Green Drake decline in Ontario - golf courses? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Green Drake decline in Ontario - golf courses?


chromedome
08-21-2008, 11:37 PM
Years ago I went from my home in the states to fish for trout in rivers within a few hours of Toronto, Ontario . Mainly I fished green drake (GD) hatches of considerable abundance that suddenly began declining in the 1990's. At this time, sizable hatches, if present, are only found in the upper reaches or tributaries of these rivers. I understand that golf courses are located just upstream from the point on three major rivers where the GD begins to sharply decline downstream from the golf courses. This would imply that harmful chemicals, tied in with the golf courses, are getting into the rivers. One would think this is being looked at, but from what I understand, even conservation and fly fishing groups concerned about the problem, are not giving the golf course possibility much attention. And even seemingly harmless chemicals should be investigated since the extreme sensitivity of the GD to even very low levels of pollution is well known.

striblue
08-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Have you checked with the Fishing conservation groups if they have given the golf course locations consideration? I would think, knowing the levels of examination that those groups do, as well as others , that the courses are not the problem.

chromedome
08-22-2008, 10:45 PM
Have you checked with the Fishing conservation groups if they have given the golf course locations consideration? I would think, knowing the levels of examination that those groups do, as well as others , that the courses are not the problem.

Let me try to make it clearer. Some of the info I have presented, I did not get first hand. But it did come from an extremely reliable source. In Ontario there is a large, well organized group of environmentally minded fly fishers (who will remain nameless) that are usually very active in combating threats to the rivers and streams in the province. According to my reliable source, however, they have done little or nothing to investigate the golf courses as a possible source of the contamination of the rivers. I thought I made that clear in my post. The source also says that these courses use a variety of chemicals. Some of these fall into the category of being herbicides, insecticides, and fertilizers. No doubt other potentially harmful chemicals are used as well. As a chemist whose career dealt with development of chemical products, I can assure you that to take on the level of examination that would be needed to screen all the golf course chemicals for lethal effect on the green drake would be very difficult. Given the extreme sensitivity of the GD to pollution, it would probably be impossible without a carefully planned screening program involving testing on the actual live insect. And I would imagine it would be very expensive to set up an artificial GD habitat to do this testing, and likely difficult to get any gov't agency to do it. But for sure, the "levels of examination that those groups do, as well as others", as you put it, wouldn't even be close to what is necessary to find out what chemical (s) is killing these valuable insects and eliminating the use of these chemicals.

striblue
08-22-2008, 11:15 PM
Well... we are testy aren't we.;)

chromedome
08-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Well... we are testy aren't we.;)

Yes I get easily irritated and annoyed when it appears someone is coming in with an opposing view that suggests they didn't take the time to thoroughly read the view they are opposing. It also appears you didn't thoroughly think through this issue enough to come up with a responsible response. From your non-scientific background it is doubtful that you have the qualifications to make the outlandish statements you did. Maybe you're a golfer with an agenda related to that.

Frankly, I thought I handled you quite gently given what my initial response to you probably should have been. Issues such as the demise of the Green Drake are important. If you really have little to contribute to solve the problems then perhaps you should wait until a topic arises that fits your level and area of expertise. And this is especially true when you choose to offer an uninformed opposing opinion.

chromedome
08-23-2008, 01:05 AM
Well... we are testy aren't we.;)

Aha --- Yes I see it all now. A search reveals that from some posts you made elsewhere on this forum its obvious YOU ARE AN AVID GOLFER!! So that explains your position! You certainly wouldn't want anyone investigating all those chemicals that make those golf courses look so lush, nor any of the other chemicals that provide some function to enhance the golfing experience. It probably gives a clue as to why there is reluctance to check the Ontario golf courses. Maybe too many key fly fishers are also into golfing as you are. And I can just see where all this is leading.

striblue
08-23-2008, 08:17 AM
Your rambling.....:roll: Calm down..no need to get personal. You ask for an opinion and then when you get one you don't like you explode....why ask then? You offer a "reliable sourse'...no first hand knowledge..just blame and unsupported wild accusations.....to that location. I ask a reasonable question since I do not know... and then you don't have the answer either. No real evidence, no proof...no "anything" specific to the location... then you blast me...Don't ask opinions of others if you just want to be coddled. I have said all I am going to say about this and will not engage further. You are rude and condescending, and probably a misanthrope, and can only get away with this stuff hiding behind the internet.

chromedome
08-23-2008, 07:29 PM
Your rambling.....:roll: Calm down..no need to get personal. You ask for an opinion and then when you get one you don't like you explode....why ask then? You offer a "relaiable sourse'...no first hand knowledge..just blame and unsupported wild accusations.....to that location. I ask a reasonable question since I do not know... and then you don't have the answer either. No real evidence, no proof...no "anything" specific to the location... then you blast me...Don't ask opinions of others if you just want to be coddled. I have said all I am going to say about this and will not engage further. You are rude and condecsending, and probably a misanthrope, and can only get away with this stuff hiding behind the internet.

Your personal attacks on me amount to quite a poor attempt on your part to wiggle your way out of this.

As I'm sure you are well aware:

1. I am not rambling.
2. There is no need to calm down since I'm perfectly calm.
3. Any statements I made that you claim as getting personal were made to reveal a tie-in between your misinformed, biased opinion and your hidden, golf related agenda.
4. The first explosion was you accusing me of being testy.

You've probably made a career out of finding ways to belittle people.

I never asked for an opinion and certainly not from someone of your caliber. My, oh my, you really are fond of making things up.

You say "You offer a "relaiable sourse' ". How could anybody expect credibility from someone who spells so poorly?? You get more laughable with each passing word you write.

You hit another low by saying "just blame and unsupported wild accusations" when there's no reference to me blaming or throwing wild accusations at anything.

Your so-called reasonable question was answered in my original post. How many times do I need to tell you that??? Locations and names of organizations do not need to be divulged here. In fact, to divulge them could cause other problems.

You say "You are rude and condecsending". (Again, learn to spell.) But if that is true, maybe it was because I could see in an instant that you had no business responding to my post in the way that you did. I might add that it would be easy to become a misanthrope if I came in contact with people like you all the time.

In conclusion, let me say this. Much of this rather disagreeable discourse started because it was stated by Striblue that he felt that had the Fishing conservation groups with their level of examination been involved, it would have likely cleared the golf courses of some role in the demise of the green drake. I don't think Mr. Striblue, in his lengthly (and I might add impressive) profile, has little background into what goes into the development of chemicals that might be used on a golf course. In contrast, I have over 30 years experience in the development of chemicals for various applied uses. While I have none specifically for golf courses, I would be greatly surprised to learn that scientific tests had been done anywhere to clear any chemical for use in applications where toxicity on the green drake could be a problem. Such testing would pose the difficult and expensive problem of setting up laboratory scale habitat for this insect, although I'm sure it could be done.

I also want to say that I am not proposing that courses located in green drake habitat be prevented from using chemicals. But there is a strong need to thoroughly and scientifically evaluate the effect of chemicals on this insect, and come up with ways to stop, or at least minimize, the damage resulting from their use.

Some may wonder, "Why all this fuss over a little insect?". Well ... suppose you had been frequently fishing a river that you just knew had to contain a good population of large trout, but had limited success in hooking any. Then comes the time of the year when the green drake comes on the water and there seems to be big fish everywhere taking flies off the surface. You would never have to ask that question again.

striblue
08-24-2008, 09:30 AM
Wow... ouch! ..That was really rude.....Ok...Now you have really done it...I am now forced to take you off my Xmass card list.:chuckle: No need to keep rambling on, get a grip, try to control yourself, be kind, temperate and not testy. I am sure you can sign on to some good anger management programs in your area. If my question was not up to your exacting elitist standards...then it was indeed my mistake to even ask. Sorry I took your valuable retired time. I now know better.;) :razz: