Double Fixed Loop Knot? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Double Fixed Loop Knot?


juro
07-08-2009, 08:35 AM
Over the 4th break I lost two tremendous fish because the 17# flouro premium brand $$ snapped in the single strand that goes into the eye of a fixed loop knot. These fish were wrist breaking thick shouldered yard long shallow water striped bass surging with a tide to hunt, both exploded backs out of the water as hard as any tarpon could and snapped the loop strand of the knots as they turned to kill their hapless prey. I wouldn't want to be a sand eel in that scenario I will say that.

Anyway I know I always bitch about how weak that single strand through the eye is and should know better than use it with anything less than 15# maxima, but I can't deny that the degree of freedom the loop offers is better than a fixed knot when the fish are finicky.

Double line knots like the (much superior) palomar knot are rigid but never fail at the knot.

So here's the challenge - is there a fixed loop knot with a double line or do I have to go to ring-eye hooks?

(Meantime I will not use a loop knot on less than 15# maxima or equivalent)

petevicar
07-08-2009, 10:15 AM
Hi Juro
What knot are you using.
I find your description a little hard to follow.

Pete

juro
07-08-2009, 12:45 PM
Hi Pete -

Standard fixed loop knot. Forget the knot part, the knot holds but the single strand of mono going through the eye snaps under high sudden short line stress. Not something you see with the typical schoolie but these fish are exploding like tarpon on the fly.

The eye is a tmc 811s, very fine quality ($$) hook - no imperfections on the finish.

The problem is the single strand and a serious shock from big fish that literally explode on the fly in very shallow water in close range. So either the line must be more stout or the knot has to be better with fine tippets (which are often necessary).

petevicar
07-08-2009, 03:39 PM
The weakest point in that set up is always the knot.
Maybe the hook is not smooth or the flouro roughened.
Try using normal mono and not flouro.
Flouro is not very abrasion resistant.

juro
07-08-2009, 10:14 PM
Normally I would acknowledge the advice. However not in this situation. Once again, the knots held fine but the strand exploded. The fish were large and practically broke my wrists when they hit.

I've done some digging and it seems there aren't any double-strand loop knots so I'll stick to 15# maxima despite gin-clear daytime flats conditions in less than 2 ft of water (or stick to the palomar knot).

Thanks for replying Pete, I know you have a ton of experience in worldwide fisheries to back your response.

petevicar
07-09-2009, 05:00 AM
Hi Juro
I have been experimenting with all sorts of knots using doubled tippet.
Basically it is possible to tie most knots like this. The problem that you get is that the double loop is, obviously, much thicker than a single and the knots are also very large.
Knots with heavier tippet are much smaller.
So rather than looking for a double loop just use heavier line. I believe it will work better.

Also I have in the past tested various lines and knots for their strength. I have never had a break in the loop. Always either in the knot itself or in the single strand tippet.
There are other forces at play like I suggested earlier.:devil:

Pete

juro
07-09-2009, 05:16 AM
Well Pete, when next you come out I shall make it my personal goal to put you into fish that pop your loop. Let's continue the discussion then.

Meanwhile how about details on the double tippet loop knots instead of the rhetoric? :lildevl:

wrke
07-09-2009, 06:40 AM
Juro

This is not about the knot, it's about the tippet.

Perhaps you should be comparing your tippets by their diameter, not their designated break strength (# test).

For instance, as labeled 15# Chameleon is designated as .015". I just mic'd it and it measures .017". (Maxima has always had this labeling problem).

I don't know what "17# premium brand" fluoro you're using, but Orvis Mirage 18.2# fluoro, for instance, is only .013" dia (accurately labeled dia, BTW) and Seaguar Grand Max 16.1# fluoro is only .011" in dia (also accurately labeled) . . . so you're comparing a much, much thinner fluoro to a much thicker mono.

Why not use a comparable dia fluoro? For instance .017" Mirage is rated at 25# instead of 15# for Maxima's .017" product (labeled as .015").

And if you want to use mono instead of fluoro, Stroft ABR (their ABrasion Resistant product) that measures .016" dia is 31# and their .0175" tippet is 39#!

Don't believe the labels . . . believe what you can measure . . . diameter . . . and then compare products.

juro
07-09-2009, 07:11 AM
Hey check out the BIRMINGHAM BOWLINE

http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_TripleLoops.htm (non-related link)

I just tied one and it's a tough, compact double loop that is easily adjustable, does not have the clinch issues of the common knot and will allow even very fine diameter tippets to be tied with a double loop.

Per the comments -

I agree that material, diameter, hook eye, etc all play a role in the snapping of the loop. Most often the knot is the issue. While a single loop of mono is generally acceptable all things in place, under extreme stress is a weak link. Personally, I like to engage in extreme stress on my line while fishing hehe

Pete, Bill, et. al - all modesty aside, I trust my research, observations and refinement skills. Even more than yours :lildevl:

That's not a slam, that's just human nature - on the believability scale confidence increases from "they claim" to "we believe" to "I know". You believe your views more than mine of course I expect/respect that.

But that's all beside the point - if you agree that there is a need for a good double loop knot, then we're on to finding that knot in this thread. If not, well then you don't have a problem to solve like I do.

I'll be fishing the Birmingham Bowline this weekend and will report my findings. Hopefully I will get the same reaction from the same presentation from the same surge of big fish so it will be a proper test. I may have to wait until the right tides come around again, another way to test it is to purposely go to a finer tippet and hook fish in the 'usual' way.

petevicar
07-09-2009, 08:16 AM
I wish you luck in your research but I still think you are looking for the wrong thing.

Anyway.
I hope the big bulk of knot that you use doesn't stop the fish from taking.

juro
07-09-2009, 09:28 AM
I seriously doubt bulk will be any more of a factor than the single-strand clinch version, I guess we'll have to see. I dont have mono at my desk :) but it seems about as big as a double perfection loop knot on a piece of twine especially if it increases the strength of knots used in finer flouros while keeping the degree of freedom the loop affords (which I am converted to from first hand experience watching fish react on the flats).

I guess I am a believer that conventional wisdom is often void of innovation. Similar experimentation recently led to a better approach for the "slim beauty" which got the nod from Basser, who had more experience in his little finger than I have in my whole arm.

http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=22699&highlight=anorexic

Anyway I just got a call from a friend fishing now who is going to give it a shot with fine tippet today and let me know what he thinks - next best thing to being there. Can't wait for the weekend!

jimS
07-09-2009, 12:32 PM
What's wrong with a Kreh loop knot doubled? Or a double perfection loop? I have over the years had a single loop knot part in the loop, not the knot. I attributed it to abrasion or a very quick surge from the fish. I like the palomar, but now use exclusively the kreh loop knot. Doubling it in 20lb tippet with three turns is not bulky. The only downside is that it uses more tippet material.

juro
07-09-2009, 01:40 PM
I'm getting de ja vu - I think you advised likewise before, apologies if I forgot. The Lefty knot is what I have been calling the fixed loop knot, but how do I double the strand?

thanks in advance

Adrian
07-09-2009, 01:56 PM
I was thinking about a bimini to give you a double line for the loop but the Birmingham Bowline looks easier to tie on the water and less bulky.

If it tests at 90%+ on fine tippets (say 12lb+ doubles) its probably worth a shot.

*update* Looks like its getting a "Live Fire Trial" as we speak !!! :lildevl:

Inquiring minds awaiting results :smokin:

And another edit: To Juro's point, I believe that, all things being equal, the stress on a free swinging loop suddenly coming under rapid high tension (as in "break your wrist on the strike" :D ) at a very specific point on the tippet would be higher (more focused) than that on a snug knot that distributes the stress a little more.

Just a theory and and subject to confirmation in controled lab conditions. :smokin:

jimS
07-09-2009, 04:58 PM
Juro, double the tippet, overhand loop with the doubled tippet, thread the doubled line thru the eye and the overhand. Three turns and then back thru the overhand. Tighten overhand to eye, and pull tag after saliva.

juro
07-10-2009, 01:24 AM
Thanks Jim. I'm going to try both this weekend and I hope I can recreate the 'load test'.