Bonaventure and new reg's [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Bonaventure and new reg's


Salar-1
04-01-2008, 03:43 PM
The ZEC Members of the Bonaventure River voted yesterday for C%R throughout the season !!IMHO The public sectors on the Bonnie can,on a good run, be as good as drawn waters on other rivers. And some of the drawn pools are just heaven !
Cheers

Fontinalis
04-03-2008, 09:27 AM
That is great news! I can only hope that more rivers in the peninsula follow suit.

Venture
04-03-2008, 10:41 AM
Hmmmm.... Wonder how this will effect the Matane, because this ruling will effect the Matane in one form or another. The lack of fish in the Bonnie last year caused much added pressure on the Matane. Wonder if this ruling will do the same, unless the Matane changes over to C+R......which may not be likely.

jcc_00
04-06-2008, 02:57 PM
Anyone have any news on what the Gaspe Winter was like, snow melt, temps, ice out etc. Still early but looking for initial indications on how the Spring might shape up.

Rivers up North last year (Labrador) had snow and ice well into May. It was the heaviest snow and ice in years........

Salar-1
04-06-2008, 08:02 PM
9 ft of snow in town of Gaspe as of 10 days ago !!! The early June trip's 'll be interesting :-O
Cheers
Brian

jcc_00
04-06-2008, 08:30 PM
hmmm....wonder if the winter was worse than last year

billg
04-07-2008, 07:46 AM
Howie:

The Matane had a solid run of salmon last year; the best on the Peninsula in terms of spawning quota and in comparison with recent years. That is a big part of the reason there were as many anglers on the Matane as there was.

My sense is that you are correct relative to additional pressure this season due to the Bonaventure going C&R. There will certainly be less pressure on that river as a result of C&R (and partly because the run and fishing were down in '07). Rivers such as the Matane and York will see additional pressure (we have seen this on the York in the past when runs on other rivers had been poor) as will the Matapedia.

I am glad to see that the Bonaventure enacted these regs; late is alawys better than never.

I doubt that the Matane will go C&R. The river has large runs of salmon and there is no pressure at this point for such a move.

I would have thought that with the runs being down on many Gaspe rivers there would have been more momentum to do something relative to changing the number of tags or perhaps reviewing the methodology applied to determining optimal spawning runs. It is disappointing to see that neither happened.

The Gaspe recevied huge rains last fall (as has been reported and discussed) and there were major floods everywhere. These floods occurred DURING & AFTER spawning and likely had devastating impacts on the spawn. In addition to siltation, the moving around of large boulders scouring spawning areas and redds was not a positive thing for the eggs. We will have to wait and see the outcome as fry are born, etc but if I had to bet one way ot another at this juncture I would say that runs will suffer in a few years when this age cycle is due to return. All the more reason for C&R; there are MANY factors that impact salmon that are beyond our control and the only thing we have any control over is whether or not salmon are released after being caught.

Bill Greiner

billg
04-07-2008, 07:46 AM
Howie:

The Matane had a solid run of salmon last year; the best on the Peninsula in terms of spawning quota and in comparison with recent years. That is a big part of the reason there were as many anglers on the Matane as there was.

My sense is that you are correct relative to additional pressure this season due to the Bonaventure going C&R. There will certainly be less pressure on that river as a result of C&R (and partly because the run and fishing were down in '07). Rivers such as the Matane and York will see additional pressure (we have seen this on the York in the past when runs on other rivers had been poor) as will the Matapedia.

I am glad to see that the Bonaventure enacted these regs; late is alawys better than never.

I doubt that the Matane will go C&R. The river has large runs of salmon and there is no pressure at this point for such a move.

I would have thought that with the runs being down on many Gaspe rivers there would have been more momentum to do something relative to changing the number of tags or perhaps reviewing the methodology applied to determining optimal spawning runs. It is disappointing to see that neither happened.

The Gaspe recevied huge rains last fall (as has been reported and discussed) and there were major floods everywhere. These floods occurred DURING & AFTER spawning and likely had devastating impacts on the spawn. In addition to siltation, the moving around of large boulders scouring spawning areas and redds was not a positive thing for the eggs. We will have to wait and see the outcome as fry are born, etc but if I had to bet one way ot another at this juncture I would say that runs will suffer in a few years when this age cycle is due to return. All the more reason for C&R; there are MANY factors that impact salmon that are beyond our control and the only thing we have any control over is whether or not salmon are released after being caught.

Bill Greiner

Salar-1
04-07-2008, 09:54 AM
Howie
The Bonnie C&R vote is" too late" to be implemented for this year. UNLESS we all get together and send the MRNF messages that we support the ZEC in this mandate. Fishing pressure on the Matane goes up and down with the amount of fish in the river AND water levels . With the Bonnie going C&R for '09 IMHO there'll be an INCREASE in angler activity ,especially from non res.'s .I'll predict Camp Bonnie will be booked for next yr. VERY fast !
Cheers

jcc_00
04-07-2008, 07:17 PM
do either of you have URLs that carry things like stats on number of fish estimates for Matane etc?

billg
04-07-2008, 10:47 PM
http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/publications/faune/bilan-saumon-2006.pdf

This is thru 2006; hope it helps.

Bill Greiner

Venture
04-08-2008, 06:59 PM
Just heard from my neighbor in St Rene that this winter was one of the worst in a long time as it relates to snow fall. He told me that on March 22 they had one storm that dumped over three feet of snow on the existing snow pack.

He claimed that the roof on my chalet had an accumulated 7 feet of snow that had to be removed. So it looks like we are going to have some water in the rivers this June and perhaps well into July. Just thought I would pass this on.

Salar-1
04-08-2008, 07:27 PM
Here's an excellent URL to a site provided by the very enthusiastic Laval Rioux
http://pages.globetrotter.net/annstjean/laval/stats.php
Just hit the 'Reculer" button and you can scroll back through the yrs ad nausium
MORE than enough info to keep ya happy for a few hrs. :-)
Montaison =run

Cheers

Salar36
04-09-2008, 05:24 AM
Howie
The Bonnie C&R vote is" too late" to be implemented for this year. UNLESS we all get together and send the MRNF messages that we support the ZEC in this mandate. Fishing pressure on the Matane goes up and down with the amount of fish in the river AND water levels . With the Bonnie going C&R for '09 IMHO there'll be an INCREASE in angler activity ,especially from non res.'s .I'll predict Camp Bonnie will be booked for next yr. VERY fast !
Cheers

Regarding the C & R on the Bonnie, I would suggest to follow the situation, there is absolutely no reason to push it to 2009. MRNF can apply it anytime with 48 hre advice.

With the Bonnie C & R at least in June, and probably all season long, the pressure will sure be higher on the Matane, but Matapedia will take the big part, prime time being similar with the Bonnie. On the Matane, it is later.

It might be surprise Bill, but I have recommended sooner this winter to apply C & R everywhere, at least until July 15th, and review at this moment. Accordingly with the very low count of grilses last year, the only decent run we can expect this year is the 3 years MSW (so soon in the season). With the current level of snow, we can expect good water condition and probably a very bad surprise by the end of July (mid season counts). But it seems that was not very popular. Anyway, if the season is so bad like I expect (it is not utopic to expect a bad year with grilses again, since the water temp. reported by Fred Worisky last summer were very very cold near Labrador coast - minus 1,8 celsius- , with probably negative effect on parr survival rate during their trip), it will probably be the last year we have this debate.

billg
04-09-2008, 08:13 AM
Pierre:

I think that what you have suggested -- C&R thru July 15) is a GREAT idea; hats off to you. While I personally feel C&R is best practice, I have no problem IF salmon runs are above minimum levels (this can only be calculated by doing a count FIRST and then allowing salmon to be taken). The big problem that I have had with the management system is that on most rivers counts are done midway thru the season but salmon have been killed without really knowing what the runs are like.

If you are intimating that this will become the norm (C&R until a midseason count is done) then that is a HUGE step that will benefit the resource in a big way.

While folks are contemplating conservation measures I would like to throw one more thought out for consideration and may shock you Pierre. I have always supported the idea of fishing directly below barriers (25 meters downstream as stipulated in the regulations). A friend of mine who is a journalist and is working on a piece regarding conservation measures, etc has raised the issue with me regarding not only whether it is "ethical" to do so but whether there are any affects on the salmon and/or the spawning productivty of salmon that are forced to pool up behind a fence for up to 4 months. As you know I have done more than my share of fishing in these gate pools/sectors and personally do not have an issue with it but he does raise questions which probably ought to be debated and discussed by those who would be able to make such a determination.

You are also right that MRNF can make the decision on the Bonnie if they choose; I believe it was a couple of years ago that the Govt chose to ignore the decision of the members of the Grand Cas to go C&R by essentially stating that it is ultimately the call of the MRNF. I would hope that they would consider this.

Lastly, I feel that runs this year will be poor for the reasons you have said. When we look at what happened last year (smaller runs on many rivers on the Gaspe AND the floods which had to have had negative impacts on the spawn) 5 years from now is not a promising situation either. Perhaps we are simply in a period/cycle that will be poor in terms of salmon runs compared with the good runs we have early in this decade. Aside from buying out commercial nets, the only impact we can have is to utilize C&R. While I would love to see it everywhere all the time, a GREAT compromise would be just as Pierre as suggested.

Bill Greiner

Venture
04-09-2008, 10:12 AM
I am glad to see that we are once more united in our thoughts as to what each of us can do to help our fishery. Things that are out of our control such as water temps and floods are something that will always cause "up" and "down" natural cycles.
But it is up to each of us to do our part in helping our dwindling resource.

Question: Why is the ZEC controlling the Bonaventure while nothing is done to push C+R on the Matane. Personally, I would like nothing more than to see the controlers of the Matane to do the same. To kill 1/3 of the spawning fish annually MUST tremendously affect our returns in a negative way.

I confess that I know little about the governing and the governors (Fish and Game) of the Matane even though I now consider it my river. I say this because I look to the veterans on this forum to inform me and others as to how we can individually become more active in promoting C+R on the Matane. Even though I have heard many debates about it at the river's edge, it seems more than logical that if we had that addition 1/3 of fish still alive to spawn each season, we would have more fish coming back to the river. I also feel that if we had C+R, we would have much less fishing pressure as many fisherman are their to kill salmon. It would also be much easier for the authorities to control poaching, as many poachers are still "fishing" on the river. As soon as they are alone at a pool, they switch to a weighted fly and take a fish.....usually a big spawner at that.

Hopefully with some more knowledge I can contribute to making the Matane a superb C+R fishery.....

Salar36
04-09-2008, 11:12 AM
Pierre:
I have always supported the idea of fishing directly below barriers (25 meters downstream as stipulated in the regulations). A friend of mine who is a journalist and is working on a piece regarding conservation measures, etc has raised the issue with me regarding not only whether it is "ethical" to do so but whether there are any affects on the salmon and/or the spawning productivty of salmon that are forced to pool up behind a fence for up to 4 months. As you know I have done more than my share of fishing in these gate pools/sectors and personally do not have an issue with it but he does raise questions which probably ought to be debated and discussed by those who would be able to make such a determination.



Bill,

The only place where fishing down a gate is allowed is in the Gaspe area (Dartmouth, York, St-Jean, Grande Riviere and Pabos). If you look at Matapedia-Patapedia-Causapscal, it is under other responsibility at the MRNF -Rimouski office) , and it has never been allowed to open these gate pools for any consideration. Two areas, two visions...Usualy, a gate is installed up a holding pool for conservation purposes -easier to watch-. To allow fishing there could change the reel primary objective...human nature being what it is... We have already make pressure to allow fishing (C & R) at the fork pool on the Patapedia -without this pool, sector 3 can be very poor-, but years after, I am happy that is has never been approved...

billg
04-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Howie:

You need to start by talking to the folks who manage the Matane; each river is managed by its own board. The runs on the Matane have been arguably the most consistent on the peninsula and my sense (I do not know any of the local players) is that the regs specific to the Matane will likely remain unchanged as long as the runs continue as they have. It would be great to see all rivers adopt the regs that Pierre suggests; that is the most proactive way to manage the resource. It is reactivity that always seems to be problematic in that it is generally too late.

There used to be incubators on the Matane which certainly would have had a positive impact on that river's returns but I do not know if they are still in use. Does anyone know this?

Pierre:

I agree with what you are suggesting about potential impacts about fishing immediately downstream from a gate (the Madeline River also used to allow it I do not know if they still do). That is why it might make sense to see what impacts this activity has on the fish that are held back in these pools all summer long.

I was glad to see that the gate pool on the Dartmouth finally went to C&R for 2008. That is something that I pushed for in 2000 and in 2005 there were some local fishermen who joined in my call to get this done. It was a shame to see large salmon killed below a fence (for that matter, if one is going to allow fishing below a barrier it ought to be barbless hooks and TOTAL C&R-- trout, grilse, and salmon in my opinion).

In discussing the concept of fishing below a gate with my friend he said that if a group like PETA ever found our that you could fish below a steel fence for salmon (whether or not you killed them) would be great fodder for their crusade against fishing. Let's not go there.

Bill Greiner

Salar36
04-09-2008, 01:55 PM
Question: Why is the ZEC controlling the Bonaventure while nothing is done to push C+R on the Matane. Personally, I would like nothing more than to see the controlers of the Matane to do the same. To kill 1/3 of the spawning fish annually MUST tremendously affect our returns in a negative way.


Howie, I don't want to go back in the debate about Riker curves , but Matane is the river who has applied the most strictly the Riker curves by the book, and has the most regular run of all the provinces for long time...It is probably also related to the area, since the only rivers having known improvement or at least stability last year were the neighbours of Matane (Mitis and Rimouski). It is not in the plan of MRNF or Sogerm to apply C & R except if the management level is not reached. So unfortunately, you will see lot of people on the river this summer again. Last year, even if they caught lot of fish, their spawning level was the best of the Peninsula, much over than the management target. Regarding poaching (most using sinking line), it is a reel pain there, and Sogerm still wait a new regulation who would allow to ban sinking line on the river. But during the last 2 years, they have changed how they handle the problem, the "bad guys" are well known and don't have margin..as soon they take a daily pass, they are reported as being on the river and have 2 pairs of eyes on them most of the time.


Bill:
Regarding incubators, it is not used anymore, since at least 6 or 7 years. It basically did not help the river, and in fact had probably a negative impact. They were taking spawners from the main river , and put the eggs in incubators in the Petite Matane. So eggs were not "new eggs" (from reconditioned spawners)

Also:
1) Incubators were let to the nature all winter long, with some bad surprise (lost of most of the egg some times)
2) When thing were going well, the fact the had 100 000 eggs in very small area created very high density of young salmons, with a net result lower than regular thing in nature (predator).

It has been prooved (on the Pabos in fact) that the most effective way to use incubators was in a controled area (treat any problem when it happen) and manual dispersion at a level of 60 young salmons per 100 square meters higher survival rate, up to 15% compared to 2-2.5 % in regular natural conditions). Rimouski did the same during 6 or 7 years; 95 salmons in 1995, more than 500 last year!!!

billg
04-09-2008, 02:42 PM
Pierre:

I have heard mixed things about incubators. They also had a very positive role in helping the St. Jean recover in the 90's. Unfortunately they were left in some tribs and the gravel shifting over a couple of years did a number on them when they were retrieved (not pointing any fingers here).

They also did a great job in Pabos as you mention and I had numerous discussions last year with Rene Giroux (Pabos) and Leo (Grande River) about incubators and I offered to buy additonal incubators and pay 50% of the labor costs (about $5,000 per river) so that all 4 of these rivers could benefit from proper use of incubators.

I have also heard that the Grand Cas has used incubators (perhaps they still do). Looking at return numbers I am not sure that the desired effects have occured but I may be wrong.

Bill Greiner

Salar36
04-09-2008, 02:48 PM
They also did a great job in Pabos as you mention and I had numerous discussions last year with Rene Giroux (Pabos) and Leo (Grande River) about incubators and I offered to buy additonal incubators and pay 50% of the labor costs (about $5,000 per river) so that all 4 of these rivers could benefit from proper use of incubators.

I have also heard that the Grand Cas has used incubators (perhaps they still do). Looking at return numbers I am not sure that the desired effects have occured but I may be wrong.


Pabos handle it properly, in fact, they wrote the book.

Grand Cas is using eggs from hen taken from the river, and control everything during winter. They distribute alevin in part of the river or tributaries which are not naturaly colonised. This is usualy considered like more efficient than nature.

Salar-1
04-09-2008, 07:21 PM
The Tadoussac hatchery takes fish from the Escoumins and then re-intoduces the offspring back into the river( and others) the following (?) year. Although the run on this river is small(-300) it's judged to be working . I fish a large lake north of Mtl. that profited from Tadoussac parr back in the 60's and the fishing continuesto be VERY good.
Cheers

Venture
04-11-2008, 09:39 AM
Pierre,

Speaking of bad guys on the river, there is a guy (I'm sure you know who I'm talking about), who still is allowed to purchase a daily permit even though he was caught netting a pool. He was then convicted and fined $65,000.00. But of coarse he is as poor as a chipmunk and never paid one cent of this fine. But they allow him to plunk down $35.00 per day to purchase a fishing permit. Luke, the head warden on the Matane cannot understand why this is allowed. Luke also has a restraining order against him because of threats he made on Luke's life and family.

This guy is seen quite often at the Metropole pool. Everyone seems to know his game. He now fishes dry fly for everyone to see. But when he is alone, he switches to an old floating fly line that sinks......using quite a big double. I've seen his technique on odd hours at Cap Sieze. Yes, the wardens follow this guy around knowing what he is up to BUT why should the government continue to issue him a permit when he still owes $65,000 in unpaid fines for poaching. This is a big mystery to me. He should be banned from being anywhere near the river......

Fontinalis
04-11-2008, 01:44 PM
I fish a large lake north of Mtl. that profited from Tadoussac parr back in the 60's and the fishing continuesto be VERY good.
Cheers

Salar-1, I'm curious about this. Are you stating that they took sea-run fish and essentially turned them into land-locked stock (ouananiche) that have become self sustaining?

I love ouananiche, and although I no longer live in Montreal, I still return to Quebec to fish for them in the Baleine river about 100 miles north of Schefferville every summer.

Salar36
04-12-2008, 06:12 PM
Pierre,

Speaking of bad guys on the river, there is a guy (I'm sure you know who I'm talking about), who still is allowed to purchase a daily permit even though he was caught netting a pool. He was then convicted and fined $65,000.00. But of coarse he is as poor as a chipmunk and never paid one cent of this fine. But they allow him to plunk down $35.00 per day to purchase a fishing permit. Luke, the head warden on the Matane cannot understand why this is allowed. Luke also has a restraining order against him because of threats he made on Luke's life and family.

This guy is seen quite often at the Metropole pool. Everyone seems to know his game. He now fishes dry fly for everyone to see. But when he is alone, he switches to an old floating fly line that sinks......using quite a big double. I've seen his technique on odd hours at Cap Sieze. Yes, the wardens follow this guy around knowing what he is up to BUT why should the government continue to issue him a permit when he still owes $65,000 in unpaid fines for poaching. This is a big mystery to me. He should be banned from being anywhere near the river......


Howard

It is the bad side of "justice" in Quebec. Have a poacher arrested is very long and hard, but when they finaly have them, they come back since they are never ban of the river, and most of them never pay since they have nothing to pay. In fact, the last time I have seen somebody banned of a river for poaching, it was the brother of the guy you talk about, he was banned of the Matane for a year, but spent a part of the summer on the Matapedia. Only part of the summer, since the "young boys" of the Matapedia showed him "politely" the exit and he curiously never came back...

Venture
04-13-2008, 11:59 AM
Pierre,

I find it hard to accept that the ZECs and Government spend so much money on monitoring and trying fix some of the Very Difficult Issues, but have a hard time fixing something so easy.

If a person is convicted in a court of law for intentionally poaching, the same jurisdiction could easily ban the guilty party from at least obtaining a permit for a period of time equal to that of his offense. It would cost very little to do that and make it easier in the future for the wardens to budget their time and their expenses going forward.

Luke (the head warden on the Matane) cannot understand himself why this is not the case. And I wonder why issues like this one are not even spoken about when it comes to discussing all the problems. To me, this is a "Low Hanging Fruit" which should be the first picked.

Salar36
04-13-2008, 12:28 PM
Howard,

I fully agree with you. In fact, we are so many who have requested for long time a "wildlife court". But it seems that wildlife is still perceived like marginal activity by our politicians. Hopefully, the situations like the case lived in Matane are marginal, this is probably the top of the list, at least in Lower St-Lawrence / Gaspesia. The laxism we see is the direct cause of incidents like happened in the Matapedia valley where people decided to make justice themselves. Hopefully, it did not cause any injury to anybody, but it could have been worst, according with the kind of guys we talk about...