as pretty as you please. And you'll miss darned few takes with this arrangement.

All the Waddingtons will allow you to 'open' the lower eye and insert a hook prior to tieing the fly. But this has never been my preferrence as the hook just gets in my way when working with the vice.
fae

pmflyfisher
01-02-2003, 01:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification I tried to open the bottom eye but could not find the opening, now I no why you tied over it.

Is this the conventional way of rigging of waddingtons shanks or the oregonian non conventional way ?:chuckle:

Just wondering you know I am such a fly fishing purist.:razz:

PM Out

fredaevans
01-02-2003, 03:19 PM
Willie, what's the preference on your side of the Pond?
fae

Willie Gunn
01-02-2003, 04:08 PM
Fred,
I usually tie mine in a way so I can open up the lower end and slip on a treble, I then squeeze it up again and slide on a piece of rubber tube. It is becoming more common to use them as you describe. The advantage of having the hook attached is you can change a fly with cold hands without risking dropping the hook or fly in the water. The disadvantage is you have to have a hook on every fly so it is more expensive.

If you are tying with the hook on put an elastic band round the vice and tuck the hook under the band.

Hope this helps

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
01-02-2003, 06:54 PM
Flytyer (Russ),

Confirming receipt of the Pale Perils today.

NICE !!

I don't think I ever tied on a # 5 or # 7 hook since my local fly shops tend to carry only even number sizes. I will check when I am their next time.

Thanks Russ

PM Out

fredaevans
01-02-2003, 08:52 PM
Only one's of that sort I've heard of were the Alex Jacksons. Whose hooks were these?
fae

pmflyfisher
01-02-2003, 09:11 PM
They are Alec Jacksons, learn something every day around here.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-02-2003, 11:15 PM
Sparky, any others out there you know of in "half sizes?" Actually, an interesting question:

Anyone know why Johnson went with the half sizes?
fae

A "ps:" Post popped up on page 5 of this thread. Have zero idea where this thing started, but by 5 full pages of posts I'd guess it's been everywhere but where it started. (91 posts, almost 1,000 reviews) LOVE THIS BOARD!
:D

(Cohocola (Great sign in name!): a 're-welcome' to the Board. Start something and God only knows where it will end up. Enough of ragging on you.):hehe:
fae

flytyer
01-02-2003, 11:34 PM
Fred, and Pmflyfisher,

There are tied on Alec Jackson Spey Hooks #7 with a blue finish (Hal remember when I posted a bit back about the Daiichi clue finish hooks being the color of a fine shotgun's bluing?). Alec has his hooks (which are made to his specs by Daiichi, and carry the Daiichi model number of 2059 in blue, 2051 in black, 2052 in nickel, and 2055 in glod) sized in the odd sizes to distinguish them from other hooks. His #7 hooks are really #6's, the #5's are #4's, the #3 are #2's the #1 1/2's are #1/0's, and the #3/0's are 5/0's. It is really a branding thing for Alec. They are my favorite spey hook, they have the perfect proportions. I use the nickel ones for tying speys that have florescent floss bodies because I can eliminate the underbody of silver tinsel, which speeds up the tying considerably to about a dozen/hour.

Alec also is selling a gorgeous true low water hook he calls the River Dee Low Water (they are the same hook Bob Veverka sells as Veverka's Low Water Hook). Alec sizes them as #9, #7, #5, #3; Veverka and Daiichi (who makes them) size them as #8, #6, #4, #2. This Dee Low Water Hook (Daiichi model 2139 in the blue finish, model 2131 in black, and 2035 in gold) is my favorite summer run hook.

I buy both the Alec Jackson Spey Hooks and River Dee Low Water hooks buy the thousands from Alec, who lives just north of Seattle.

Alec is also selling a beautiful heavy wire version of his spey hook in size #3. It makes a very nice and heavy General Practitioner. Another heavy wire hook Alec sells is the Daiichi model 2161. It ia a standard length salmon iron that has a slightly humped shank and a turned up eye. A very nice hook to tie standard flies for winter/spring/early summer on. I only wish they were available in size 1/0 and 3/0. Alas, they are offered no larger than a size #1 (no, that is not a typo, there really is a size 1 salmon hook standard, we just don't see them very often because the are only a little larger than a #2).

Hal , glad you like the Pale Perils.

pmflyfisher
01-06-2003, 02:36 PM
Lets learn some hair wing history. Might as well learn some fly fishing history during this fly swap.

Who knows the origins of hair wing salmon and steelhead flies ?

PM Out

P.S. The fly swap participant that provides the first correct answer to my empirical sources will be awarded some special flies from me.

Please quote your sources of information in your answer.

Willie Gunn
01-06-2003, 03:38 PM
Cost,
In 1937 fully dressed salmon flies cost 0.11p - 0.20p Britsh money roughly $0.15 -$0.30 A recruit in the army was paid 0.37p/week or $0.51.

Hair flies vwere easier and cheaper to dress.

My 0.02 cents worth.

Malcolm

Smolt
01-06-2003, 03:50 PM
If I remember correctly (from reading, not from first-hand experience), when fly fishing for salmon found its way to Canada -- I believe in the mid-to late 1800's, guides were left beat-up full-dressed flies by their sports. The guides saved the hooks and, not having the exotic feathers originally used to tie full-dressed flies, used various types of hair that were available to them. Using hair produced very effective, easy to tie, inexpensive flies. North American tyers thereafter developed both flies based upon traditional full-dressed patterns and original hairwing patterns as well.

As for quotes from my sources, that will have to wait until this evening when I can refer to my books on the subject.

fredaevans
01-06-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Willie Gunn
Cost,
In 1937 fully dressed salmon flies cost 0.11p - 0.20p Britsh money roughly $0.15 -$0.30 A recruit in the army was paid 0.37p/week or $0.51.

Hair flies vwere easier and cheaper to dress.

My 0.02 cents worth.

Malcolm

Well, considering my after tax(s) income ... not much has changed. Other than it's pay by the hours rather than by the week. But then I don't get room, board, clothing and don't get to play with neat guns and stuff.:D
fae

Willie Gunn
01-06-2003, 05:32 PM
Fred,
If they are paying you more than 2 steelhead flies a week you are well overpaid.:chuckle:

You might not get the guns to play with but they lend you a computer.:chuckle:

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
01-06-2003, 07:48 PM
Wrke (Bill) ,

Confirming receipt of your Terry's Terror flies today. A micro riffling hitch russian atlantic salmon tube fly. Responsible for a 44 lb salmon and many others. You can read the rest in Bills excellent write up on the fly which will be provided to each of you. God I have to get to Russia some day !

Gardener

Got your PM suspect the flies are in transit over the big pond now to me. Will confirm when received.


Willie Gunn and Smolt

I see your responses on the history of hair wings will wait another day or two for others or more info. Then give what my empirical sources state.


Pm Out

flytyer
01-06-2003, 09:21 PM
Pmflyfisher,

There were hair wing salmon flies around before the full-dressed feather wings of the mid to late 1900's (the Victorian era). Blacker talks about this in his book "How to Dress Salmon Flies" copy write 1855. Bates speaks of and has a picture of an old hair wing salmon fly from the early 1800's or late 1700's in his books on salmon flies.

Then there is the article in the winter 2002 issue of American Angler (the current issue) on the history of fly fishing and flies. It seems that hair wing flies were used for trout and salmon prior to the birth of Christ. And it had nothing to do with whether hair wings were more effective than feather wings, it had everything to do with the skill of the tyer and availablity of the materials to tie the flies.

And as Malcolm also said, it has to do with the cost of the full-dressed feather wings as well. However, the biggest factor is still the skill of the average tyer. Most people who tie flies only care that the flies catch fish, not how nice it looks or how well it is put together. Also, most people do not want to put the time in at the vise to learn good basic technique and then put in even more vise time to learn how to do each of the various tying steps and techniques required of a full-dressed feather wing fly. There are no shortcuts to tying well made and well proportioned feather wings, nor for well made and well proportioned hair wings either. It is just a whole lot easier to tie a bunch of hair in as a wing than to tie in a feather wing so that it sits properly.

Hal,

This really is a fine question to ask of those who participate in the forum. Most people have no idea how old the hair wing flies really are.

pmflyfisher
01-07-2003, 09:23 AM
Thanks, I will see what my sources can add to the above responses.

PM Out

Smolt
01-07-2003, 10:30 AM
From "Hair-Wing Atlantic Salmon Flies" by Keith Fulsher and Charles Krom (1981), Chapter 1 -- The Origin and Development of Hair-Wing Atlantic Salmon Flies, pages 10-13:

"[H]ow and when did the hair-wing originate? Where did it come from? Who developed it? These are questions surrounded by deep mystery because there are no clear cut answers to them. . . .

