Digital Lake & River Maps [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Digital Lake & River Maps


pmflyfisher
01-20-2002, 08:52 PM
Looks like the electronic digitalization of our lakes and rivers are well are there way to make it easier for every one to ultimately catch fish. Per our other thread, information technology is a threat to our fisheries.

Check this out. I hope they do all of the lakes and ocean shores first and leave the trout and salmon rivers for last, or never would be better. Would you want every one knowing where the good runs and holes are on your home waters ? This is sure going to help a lot of people. ESPN site outdoors section now has this on it. Looks like a new feature added recently.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/oims/index.html

The firm which is offering this is Outdoor Intelligence, below is their URL. They just started in 2001. On ESPN Outdoors site they have all lakes now. They are offering this technology to all sorts of fishing and outdoor web sites.

Looks dangerous to me, takes a good part of the learning curve out of learning how and when to fish the waters.

Outdoor Intelligence (http://www.outdoorintelligence.com)

:eek: :eek:

FlyMan
01-23-2002, 09:43 AM
"Looks dangerous to me, takes a good part of the learning curve out of learning how and when to fish the waters."


I guess then friendship with a more experienced flyfisher who is willing to share his/her knowledge is also "dangerous" and takes a good part of the learning curve away. As do books, videos, magazines, TU meetings and fly shows.

Each person's learning curve is different, and some people will never "get it" no matter how much technology and information is out there. For those who DO learn more quickly, then what's wrong with maximizing one's time on the water, especially when some of us don't get to spend as many hours on the water as we would like?

Lefty
01-23-2002, 10:36 AM
When everyone "maximizes their time on the water" there is an increase in pressure on the resource. That's just mathematics. The question is how much?

In all the hoopla about the benefits of the internet, (and I agree there are many that I have reaped) it's not a bad idea to check or question the impact on the resource.
PMFlyfisher has referred to this idea in other threads and was treated like an anti technology heretic. Well I think it's something we ought to monitor and get more data on. I'm not going to just get in line and say "Gee the internet is wonderful and don't you dare question it". The data I'm going on is the number of striper fishermen whom I've personnally witnessed go from little or no skill to catching keepers routinely on their own flies in 1 or 2 seasons. You can't tell me that is not having an impact. The question is how much? The other question is how much conservation info they get along with it. I'm sure there are meat fisherman boards too.

Lefty

juro
01-23-2002, 12:22 PM
Interesting topic. You could look at it both ways...

Take 20 people from a busy showroom floor at a sporting show, line them up. Put the avid, fly tying, constant keeper catching internet surfin' savvy anglers on one side of the aisle. Put the grandpa taught me set-in-his-ways introverts on the other. Which would you trust to look after the welfare of a species? I would choose the more informed, more experienced, more savvy guy every time. People don't get good at fishing unless they absorb lots of information and process it to be applied to the problem at hand. Smart anglers don't bite the hand that feeds them and the internet unites such people to give the resources a chance in the fight against exploitation of our natural treasures while nobody was looking. History proves that the enemy is not us, but the lack of us.

If everyone on earth was an experienced flyfisherman, we'd be a lot better off.

I sincerely believe that an informed angler is far less harmful than one who only knows enough to be dangerous. He releases almost everything he catches, harasses fewer juvenile fish (just little stuff here, move on), and is perfectly secure about doing all his fishing without a barb or bait due to his advanced skill level. All it takes is a crowd of amateur fishermen with rod holders and lawn chairs to see what fish carnage is all about. By bringing people to advanced skill levels as quickly as possible you are sparing the fish from the abuse of unknowing sportsman on a shallow learning curve. :devil:

Lefty
01-23-2002, 01:42 PM
Of course on the "avid, fly tying, constant keeper catching internet surfin' savvy anglers" side of the room there are 479 guys. (like a July afternoon on Momonoy..doh) On the introvert side of the room there's 3 beer bellied dudes. Still mathematics. :D

Lefty
01-23-2002, 01:54 PM
Another thought: They ought to start with digital images of the underwater contours of every square inch of Chatham inlet. In front of the lighthouse they could put acoustic mapping devices underwater that update every week or so in case there are any changes. Then we could do a wireless connection to this database with our handheld fish finders, and cast our flies to the nearest lunker.
(still wouldn't help me, Chatham bites!). But my point is, where do you draw the line? Tis a subject for honest debate.

He say:

"If everyone on earth was an experienced flyfisherman, we'd be a lot better"

Ya NO parking spaces left at ANY fishing spots either. Forget the causeway...:smokin:

FlyMan
01-23-2002, 02:47 PM
Juro is 100% correct. EDUCATION is the key to the survival of our resources. Digital maps are only an aid.

I think a handful of uncaring flyfishers are going to do more damage than 100 educated people.

As far as the original poster's comments go, it kind of depends on what his main reason to post was.

If it was to complain that more inexperienced fishermen were going to be encroaching on his areas and making it not as pleasant for him to fish, then maybe the maps aren't the problem, but rather too many experienced fisherman not making enough room for the lesser experienced to enjoy the sport as well. That's one way of looking at it. Not a pleasant thought for many, I'm sure.

Another is from the comments made about too much pressure on the fish and our resources. Again, the pressure is going to come from those experienced anglers who have learned all the secrets that are truly hammering the fish. The inexperienced are just out there pounding the water.

Please don't get me wrong. All the opinions I have read are of value. But the real solution to the problem is NOT getting rid of digital maps or anything else. It's EDUCATION!

Those newer anglers who learn and appreciate what we have will not be a problem.

Those who don't learn, well, we'll just have to hope they slip on a rock, drown, and end up becoming fish food. :chuckle:

pmflyfisher
01-23-2002, 07:23 PM
Interesting comments, the bottom line is that the information revolution has enabled people's knowledge in ALL subject areas, not just fishing. I think you would all agree.

The more quality information that is available for people to learn and make decisions, which the internet has provided, the more quickly they can become skilled in the subject area such as fly fishing or a specific way to fish a particular fishery, thus the more productive they will become faster resulting in a greater volume of competent fishers. Also our population is increasing.

Since the fisheries are not expanding materially (a new man made lake every year or so, but no new rivers that I know of)over time there will be more pressure and depletion (demand) on our fixed fishery resources. The basic economic supply and demand model applies. Demand rises and the fixed Supply (fisheries) decreases over time.

If information technology is not controlled it will be a major risk to our society in the long term. My opinion. Read Future Schock - Alvin Toffler.

By the way I am not an anti-technology person, having a computer systems, business admin, MBA finance degrees and been working in IT/financial management for major international corporations for 27 years I know how fast IT has evolved in just the last 5 years with the internet connecting the world's information and people together.

Now Privacy Director for a major international financial services company's north american operations. Beleive me people are very concerned about their personal privacy (you should see some of the letters I have received) and misuse of their information through information technology is one of their main concerns they see as a threat.

We will see, it benefits me, and I and probably most others on this forumn are not a threat. However, I have heard stories on other fishing boards where reports of good fishing in a certain area result in 40 cars at the site the next day all due to the power of the information technology now available.

I personally don't want digital online maps of the rivers I fish available. I would rather figure it out myself like we have done to date. That is half of the challenge of fishing, figuring out how to do it.

Anyway it is a new risk to our fisheries we should all be aware of and not abuse.

Hawkeye
01-23-2002, 09:04 PM
The hard fact is that nothing can or will be done about things like this in our society. For the most part that is a good thing and has made us what we are today.

The supply and demand scenario is a good one but I think it does not go far enough through the cycle. As demand increases and, at least relative, supply decreases the supply will have greater value. With greater value comes increased protective measures such as more no kill zones, increased size limits, decreased bag limits and shorter seasons. For many, those additional protective measures will decrease the attractiveness of the sport and thus the demand will decrease. The ones who stick with it through the tighter protective measures will be around when the relative supply increases and will be there to mentor the inevitable "masses" creating the return of greater demand.

