Where are the Atlantic Salmon Fisherman ? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Where are the Atlantic Salmon Fisherman ?


pmflyfisher
12-25-2001, 10:02 AM
I have been on the forumn for about 5 weeks now.

Just wondering where all the atlantic salmon fly fisherman are ?

Being a former east coast fly fisherman, now in the midwest it appears they have all converted to east coast salt water fishing, form the number of salt fly anglers on this board.

Also wonder where all the trout fisherman are ?

Demographics of the people on the forumn appear to be primarily east coast salt water and PNW steelhead.

Need a forumn demographics poll, will put that together over holiday.

Merry Christmas to all !!



;)

John Desjardins
12-26-2001, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by pmflyfisher
I have been on the forumn for about 5 weeks now.

Just wondering where all the atlantic salmon fly fisherman are ?

Also wonder where all the trout fisherman are ?



I'll give you my opinion on these two questions.

For many of us in the northeast US atlantic salmon are thought of as an exotic destination fish. To fish for them, even on public waters, takes a considerable outlay of time, travel and capital with a low likelyhood of success. This limits the number of people who chase them. The striped bass on the other hand is catchable along most of the coast allowing people to fit in a couple of hours here & there fishing, rather than thinking about fishing.

I'm one of those who is mostly a trout/warm water fisherman. One of the things I've noticed the last couple of years is that, aside from on a few tailwaters, I see very few fly fisherman on fresh water from mid May to late October. Granted the streams are too warm for trout C&R for a portion of that time, but the decrease in the number of freshwater fly fisherman is noticable durring that period. My opinion is that most fly fisherman are chasing the stripers.

Adrian
12-26-2001, 09:22 AM
That would be true in my case John. I used to go for Atlantics a couple of weeks a year back in th UK.

Vacation days being a lot less over here, I head out to warmer climes and chase stripers during the summer.

One New Years resolution is to join TU and support the restoration efforts on the Naugatuck river.

I don't think I'll go after the hatchery reared fish but, one day, someone will connect with a bright silver bar and bring the first sea winter Atlantic to hand.

Now that will get me out on the river!

wrke
12-26-2001, 10:02 AM
Here's one salmon fisherman (I just registered a few days ago). I fish them twice a year, once in late June on the Gaspé, once in late September or early October in northern New Brunswick. June affords me salmon on dead drift dries, fall gives me gorgeous maple colors. And although I live in the Finger Lakes region of New York, I consider the North Umpqua to be my home steelhead river. I've fished it for over 25 years. I participated in the steelhead project with the Wild Salmon Center in Kamchatka in 1996. My trout fishing happens here in NY, on a limited basis, and my wife and I have traveled to Montana every year for about 30 years. We also trout fish in Idaho. I do a little bonefishing and tarpon fishing every year. Absolutely love atlantic salmon, and would like to spend more time in the PNW with the west coast version (mykiss, not feral salmo).

bill

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 11:23 AM
Welcome Bill, I have only been on the board since mid November you will find mostly east coast saltwater and PNW steelheaders. I myself grew up in Northern NJ, learned to fly fish when 12 years old in the Catskill rivers, Beaverkill, Willowemuc, etc... About 42 years experience now. Then was transferred to mid west in 1979 from NYC to Chicago area. Been fishing Michigan trout, steelhead (mainly, and pacific salmon here in the great lakes since. One of my objectives is to get to the N. Umpqua looks beautiful and very challenging river, but have to get it on my fly fishing accomplishments list. When I left the east coast was just getting into Atlantic salmon fishing in Maine. Steelhead have replaced them though for now. There are some Atlantic salmon in the great lakes but very limited fly fishing on one river I will keep unnamed. Perhaps we should do an atlantic salmon fly swap. Many of the patterns can be used for steelhead. I tied up some atlantic salmon patterns recently for potential use on steelhead.

Well any way welcome to the board and perhaps we can get the Atlantic salmon threads rolling on this board.

Happy Holidays !!

:)

Willie Gunn
12-26-2001, 12:44 PM
Hi Pmflyfisher
I do not really count being in Scotland but I am only Atlantic Salmon. I do not fish for anything else bar seatrout in the summer. I hate this time of year as there is nothing happening and I have all these days off and no fishing to do. Back to work tommorrow. Then look forward to Janurary 15 when the season reopens.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 12:51 PM
Oh no Scotland !!

Been surfing some of the salmon web sites over there over the holiday. Looks very excellent the fishing. But is there much public water for the normal person to fish their. That appears to me the big draw back to fishing in Europe to us americans. Everything appears private or you must pay. I know there is some public water but not like here in the US. Got to get back to the UK on business this year and try and sneak in some salmon fishing. My problem our home office is in Zurich, Switzerland which is here I would probably end up and there is no atlantic salmon there, just some trout and grayling, which does not get me going to lug all of the tackle, etc.. Atlantic salmon though are a different story.

If we find some more salmon fisherman we should do a fly swap. I can do hairwings forget the classics I am not up to that level of patience or skill yet.

Which salmon rivers do you fish over there ?

Best Regards,

Hal Eckert

Chicago, IL

Willie Gunn
12-26-2001, 01:24 PM
Hi Hal
Yes you are right most of the water is privately owned. There are some association/public water but this is not free. I fish the Beauly,Brora, Connon, Deveron, Ness, and Spey. You will recognise the last two as everyone in the states seem to be well up on Grant the Wizzard of the Ness. The Deveron is a neighbour of the Spey 20 miles to the east. The Beauly Connon and Brora are all north of Inverness the first two are Hydro electric dammed rivers and are timeshare. The Brora is a classic highland river.

The Deveron enters the sea at my home town of Banff and I am lucky enough to rent a private stretch for the entire season. It is just a short length and unfortunately single bank. But it is very pleasent to be able to go up fishing anytime I feel like it.

Both the Ness and the Spey have excellent associatin water, which although not free are excellent value for money.

Malcolm

fredaevans
12-26-2001, 01:34 PM
Good morning Doc. Glad you brought up 'fee fishing.' Zero sense of scale but what's the range of cost to rent water on the rivers you mentioned?

Fred
ps: Has my 'mail' arrived yet?
fe

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 01:35 PM
Malcolm

The only one of those rivers I have heard of is the Spey, I wonder why ? What is the salmon season over there ?

By the way I do not know of any rivers in the US where you have to pay to fish the water. There are some private trout lakes and with maybe a few streams on them, but overall everything here is open to the public. Some rivers though the land is private and you must float it and stay in the water while fishing in these sections.

I would not mind paying for some of these quality waters if the number of fisherman could be mitigated though.

Hal

fisshman26
12-26-2001, 01:58 PM
I dont know if it still exists, but there used to be a pay section on the Salmon river in new york.

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 02:40 PM
Could be, heard there are a lot fish in the Salmon and just as many fisherman, big crowds since I think that is the closest salmon and steelhead stream to the east coast cities. My friends from NYC area have been up there. Not me though. Glad the Michigan rivers are out of easy driving distance from east coast cities. Mainly Detroit,, Chicago, some Ohio and Indiana fisherman also drive up for them. No pay fishing areas in Michigan on their riivers. I wonder if the PNW has any private pay areas on trout or steelhead, salmon rivers. What about BC ?

Willie Gunn
12-26-2001, 03:05 PM
Hal
Salmon seasons vary, the Ness Beauly open Jan 15 and close Oct 15. Spey starts Feb11 and closes Sept 30 the Deveron starts Feb11 but closes Oct31.

Prices vary depending on supply and demand the best weeks on the best beats can cost up to £1000/ week $1490 ? I think. There is plenty of good quality fishing at more reasonable prices. The advantage of paying is that there is no one else on your pool or pools. On the Spey you can be given two pools to fish in the morning then another two in the afternoon, and if it is single bank you have the place to yourself and the wildlife. Remember our island is just little with a high population. The Brora I pay £250 for my June week. Time share is something else, the Beauly charge up to £70,000 / rod/ week but it is for ever, and can be passed on to your heirs etc, but bear in mind that there is a mamagement fee over and above this. That is for a prime week in July where there are over 100 fish caught, between 12 anglers. Roughly a fish a day each. There always a lot of arguement for and against timeshare, I own about three weeks but none of them are prime weeks but hard working fishers can take fish in the cheap weeks :D

I pay £1000 / season to fish my little stretch on the Deveron mind you it is only 0.25 mile long.