It seems quite reasonable to assume that the first salmon taken on by fly fishers were caught on trout flies and to some drgree ancient angling literature backs this up. But vague references to salmon fly dressings started to turn up in books published in England as early as the mid-seventeenth century with Thomas Barker's book "Barker's Delight" leading the way. . . . Early salmon flies were large with very generous feathered wings . . . . [T]he salmon fly became firmly established as an art form, reaching a peak during the late 1800's with complicated built-wing patterns. . . . Then Chaytor and Crossfield in the early 1900's led a revolt against the classic heavily dressed opaque salmon flies by simplifying patterns down to bare essentials . . . slim bodies with simple feather wings. . . . [I]t was at about that time. late 1800's to early 1900's that the hair-wing made its appearance.

. . . The hair-wing is generally considered to be an original product of North America, having had its roots in the great salmon rivers that flow into the Atlantic ocean along the Northeastern coast of the continent. But there are those that disagree. Some anglers feel that the hair-wing salmon fly is a dsescendent of the West coast trout fly. Certainly, West coast steelhead patterns have a lot in common with salmon hair-wings . . . . And the initial steelhead flies were tied and used in the very early 1900's, therefore the timing is right. However, it is fairly well documentd that those first steelhead flies, like early salmon flies, were very slight modifications of standard trout patterns. In those times developments in fly tying traveled from East to West, so it seems reasonable to assume that the use of hair for winging was originated by Atlantic salmon fishewrmaen and later the technique was carried west, where it was adopted for steelhead flies. . . .

Most discussions, concerning the origin of the salmon hair-wing recognize only two possibilities. First, that the hair-wing is an entirely new concept in tying a salmon fly that was independently developed since the very late 1700's in Eastern Canada. No real basis for this theory can be found. The second hypothesis states that the hair-wing is an off-shoot from the old English featyer wing patterns and tha the Americans and Canadians were the first to tie them . . . around the turn of the century. Not much can be found to support this theory either but if you go strictly by logic and the evidence that is available . . . the second theory [seems] the accurate one.

There are two ways the classic had its influence on the development of the hair-wing. First, when immigrants from Britain, who were salmon fishers and fly tyers, arrived on the Northeastern coast of North America, they no doubt had among their possessions some of the old classic patterns. . . . [T]he fancy feathers needed to make more of those flies were not available in their new homeland and so they turned to materials that were more easily obtainable. Animal hair was a natural. . . . Secondly . . . . [o]ccassionally, flies were given to local guides . . . [and] some guides started to tie their own replacements after the gifts were lost or no longer useable. But here again the tyers were faced with drawing from a limited supply of materials that could be easily acquired. Squirrel tails, bear hair, and hair from domestic animals filled the need nicely.

It is possible and quite likely that both of these hair-wing development procedures were going on at the same time and it's certain that there was an interchange of information among anglers that hurried the process along. . . ."

A similar history can be found in Joe Bates book, "Fishing for Atantic Salmon", as well as in his daughter's supplement, "Fishing Atlantic Salmon, the Flies and the Patterns".

That's it. My fingers are tired.

CK

Smolt
01-07-2003, 11:47 AM
My apologies for the typos.

flytyer
01-07-2003, 02:19 PM
Although it is very romantic to think that hair wings came after feather wings, history of fishing flies says otherwise. It amazes me how many of the modern (those who have written about this since 1900) writers say that hairwings are a relatively recent development. Hair wings are in fact products of antiquity. the first flies did not have hackle, they were simple affairs composed of hiar wings and wool bodies.

And it was these simple hair wing flies that were first cast upon the water with a fishing rod that had the line attached to to top of the rod. the rods had no line guides nor were reels or winches for holding fishing line invented when folks first began to fish for salmon.

It reminds of all the nonsense that has been written about George Kelson by people who never read his great opus "The Salmon Fly". Let us all keep in mind that just because a "famous or well-known" author (such as Krom) has written something it doesn't make it accurate.

Paul Schulery (the foremost fly fishing historian of our day) has clearly stated in the current issue of "American Angler" that hairwing flies are form antiquity. I highly recommend people avail themselves of his fine scholarship on the subject of hair wings and origin of fly fishing in aforementioned issue of "American Angler".

Smolt
01-07-2003, 02:41 PM
I don't think Fulsher and Krom are saying that hair-wings came after feather wings. I interpret their position to be that hair-wing SALMON flies came after feather wing SALMON flies. I think they acknowledge that hair-wing trout flies were used before salmon flies were "the rage" and, most likely caught a few salmon. They may be wrong, but I certainly can't say one way or the other.

I will pick up the American Angler to which Flytyer referred. I am sure the article will be very interesting.

CK

pmflyfisher
01-07-2003, 04:19 PM
Wow we have some great historical information and discussion on hair wing history.

Keep it coming

If I can extract myself from my present exigenic California law issues tonight I will try and add something to it.

PM Out

Smolt
01-07-2003, 04:38 PM
"The important thing is not when or where or by whom hairwings were first conceived, but rather that they have helped revolutionize modern concepts in salmon fishing." "Fishing Atlantic Salmon, the Flies and the Patterns", by the two Bates at 92.

Plate 33 in that book shows a fly called "The Owenmore" described as a "Mohair Mane Fly, Circa 1850". The wing seems to be comprised of mohair and some feathers.

fredaevans
01-07-2003, 07:32 PM
100+ posts and 1200 reads.

A new contest???
:smokin:

pmflyfisher
01-07-2003, 08:17 PM
Yes, and the fly swap is not even over yet.

BTW, props on post 1,800 ! :smokin:

PM Out

fredaevans
01-07-2003, 08:28 PM
Oh my God! Only an Atty. with know this kind of stuff. Now your at 1209. :D And counting. Will have to go back and check the #'s for the first Charity Spey Clave (DON'T FORGET GUYS/GALS # 2 IS COMING UP SHORTLY!), maybe not the biggest, but darned close.

Similar format for this year with (Dr.) Way and Steve, super food, libations, ( Good wine with Saturday's dinner is on Joanie and I) etc., all included in the base cost. This year we've also got the BobMeister, ' The Master Rod Builder,' joining the 'facilitator group.' Builds a hell of a custom rod; and you'll be one of 'the Chosen, The Few, The etc., to put your hands on these Puppies.

Suspect he takes credit cards; and a Board Spon. to boot. :devil:

All kidding aside, they are truly beautiful rods. (I'm sucking up here so maybe he'll give 'a deal' when "The Joan" isn't looking.)
fae

flytyer
01-08-2003, 12:18 AM
Chaytor and Crossfield did not start a revolution in slamon flies through there use of simple strip wing flies in 1900. these type of flies were in use lopng before either one of them was born. Kelson, Blacker, Francis Francis, Scrope, Hale,. Hardy, and Maxwell all spoke of using simple strip wing flies and all gave many recipes for them as well.

Blacker in both the 1842 and 1855 editions of "Art of Fly Making" list many simple strip wing flies that were composed of a tail, single material body, hackle at the shoulder only, and a strip wing. He spoke of using them on many rivers despite his having been considered at the time (he is still considered to have been one of the best) to have been the best tyer of gaudy wing (mixed or built wing) salmon flies.

Scrope in "Days and Nights of Salmon Fishing" circa 1843 had a color plate (one of the first full color plates in a fishing book), which is found between pages 156 and 157, that has six simple strip wing flies on it that he used most of the time and which were in general use at the time by salmon fishermen. All of them had wool tails, wool or dubbed bodies, hackle, and simple strip wings. They ranged from large to rather small in size (from aobut a 4/0 to 8) and he recommended the fisherman match the size of the fly to the water being fished.

These six flies had the following names: Kinmount Willie, The Lady of Mertown, Toppy (which Scrope sayshas been called this from time immemorial), Michael Scott, Meg with the Muckle Mouth, and Meg in her Braws. In fact, Scrope spoke about how successful flies actually imitated crustaceans, and this was why he had no use for the gaudy flies (the mixed or built wing flies) that were in use in Ireland; they did not imitate a crustacean. Clearly simple strip winged flies were in use long before Chaytor and Crossfield. And just as clearly there were salmon fishers in the mid 1800's who had already laid to rest the nonsense about salmon eating butterflies.

The Ownmore is a "maned fly" that Francis Francis in "the Book of the Salmon" circa 1867 said was a peculiar looking fly of a style that has been in general use on the Owenmore for many years. Mohair is angora goat's har, not underfur, the guard hair. this clearly makes the Owenmore and other "maned flies" from the early to mid 1800's hair wing salmon flies.

Hal,

Thanks for making me search my memory of fly tying history and also forcing me to go to my salmon fly books to make sure I don't ascribe something to the wrong author.

pmflyfisher
01-10-2003, 08:38 PM
5 Fly swap participants received:

Fred Evans, Wrke, Smolt, Flytyer, Willie Gunn

5 Fly Swap Participants Outstanding:

Pmflyfisher, Ashley, Steelheader69, Nbrandon, Gardener,

Due date to Pmflyfisher - January 31st.

See mailing address in the thread above.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-10-2003, 09:40 PM
Winter runs are starting to show in the upper Rogue; need new 'toys' to attack.
:devil:

pmflyfisher
01-13-2003, 06:35 PM
Steelheader 69 hair wings received today. Jerry looks like a black bear green butt ?

I see you like that black ice chenille also you can use that for a lot of different wets and nymphs.

Thanks for the two dee flies very nice, you are getting good at this stuff.

OK now we are down to four outstanding tyers:

Pmflyfisher - Me
Gardener - (beleive in transit over the big pond now)
Ashley
Nbrandon

PM Out

fredaevans
01-13-2003, 09:22 PM
Now two of the 4 I can understand ..... 12,000 miles away. But the "SwapMeister???" Ah the shame of it all.:razz:

pmflyfisher
01-13-2003, 10:18 PM
I know, but I had another fly swap (Simple but deadly) and Marlborough flies to get done. Plus the NFL football playoffs took some time away from tying the last couple of weeks.

Have 7 flys done ( I think), Will finish this weekend.

Then have to do the warm water swap flies and the Seattle show flies.

Plus I owe a couple of guys on the forumn some of my secret flies.

There may be something else I am forgetting, it will come to me.

Busy busy over here you know.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-14-2003, 01:20 AM
Ok Guys/Gals:

A new contest: No rules, we just have to make up the most... Oh, how shall we put this? .... "reasons??" for procrastination.

:devil:

Winner, or should that be looser, gets to take Hal fishing. Or should that questionable 'honor' go to the second place 'winner?' Kind of a 'first place is one week in Cleveland, Ohio; 2nd place gets two weeks ....' kind of thing.

:smokin:

PS: Does anybody need once used packing boxes???? Have about 80 already broken down and ready to 'recycle' in the garage. Which I can barely walk through. Still zero on finding the crates with pots/pans or silverware. This moving stuff is for the bloody birds.
:(

nbrandon
01-14-2003, 08:23 AM
I've got 7 done. I'll finish the rest this week.

As part of the wife's xmas present, I decided to replace the floor in the kitchen. After a couple days ripping stuff up, I took a break and tied a couple flies. Well, a busted up floor and a husband that's tying flies instead of working got me landed in the dog house. But the floor is done now, and i'm back to tying.

Neil

pmflyfisher
01-14-2003, 08:58 AM
OK, BTW, I have been putting off the kitchen floor tiles for 2 years now. :chuckle:

I think your tied with me for 7 flys completed.

PM Out

ashley
01-14-2003, 03:10 PM
Mine ARE finished and will be in the post at the end of the week.

pmflyfisher
01-14-2003, 04:28 PM
Excellent, now the pressure is on the outstanding people including me.

I love pressure and deadlines. :smokin:

PM Out

Salar-1
01-14-2003, 06:54 PM
Hi Hal
Just saw the thread.Wanna make it 11 ??
Cheers
Brian

pmflyfisher
01-14-2003, 07:13 PM
Salar-1 (Brian)

Don't think I have enough flies from the 7 participants that have already sent their flies to me to provide a fly to each participant if we add one more tyer. Will complicate things.

Hopefully we can do another salmon/steelhead fly swap in Feb/March time frame maybe spey flies and you can participate. God knows I need improvements on those.

Best

Hal

pmflyfisher
01-14-2003, 07:20 PM
Gardener (Charles),

Confirming receipt of your flies today. Very nice the Munro Killer pattern. I have heard of that atlantic salmon pattern. They look just like the pictures I have seen, good job.

There are a lot of flies with black hair wings in this swap, I hope this was not the black hair wing swap, since mine are not entirely black. As one famous steelhead fly fisherman "Any color is good, as long as its black".

Fred, this looks like your no name pattern, seriously. Similar color scheme.

Well its down to Ashley, Nbrandon, and myself. Ashleys won't be here at least for a few days from the UK. Nbrandon is still working on his last few, I will be done by the weekend.

Looks like we will be well ahead of the 1/31 due date.

Thanks every one.

Hal

PM Out

pmflyfisher
01-17-2003, 08:50 PM
I'm done with mine. :D

Now need to determine what pike/musky flys to tie for a friend who has requested some. This fellow is a heck of a musky fisherman has a cabin in Wisconsin on a zipper lip river filled with musky that he say I could catch a musky on a fly.

Sounds very interesting, I know the area but have not fished this river.

What I like about tying pike and musky flies, they are BIG.

PM Out

Smolt
01-18-2003, 09:58 AM
Hal,

Very large-headed, long-tailed (I use long synthetic hair as per a video I have on flyfishing for pike) Dahlberg Divers. I tied these for an acquaintance of mine fishing pike in Canada. They were very effective.

If you would like to view the video, let me know and I will send it to you.

CK

pmflyfisher
01-18-2003, 10:27 AM
Charles,

Thanks, maybe I am checking the web which has a lot of patterns. This is neat I will not need my reading glasses to tie this big patterns, must be nice to be a salt water fisherman with all of those huge patterns compared to what us trout and salmon guys have to deal with.

He gave me a bunch of big hooks to tie them on. Think I will have to stop at the fly shop this week for some big white, red, black hackles for these.

Wish I knew about this pike fly tying order last week before the fly show would have picked up some cheap hackles there.

Don't want to waste my good trout and salmon hackles on these.

Have some magnum bunny strips and synthetic hairs that will work good for these.

PM Out

Smolt
01-18-2003, 10:52 AM
The tried and true Lefty's Deceiver and the Half & Half (a combination Deceiver and Clouser, similar to and sometimes called the "Banana fly") are saltwater patterns that imitate large bait fish. Between the two, I would recommend the Deceiver. The Half & Half provides a broader profile, something that may not be as important in freshwater as it is when fishing the salt. They are pretty easy to tie. They both require long bucktail as well as long hackle feathers. I have some that I use for stripers that are about 8" long. If you want really long flies, you have to use synthetics or Yak hair (Yak hair is too expensive IMHO for pike flies. Muskies, on the other hand, might be worth the exoense.)

Willie Gunn
01-18-2003, 01:33 PM
[ If you want really long flies, you have to use synthetics or Yak hair (Yak hair is too expensive IMHO for pike flies. Muskies, on the other hand, might be worth the exoense.) [/B][/QUOTE]

In Scotland the builders use Yak hair for traditional pointing and plastering (I believe) so you can pick it up in great ammonts from builders (free) Good price.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
01-18-2003, 03:43 PM
I don't have Yak hair but have lots of synthetic hair to use plus flashabou, krystal flash,super hair, marabous, etc..Think I will try a prototype tonight. Lefty Deceiver, blonds, and some bunny strip leech types should work. These hook sizes are 6/0 to 8/0s BIG that he gave me.

FYI, The Siberian Husky breeders were here today to micro chip the pups and to obtain the payment for the second pup. They were at a dog show here in Chicago and brought 3 adults siberians that they showed.

Wow you should see the coats and tails on a full grown siberian's winter coat ! Really beautiful and thick hair. They are going to make some fine flys in a couple of years. Plus the siberians change colors as they shed each year. So it looks like I have a continually changing supply of siberian hair for the next decade.

Those forumn members who remain nice to me may benefit with siberian reds hair in the future for tying.

:D

Pm Out

Smolt
01-18-2003, 03:52 PM
On Dahlberg divers, instead of using hackle behind the head, I use a synthetic called "Big Fly Hair". It comes on cards, is crinbkly at one end and tapers out straight at the other. I just tie a good-sized clump of this onto the hook as the tail and then tie on the head. The hair doesn't absorb water and is not very wind resistant, but makes a very long fly that is pretty easy to cast. I think I tied these on 4/0 hooks. It is a pattern shown on the pike tape I mentioned earlier.

CK

flytyer
01-18-2003, 09:23 PM
Hal,

I caught many pike in the 25 to 30lb range when I lived west of the continental divide in Montana (there is some incredible pike fishing in some of the irrigation dams and the lower Flathead River). They beat a fly up pretty badly so you need to tie flies that take a lot of abuse. The most effective flies I used were either sort of an all black woolly bugger tied on #3/0 3X long Sealy streamer hooks (unfortunately, they are no longer available, but a long shank salt water hook should work as well).