If we value the resources we use it seems to me that only good can come from teaching others how to use those resources and value them as we do.

pmflyfisher
01-24-2002, 06:03 AM
Here is an example of detailed web based specific information data base updated daily with web cams of steelhead streams in western NYS - Lake Erie. Sure the digitalized river maps will be added as soon as available.

Imagine how fast anglers converge on these small streams.

I don't think you would want this on favorite home rivers.

Surf around this one, I am sure there are more of these types coming on the web.

http://www.noodlebagger.com/

juro
01-24-2002, 07:18 AM
I think the most important outcome of this debate is a credo for us, the members of the Forum, to live and play by.

We have experienced the backlash of our own success at certain locations because of our exhuberance and pictures posted, etc. But this is no different than a book, in fact a book is much more thorough by nature and can come along in your car to tell you which street to turn on.

Anyway, what we have done thus far to mitigate this risk is to adopt the following methods of sharing our wildest hotspots (and we DO have some hot spots!):

a) discuss details offline, but celebrate publicly online (big fish pics, no details).

b) invite those who are the biggest contributors to the community and personally show them these goldmines and how to fish them

c) we ask that people do not use this knowledge selfishly once shown, we consider them an important part of the reward system

Sounds like I am dreaming about how good these spots are, but I assure you those who have gone to mecca will agree that they are that good. These aren't spots that are being shared on line, I will assure you of that.

Sharing general knowledge is healthy. Giving away the farm serves no one but those who do not deserve it. We have plenty of killer spot knowledge. We are just good as distributing it amongst ourselves and it is tied into the honor code - those who do the most get the most first.

Lefty
01-24-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by juro

..We have experienced the backlash of our own success at certain locations because of our exhuberance and pictures posted, etc.

Agree.

But this is no different than a book, in fact a book is much more thorough by nature and can come along in your car to tell you which street to turn on.

Disagree. The rate at which the internet spreads information can not be compared to a book. Totally different, the web eclipses books.


Sharing general knowledge is healthy. Giving away the farm serves no one but those who do not deserve it. We have plenty of killer spot knowledge. We are just good as distributing it amongst ourselves and it is tied into the honor code - those who do the most get the most first.

Agree. I'm glad to see you have softened your tone from ALL OUT WEB ENTHUSIAM-Where education is what protects the resource- to a position of caution over what info we divulge. That's what the original concern regarding digital mapping was about. Those damn downlinks from satellites that use inrared scanning of Monomoy dude. Hawkeye may be right. It may be impossible to stop any of this stuff. And what of tradition? If FF has a traditional component, how geeky should we get with our technology? Remember, we are only a few years into the Web's impact on society. Web enthusiasm needs to be checked. There's no manual for what we're creating here. That's not a negative statement, but a responsible one. Bla bla bla.
At some level this is also a bunch of abstract BS. When can we go fishing?

Lefty

pmflyfisher
01-25-2002, 05:59 AM
Yes I think the web is more dangerous than a book with its ability to provide daily information to a large audience on the status of fishing in a specific fishery. Never seen a book which could do that.

That web site I referenced above on Lake Erie steelhead streams
has daily web cam shots of a number of rivers plus if you are a member for $ 60 a year get to the members only where the guide shop gives you expert advice on the conditions and what to use, where to fish etc. I suppose. Thats what it sounds like from reading the FAQs on this site.

Yes this would save fisherman a lot of wasted time going to the river, when conditions are not good and expedite their learning curve, etc...

Not what we need at least for fishing, now for other subject areas in our society this type of technology is beneficial, but please not fishing, supposedly a solitary peaceful sport.

I have been through combat fishing scenarios, and at this point in my life, I will avoid them to the point of not fishing, it is just to much hazzle and spoils the sedentary experience.

Then I will golf where I will have a peaceful and fairly sedentary experience with a 90% probabilibily.

Hope this stuff does not get really out of control

Gotta go (To Work) :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk:

juro
01-25-2002, 08:59 AM
We are bouncing around a lot... I thought the concern was about impact on the resource, but it now seems to be about an angler's personal experience ("parking lot full", "peaceful", etc). I believe we've established that the resource is better off with smart C&R FF'ers in the world due to a penchant for conservation and lifeblood connection to the health of the river, lake and sea. Who else would fight against dams, over-harvest, contamination and abuse of the resource besides anglers and outdoorsmen?

