What do you use for a herring pattern? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: What do you use for a herring pattern?


doogue
02-18-2002, 10:57 PM
All,

I am trying to decide upon a stellar fly for imitating large herring. Basically, I want to use it to catch some of the cow bass that I see the live herring chuckers landing during the spring.

Here are some of the flies that I have tied and/or am thinking about tying:

-Capt. Ray's Angel Hair fly (blue/green over white)
-Sedotti's Slammer
-A Buffy type of fly (some type of fly with a spreader)
-A big slab fly (deer hair head) with long hackles and a full body

Any thoughts? What do you guys rely on for herring patterns in the spring?

Has anyone played around with tying strategies for the lead keel on the Sedotti Slammer? Striblue? How many 1/2 inch pieces of lead (I actually prefer to use lead-free wire) do you need on a keel for an 8 inch fly?

Thanks,

Mike

striblue
02-18-2002, 11:59 PM
Mike, I have tied a keel on the Sedoti Slammer.. Basically wound lead on the shank.. but I save those for boat trips in deeper water. Try tying some herring patterns ala Puglasi style with near hair.. also if you have Ververkas book he has a number of hearing patterns ... some tyed out of Ultra hair as well. Big Deciever patterns work well and are simple to tye... Trey Combs has some nice BIG herring patterns as well and he uses alot of super or ultra hair.... Look at some big Blue water flies and just make them a bit smaller.

Dble Haul
02-19-2002, 09:14 AM
Mike- You could try tying up some Grocery flies, which are just deceivers with a "high tie". After securing the saddle hackles, flash, and first bunches of bucktail, secure additional bunches of bucktail and continue on towards the eye of the hook. These extra bucktail additions will give the fly a high profile so that it pushes extra water. It also maintains a thin profile when viewed from the front or back, suggestive of a herring.

RayStachelek
02-19-2002, 09:17 AM
Mike

Throw in a few flatwing patterns. That should cover it. You'd be surprise how effective they are. Large profiles, easy to cast, and great blend of colors make them very fishy. Use the 6 inch strung saddle hackles.

juro
02-19-2002, 09:50 AM
My best herring pattern is a spin-off on Page Roger's Bigeye Baitfish. It requires very good hackles of a large well-formed saddle variety and has bucktail and/or other materials flaring off the top and bottom to increase the slab profile. My version doesn't use the reflective willow leaf gill plate and I top the fly with baitfish angelhair. I do use a gillplate but prefer to use something a little more realistic than the factory spinner blade sticker.

I also tie a large version of my juvie pattern which is a coho salmon fly I used to fish a lot out west many moons ago adapted for stripers. The unique aspect of that fly is the white marabou abdomen which creates a foil and activates the saddle hackles to "swim" when retrieved. Look for "juro's juvie" in the archives.

The key to herring patterns is finding quality saddle hackles, IMHO the most important ingredient in a herring fly.

Adrian
02-19-2002, 10:10 AM
I'll be tying up some Abrames razzle dazzles which sound similar in principle to the Page Rogers pattern Juro describes above. Similar need for exceptional quality saddles and use of flared bucktail to create the illusions of depth.

The great thing about these flies is they can be tied up to 15 inches long (if you can find the right saddle) and still cast with an 8 or 9wt.

Lefty
02-19-2002, 11:31 AM
Like these but blue on top.
See recipe at: Here! (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk3/showthread.php?threadid=1649)

Lefty
http://flyfishingforum.com/expertise/flytying/striperflies/yakbrnyellow3.jpg

capt_gordon
02-19-2002, 04:33 PM
I like the hi tie type of thing found on groceries and slammers, both basically a variation of a deceiver pattern. Lots of hair and big feathers. I have also tied a few on tubes for when I wanted to get them ridiculously large.:hehe:

juro
02-19-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Adrian
I'll be tying up some Abrames razzle dazzles which sound similar in principle to the Page Rogers pattern Juro describes above. Similar need for exceptional quality saddles and use of flared bucktail to create the illusions of depth.

The great thing about these flies is they can be tied up to 15 inches long (if you can find the right saddle) and still cast with an 8 or 9wt.

I love razzles but these two flies vary dramatically in design, both are good.

Page Roger's bigeye baitfish is a slabsided broad profile (thin vertically) pattern whereas razzle dazzle is a flatwinged long thin profile 'snake like' fly as I've seen them tied anyway.

Both great flies!

doogue
02-19-2002, 05:13 PM
OK guys,

Thanks for the great feedback.

Your comments bring up a few more questions.

Flatwings
I have been tying lots of flatwings after watching Todd Murphy tie some up at the Marlboro show (man he is a great teacher!). As a herring imitation how bulky would you make the fly? I guess the question is this: how many hackles will you tie in flatwing style if you are imitating a larger baitfish? Do you leave lots of marabou on the hackles to give the fly extra bulk?

Lefty's Fly
Lefty, that is a sweet looking fly. My only concern is that the fly might be prone to fouling. What type of synthetics did you use in the fly and did you take any added precautions to prevent fouling (i.e. coat the fly with Softex back to the hook bend)? I like the idea of using hackles as an anti-fouling device. The hackle stems get thicker and more rigid as you get closer to the eye of the fly. That is sort of a bonus - especially since the hackles get all thin and wiggly towards the tail of the fly where you really want some action to entice the fish.

Finally, the hi-tie grocery deceiver is a fly that I should have in my box. I agree.

Thanks Men,

Mike

Adrian
02-19-2002, 10:07 PM
Mark

The modern flatwing concept which Kenny Abrames has popularised is more about what's not there rather than what is.

The idea is to create an illusion of life through movement, color and the suggestion of an outline rather than something solid.

Remember how Todd tied in the bucktail so that it flared out around the fly leaving lots of space? These patterns really come to life when drifted in a current or when retrieved slowly.

Less is More ;)

Hopefully the herring and big stripers will arrive in RI just in time for the spring clave!

FishHawk
02-20-2002, 06:51 AM
Mike for quality saddles I use a Bronze Whiting Saddle in the primary colors. I recently found that Hare line has a quality saddle for $16 which are very good quality saddles for half the price of the Whiting. You might have to have them sepcially ordered as I did . Scott at the Bears's Den will order you the quality hackles.
FishHawk:smokin:

jared
02-20-2002, 01:14 PM
enrico's....tied in half-dollar sizes all the way up to 10-12"...Terry had one of the juvie versions, but a fish swiped it.

--j

Stan
02-20-2002, 01:43 PM
Mike you need to wrap the shank with the lead then take approx 15pieces of it and tie it on like a keel. If you want Mark is usually on Dan Blanton's board. You can ask him direct.

Captdaveb
02-20-2002, 04:01 PM
I got to agree with Adrian on the Ken Abrames patterns. Fished slow and methodical, they can't be beat. They are so light and they really breathe in the water and look alive. Shorten up those tippets though. They tend to have air resistance. The hackle they are tied with are beautiful!

I also fish a very large spring herring pattern that I tie with Enrico Sea Fibers, also called EP-Fibers by Enrico Puglisi. The pattern can be varied in length up to a foot long or so. I tend to fish it very deep on a 400-475 grain sinking line. It does not breathe like the Abrames patterns, so I tend to fish it pretty fast. Bring a comb with you, because it will matt up after a couple of fish. I slammed some nice fish in May with it last year in 15-18 feet of water.

I tie it on a larger hook 3/0 or 4/0. Black Danville flat-waxed nylon, pink Ep on the top of the shank. Then Olive over that. Then long peacock herl on the top of the back of some black Krystal flash. White EP goes on the belly and a red beard up by the neck with bucktail or marabou. I add 3D prism eyes and it's done.

Not very pretty, but when big herring are around, stripers will slam it.

Lefty
02-21-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by doogue
OK guys,

Lefty's Fly
Lefty, that is a sweet looking fly. My only concern is that the fly might be prone to fouling. What type of synthetics did you use in the fly and did you take any added precautions to prevent fouling (i.e. coat the fly with Softex back to the hook bend)? I like the idea of using hackles as an anti-fouling device. The hackle stems get thicker and more rigid as you get closer to the eye of the fly. That is sort of a bonus - especially since the hackles get all thin and wiggly towards the tail of the fly where you really want some action to entice the fish.

Mike

Good questions Mike. The main fiber is Yak hair which tends to stay stiffer than some fiber. I do get some fouling though and your idea of using softex or some other helper is a good one. I'll try that hackle idea too if I ever tie any more of these. The truth is, I rareley use these giants. And my perception is that everyone else uses this whole class of flies rarely too. They are big and nice but more work to cast. You get sick of chucking them after a while. So I don't mind a little tangling. But I will always believe that one could make an art form out of fishing these big dudes, especially on the No. Shore. If that's all you did and fished em deep like the live liners you could become regionally famous for landing huge stripers (like the ones rumored to be in Chatham, as if...grumble mumble, eye twitch).
Is this your calling? Hint: Baker's Island.

Lefty

jeffg
02-21-2002, 10:48 AM
http://flyfishingforum.com/flyswaps/striper2001/JeffG.jpg

not sure if this worked, as I suck at attaching images etc., but I have been messing around with this type of pattern to imitate bigger baitfish--this is supposed to be a pollack, but it will pass for a herring. You might just vary the color scheme a little or add a little more flash--instructions are in the flypattern archive under "pollack".

Otherwise I agree with practically every other suggestion--Big eye baitfish, grocery flies, flatwings, slabs.

Terry makes a great point--if you are dedicated to fishing big flies, you can make an artform out of it. Seems to make a little more sense up here north of the cape where the predominant bait is not a sandeel.

It's not as fun as tossing small flies on an intermediate, but you don't need to make long casts to fish deep spots usually.......

capt_gordon
02-21-2002, 11:19 AM
You should see the size of the "herrins" the local guys use for bait down here and the size of the fish they catch on them. Also the menhaden that come down the coast in the winter here are quite large. I like the idea of a big deer hair head. I don't think the colors make much difference, the size and the profile are much more important as long as you get it in their faces. I am going to give it a go this spring on the Roanoke.

grego
02-21-2002, 02:48 PM
Here's my first attempt at A Herring Type Fly.

I also, agree with Terry that you really have to work at this type of Fly Fishing. Typically (95% of the time), I find myself in situations where fish are actively feeding on Smaller Baits?

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/logo1/herring.jpg

doogue
02-24-2002, 10:26 PM
Guys,

Thanks for all of the advice concerning the herring patterns. I tied a bunch of modified Sedotti Slammer inspired flies (his slammers imitate bunker as depicted in Veverka's book). I tied a few flies that were about 10" long and then I scaled them down to a 6" version for the saltwater fly swap. I love the schlappen hackles. They are nice and wide yet wiggly enough to provide lots of action through the tail of the fly. The ample marabou also makes for a full-bodied fly that is not too heavy and has lots of action through the body.

Here is what I came up with...

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/kstabler/slammer_500.jpg