Sorry Fred parcel has not arrived but the post here is awful at this time of the year. Looking forward to the post in the new year.

Malcolm

saltRon
12-26-2001, 03:27 PM
In the province of BC. we have a few so called destination lakes that are privately controlled ad do charge a fee for fishing rites and accomodation. The costs are not out of site considering the quality of fish to be taken and the suroundings. We do have a classification of waters primarly rivers that fall under a heading Classified waters Class 1 & 2 which will cost the resident angler an additional $10.00 annually and the non resident $ 10.00 or $20.00 a day to fish to preserve the unique opportunities these areas offer.

On the subject of Atlantic Salmon we have a few 100,000 escapes that we would love to have you come catch.

Happy Holidays saltRon

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 03:27 PM
Malcolm,

Thanks for the insights. They are some very long salmon seasons. Are there really fish for that long in the rivers which are worth pursuing. In Michigan the andramous fish season is 12 months, all year on most rivers, but I would say only 8 months September to April there are enough fish to pursue them with probability of success.

When you say single bank that means only one fisherman per pool ? Dual bank means two fisherman per pool I suppose that have reserved that section of river.

I guess they do not allow floating the rivers over there, like they do in the states. Here if you are floating in the water you can fish just about any river section. Landowners only own up to the high water mark of the river in many states. In some they own up to the water edge and the land you stand on in the river. On those you can fish from a canoe, but not standing in the river within their land boundaries.

To summarize in the states if you are floating the river and do not set foot on the land while within their property boundaries you are OK.

I wish some of my favorite river sections would go to pay to fish to keep the traffic down.

Best Regards,

Hal Eckert

Willie Gunn
12-26-2001, 04:09 PM
Hal

>When you say single bank that means only one fisherman per pool ? Dual bank means two fisherman per pool I suppose that have reserved that section of river. >

Yes and no, single bank in Scotland, means the river has two banks the right and the left, one person may own the left and another the right. You may be only allowed to fish the right hand side of the river and someone else will be fishing the left. Some estates have agreements so you are never fishing across from someone else. On the Spey it is so wide it does not really matter. Politeness suggests that you follow the people from the other bank, but I have had rude/ ignorant people push in infront of me. They tend not to do it again as being chased down a pool with a weighted tube landing close behind you does nothing for the day out, it is when casting a long line really works.:tsk_tsk:

Generally everything works out with a bit of common sense, the problems occur when to much pressure comes on the waters.

Salmon are caught on the Spey from Feb thru' to September. The numbers in Feb are fairly low but the prices reflect this. I enjoy a few Feb/ March days a there are always a lot of kelts on the go which keeps the interest up and you are always in with a chance of a fresh fish, and when you catch one they are a thing of beauty.

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 04:19 PM
Sounds lovely, I bet the atlantic salmon fly fisherman in Europe are more knowledgeable than our steelhead fly fisherman here. Due to the american open fishing combat fishing situations such as you described are common on the more famous rivers here.

To cold here in the midwest to really fish for steelhead until April, I have done it but beleive me fishing in thirty degree temperatures or lower is tough.

Cheers,

Hal

FrenchCreek
12-26-2001, 05:27 PM
Hey PM...
I am an Atlantic FFsher at heart and in "remission" for the past 20 years since I left the East (Montreal).
I have only made it out to the Miramichi 3 times in the last 10 years. I remember fondly the days when my Dad and me would get out to do our annual "Atlantic Trip", usually in mid Sept. which means I got off school for several days. I hope in the next years to come that I can combine an Atlantic trip with my annual Striper trip to the Cape.
Willlie,
I also plan to visit your bonnie land and visit my buddy Ally Gowans, in Pitlochry. He fishes the river Tummel and his home is in walking distance to the river. If I can get my wife to agree, to an early trip, sometime in Feb or March, rather than May ( she wants to go to the flower gardens.. UGH!) then I may see you out there.
As for Trout, come to my part of the world in Western Canada, (Alberta) and experience the wild Rainbows, Browns and Cutties we have out here. It's a trip you will never forget...
British Columbia is also an awesome place to be at and I spend many days hooking up with the Kamloops trout every year.

So there are Atlantic aficionados and Trout bums everywhere on
this Board.

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 05:38 PM
French Creek,

Another atlantic salmon fisherman I think we are up to 4-5 now. There must be more out there, we will see. Have read about the Miramachi and drove through that area on a camping trip during the early 80's. College camping trip did montreal, quebec, down through new brunswick and Maine, to Cape Cod, and then back to NYC. However we were chasing women and not fish on that trip. Never got back to fish it though. Bow River I also have read about. Went skiing to Banff and Lake Louise in 1976 beautiful country out there. Lots of places to visit that are represented by fly fisherman on this forumn. My frequent flyer tickets could be burned up quickly.

andre
12-26-2001, 05:42 PM
Hal,

I recall reading about certain rivers in Montana where if the land owner owns both banks they also "own" the stream bed and the water flowing over at any given moment. Anyway, I know they run fences acoss the river to prevent floating over their "land"

andre

striblue
12-26-2001, 05:49 PM
Hal, Those are good points about the Salmon River.. My last trip there a couple years ago reveal big crowds. What I remember most was when I went into Pulaski one afternoon and everyone, and I mean everyone, was dressed in their waders. Guys getting haircuts in Barber chairs, people leaving the super market with bags in their arms.. people walking out of banks, drug store, diners, you name it.. I thought I was in another country. The Banks of the river that went though town was packet as was the bridges. I kept my waders on for fear that if I took them off.. I might hear.."look... an outsider... seize him".

pmflyfisher
12-26-2001, 06:30 PM
Sounds like some of the Michigan river towns before they banned salmon snagging 3 years ago. The whole town's economy was based on selling services to the annual salmon snagging onslaught. That is why I stopped fishing during the fall salmon runs due to the volume and character of the snaggers. Did NY ban snagging yet, maybe Pulaski is changing for the better ?
Note although it was banned in Michigan the locals and some out of staters still think they have a right to do it. Weighted treble hooks with a few chicken feathers on it is not my idea of fly fishing, although some snaggers thought this was OK in a fly fishing only section. Many combat fishing situations were created due to the snagging. One local bragged to me about going down river to find a fresh pool of salmon and throwing dynamite in to stun and harvest them. He was serious. I let him have the pool I was fishing of course and moved on. :whoa: :whoa:

fredaevans
12-26-2001, 07:58 PM
Doc,
What Hal's referring to is Nav. vs. Non-nav. water. If a river is classified as a navigable river the adjacent landowner owns the property to the high water mark. The State or Fed's own the 'ground' under the stream/river. Once you've gained access to 'ground' below the high water mark you're on public property.

On non-nav. waters, the land owner owns the property to the "thread" (center line) of the stream. Here you (general public) can fish as long as you're in a boat ie: not standing/trespassing on his land 'under' the water.
:eyecrazy: And so go our Laws.

Fred

pmflyfisher
12-27-2001, 09:06 AM
Yes, Fred's banking and real estate knowledge is paying off. That is the way I understand it perhaps other states here in the US have other laws. But in general in the US if you are floating on the water you are legal. They cannot legally remove you from a navigable waterway. However you must physically launch from a public access point and then float into the river sections whose land is privately owned. The only exceptions are some small streams and lakes which are totally enclosed within private property and are not navigable or do not have a public entry point to launch from.

Now thinking about it I do not ever remember seeing drift boats or canoes used for fly fishing on rivers in Europe or UK, Scotland etc.. This must be the reason private ownership of the land and water which flows through it.

Note there are some prime fly fishing rivers in the US in which I think float fishing canoes, rafts, yaks, drift boats, are banned such as the Beaverkill, Willowemuc in the Catskill region of NY state where I started fly fishing. I wish they would implement this on my beloved Pere Marquette (PM). The drift boats started in the mid 1980s and sections of the river which required a long walk in now are accessible by the drift boats. There were days I would see 0 or 1 other fisherman. Not any more due to the drift boats and canoes. River is to small for them. They really should be banned from this river and other smaller ones. But the guides and local lodges would be up in arms. for sure.

As Saltron indicates in some western rivers the land owners run fences right across the river to prevent anglers floating through when they own both sides of the river and and the river bed. Not very friendly now is that. Probably have electronic detection systems also and then send the cowboys out after you. Could be ugly experience. Will let them have those waters. To many free american rivers to fish in one life time.

:tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk::tsk_tsk:

Willie Gunn
12-27-2001, 04:27 PM
Hi Chaps
The thought of drifting down the Spey or Tay fishing as you go would make the film Deliverance seem like a Sunday School Picnic.:hehe:

Both systems seem to have there good and bad points I think that in our little country with our high population free fishing for all just would not work.

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-27-2001, 04:48 PM
Malcolm,

Good points, plus the British Isles have more experience in torture techniques then us americans do. I would not want to try and float one of those european rivers.

Cheers,

Hal

juro
12-27-2001, 10:41 PM
As I recall in Norway, Iceland, and other northern atlantic salmon regions they use long dory-like boats to work salmon rivers. This tradition is also common on North American rivers like the Miramichi, etc. The drift boat is as much a part of the pacific northwest's river culture as the anglers that fish them, few concepts are in perfect harmony like a glacial river and pulling oars; perhaps the flats boat and the Florida Keys.

inland
12-28-2001, 02:12 AM
PM Flyfisher,

I would hardly be called a salmon fisherman, I don't think 10 days a year would qualify. Due to geographic location I am PMW steelheader first and foremost, apprentice salmon fishermen second. In spite of this, salmon fishing is a real treat, something I have permanently added to the yearly schedule!

Willie Gunn

I am very interested in making time to fish for springers on the Spey. A few years back I was on vacation during June and was able to fish for a few days on the Tay. Now I want to try for the best of the best!

Thanks,

William

pmflyfisher
12-28-2001, 08:38 AM
Well looks like there are some atlantic salmon fisherman or at least part time or those who want to be. Steelhead fly fishing is similar and many atlantic salmon flies can be used for steelhead and vice sa versa. I have been tying some atlantic salmon hair wings and speys this last week fishing which are starting to look pretty good.

[/COLOR] Perhaps we should consider an atlantic salmon fly swap ?

Those that are interested please respond to the new thread I started on this ?

I would love to see other custom or traditional patterns tied by forumn members. If I any one wants to do classic salmon patterns that is up to them but I am not to that level yet. Maybe another ten years.

Keep it to ten or so people max since I don't think I have the patience to do more than ten of them. Besides I have to start on my Michigan steelhead ties for the spring trip in March of course to the PM. Still looking for that 15 pounder + and March is when the big boys can be had, also they will have you very quickly, as has been the case in the past.

juro
12-28-2001, 08:43 AM
I have been an atlantic salmon fisherman at heart for 30 years, maybe more. As a kid in Montreal I talked my father into taking me down to the St. Lawrence river on the rumor of a salmon here or there, to no avail. Moving to the US east coast I dreamed of going to New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and read with great interest about the West Branch of the Penobscot in Maine (the last significant run of atlantics in America) before moving to Seattle, hence my own PNW experiences. Still I am an annual member of the Atlantic Salmon Federation and I am as driven to ensure the success of atlantic salmon recovery program as anyone.

I regularly visit the HQ in Concord NH to discuss the history and current status of the atlantic salmon recovery program in the once great Merrimac River, a river whose recovery is cut short by the Lawrence, Amoskeag and other dams . I have met and discussed the screening and diversion approaches being taken on the Connecticut River's salmon recovery program, an abysmal failure because no dams are being removed or effectively diverted along this mighty river.

Frankly I think part of the reason is the sad state of affairs that atlantic salmon fishing is in here in the US. Really sad. My zeal to learn more about the east coast salmon situation has been disheartening to say the least. We try to recover the runs without removing the reasons they have failed - the dams.

Moving north to Canada there is quite a celebration of AS fishing culture that is very close to it's European roots. We have some relationships with Canadian Maritimes guides and lodges that we should develop in 2002.

We are fortunate to have members like Willie Gunn who provides a direct contact and reference to the rivers where it all started. So much of what we do today has originated on the rivers of the British Isles.

Also, when we are steelheading I don't feel at all disconnected from AS fishing. These two universes are as parallel as any in our history. What was developed 400 years ago on the Spey helps us today on the Skykomish River in Washington; what is developed on Bainbridge Island across the sound from the Sky is throwing lines on the River Dee today in the 21st Century.

I enjoy tying the mixed wing classics in winter and these ages old techniques influence my modern steelhead flies. My spey flies are hardly different from the ones use on the namesake river ages ago.

I consider myself an atlantic salmon fisherman who has realized a lifelong desire to practice this passion on the availability of the pacific northwest species. In the process I have become a pacific northwest salmon / steelhead fisherman with a desire to fish the Spey someday, to visit the mecca as they say. And on the way I want to hit the Gaspe' and other Canadian maritime streams, to get myself ready for the ultimate AS experiences across the pond.

Willie Gunn
12-28-2001, 01:15 PM
Hi Chaps
I tend to take fishing on the Spey for granted and forget that the name means so much to you colonials.

For information on most beats try
http://website.lineone.net/~mike_janeleach/fishing_on_speyside.htm
and http://www.speycaster.net

They are both very informative web sites.

French Creek
Fish the Spey in May it is the best month, dawn and dusk classic floating line I only fish the early months as I can fish the best bits cheaply. ( Who said Scottish people were tight)

Cheers

Malcolm

pmflyfisher
12-28-2001, 01:52 PM
Oh yes the Spey is on the fly fishing life target list but it would have to be combined with those historical scottish golf links. Spey in the morning and night and scottish golf during the day. Wonder if my body and pocket book could handle that ? Just found a great web site for St Andrews doesn't look like the Spey is near there is it ?

Cheers,

Hal

FrenchCreek
12-28-2001, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by andre
Hal,

I recall reading about certain rivers in Montana where if the land owner owns both banks they also "own" the stream bed and the water flowing over at any given moment. Anyway, I know they run fences acoss the river to prevent floating over their "land"

andre

I fish Montana very frequently. there have been several problems over the last years, most notably a stretch of the Ruby river. The issue is that many "new" land owners, many rich,"out of staters" are buying land like crazy (like Ted & his Ex Nancy) and have started restricting or disallowing access to the rivers & streams. It is a problem that is starting to creep up to Alberta & BC as well. Many "new" land owners much prefer that fisher people do not get to the rivers. The key difference in Alberta & BC is that they DO NOT OWN the river, water of river bottom, even if they own both sides of the land. So as long as we stay at or below the "high water" mark, and access by boat or by wading to their property, we are OK as long as we stay along the water's edge.
I have not heard of or seen any fences across the rivers in Montana, but I have heard many a long litany of "choice words" hurled at me.
I am all for privacy and always respect the landowners wishes. I very seldom get refused when I ask permission to access fishable water, in Montana, Alberta & BC.

pmflyfisher
12-29-2001, 02:15 PM
French Creek,

The laws you describe are the same in Michigan the rivers where I primarily fish. As long as you float the water and do not walk past the friver's high water mark you are legal. Many of Michigan's best rivers go through national forests thank fully, which mitgates the problems. I have seen some michigan land owners put fences right down to the water's edge, these are the ones you do not want to mess with. To bad about the Montana situation although I understand the issues. Putting fences across the river though seems to be going way to far to me. What is the canoer or fisherman suppose to do when they run into this on a remote section of the river ? Stopping and walking out does not seem reasonable.

Hal