So let's discuss two more things: Movies and TV.

Television eclipes the web by orders of magnitude worldwide, for the time being.

The movie "A River Runs Through It" had a bigger impact on private fishing holes than any other media event in history, including any website you can name.

My point is the web is the web. It's good and it's bad. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. The future is in our own hands.

Lefty
01-25-2002, 10:02 AM
No we're not bouncing around any more than any other philosophical debate in the dead of winter. I think the comments have stayed pretty much within the topic. If you want to see a thread that took a dirt road go look at how I blew the Pike swap thread. :whoa:

Originally posted by juro


My point is the web is the web. It's good and it's bad. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. The future is in our own hands.

We ARE being part of the solution by being concerned about the role that technology is playing in impacting the resource, and discussing it here. Most people here have respectable crudentials in doing conservation. So that's a non starter. But as you said we shouldn't give away the farm. Some guy is probably out there right now putting a camera or something on a honeyhole-it might be your favorite Steelie pool too. Are you for or against?
I'm against. I don't think any ammount of web based conservation education can offset that. And as for the Lazez Faire notion of letting the supply and demand "market" drive away fishermen when things get depleted as a way of balancing out the impact- what right wing dogma. The woods and streams and oceans need protection period. Protection from overlogging, overdevelopment etc. And maybe that protection should extend to prevent handing the jewels of the outdoors over to people on a silver platter through techology or the web without the work. Reply away, but I rest my case cause I hate when threads turn into pissing contests.

Lefty

timwatts
01-25-2002, 05:49 PM
Been a good Cod bite out a Green Haba for the past couple weeks, bout a mile southeast of Farnhams rock 80 feet of water will get ya a belly full.;)

Roop
01-25-2002, 06:45 PM
Interesting thread.

1. People who are going to rely on the internet as a sole source of "how to" catch fish with a fly rod are not going to stick around long enough to be a consistent nuisance.

2. People who become interested in fly fishing because of the internet and then turn to a living breathing mentor will have an impact. It's the mentor's responsibility to foster respect and conservation of the resources.

3. In a fly fishing contest, I'll put my money on the person who learned how to FF the hard way, trial & error and learning from others against any yahoo who just turns to the internet for their primer.

It's up to anyone who has the ultimate interest of the resource, not their own selfish intentions, to be a steward of the resource and educate others. The human factor will overcome any
give-aways the internet provides. (and if that doesn't work, wack 'em in the back of the head with a clouser!!) ;)

Roop

pmflyfisher
01-25-2002, 07:59 PM
This is my last statement on this subject (I hope)

Technology is a threat just like all of the others to our fisheries and other areas of society.

Hopefully, one that will be managed prudently.

It will take legislation and enforcement , which has proved in the past to not be effective in most areas of society.

On to other subjects but lets not forget this one.

ssully
01-25-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Roop
Interesting thread.
The human factor will overcome any give-aways the internet provides. (and if that doesn't work, wack 'em in the back of the head with a clouser!!) ;)

Roop

Roop I wouldn't recommend that, when the guy next to you is tossing a 3oz. Gibbs plug with barbed trebles. :D

Hawkeye
01-25-2002, 11:18 PM
"And as for the Lazez Faire notion of letting the supply and demand "market" drive away fishermen when things get depleted as a way of balancing out the impact- what right wing dogma."

Ok I really didn't explain that very well. A few points:

Right wing - Yeah that's me.

Dogma - I don't think so, in fact I believe the processes behind supply and demand are universally accepted as law. Reminds me of my favorite rock climbing tee-shirt "Gravity: It's not just a good idea it's the law."

Lazez Faire - I didn't intend that attitude though I can see how I came across that way. The restrictions I mentioned (no kill zones, higher size limits, lower bag limits, longer closed seasons, etc.) never, ever, EVER happen without someone, and usually a large group of someones, caring for and valuing a resource they see as in danger. This is not an easy thing to do and is about as far from Lazez Faire as you can get.