I tied the fly with 6 black saddle hackles as a very long tail that were tied in pusher style - convex sides together, 3 hackles to a side. Next a black rug yarn (my favorite) or black large chenile body; a black saddle hackle was palmered over the body; ribbing was silver wire wrapped over the palmered black large saddle hackle. At the head, there was a large black neck hackle (one from the very end of a neck). The fly had some large lead wire (a small lead barbell would work just as well and be easier to tie the fly with as well) tied over the front 1/4 of the fly to give it a jigging action.

I also tied the same style fly but used a strip of black bunny for the tail. This style is fast and easy to tie, can be tied in virtually any color you wish, and either the bunny strip or the hackle tail version hold up to the abuse of pike teeth. I found the all black to be the most consistent color, but red and white, yellow and red, all yellow, and chartreuse worked, just not as well as the all black.

I remember very well the look on some of the spin and gear fishermen's faces when I showed up and started to fling feathers at these large pike. Many opf them even felt obligated to come over and tell me that you can't catch pike on flies or if you do hook one, it will break the rod. After I would hook one the 15 pound or larger pike and landed it, most of the spin and gear guys would come over and offer to help land the fish. I used an 8 weight rod with a 9 weight floating shooting head to be able to cast the beast of a fly 70+ feet and a 9 to 10 foot leader tapered to 12 pound test with a 40 lb mono shock tippet because I hated casting wire leaders, they messed with the flies action.

pmflyfisher
01-21-2003, 12:04 PM
Fly tyer

Thanks I did not start the pike flys last weekend. Had to do a big report for senior management.:(

Will get back to them this weekend and try your pattern and some others I was referred to. i don't think Pike are too picky based on my experience. Red and white has always seemed to be a color they like. Daredevils.

REMINDER:

Fly due date is 10 days away. missing ASHLEY and NBRANDON if I get them buy this weekend will get them out to all of you.

If not it may not be until the weekend of Feb1st.

Want to get these flies out my house before the new siberian pups find them, as they are now into really exploring new areas since they are getting comfortable after 4 weeks with us. They pulled a coffee cake off the table yesterday and had a feast. :D

Hard to punish them they are so cute.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-21-2003, 02:26 PM
"Gardener (Charles),

Confirming receipt of your flies today. Very nice the Munro Killer pattern. I have heard of that atlantic salmon pattern. They look just like the pictures I have seen, good job.

There are a lot of flies with black hair wings in this swap, I hope this was not the black hair wing swap, since mine are not entirely black. As one famous steelhead fly fisherman "Any color is good, as long as its black".

Fred, this looks like your no name pattern, seriously. Similar color scheme. "


the top of my head. But maybe (Strub, et. al excepted) there's very little "new," just variations on a theme.
Frede

ashley
01-21-2003, 05:09 PM
Hal,
Mine were mailed yesterday,gave em staight to the postie.Should have by the weekendish.

pmflyfisher
01-21-2003, 05:17 PM
Ashley, thanks will look for them.

Some participants have not sent their pattern name , tying instructions, and history if appropriate or other trivia about the pattern they tied.

Mr. Evans, Steelheader 69, are in that category. Please send soon.

PM Out

Gardener
01-22-2003, 06:52 AM
Fred, I don't want to spoil the surprise for you by giving away too much, but my fly is not quite a 'true' Munro Killer. There are additions and subtractions from the original dressing, and the tying method is not traditional. But it may have a name of its own somewhere, although the fly that you will receive came out of my head rather than a book. I have described it as a Munro Variant, but I could as easily have called it a Stack-Winged-Willie-Gunn variant, if that wasn't such a mouthful! So now you can probably guess roughly what it looks like!

You're quite right about 'variations on a theme'. There are certain colours and combinations that are proven to work, and black/yellow/orange/gold is one of the best on this side of the Atlantic. These colours recur in many patterns, in different proportions and materials, and forming different parts of the fly, but I'm not convinced that a salmon really can tell the difference between, for example, a Willie Gunn and a Black Shrimp (one of my absolute favourite patterns). There have been some radical and novel fly designs, but I fear that most of us are simply reinventing the wheel in our efforts to find that 'miracle fly'. Doesn't make it any less fun, though!

pmflyfisher
01-25-2003, 11:40 AM
Received just now, very nice ties.

For every ones information this may have to be called the black and orange atlantic salmon and steelhead fly swap.Lots of black and orange colorations must be the majority of the various patterns.

Will do a statistical summary when I get them all out for the mailing.

Ashleys are in the mail somewheres from Wales not here yet. Must be going through our fine Homeland Security control system now.

Will start preparing them for mailing this week.

PM Out

pmflyfisher
01-27-2003, 08:25 PM
Ashley's flies were received today.

Very nice single hook Willie Gunns. To think a year ago I thought Willie Gunn was the name of a fly fishing forumn member until Malcolm clarified it when some one else asked him what it was. Must have been Fred.

No flies are outstanding.

Will get them out to you ASAP.

Fred Evans and Steelheader 69 pattern names and tying instructions/materials are outstanding. I guess I will just have to make something up. :devil:

PM Out

pmflyfisher
01-29-2003, 12:03 PM
Fred Evans and Steelheader 69 I cannot find your fly recipes or history in the fly packages or this thread.

Did you send it to me in an email ? Please resend.

BTW, I printed this thread out at work yesterday on my work laser printer its 54 pages of paper so far !!


PM Out

fredaevans
01-29-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
Fred Evans and Steelheader 69 I cannot find your fly recipes or history in the fly packages or this thread.

Did you send it to me in an email ? Please resend.

BTW, I printed this thread out at work yesterday on my work laser printer its 54 pages of paper so far !!


PM Out

I've got to 'plead insanity' on this one; was tieing for three different 'exchanges' at the same time and forgot which one I sent for the 'hair wing' exchange.

Shoot me a general description of the fly in an e mail.
fae

And I believe! the number of sheets given the number of posts/reviews .... and we still don't have the flys.
:devil:

Willie Gunn
01-29-2003, 01:32 PM
Fred,
Quote-and we still don't have the flys. unquote

Do not be so harsh the closing day is not till Friday.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
01-29-2003, 01:50 PM
Thats right Jan 31st was the date for flies to arrive at the Fly Swap Meister (PMOLD) not the date by which they were to be mailed to the fly swap participants.

No written agreement on this part of the deal was offered by me. Other than I said this week, I will do it as ASAP. What does that mean to a reasonable and prudent man ?

Thats what the judge would render his decision upon in a U.S. court of law.

What is reasonable in the circumstances given that no oral or written meeting of the minds has occurred on the final delivery of the flys to the fly swap participants ?

I have at least 2-4 weeks to deliver based on my knowledge of this law area.

Plus performance by all tyers has not been completed yet I do not have the fly pattern instructions for yours or Steelheader 69's flies.

BTW, your pattern is the orange and black with the krystal flash on the waddington shanks (large and small). I know its tough to get old, short term memory is the first to go.

I await final performance on these items.

In the meantime I will be preparing the flies for sending hopefully by Saturday.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-29-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Willie Gunn
Fred,
Quote-and we still don't have the flys. unquote

Do not be so harsh the closing day is not till Friday.

Malcolm

But our winter steelhead season is just kicking into high gear and I want my new toys!:D All kidding aside, two or three of the patterns I've gotten in earlier 'swaps,' or folks (yourself being an excellent example) have have sent me, have turned out to be my 'go to' patterns. I may be '60,' but Joan says I've got the patience of a teenager.

Russ Osenbach, up in Mt. Vernon, Washington just sent me a packet of flys he uses for their Fall Coho run. Man they are BEAUTIFUL! The run is history now, but these will be lying in wait come next fall; bring on 'them fishies!'

Pant, Pant!:hehe:

pmflyfisher
01-29-2003, 01:56 PM
Fred,

Just throw on the Carpet Bagger and Otis Bug or your other secret nymphs you have not told us about yet, and you are good to go on The Rogue.

PM Out

Willie Gunn
01-29-2003, 02:20 PM
Fred & PM
After a long winter the Spey reopens on Feb 11th, so as long as the flies are here by Feb10th I will be quite happy. certainly more contented than I am now.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
01-29-2003, 02:38 PM
Malcolm,

I will make sure yours are there for opening day on the Spey for sure.

PM Out

flytyer
01-29-2003, 07:03 PM
Fred,

Glad you like to coho flies. You might be finding a small care package in the next week with some winter flies since you have fish down there and we remain virtually fishless up here.

Pmflyfisher,

Spoken like a true attorney. However, we cannot hold you entirely responsible since two folks have not provided the recipe and history on their flies. Perhaps we should have them found guilty and sentence them to providing the flymeister with another 1/2 dozen flies each.

fredaevans
01-29-2003, 10:12 PM
God knows, most of them whould know what to do with it. Ugly part is Hal may be the exception to the rule.:eyecrazy:

Now go back and remove your last post ... or at least the 'penalty' part.:devil:

Not good the 'North-Northwesterners' are taking it in the shorts again this year. All indications are the winter run on the Rogue will be 'banana's' again this winter season. All runs this year have been at, or just short of, high record levels. I will think of you while I'm on the river .... Not!

Ya Baby!!
:smokin:

Should add; Jim Jones (JD Jones on the Board) looks like he's giving up on So. Cal. and moving north. Suspect stongly that it isn't just because se. is far better here in So. Oregon. :hehe: Which it is.
Snigger, snigger

Hal, just noticed this thread has "5 stars." How did you get it up to that level? 'Score it' each time you posted?:devil:

flytyer
01-30-2003, 12:10 AM
Fred,

We North-Northwesterners may have to take a road trip down to the Rogue to get our fish fix. Hopefully the wild spring fish will show up.

Regarding attorneys, ah shucks, deys' a jest tryin' ta git by! Besides, if we didn't have attorneys who would become Representatives and Senators.

pmflyfisher
01-30-2003, 08:22 AM
You can only vote once on each thread, I have tried to vote multiple times but it does not work.:D

BTW, wheres your fly pattern information ?:confused:

PM Out

removed_by_request
01-30-2003, 09:53 AM
At the very most you have generated 11 pages on a simple fly swap.

pmflyfisher
01-30-2003, 12:09 PM
Wait till I get the pictures, pattern descriptions, and Fly Swap Meister's post implementation report added. This thread is going to break records for sure ! :D

PM Out

fredaevans
01-30-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
You can only vote once on each thread, I have tried to vote multiple times but it does not work.:D

BTW, wheres your fly pattern information ?:confused:

PM Out

Was tieing flys for three different exchanges at one time and I've gone 'flat brained' on what I sent to you. :( A "occupational hazard" if you don't 'procrastinate' in getting the goodies out in the mail.:smokin:

pmflyfisher
01-30-2003, 02:50 PM
I will send you a picture via email, I don't have time to deal with trying to reduce it to post on this board right now. Be looking for it.

PM Out

fredaevans
01-30-2003, 02:54 PM
done up on Waddington Shanks.
fae

pmflyfisher
01-30-2003, 03:38 PM
YEP , Bingo you got it.

PM Out

pmflyfisher
01-30-2003, 07:56 PM
Here is a quick picture of the flies, will get a better one when I have more time.

The flies starting from the top and going down in each column are as follows:

Column 1 - left side

Tyer
Fred Evans - Rogue Unnamed
Pmflyfisher - Steelhead Rat
NBrandon - Thunder & Lightning
Gardener - Munro's Killer
Ashley - Willie Gunn

Column 2 - right side

Tyer
Steelheader69 - Unnamed
Willie Gunn - Garry Dog Variation
Smolt - Green Widow
WRKE - Terry's Terror (Russian Salmon fly)
Flytyer - Mcneese's Pale Peril

Looking very very good !!!

PM Out

removed_by_request
01-30-2003, 09:18 PM
nice ties guys, very nice.:D

fredaevans
01-30-2003, 09:22 PM
Small thing: don't forget the bit of hook tubing with the Waddington shanks.
:D

Looking at the flys .... this is well worth the wait; flys there I've only read about. Can assure one and all they well get a Rogue Work Out!:smokin:

pmflyfisher
01-31-2003, 08:45 AM
I inventoried all flies last night and am preparing them for mailing.

The following flys I have no tying instructions for:

Fred Evans - Rogue Unnamed
Steelheader 69 - Unnamed
Nbrandon - Thunder & Lightning

I will mail them with out the instructions but follow with them by posting on the board or probably a direct email to every one. PM me your email address when you have a chance. I have some of them but not all.

I have decided to send the three United Kingdom participants flys out first in the mail which WILL OCCUR on Saturday morning. These are Ashley, Gardener, and Willie Gunn. Need to make sure they arrive by the time of their early salmon season opener of Feb 10th especially Willie Gunns, I can only imagine the comments I will receive if they do not arrive by then.

You know how sensitive I am about those comments.:D

The US participants will go out early next week so all should arrive to you no later than Thursday or Friday of next week.

Thats it for now.

PM Out

nbrandon
01-31-2003, 11:54 AM
I'm gonna try to remember what i did... here goes

Thunder & Lightning

Materials:
Hook: size 4 salmon/steelhead
Tag: Oval silver tinsel and yellow silk floss
Tail: Tip of orange chinese rooster hackle
Butt: Peacock herl
Body: Black floss
Rib: Oval gold tinsel
Hackle: Orange chinese rooster hackle at second rib
Throat: Blue guinea
Wing: Moose body hair

Tying Instructions:
1. Lay down a layer of thread all the way back to directly above the barb of the hook.
2. Tie in the silver tinsel, make 2 turns around the hook moving forward, and tie it off.
3. Tie in the yellow silk directly after tinsel. Begin wrapping up the hook and stop directly over the point of the hook. Tie it off and trim.
4. Snip off a little of the rooster hackle tip, and tie it in directly over the point of the hook. Put the rest of the hackle away for later. The tail should stop just short of being directly over the bend in the hook. You can put golden pheasent crest in too if you want to be fancy.
5. Tie in a peacock herl, and a strip of gold tinsel at the same time. The peacock should be dangling off the back of the hook, and the tinsel should be draped over the hook towards the eye. Make a few wraps of peacock herl, until you're happy and then tie it off and trim.
6. Pull the gold tinsel out of the way and then start making nice wraps towards the center of the hook.
7. Tie in the hackle that you clipped the tip off for use in the tail. You're going to want it to fall about where you think the second wrap of gold tinsel will be. A wrap or two back from the middle is usally right on.
8. Continue wrapping the black thread forward until you get close to the head. Leave more room for the head than you would with featherwing.
9. Wrap the gold tinsel forward, careful to pick out any orange hackle fibers that might get caught. Tie it off and trim when you meet up with your bobbin.
10. Fold the orange hackle back and start palmering around the hook, more or less following your tinsel. When you get close to the head, I like to add a few extra turns for more body. Force the fibers to lay back and not get caught under each other. Tie off and trim.
11. Hold the blue guinea feather at the tip and stroke downwards to seperate the fibers. Lay it on the hook, tie it in and trim the tip. Make a few wraps directly in front of the orange hackle, pulling each wrap back so it doesn't get funky (technical term). After you're satisfied, tie it off and trim.
12. Lay down a few turns of thread between the hackle and the eye, covering up any hackle butts or other sins.
13. Grab a chunk of moose hair, cut it out, stack it, and then pick out the just fibers. [Note: Some of these flies were tied between sessions of tying elk hair caddis, so if some look like Don King, I appologize] The tip of the moose should align with the tip of the tail. Tie it in, trim it away from the eye, build a nice head on the fly.
14. Whip finish, & coat w/ cement if you want.

Neil

pmflyfisher
01-31-2003, 01:29 PM
Neil,

Thanks very nice tie BTW !!

PM Out

nbrandon
01-31-2003, 01:55 PM
No problem. What do you think about making this a yearly event? I'll volunteer to host next years.

Neil

pmflyfisher
01-31-2003, 02:32 PM
Neil,

Thats fine but I am thinking of doing a steelhead and salmon nymph swap now that this one is over.

Perhaps you would like to be the Fly Swap Meister for that one one ?

Let me know

PM Out

pmflyfisher
02-01-2003, 11:49 AM
England and Scotland fly tyers were sent their flies this morning as planned. Ashley, Gardener (Charles). and Willie Gunn (Malcolm).

Was in the post office line when I heard on the radio about the Columbia going down. Very sad. Will remember where I was again like the Challenger accident in 1986, had just arrived at Toronto International airport on a business trip.

Reentry to the atmosphere at those high speeds have many risks.

My prayers to their families and condolences.

Will begin preparing the US tyers for mailing now.

PM Out

fredaevans
02-01-2003, 12:31 PM
takes a lot of guts to climb into one of those things. You start by sitting on top of a million gallons of highly volatile fuel and it goes on from there. The take off is just one huge 'controlled' explosion, and it goes on from there. Coming home your generating hull temps that would weld steel and you're 'protected' by little hunks of tile.

Purchased very few movies in my day, but the Tom Hanks film on Apollo 13 still has me sitting on the edge of my chair.
fae

pmflyfisher
02-01-2003, 01:14 PM
Fred,

As I just told Malcolm in a PM just now, seeing the original space capsules the astronauts used to reenter the atmosphere in the 60s and 70s was amazing the Air and Space Museum in DC was very eye opening.

Having worked on USAF planes during the late 60s some of the capsules had the same flight instrumentation I worked on. The shield separating them from the heat on reentry did not look too good to me. They were truly brave men the first astronauts.

PM Out

removed_by_request
02-01-2003, 06:13 PM
Great Hanks movie. Those guys did it by the seat of their pants.

Another chap comes to mind who never got into space, Steve Yeager. He is one brave soul.

All of America's prayers go out to the dead and their families. God bless them all.

pmflyfisher
02-03-2003, 10:09 PM
All remaining fly swap flys are ready to go, will mail tomorrow or Wednesday I promise.

I am missing the fly pattern instructions from Gardener's - Munro Killer and Steelheader69 - Noname fly (Have not seen Jerry on here lately hope he is OK will try sending him a PM and email)

Any way I have compiled all of the fly tyer pattern instructions into a word document which I will send to you and then eventually add to this thread with fly pictures.

Send me your email address via a Private Message and I will send the document to every one by Friday so you can tie if you like. I have Freds, Smolts, Steelheader69s, and Ashleys email addresses so you do not have to send it to me.

Hope to have every ones flies to them by Friday.

Busy week at work, finalizing this swap, and starting on some other fly swap flys I am behind on.

I work best under time constraints and pressure, sort of like a steelhead fly fishing trip. :chuckle:

Thanks again some great looking flies here.

PM Out

Gardener
02-04-2003, 05:15 AM
Hal, I though I'd sent the recipe to you in a PM - I've just sent it again, so let me know if it doesn't show up.

pmflyfisher
02-04-2003, 08:47 AM
Gardener,

Your right I found it in my PM folder.

All other flys were sent this morning from Chicago to the non UK tyers. As I promised previously, expect them by Thursday or Friday in your mail.

I will email to every one all of the pattern instructions and history this week in one email. They will be in a rich text format document all of you should be able to read. Plus i can place the text in the actual email.

BTW, I returned each of the nice little fly boxes some of you sent me with the swap flies in them. I did not think you were donating them to PM's fly tackle. :chuckle: Besides some of them were to pricey for me, I like the 99 cent hobby shop plastic boxes. I don't have any expensive Wheately boxes either. I guess I am just an old style simple economical fly fisherman ? :cool:

I am missing only Steelheader69s information, Jerry where are you ?

Thanks !

PM Out


P.S. Note this thread is now above 2,000 views and we are not done yet. :chuckle:

Willie Gunn
02-05-2003, 01:47 PM
Hal,
That was quick. My little box of flies arrived this morning, they are superb. I will give them all a swim on Tuesday,opening day on the Spey.
Presentation was surperb is must of taken you hours to put all the little messages on each fly.

Thank you all, and especially the flymeister.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
02-05-2003, 03:22 PM
Malcolm

Glad you received them. I did that for Ashleys, Gardeners, and yours the UK swap participants. For the americans I did not. I was under time constraints and figured they would be able to determine whose fly was each from the picture I posted.

My apologies to the american participants.

Let us know of any good results with the flys.

PM Out

pmflyfisher
02-05-2003, 10:30 PM
I sent the fly pattern instructions via email to everyone tonight but received an email address error on Neil Brandons email address and was missing Gardener's.

Please send your addresses to me.

The full text is cut and pasted below for everyone on the forumn to see the fly patterns and the history submitted for the flies.

Every one advise if you have received the email, you may have received it twice from me.

Thanks

Hal

PM Out



Fly Swap Participants:
Pmflyfisher – Hal
Willie Gunn - Malcolm
Fred A Evans – Fred
Smolt – Charles
Wrke – Bill
Gardener – Charles
Steelheader69 – Jerry
Nbrandon – Neil
Flytyer – Russ
Ashley – Ashley


Fly Tyer: Smolt (Charles)

Name: The Green Widow

I do not know the history of the Green Widow, but I do have a story as to how I became familiar with the pattern.
During the last week in July of 1988, I was one of a group of eight fishermen from various parts of Maine who met to fish the Main SW Miramichi River in New Brunswick. We were fortunate enough to be fishing the “Big Hole Pool” for three days. If not the best, Big Hole is one of the two best pools on that entire river system, so we were expecting good things.

When we woke up to fish on the first morning, the sky was crystal clear, the weather was pleasantly cool, and the water was at a perfect level and temperature. Unfortunately, the fishing was slow. Two and one-half hours passed and none of us had a hook-up.

One of the fellows in the group and the most experienced Atlantic Salmon fisherman among us – Fred Evans should like this – was a banker named “Fred” from Millinocket. Looking for some way to break the drought, he dug around in a fly box he seldom carried with him and took out a really old fly, the name of which he could not remember, tied it on, and proceeded to catch three salmon before lunch, i.e., in the next hour and a half.
He was the only person who caught fish that morning. Big Hole is such a large pool all eight of us could fish at one time without any trouble. Consequently, we all knew how everyone else was doing, especially Fred.

It is not an overstatement to say that when we got back to camp to have lunch and a rest before the evening fishing, everyone wanted to know what fly Fred had used to catch his fish. He showed us and was quick to point out that he had only one, the one HE was using.

After inspecting the fly, and notwithstanding the fact that we didn’t even know the name of the fly, two members of the group jumped into a car and, not even waiting until after lunch, drove to the W.W. Doak fly shop in Doaktown to buy some. No luck. The people at Doak’s didn’t have and had never heard of any flies that met the mystery fly’s description – flat silver tinsel body with an oval silver tinsel rib, black hair wing, a green hackle collar, and a black head.

Now, whenever I go salmon fishing I try to drive so that I can bring with me a supply of fly pattern books and as much fly tying material and equipment as I feel will not be too embarrassing. I had driven on that trip and had a full supply of books and material with me. After a review of the patterns in Hair-Wing Atlantic Salmon Flies by Fulsher & Krom, I was able to identify the fly as the “Green Widow”.

After lunch I tied as many as I could and divided them up among the group. That evening, the Green Widow accounted for five out of the eight fish caught. In the three days we fished, the Green Widow accounted for nineteen of the thirty-nine fish brought to net by the group. It was a very, very good three days.
The punch line to all of this is that, when I returned to fish the Miramichi the next summer, I went into Doak’s to nose around. You guessed it. The fly case was full of Green Widows tied in various sizes on both double and single hooks with a sign up touting it as the newest and hottest fly on the river.

I have never repeated the success we had with the Green Widow in 1988, but the fly is one I always take with me whenever I fish any salmon river. You never know when it will work its magic again.

Instructions:

HOOK: Any single of double UE or DE salmon fly hook ( I have used Partridge M size 4 singles or Partridge P size 4 doubles)

Thread: Black 6/0 or 8/0
BODY: Flat silver tinsel with an oval silver tinsel rib
WING: Black hair (bear, squirrel, fox, etc.)
THROAT: Green hackle tied as collar
HEAD: Black

Fly Tyer: Wrke (Bill)

Pattern: Terrys Terror

You might be disappointed at first glance but read ahead. We named the fly after the Irish angler who introduced it to us in Russia last August. In this size, it was responsible for taking a number of salmon including the largest --- 44lbs. A seemingly simple tube fly (doesn’t even use “junction tubing) that on close inspection reveals two small holes in the sides of the tube. Its a “waking” tube fly, used on the surface. For waking, the leader is inserted into a hole in the side of the fly, instead of the front, depending on the side of the river you are fishing. The fly is normally fished with a size 10 double, but as every one has requested a single hook, I’ve used a size 8 single, Used with several colors of bucktail, but red or orange with black probably took most fish. Use a heated needle to make the holes tying.

The pattern is very simple:

Thread: red
Tube
Under wing: Orange dyed squirrel
Over wing: Black squirrel

Pmflyfisher (Hal)

Steelhead Rat

This is another variation of the famous atlantic salmon fly the Rusty Rat which has many variations. The Rusty Rat is one of a series of tried and true patterns and is the most popular of the bunch.

The Rats were originated in 1911 by Roy Angus Thompson and, his initials R. A. T. are the inspiration for the name of the patterns. In the book, Flies for Atlantic Salmon by Stewart & Allen, they give some of the history of these handsome flies and show several of the other variations of the series. Not all of the RAT’s were of Mr. Thompson’s origin but, his patterns inspired the others so, the RAT initials have followed the various patterns.
There are many types of rat patterns: rusty, silver, blue, red, black, yellow, purple orange etc.

The standard parts of the pattern are the peacock sword tail, silk floss body of various colors, squirrel hair wing (various colors) hackle of grizzly. Front half of body is always peacock herl.
I tied this one to incorporate the key colors of incorporated in many steelhead flys: chartreuse, orange, and black

Instructions and materials:

Hook: Any up eye atlantic salmon hook
Size: 2 down to size 8
Thread: Red
Tag: Gold french fine tinsel
Tail: 2-3 peacock swords
Rib: Gold french tinsel
Underbody: tinsel or dental floss
Body: Rear - half orange floss, Front - half peacock herl:
Veil: One strand of bright orange floss and one chartreuse floss strand extending back over hook
Under Wing: Chartruese dyed squirrel tail
Over Wing: Black squirrel tail
Hackle: Grizzly collared





Fly Tyer - Fred Evans (Fred)
Pattern: Rogue River Unnamed

Hook: Tube fly single, double, or treble as you like
Waddington Shank
Weighted with .015 wire
Body - dubbed black seal or chenille
Rib - Silver french embossed tinsel
Under wing: holographic tinsel
Overwing: arctic fox hair with an overlay of red arctic fox hair
Note: On longer Waddington shanks double up on the head materials to add bulk to the body.


Fly Tyer - Nbrandon (Neil)

Pattern - Thunder & Lightning

Materials:
Hook: size 4 salmon/steelhead
Tag: Oval silver tinsel and yellow silk floss
Tail: Tip of orange chinese rooster hackle
Butt: Peacock herl
Body: Black floss
Rib: Oval gold tinsel
Hackle: Orange chinese rooster hackle at second rib
Throat: Blue guinea
Wing: Moose body hair

Tying Instructions:

1. Lay down a layer of thread all the way back to directly above the barb of the hook. Tie in the silver tinsel, make 2 turns around the hook moving forward, and tie it off.

2. Tie in the yellow silk directly after tinsel. Begin wrapping up the hook and stop directly over the point of the hook. Tie it off and trim.

3. Snip off a little of the rooster hackle tip, and tie it in directly over the point of the hook. Put the rest of the hackle away for later.

4. The tail should stop just short of being directly over the bend in the hook. You can put golden pheasant crest in too if you want to be fancy.

5. Tie in a peacock herl, and a strip of gold tinsel at the same time. The peacock should be dangling off the back of the hook, and the tinsel should be draped over the hook towards the eye. Make a few wraps of peacock herl, until you're happy and then tie it off and trim.

6. Pull the gold tinsel out of the way and then start making nice wraps towards the center of the hook.

7. Tie in the hackle that you clipped the tip off for use in the tail. You're going to want it to fall about where you think the second wrap of gold tinsel will be. A wrap or two back from the middle is usually right on.

8. Continue wrapping the black thread forward until you get close to the head. Leave more room for the head than you would with featherwing.

9. Wrap the gold tinsel forward, careful to pick out any orange hackle fibers that might get caught. Tie it off and trim when you meet up with your bobbin.

10. Fold the orange hackle back and start palmering around the hook, more or less following your tinsel. When you get close to the head, I like to add a few extra turns for more body. Force the fibers to lay back and not get caught under each other. Tie off and trim.

11. Hold the blue guinea feather at the tip and stroke downwards to separate the fibers. Lay it on the hook, tie it in and trim the tip. Make a few wraps directly in front of the orange hackle, pulling each wrap back so it doesn't get funky (technical term). After you're satisfied, tie it off and trim.

12. Lay down a few turns of thread between the hackle and the eye, covering up any hackle butts or other sins.

13. Grab a chunk of moose hair, cut it out, stack it, and then pick out the just fibers. [Note: Some of these flies were tied between sessions of tying elk hair caddis, so if some look like Don King, I apologize] The tip of the moose should align with the tip of the tail. Tie it in, trim it away from the eye, build a nice head on the fly.

14. Whip finish, & coat w/ cement if you want.



Fly Tyer: Ashley

Pattern: Willie Gunn

History: Originally from Scotland unfortunately most of my books are still at my old house so I cannot check the full history. Ashley I helped you out on this in an Internet second so to say. Heroes some history on the Willie Gnu.

WILLIE GUNN, the angler, gave his name to one of the deadliest salmon flies that have ever been tied. The fly is an essential part of many a salmon fisherman's equipment and is especially productive in cold water conditions, at the beginning or end of the season. "To be Willie Gunnless on any Highland stream was to be improperly dressed," wrote Bruce Sandison in Trout & Salmon.

It was Rob Wilson who had a tackle shop in Brora, Sutherland who tied the original Willie Gunn fly. It was one of about 20 experimental patterns and Wilson asked Gunn to select one.
Gunn's experienced eye fell upon one which was intended to be a hair-wing variation of another noted salmon fly, the Thunder & Lightning. "By gum" said Gunn, "that one looks bonny. That's the fly I would use." Well," said Wilson, you must have it and we will name the fly the Willie Gunn." Gunn's instant judgment was rapidly vindicated. That very day he caught six fish with the black, orange and yellow fly, and four the day after. Word spread and everyone on the River Brora began to use the Willie Gunn. Now it is known throughout the salmon fishing world.

According to one story, the Queen Mother, a skilled and enthusiastic salmon fisher, knew the fly, though not the man himself. It is said that she turned to her ghillie on an unproductive day and asked why they had not tried the Willie Gunn. "Ma'am" he said "I am Willie Gunn." Lord Strathnaver, the son of the Countess of Sutherland, for whose family Gunn acted as chauffeur and ghillie, said of him: "Willie was an extremely amusing gentleman and of course, famous as both fisherman and ghillie.

"He loved to help people to catch their first salmon. He always knew where fish were likely to be caught whatever the river level, and he was an absolute master of short casting. He could not see the need for long casting, preferring to keep everything as simple as possible."
Instructions

Hook any salmon hook, waddington, UTC or flourescent red for high water version

Thread - black UTC or fluorescent red for high water version
Tag oval gold or fluorescent red glo brite silk
Rib - Oval gold
Body - Black silk for low water or gold braid for high water )no rib)
Wing - Low water yellow, orannge, and black bucktail in equal parts
High water same but less black
Head - black for low water and red for high water

Tying instructions for low water version:

1, Start thread near eye and wind down to bead, tie in tag
2. Wind tag and tie off )don’t cut
3. Wind thread down to near and tie in floss. Wind down to tag and back again, tie and cut off
4. Wind rib
5. Tie equal parts of yellow, orange, and black bucktail (artic fox could also be used)
6. Make a nice head and whip finish, varnish


Fly Tyer: Willie Gunn ( Malcolm)

Pattern: Garry Dog Modified

Pattern

Silk black
Body: Black floss
Rib: Gold wire
Hackle: Blue Arctic Fox (instead of dark guinea fowl)
Wing: Yellow buck tail over red bucktail

Technique: This fly fishes extremely well in falling light conditions as the bright blue is the last color fish see before the light disappears. Or so I was told.

History:

Invented by John Wright the son of the famous John Wright of Sprounston. This pattern is reputed to have been born in a tackle shop where a visiting minister or priest was asked for some hair from his accompanying Golden Retriever’s tail. This was used to form part of the wing of a fly being tied in the premises. Nowadays a substitute of yellow bucktail or similar hair is used for this part of the wing. The name of the dog was supposedly Garry hence the name Garry Dog. Others say it was the ministers name hence Garry’s Dog. One of Scotlands most popular flies, the Garry Dog is rated in all rivers but particularly those that carry a dark peat stain.

I hope the flies are OK, I tie to catch fish not fisherman so sometimes they are a little untidy.


Fly Tyer: Gardener (Charles)

Pattern: Munro Killer - Variant

The fly is not actually a true Munro Killer, but a variant of the original, which has a GP topping tail and a blue guinea-fowl front hackle, and omits the crystal hair. Additionally, I've tied these using arctic fox for wing and hackle, as per the article by Poul Jorgensen in the recent Fly Fishing and Fly Tying magazine - the original has a conventional squirrel tail wing. It's one of my favorite salmon patterns, particularly for the end of the season; I usually tie it on doubles or tubes (it looks good on the Loop ‘brass bottle’ tubes). This is the first time I’ve used a hair hackle on it, and I’m quite pleased with the result, though it remains to be seen whether the fish agree with me!

The tying is as follows:

Hook: Any style and size; the swap flies are tied on #4 Partridge 'Wilson' singles.
Tag and rib: Oval gold tinsel.
Body: Black floss.

The winging and hackling are where the fly diverges from the traditional tying method:
Underwing: A few strands of gold crystal hair under yellow arctic fox tail.
Hackle: Orange arctic fox spun into a dubbing loop and wound on over the underwing.
Overwing: Black arctic fox tail. This is first tied in pointing forwards over the eye of the hook with several turns of thread. The ends are trimmed and the wing is then pulled back and a few further turns taken over the base of the hair before forming the head.

This technique results in a wing that stands up more than usual, which should help maintain some volume in fast water and give it some extra 'kick'.


Fly Tyer: Flytyer (Russ)

Pattern: McNneese's Pale Peril

I fish this fly only in sizes # 5 and # 7, Aleck Jackson Spey Hook and only fish it during late summer/fall, mid august through mid November. It is a very good fly in the morning but it is not good for afternoon/evening fishing. Also it works very well on dark gray days that have a light rain falling all day long.

I have found the fly to work only in the softer water just above the tail out on into the tail out of a pool. At the head of the run, in the riffled water, it has not produced any fish for my friends or myself.

I fish it exclusively on a floating line with a leader of 12 feet to 16 feet long and no weight added to leader or fly. It fishes in the top foot or less of the water column and I have found that to be ideal for it to induce strikes. Also, I purposely allow a bit of a downstream belly to form in the line in order to let the fly move a bit faster than the current in these slow, smooth water areas I find it productive.

To tie the fly, all one has to do is follow the tying sequence as laid out in the following pattern recipe:

Hook: Alec Jackson Spey #5 or #&, Partridge Bartleet in #4 to # 8 is OK
Thread: Purple started where just in front of where the hook return touches the shank
Tag: Flat silver tinsel
Tail: Red hackle fibers or red dyed Golden Pheasant Crest
Body: Purple braided mylar
Ribbing: Small oval silver
Wing: White arctic fox, polar bear, calf tail, or Yak, followed by UV pearl krystal flash (not more than 5 strands, 4 is best) on top of he white hair
Hackle: Purple, tied as collar, over the wing buts, long (oversized) about 6 or 7 turns, tie off on bottom of hook
Over wing: Purple bucktail, calf tail, arctic fox, polar bear, or Yak.
Head: purple

Following the tying sequence of the pattern recipe provides the tying directions. At the head of the fly, place a drop of fleximent, over the butts of the over wing, cover them with 6 or 7 wraps of thread and then whip finish over these wraps. This produces a nice small head that has a lot of strength.



Fly Tyer: Steelheader 69 (Jerry)

Pattern: Washington Steelhead – Black Bear Modified

Hook: Black salmon up eye size 2 and smaller

Tag: Dark green thread or floss

Body: Black crystal chenille

Wing: Black squirrel or bucktail

Hackle: Guinea dyed green

Gardener
02-06-2003, 04:00 AM
Mine were waiting for me yesterday evening when I got in. Thanks to all, especially Hal for meistering so efficiently. Some really interesting and good looking patterns there. The originals will be kept as 'standards' to copy, but I'll definitely have to go shopping for some new tying materials to replicate some of these flies.

PS Hal, your inbox is full. My email is charles_harman@onetel.net.uk

ashley
02-06-2003, 04:04 PM
Hal,mine were waiting for me when I got home,excellent thanks .Cannt wait for the salmon to start running so that I can try them out,I'll be keeping the originals and tying copies.Thanks for helping out with the history part,I knew it was something like that but needed to check my facts first.
Ashley

pmflyfisher
02-06-2003, 07:00 PM
Ashley,

No problem it took a few internet seconds thanks to my search engine, and then pick the hit that had the best Willie Gunn history.

Enjoy, and let us know of the good results.

PM Out

Smolt
02-07-2003, 11:30 AM
I received my flies this morning. Very impressive work by all. Many thanks to PM for a great job managing the swap.

CK

pmflyfisher
02-07-2003, 11:35 AM
Smolt ( Charles)

Thanks, BTW did you receive an email from me with the attached fly swap pattern tying instructions that are in the above thread ?

I had problems sending it due to email errors from Nbrandon's email address that appeared to reject the message from being sent. I tried three times and could not tell if it was just his address that would not send to or if any one of them went through.

I can resend this weekend if need be or you can just cut and paste that section from this thread into your PCs word processor and save the document for future reference.

PM Out

P.S. Do any of those fly shops on the North side of Chicago carry Sage spey rods ?

nbrandon
02-07-2003, 02:25 PM
try my work address, neilb@adci.com

Neil

pmflyfisher
02-07-2003, 02:35 PM
I will thanks

PM Out

wrke
02-08-2003, 11:08 AM
Received the flies. Some very nice & interesting flies. Many thanks to all, especially Hal.
Bill

pmflyfisher
02-11-2003, 09:38 AM
Every one should have received their flies by now let me know if you have not.

Cheers

PM Out

flytyer
02-12-2003, 12:13 AM
Hal,

I got the flies Friday.

Fred, that is some humongous fly, although I do like the colors. I never fish anything larger than a size 2/0 in winter and usually I fish a 1/0 to a 2.

Malcolm,

I like this fly of yours a lot!

To everyone who participated, a great big thanks. And Hal, this has been a very enjoyable thread due to your bringing in the history of hair wing salmon flies.

pmflyfisher
02-19-2003, 10:57 AM
fyi

I still have to post the pictures on this one.

PM Out

fredaevans
02-19-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by flytyer
Hal,

I got the flies Friday.

Fred, that is some humongous fly, although I do like the colors. I never fish anything larger than a size 2/0 in winter and usually I fish a 1/0 to a 2.

Malcolm,

I like this fly of yours a lot!

To everyone who participated, a great big thanks. And Hal, this has been a very enjoyable thread due to your bringing in the history of hair wing salmon flies.

Blue G. side 'wings' on the Loop double hook have each hooked fish. Kinda cool when an 'experimental pattern' actually works!
fae

pmflyfisher
02-24-2003, 11:25 AM
Not been on the board in 4 days due to hectic weekend, business, etc. must be a record for me. Looks like a lot of catching up to do.

Received an email from Steelheader 69 who has not been heard of for a month or so, got worried about him.

His hard disk fried a month a go and will be back with us soon. He got the hair wing fly swap flies.

Good to hear he is alright, thought some thing may had happened to him.

I am sure he will be back posting soon from his email to me.

PM Out

Steelheader69
03-05-2003, 02:57 PM
Yes, I finally got my Dad's computer going to email Hal (his runs REALLY S L O W ). LOL I just rebuilt mine (after awaiting diagnostics on my computer finding it was dead). So I'm back in full swing.

I thought I put instructions in with my flies, but must've forgot. I do apologize. To give you some insight, I had seen an atlantic salmon fly similar to this one. I liked the looks/color of it so I retrofited it for my late summer/early fall steelheading on a river I fish religiously. Has been an awesome producer in the gin clear/high vis conditions some of these rivers get. Hal I think was pretty right on, I do believe it was a black bear butt. Not sure. I never named it (I haven't named all my flies). But, I'll call mine the......

Oly Pen Black Bear Butt

Hook: Size 2 salmon/steelhead upturned eye hook
Tag: highlander green silk
body: peacock estez
throat: green dyed guinea hackle
wing: black bear fur (I used black bear, you can use ???)
thread: 6/0 black thread

Sorry it took so long, will be more prompt from now on :)

pmflyfisher
03-07-2003, 06:27 PM
Jerry,

Good to see you are back and my guess on the pattern was close.

Hal

PM Out

P.S. When is the spring steelhead swap ? :chuckle: :chuckle:

pmflyfisher
03-08-2003, 06:40 PM
I posted all each flys picture, tying instructions, and other information (history, how to fish, etc..) in the salmon and steelhead fly tying archive.

I think I am done.

There are a couple of the pictures I will try and make better.

Thanks again !

Good luck with the flies, let us know of any outstanding results.

Hal

PM Out

Willie Gunn
03-08-2003, 06:47 PM
Hal,
As a thank you I have aquired a few mouthwash samples to send to you, most have been produced on the banks of the Spey or the Deveron
.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
03-08-2003, 06:50 PM
Malcolm.

Mouthwash yes I always need some of that.

Lets discuss offline.

Hal

PM Out

P.S. How is the early salmon season this year ?

Willie Gunn
03-08-2003, 06:54 PM
Personally not good I have fished every week till this one No fish
This week they had five, such is life.


In a weeks time March 17 I have a full week on the Spey.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
03-17-2003, 07:49 PM
Willie Gunn ( Malcolm)

Confirmation that the scottish mouth wash has arrived. I will be diligent about the mouth washings on the river this year after each steelhead encounter (win or lose). :chuckle:

Many thanks

Best

Hal

PM Out