Now I Remember... [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Now I Remember...


NrthFrk16
10-09-2002, 12:15 AM
...why I dont trout fish. :rolleyes:

Two days spent walking the banks of a local river that I know has a decent population of resident wild rainbows that do push 18"...two days worth of fruitless casting except for the odd piddler that was not large enough to impale istelf on my october caddis imitation.

It seems that in my case...hours/fish is alot less when pursuing steelhead then trout. Go figure!! :confused:

Next week...it is time to stop playing around with them 'pre-migrants' and pursue real gamefish. :devil:

Scott K
10-09-2002, 02:52 AM
Considering Steelhead are a Trout, we really do spend more time trout fishing than we think.

John Desjardins
10-09-2002, 08:16 AM
Ryan. it sounds like you experienced why its called fishing rather than catching.

pmflyfisher
10-09-2002, 08:43 AM
Ryan,

I encountered the same thing this summer fly fishing for trout on several South Dakota spring creeks, lots of selective and educated bit trout their that would not touch my flies.

I guess I know consider steelhead an easier fly fishing target, and will continue to pursue them. I can usually get at least one - 2 touches each trip from those buggers unlike these educated stream trout.

I am now thinking that fly fishing for regular stream trout is more of an angler challenge than steelhead. If the steelhead are in the river section I am fishing I feel I can get them to take a fly, I cannot say that for educated stream trout though, even with my 43 years of trout fly fishing experience. This is of course compounded when you are on a new river and donot know the hatches or river as I was this summer in SD. "Such is the sum of the challenge" as R. H. Brown stated wonderfully in his writings on steelhead. Thats why we keep coming back for the challenge, if we caught something and mastered it each time, we would probably lose interest in fishing faster.

Thats why us old timers are still around for the challenge and solitude in the great outdoors, not the catching.

Hal

KerryS
10-09-2002, 12:48 PM
I wonder if stopping by the local fly shop, asking what the bug of the day is while dropping a few bucks on flies or other stuff would improve your odds at catching the local trout? Maybe even get a some tips on where to uuuuuuuuuuuuu I won't go there

pmflyfisher
10-09-2002, 04:17 PM
Beleive me there was maybe one fly shop in the Black Hills of South Dakota which was not in my area. I talked to some of the guys on the local fishing board who did give some tips. The local tackle guy in Custer did not have a clue about fly fishing. Wanted me to use berkely power bait, worms, etc...

Not many big hatches out there any way from what I could tell. Was there the last week in July, thought would be hopper time, had one slight touch on those. Water was a true small spring creek, nice little rivers have to get back there again, since they did appear to be under fished, and the scenery is delightful.

fishboyicu812
10-09-2002, 04:49 PM
Isn't that part of the fun? You go out one day and nail 'em and the next you are lucky if you get a chub. I am used to fishing South Central Pennsylvania spring creeks and you can be rest assured that frustration is simply a part of the game. It makes those fish that are caught that much better. Besides who wants to catch a bunch of big trout on a #12 dry fly? ;)

pmflyfisher
10-09-2002, 07:15 PM
Oh, yes your right. I remember one memorable day on the Big Beaverkill when I did every thing right. Picked off one riser after another below Horsebrook Run. All were 10 to 15 inches as I remember. A great day it was plus there was not another soul around. Thats my definition of a very good fly fishing day!! Had many others for trout, salmon, and steelhead over the years. Thats what keeps you coming back I think. For me now it is just to have a peaceful day alone or with a friend on a river or lake casting the fly rod in solitude. If I catch a fish thats great if not it is another lesson learned to me.

NrthFrk16
10-09-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Scott K
Considering Steelhead are a Trout, we really do spend more time trout fishing than we think.

Actually Scott, steelhead are a salmon, much more closely related to the Pacific Salmon, genus Onchrynchus then trout such as the brown trout and Atlantic salmon, genus Salmo.

So I guess we all really fish for salmon and rarely fish for trout as I dont know abuot you but its been a while since I have pursued brown trout.

watersprite
10-09-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by NrthFrk16


Actually Scott, steelhead are a salmon

Say what????

ws

NrthFrk16
10-09-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by KerryS
I wonder if stopping by the local fly shop, asking what the bug of the day is while dropping a few bucks on flies or other stuff would improve your odds at catching the local trout? Maybe even get a some tips on where to uuuuuuuuuuuuu I won't go there

Kerry, you catch the trout (since you are so good at it) and I'll catch the steelhead (since you can not) and we will make the perfect team!! ;)

Steelheader69
10-09-2002, 10:25 PM
Is that rainbows/steelhead aren't trout per-se, they are actually a salmonoid. The brown's are one of the only real "trouts" out there if memory serves me. I was schooled on this when I was an exchange student in Germany. They didn't appreciate the "German Browns" being associated with our pacific salmon. LOL. But rainbows/steelhead are part of the Salmonoid family.

Sparkey, I do believe when most were saying "trout" they refered to "bows" as we call them. Since Brown's aren't as prevelent here (though I have caught more then my share here). Most people here fish for "trout" as stated in the state regulations refering to steelhead and rainbows as "trout" along with a few other species.

NrthFrk16
10-09-2002, 10:56 PM
First of all...I am sure Smalma will find some errors with the following and I would be more then happy to ask for his corrections.

Up until the mid-80's, the Pacific Salmon were salmon (genus Onchrynchus ) and the rainbow and cutthroat trout and their many subspecies were classified as trout (genus Salmon ).

When classified as Salmo prior to the turn of the century, rainbow and cutthroat trout were believed to be more closely related to brown trout, Atlantic salmon (not really a salmon but a tout), sea trout and other European trouts then Pacific Salmon.

Back in the mid-80's, taxonomists decided that the rainbow and cutthroat trouts were more closely related (evolutionary) to the Pacific Salmon then the brown trout, Atlantic Salmon etc and changed their genus to Onchyrnchus.

Because the first biologist to classify the rainbow and cutthroat trout as a salmon occured back in the 19th century, that biologist's name was given to the species... mykiss. It is customary that the first person to reconize a species is given the naming rights.

So Salmo gairdneri became Onchrynchus mykiss and Salmo clarkii became Onchryhnchus clarkii.

The Golden Trout, Apache and Gila trout were also reclassified.

If one is looking for a much better description of the history of this ongoing debate, check out Steve Raymond's Steelhead Country and the chapter 'Whats in a Name.' Also The Year of the Trout and in particular the chapter "Family Tree" authored by Raymond, give some intresting insights.

On a side note...I was given one of those popular Trout, Salmon and Char of North America with all the trout that are now Onchrynchus listed as Salmo. This was many years ago and was given to me as a gift by my uncle, a respected fisheries biologist and was accompied by a long lecture about the whole change.

Being 11 y's.o, the vast majority of it was way over my head but I did learn enough that I go around and tell people (in a 'know-it-all' tone of voice) that Atlantic Salmon were really a trout and rainbow trout were really a salmon...obviouly, no one believed me.

SH69-
Brown trout, Atlantic salmon, etc. are just as much a salmonId as rainbow trout, salmon and the chars such as the bull trout and Dolly Varden. Salmonid more or less refers to a general body shape and basic physiological similarities.

Steelheader69
10-09-2002, 11:19 PM
They must have changed that recently then Sparkey (as in the last 20 years). My lecture was from one of the German biologists stocking the river I was lucky enough to gain access rights to from my Host parents best friend. Since I was an exchange student back in the 80's, I'm sure things have changed, just going off what I had learned way back then. Was under the explanation that they were another group. I could care less actually, I'm not fishing for a scientific name, I'm fishing for an ike, dog, king, silver, or cuttie. Could care less what scientific name they're given. :rolleyes:

NrthFrk16
10-09-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Steelheader69
I could care less actually, I'm not fishing for a scientific name, I'm fishing for an ike, dog, king, silver, or cuttie. Could care less what scientific name they're given. :rolleyes:

I totally understand what you are saying...I could really care less as yourself but it makes for very intresting discussion and a great educational process. Although there are some, that are tried and true believers that steelhead and rainbow trout should still be classified as trout. Salmo g., are you out there?? :hehe:

btw-
I dug up the true definiton of a salmonid...

"any of a family (Salmonidae) of elongate bony fishes (as a salmon or trout) that have the last three vertebrae upturned"

The family Salmonidae includes the genera (genuses) Salmo, Onchorynchus and Salvelinus

KerryS
10-10-2002, 09:11 AM
Ryan,

Let me see here..........the last time I saw you on the river neither of us caught anything and the time before that I think, I was the one that hooked a steelhead. If I remember right, you spent most of your time struggling with your cast.

How’s this for steelhead? On the Ronde last week I averaged at least 1 steelhead a day with some days bringing 2 to hand. How many steelhead have you caught lately?

K

juro
10-10-2002, 09:30 AM
In an attempt to keep things on the high road folks...

There is an interesting question here; I always understood the term salmonid to be a valid classification for trout, char, salmon (including oncho), grayling, and possibly even some of those similar species found in Europe and Asia like the taimen.

Is that not the case? The shift from salmo to oncho for rainbow trout and thus steelhead proves that scientific jargon means little or nothing. The fish hasn't changed a bit! :)

NrthFrk16
10-10-2002, 10:35 AM
Sure Kerry.... :rolleyes:

Dont worry everyone, him and myself are just having a little fun.

KerryS
10-10-2002, 11:18 AM
Ryan,

Glad to see you take this in jest as it was intended. I was a little concerned after Juro's post you might not.

Good fishing to you and if you need some help with your cast or finding a steelhead just give me a shout.

Kerry

Steelheader69
10-10-2002, 01:14 PM
Last few weeks, fishing has been really good to me. Been doing alot of fishing down by the coast. Have hit a few steelhead and some nice cutts thanks to the low water. Had to do some wading to get to since rivers to low to float, but worth it. Then, have been doing AWESOME hitting silvers and kings. Kings mostly on hardware, but silvers on a mixture of hardware and flies. Been a good month of fishing. Next week is my fishing vacation. Fishing 24/7. Hope we get some more rain to get tribs in shape. Don't mind fishing the big rivers, but prefer to fish the tribs.

One last note. Finally got my girlfriend (Rivergal) into her first king. A very nice 37# buck. Fought that big boy for an hour, ran us half way to the ocean, and was very legally fair hooked to boot. Thought it may have been snagged by how he was running, but the rod pumping with headshakes said otherwise. Now she's really hooked. :D

Leland Miyawaki
10-10-2002, 05:27 PM
I fish for trout, steelhead and Pacific salmon and searun cutthroat off the Puget Sound beaches. In comparing the three types of fishing, I've come to the conclusion that my choice of flyfishing a popper only for salmon and searuns is really hard, tough work, besides getting dirty and sticky/smelly after a days fishing. Flyfishing for steelhead, while never easy, can be the most relaxing of the three, except for those moments of sheer terror we all can relate to.

Trout fishing, on the other hand, to do it well on moving water (forget about mindlessly dragging a bugger in stillwater behind a tube) takes a lot of concentration and knowledge as well as excellent technique and skills. And it can be as easy and as difficult as you choose.

Say you step up to a riffle in a spring creek in June in the midst of a baetis hatch. Solving the hatch shouldn't be a problem with a little observation (and maybe prior experience in the same water at the same time last season). Later in the year, however, multiple and/or masking hatches can be tougher to solve. But let's say, you know it's a size 18 baetis and you have a box full of duns and cripples in varying patterns. You're all set. All you have left is to work out the riddle of the conflicting currents that conspire to keep your fly from drifting drag-free through the feeding lanes. If you're good, catching a lot of fish can be ridiculously easy. That's if you're looking for numbers and you want to come back home to post a report about how easy the fishing was on such and such river. But if you pick out and target the "alpha" trout that's sticking it's nose up across the stream in the best lie, you'll find that what was once easy is no longer. You may not catch it and you might even put down the other trout in the pool while trying and heaven forbid have to walk away from the pool skunked.

So while one might think what we do is easy, with a little hard work, we can make it damn near impossible.

Leland.

pmflyfisher
10-10-2002, 08:30 PM
Leland,

Good write up I agree. I got skunked this summer on that ultra clear spring creek in South Dakota that had a number of big ones. I did not know the river or what hatches were on. I was guessing with caddis, hoppers, and ants. Get this the water temp was 48 degrees (bottom draw reservoir) and the air temp was a beautiful 80 degree blue sky day. Not the conditions to try and fool these wary trout.

Maybe I should stick with steelheading ? I started as a eastern trout fisherman with finicky Catskill trout matching the hatch etc..

Hal

NrthFrk16
10-10-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by KerryS

Good fishing to you and if you need some help with your cast or finding a steelhead just give me a shout.

Kerry

One must be specific Kerry...I dont need help with my casting (unless we are discussing two-handers) and I sure as Hell dont need help finding a steelhead. :cool: ...but thanks for the offer!! ;)

Anyways, glad to here your trip to the Rhonde went very well!!!! Planning on making another trip over there??

juro
10-11-2002, 05:15 AM
Leland -

Well said, friend. Angling is what you make it, and we are truly lucky to have choices and variety each with it's own wonderful challenges.

I hope you come out to fish the sugar white flats of Cape Cod to sight fish for 40" striped bass with us soon! It's a nice blend of sticky/smelly, relaxing, and technical fishing all at once.

KerryS
10-11-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by NrthFrk16


One must be specific Kerry...I dont need help with my casting (unless we are discussing two-handers) and I sure as Hell dont need help finding a steelhead. :cool: ...but thanks for the offer!! ;)



I was talking about the day we met at Fortson. You complained that your casting sucked and mentioned you must have looked like a cracker(what ever that is).:smokin: If you need help with your 2 handed casting, I don't think I'm the one to give instruction. The only advice I can give you is the same advice given to me. SLOW DOWN! :devil:

jetsled
10-11-2002, 01:47 PM
thats right Kerry, slow down.

KerryS
10-11-2002, 01:50 PM
Hey Brad, your email working?

How was the drive home?