Finally I wasn't talking about fishermen being driven away by a depleted resource (though saddly that does happen) but rather losing interest due to restrictions like I had mentioned. A perfect example of this process was recently described in another thread. I think it was pmflyfisher who told of a river or section of river that was closed to the harvesting of fish and a landowner sold his property on that river rather than have his friends/clients release their catch. Now I don't know how much pressure those few people were putting on that river but they are no longer fishing it and they left not because the resource had been depleted but rather because it had become less appealing to them to fish the river. The cost to utilize that resource went up and the demand went down.

pmflyfisher
01-26-2002, 06:28 AM
I guess my previous post was not my last post on this subject.

Yes that was me who described a corporate land owner on the holy water of a blue ribbon michigan steelhead trout stream who sold out due to changing the river 3 years ago to all no kill all the time. Corp. clients could not kill their fish any more and were not to interested although this is in the middle of national scenic waterway area and beleive me the most prime area of the fishery. They had owned this property for at least the last 20 years.

Agree on the other point that it takes a huge lobbying effort of concerted groups to get these additional river restrictions or hatchery/wild fish rules implemented. It is not easy dealing with the public and governmental entities on these issues.

When it comes to controlling technology, such as internet usage and maintaining privacy of rivers or other fisheries I think it is going to be far down on the list of federal and state governments. Personnal privacy will come first and their are lots of new regulations coming down on that which I am involved with in my job.

By the way, with the US legal system of "states rights" we are going to be dependent upon the 50 states to adopt and enforce technology laws just like they are responsible for in most other public and commercial law subject areas now. This is a legal mess, which I am dealing with now from a state insurance legislation stand point.

I don't see the states being effective in controlling the use of internet and other technologies based on our current legal framework with the rapid proliferation of new technologies that is now upon us. This is not just a threat to our fisheries but all areas of society. Look at the size of the adult sites on the internet site and the ineffective controls there are on them by federal and state authorities. Not a good sign for the management of technology.

Yes I am going to keep my golf game up so at least I will have one sport where I can possibly have a peaceful, sedentary, outdoor experience. I don't think technology will ever be allowed to spoil this great individual sport.

Who knows maybe my fly fishing will be regulated to a couple of trips a year to private controlled waters where I must pay a fee, like the European countries have implemented on most of their rivers. You know what, if I could be assured of a sedentary experience on a quality fishery, I would pay gladly for that experience.

This is to depressing for me to discuss further, I am not going to look back at this thread unless the sites management forces me to.

But please do not add digital maps and daily video cams of any rivers to this site. Or add links to other fishing informational or vendor sites which are pushing that technology.

My opinion.

Hal

:( :(

Lefty
01-26-2002, 08:38 AM
Hawkeye,
Thanks for the first rate clarification. The rest of you pain in the butts: Just shake your head up and down and say "Yes, this is something we should keep an eye on". See wasn't that easy?

juro
01-26-2002, 08:52 AM
Hal -

Let me begin by saying how much I admire your conviction to the cause of peaceful enjoyment (the "sporting life") and protection of the resources. These things are soo important in this day and age. Your conviction tells me that you are definitely a steelheader, and I look forward to working a run with you... but I wanna go first! :D

To your point the internet will do to society and our lovely blue planet as much as the telephone, radio, television, and air travel did in the decades that preceeded us - in fact it already has started to have an effect and there is probably no end in sight.

My perspective was not to counter this point as much as to try to express that there is just as much good on the web as evil and I've spent a good bit of effort trying to prove that with the Forum, and will continue to do so. Therefore I am compelled to participate in this thread with some degree of passion, the matter is at the core of the Forum's existence.

Thanks for your participation not only in this but all of the contributions you've made to this community. I am serious about the steelheader part!

Off to tie some swap flies :rolleyes:

Osprey
01-26-2002, 05:32 PM
Regardless of how much infomation you can get from any source the desire to persue it and the enthusiasm for the activity whether it's flyfishing or quilting is what will draw people to that activity.
I remeber when "A River Runs Through It" came out there seemed to be a lot of new hacks on the water. Most of those people were enamoured with the idea of flyfishing but found the reality of it was more effort than they were willing to give it.
Everything looks easy when someone else is doing it. A year later there was a lot of nice used gear for sale in Uncle Henry's Sell It- Swap It Guide.
No amount of information is going to get people off the desk chair and into waders. The love for this sport and dedication it takes to become proficient at it doesn't happen with a few visits to FFF or ESPN.com. Most of us welcome the broadening our skills derived from the places we glean it provide. The internet is just another tool. Whether it's Taboury's "Stripers on the Fly" or Nastasi's "Hatches" they don't instill character toward or love for this passtime. What does is when folks share their knowledge and experience- When a father watches his son catch his first brookie on his first fly rod- Just look at the intensity with which Ian is listening to Ray in the photo that was posted. These can't be gotton from a book or a web site- just enhanced and maybe improved- These are nurtured over time. My older son doesn't have the love of fishing that Ian does, nurtured the same, exposed to the same, given the same equipment as a youngster. Just a different boy.
The biggest threat to anything is ignorance not information.

Chris
01-26-2002, 09:35 PM
:o :o
Boy is my face red...
If you didn't figure it I actually wrote the last post. In my haste I forgot to log Ian out and myself in.

Lefty
01-27-2002, 08:25 AM
Don't you hate when someone says their done with a thread and then they keeping dropping in?

Ok one more quikee:

It's not safe to assume that only conservation minded FF'men will use the web cams to raid the hot spots. Who says they will be FF only? C+R only? They might be worm dunkers too. You can't predict that only those truly dedicated to the sport will show up at these honey holes and practice good stewardship. Any form of fisherman can show up. Try this experiment: post some of our great fishing reports on the Mass Striped Bass board and see who shows up.
Lefty

pmflyfisher
01-27-2002, 09:00 AM
Yep, agree and remember something like 70+% of US homes have PCs now. Actually to me it seems like every one has them and is wired to the net. Only know a few people who are not and they are in over 70 years old.

If we keep visiting the sites with the web cams, digital maps, or other expert specific fishery knowledge we will just be increasing the demand for that product and these web sites and vendors potential success in proliferating the technology. One thing we can do is not frequent those sites and perhaps over time they will go out of business.

Remember the predicted huge conversion of all areas of our society to the web three years ago and the thousands of dot com companies which started up to service it and the result of that. The demand for all of those net based products never was realized and only a few have survived. Amazon just made 1 cent per share earnings last year. I would not consider them an economic success would you ? They may not be around long term either.

That is my strategy for now, don't visit or support those sites or vendors which support these technologies that could harm our fisheries and the quality of the fishing experience.

Here I am a technology educated guy and bashing technology. Thats because it is dangerous to certain areas of our society. To many areas it is beneficial, but the dangerous areas must be managed, which I am afraid our government will not be effective at.

Now I am done with this thread.

juro
01-28-2002, 06:26 AM
Well we've kicked this one around pretty hard and it's still a dead horse ;)

We all have our opinions in the matter; I don't see the internet as a threat, it's people I worry about.

But on the other hand, we were able to conduct this discussion because of one reason... the INTERNET! :devil:

ssully
01-28-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Lefty
Don't you hate when someone says their done with a thread and then they keeping dropping in?

Ok one more quikee:

It's not safe to assume that only conservation minded FF'men will use the web cams to raid the hot spots. Who says they will be FF only? C+R only? They might be worm dunkers too. You can't predict that only those truly dedicated to the sport will show up at these honey holes and practice good stewardship. Any form of fisherman can show up. Try this experiment: post some of our great fishing reports on the Mass Striped Bass board and see who shows up.
Lefty

Ya never know when some lurker Ahole will show up and clean the place out with sluggos! :D I heard Monomoy is ripe for picken.

juro
01-29-2002, 06:11 AM
Sully -

Monomoy is tough, the fish are too smart (must be reading the internet)... but I know this secret spot called "Plum Island"... :devil: