Stripping Basket when wading for Bonefishing [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Stripping Basket when wading for Bonefishing


Swalt
08-15-2007, 08:40 AM
Do you use a strippng basket when wading for bonefish? I am interested in knowing why or why not and which one you may use.

I have never used one but there have been times when I wished I was. Line around mangrove shoots, around legs etc etc. Even given that, the designs, I have seen, looked like they would get in the way more than they would help.

I am thinking of designing one that would be packable and sit low on your thigh (where the regular stripping motion would put the line right in it). There may be one already out there that I have not come across. I don't like the mesh ones because in high winds your line can become tangled.

BigDave
08-15-2007, 10:26 AM
I have tried it with a collapsable one and did not like it. This was the old orvis progrip model. I felt like it got in the way of the long strip when you have to reposition the fly or set the hook. Bone flats are usually windy and the line tends to blow around the basket, buckle, etc.

You might want to check out the Stan Pleskunas baskets - he makes a "hip shooter" type model. I bought one of his VLMDs for boat use and the thing is incredibly well made and thought out.

petevicar
08-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Hi Swalt
A stripping basket can be very usefull when fishing beaches, where there are waves like in Los Roques. The advantages are the same as for any beach fishing and I would use a basket similar to those used on the Cape.
When wading on normal flats, I don't believe a basket is necessary unless there is a very strong current running. I have never felt the need to use one.

When fishing from a skiff in the wind, I like to use a bucket type of line tamer. This stops the line from tangling around anything and stops you standing on the line when a 15lb bonefish takes your fly.

In general terms if you feel better with a basket then use one.

I have used a pack away model from William Joseph that I don't like and also the Orvis basket that was OK.


Pete

bobsold
08-15-2007, 07:36 PM
The primary purpose of any basket it to nicely hold the line as you move about. Going out of your way to strip into it serves no purpose and often gets in the way of stripping the way you want. Something on the hip is perfect.

Swalt
08-16-2007, 07:32 AM
BigDave,
The Hip-Shooter is the one I am working on modifying. It's a great design, just don't want it on my hip. His VLMD's are very good.

Pete,
Sometimes when wading a flat you end up with all the combinations you mentioned where you may or may not need a basket. If you had something that didn't get in the way on open flats but could be used when walking the shore, in current or around mangroves it would be ideal.

You could also use it when fishing from a boat. When it your turn to sit down just store the line in the basket and its ready when you get back on the deck. Save time and maybe give you a shot at that fish that shows up when you would normally be getting your line out and set up.

Bobsold,
I agree with the primary purpose of a basket but to have one on your hip when stripping for bonefish would just get in the way. When I make a long strip that you use for bonefish my hand nearly brushes my hip on each strip. You could put it on the opposite hip but that would be awkward when stripping your line into it for storage. Lower on the stripping side thigh would not interfer with your natural stripping motion and be handy for storing your line at the same time.

JR SPEY
08-16-2007, 08:44 AM
Have you actually used a Hip shooter? I could see if one simply looked at the photos where you might get the idea that it would get in the way, but in actual use it doesn't. First of all, long strips are far more common when tarpon fishing. If your stripping is so long that the basket gets in the way, in my opinion your strips would be too long most of the time. Unless you have exceptionally long arms you couldn't strip more than a few more inches (OK, maybe a foot) farther anway. When your hand contacts the rear of the basket it is already well behind your hip bone. It is such a natural motion and when your hand contacts the back of the basket you just release the line. It couldn't be easier and is such a more comfortable approach than the basket sitting out front of you. That was unnatural, and so interfered with both stripping the fly and fighting a fish, that I never could get used to using one. I know the East coast striper and bluefish guys will find it hard to convert because they've used the other style for so long, but I'm betting that eventually everyone will wonder why it took so long to come up with such a sensible approach.

Smcdermott
08-16-2007, 11:05 AM
I know the East coast striper and bluefish guys will find it hard to convert because they've used the other style for so long, but I'm betting that eventually everyone will wonder why it took so long to come up with such a sensible approach.

I haven't seen the exact model you guys are referring to but I think the big difference for the "East Coast" guys is the depth at which we are often wading. It sounds like the models mounted on your thigh would be underwater in many situations out here. I think most of us have adapted our strip and basket location for the given situation. I use the old Orvis gray basket on the flats here and postion the basket on the side of my hip when retrieving into the basket. To others points I often don't strip into the basket if I have a fish in front of me. I still don't have it down pat but plan on further work this winter to keep the coils in my hand rather than dragging the line in the water on the bone flats.

Sean

juro
08-16-2007, 01:13 PM
I've bonefished quite a bit over the years but never used a basket.

I think the primary reason a basket is critical in striper fishing is not just strip length per se but total strip distance during focused sight fishing. In other words, the area within which you tease a bone is quite small, then you need to make another cast to it or it's buddies.

Stripers on the other hand are predominately blind fished and you cast as far as you can then strip it to the knot. That requires a basket.

The other points are valid - wading depth (sharks are rare on the striper flats) and wave turbulence (macrame with the legs). But I have fished without a basket in surf and on striper flats without any problems having spent many years handling long loops on rivers in the pacific northwest before the Spey days.

But I often hold loops of line beyond the tip-top on bonefish flats, not off the reel. Drop and cast. A bucket is of no value there.

The occasion that I dislike without a basket on bonefish flats is when the current is flowing strong opposite the wind. This sweeps the loops one side while the wind forces safe casting on the other.

For optimal shooting, you need the loops to be on the water on the same side as the cast. They lift off and into the shoot much better than when across the other side of the body and under tension of current.

A larger quantity of smaller loops and more false casts solve this problem but I prefer minimum false casts and fewer bigger loops when I can get them.

However current is often light in bonefish country and there's a 75% percent chance that the wind is not a cross-wind.

Not enough for me to ever want a basket on a bonefish flat.

The majority of Northeastern salt anglers in truth just don't know how to manage loops in the line hand because they skip right over the loop management skills when they buy the bucket with the beginner 9ft'er.

Spending a few days without a basket will do wonders for your loop management and you won't miss it on a bonefish flat, IMHO.

sean
08-16-2007, 03:59 PM
Also my 2 cents added here is the type of line you are using.

For floating lines (which is probably 95% of bone fishing I would guess) I see no need for a stripping basket, even here in the northeast. Like Juro I am used to managing large amount of line in loops from steelhead fishing with 2 handers. If the line is floating usually having some floating around you is not a huge deal. The line will still shoot fairly well off the water as it is on top.

However for fast sinking lines and even intermediates a basket can be a big plus which is why you see more northeast guys using them. They are the predominant line types out here. Mainly cause any line you lay on the water is going to sink and require many false casts to get it out of the water. Pain in the arse without a basket of some sort.

-sean

Swalt
08-16-2007, 04:16 PM
JR,
I have not used the Hip-Shooter but that brown truck should be bringing me one in the next couple of days. I may like it as is. I think its the best design I have seen. "Long Streep, Long Streep" I have heard that from a number of guides in the Bahamas. They wanted the strip to come back behind you, past the hip.

I can't identify with you NE guys cause I have not done that type of fishing. I have never used a striping basket before when bonefishing but there have been times when I saw a bonefish and my line was fouled up in someway when I needed to have the fly in front of the fish. I may end up leaving it in the boat but I want to try it.

juro
08-16-2007, 04:40 PM
I looked at the hip shooter and have a few assumptions about it having never used one...

#1 - it has holes in it so it's useless for wading.

#2 - it lacks stiffness so it's useless for wading.

#3 - long tie wraps promote cross-over wraps in the running line and are not as effective as cones

#4 - Why the $%^#&(*%^#@ does every one thing what they read on Dan Blanton's site is the sh*t? :lildevl:

If hardcore flyguys like BigDave didn't vouch for them I would not believe it was any more than just hype. But if Dave's used them then I know it's probably a great solution for fishing from a boat. I maintain from experience points #1 and #2 though, and am only guessing from the picture on point #3.

Smcdermott
08-16-2007, 04:53 PM
"Long Streep, Long Streep" I have heard that from a number of guides in the Bahamas. They wanted the strip to come back behind you, past the hip.


I think that is just their way of saying set the hook or maybe you cast too far and need to get the fly in position before the bone arrives. In my experience short twitches are the most commong retrieves when actually presenting to the fish.

Sean

Swalt
08-17-2007, 08:03 AM
I looked at the hip shooter and have a few assumptions about it having never used one...

Juro, the one I ordered came in the mail yesterday.

#1 - it has holes in it so it's useless for wading.

I don't understand why if it has holes in it that it is useless for wading, especially shallow bonefish flats? It does have an insert that you can get with it that does not have holes.

#2 - it lacks stiffness so it's useless for wading.

It is surprisinly stiff and has no problem holding it shape. Its not neoprene but a fairly stiff foam that will fold with the insert out but holds its shape with it in. Weight is about 1.5lbs.

#3 - long tie wraps promote cross-over wraps in the running line and are not as effective as cones.

I thought of that also, havn't had a chance to test it yet.

#4 - Why the $%^#&(*%^#@ does every one thing what they read on Dan Blanton's site is the sh*t? :lildev
I have found a lot of valualble information on his board as I have here. My 2 go to boards. They do promote sponser products strongly but thats not unusual.

If hardcore flyguys like BigDave didn't vouch for them I would not believe it was any more than just hype. But if Dave's used them then I know it's probably a great solution for fishing from a boat. I maintain from experience points #1 and #2 though, and am only guessing from the picture on point #3.
JR,
From just putting it on my hip it is far better for stipping directly into than I thought it would be. The lowering of the foam in the front helps with that. You strip into it till you hand hits the back of it, which is even with or past your butt, and just drop your line in. I would like it to be a bit lower but that can probably be done by just losening my belt.

kyhnau
08-17-2007, 08:35 AM
This discussion brings a little smile on my face.
I visited Los Roques march this year... We (my fishing buddies and I) hooked up with a local guide for a few days. We didn't really hire him, but he rather joined our daily trips to the surrounding keys (we did hire him for one day to visit the pancakes).
Anyways, im so used to wear my Orvis basket at the danish shorelines and I cant imagine flyfishing without. So, of course I brought it to LR as well. Our friend (Jesus was his name) kept swearing and cursing the use of stripping basket, and used every occasion to say "F****** Basket" with a smile...

Then one day after hooking up a bone, I dismantled the basket for better fighting. Watch below:

Notice the basket :Eyecrazy:
http://kyhnau.dk/Banan/upload/1_hookup.JPG

Smile.... :biggrin:
http://kyhnau.dk/Banan/upload/2_landing.JPG

Run basket, run! :hihi:
http://kyhnau.dk/Banan/upload/3_basket.jpg


Jesus was standing on the beach and screaming "RUN BASKET, RUN!!!!"... It was worth it all :chuckle:

By the way, rather scary to swim over the drop-off. However, the basket was safely returned :)
Anyway, I was glad I brought it there. As Pete mentions, there can be quite some waves in Los Roques... I believe it helped me on the pancakes as well. Im very novice in bonefishing (first trip) so it gave me "a good feeling". I will very likely bring it anywhere in the world as part of my flyfishing gear.

JR SPEY
08-17-2007, 09:03 AM
[QUOTE=juro]I looked at the hip shooter and have a few assumptions about it having never used one...

#1 - it has holes in it so it's useless for wading.

#2 - it lacks stiffness so it's useless for wading.

#3 - long tie wraps promote cross-over wraps in the running line and are not as effective as cones

#4 - Why the $%^#&(*%^#@ does every one thing what they read on Dan Blanton's site is the sh*t? :lildevl:

#1 - There is a separate bottom that can be used which does not have holes. Additional cost is $10.00.

#2 - It is stiffer than it looks. It certainly is stiffer than the mesh baskets that many East Coast guys still use. It is not as stiff as the dishpan approach, but is closer to it than I think most believe by simply looking at a photo.

#3 - Having never used a cone basket I can't comment to this other than to say I have no trouble at all with running line literally flying out of this one. There are two different types of "stalks" and it seems to work best if you use both the wider PVC stalks and the thinner mono stalks (about 600lb mono) together.

#4 - I had a comment all ready for this one, but have decided to decline. What I will say is that the ganging on for the Hip Shooter on Dan's site is no different than that given to Danielsson reels on this site every time a discussion about reels comes up. Nothing wrong with it, and it happens on just about every forum.

juro
08-17-2007, 09:37 AM
JR -

#1 - Does the separate bottom cover the holes on the sides? Does the water spill in over the lowered lip thus making the effective depth the lowest point on the cutout?

#2 - Actually virtually no one uses mesh baskets on the east coast, except from a boat where stiffness is not much of an issue if at all. I was out coho salmon fishing on the pacific coast last weekend and newbies were cursing their mesh baskets there and there was much talk about the invasion of water and lack of stiffness being a failure of basket designs even in that infant fishery (shoreline coho salmon). Bottom line - when wade fishing the only flex you want is a slight give against the beer belly.

#3 - Perhaps the spacing of the tie-wraps has been worked out in this one, however as they can bend over and dramatically decrease the spacing as they bend I maintain that they are not as good as cones, having used both extensively.

#4 - There is in fact a huge difference... the Danielsson reels had been proven over 20 years. The chatter here is about 19 years later!

Question - does the clip attach to either side?

The proof will be in the pudding. Let's see how the adoption rate goes a few years from now. I don't mind eating crow if a better mousetrap comes along.

JR SPEY
08-17-2007, 11:22 AM
JR -

#1 - Does the separate bottom cover the holes on the sides? Does the water spill in over the lowered lip thus making the effective depth the lowest point on the cutout?

#2 - Actually virtually no one uses mesh baskets on the east coast, except from a boat where stiffness is not much of an issue if at all. I was out coho salmon fishing on the pacific coast last weekend and newbies were cursing their mesh baskets there and there was much talk about the invasion of water and lack of stiffness being a failure of basket designs even in that infant fishery (shoreline coho salmon). Bottom line - when wade fishing the only flex you want is a slight give against the beer belly.

#3 - Perhaps the spacing of the tie-wraps has been worked out in this one, however as they can bend over and dramatically decrease the spacing as they bend I maintain that they are not as good as cones, having used both extensively.

#4 - There is in fact a huge difference... the Danielsson reels had been proven over 20 years. The chatter here is about 19 years later!

Question - does the clip attach to either side?

The proof will be in the pudding. Let's see how the adoption rate goes a few years from now. I don't mind eating crow if a better mousetrap comes along.

On the ones available from Mangrove there are no holes on the sides. The lowered lip, which is just a few inches, would in fact be the lowest point in the cutout. Your point in an earlier post about the depth the typical East coast striper guy wades may, indeed, be the difference here. Since I haven't done that type of fishing I just don't know for sure. Yes, the clip can be moved from one side to the other. That is one of the improvements in the newer design marketed by Mangrove. No further comment on #4!!:D

Smcdermott
08-17-2007, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=juro]

#4 - There is in fact a huge difference... the Danielsson reels had been proven over 20 years. The chatter here is about 19 years later!

QUOTE]


Just to make sure everything is on the up and up I have had the opportunity to blow up a Danielson 11-14. I haven't had a chance to get it back to Sean to open it up and see what happened but after about a dozen large tuna (50-100lbs) the drag now works in both directions. I will post a follow-up in the gear section once we figure out the diagnosis.

Sean

BigDave
08-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Sean that is what happened to my Lamsons (another "sealed" drag design) when they crapped out. Thanks for posting your first-hand experience with this reel. It seems many have annointed them superior to the standard gear for big game fishing (Tibor/Abel) without putting them through the paces. I know you probably tortured that reel in the bay earlier this year so it's good to get an honest report.

How would you compare them performance-wise (malfunction nonwithstanding)?

Smcdermott
08-20-2007, 11:04 AM
Dave,

When the Danielson worked it worked great. The drag was very smooth and we could lock it down to put some serious pressure on the fish. At the end of the day this has made me a believer in simplicity and it doesn't get much simpler than Tibor/Abel. Even if the fix is something easy I don't want an easy fix to be needed when I am in search of the fish of a lifetime. Hopefully Sean and I can hook up soon and figure out what went wrong and post the full report.

Sean

jimS
08-20-2007, 01:37 PM
One of life's lessons that I've learned the hard way over time is that there are few bargains out there in the marketplace. If you're serious about a sport, buy the best you can afford. As a serious shotgunner in a former life, I went thru a lot of guns that were almost as good as the best, but never quite as good. I began upgrading and enjoyed the new-found reliability, balance and attention to detail.

Let's check back in 10 years and see what products are still going strong. If I was a betting person, I'd say Simms, Sage, Tibor and Abel will still be thriving.

juro
08-20-2007, 03:19 PM
Well, since it's been suggested to keep things on the 'up and up' I have to point out a couple things -

I seem to have missed the "anointment" of these reels as superior for big game fishing per se... certainly no more than rationalization of the high-priced reels from those who own them in the archives :lildevl:

I do however recall much informative and frank discussion about Waterworks drag failures, Ross Big Game 'sealed' drag problems, etc. Unfortunately these warnings came about a year after everyone bought them, myself included - yet I considered that good information for consumer decisions and it came in the first 1-2 years of production.

Many including myself will contend that for mere mortals fishing stripers, steelhead, salmon, tarpon, bonefish etc these reels are unbeatable for price/performance - testimonials coming from years of firsthand experience for a product that has been manufactured for two decades.

I have no idea how they fare for tuna but again to keep things on the 'up and up' Sean's runs to the bluefin hinterlands are prone to throwing his tuna rods right off the boat, so I wonder if the problem is not the drag but an impacted one-way bearing that actuates the drag? It's got a stop in it that flips to reverse from left/right. Just a guess since it sounds like the drag works but the problem is it's actuated in two directions. Sounds to me like the one-way bearing is not giving way in one direction.

It would be easy to check just see if it rolls free (one way) in the fingers. I suspect that the HD series uses the same rollers throughout the series, so another quick test is to pop one in from another HD.

BTW their support as sponsors came long after they had earned a following among many of the members and as you have shown we do support objective discussion about sponsor products on the Forum.

Since the company is run by the actual Swedish engineers and machinists who designed the reels it might be a good test of how member presence in the field could provide feedback to them.

Why don't we see where it goes? I suggest you hit them up on this and see what response you get.

Smcdermott
08-20-2007, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE=juro]I have no idea how they fare for tuna but again to keep things on the 'up and up' Sean's runs to the bluefin hinterlands are prone to throwing his tuna rods right off the boat, so I wonder if the problem is not the drag but an impacted one-way bearing that actuates the drag? It's got a stop in it that flips to reverse from left/right. Just a guess since it sounds like the drag works but the problem is it's actuated in two directions. Sounds to me like the one-way bearing is not giving way in one direction.QUOTE]


Juro,

My apologies if my "up and up" comment struck the wrong cord. After a re-read I can see how it might have. My intent was a little play on what I considered to be a slight jab by Jr. Spey and all in good fun. Perhaps it would have benefited from one of these ;)

The informative part about the reel failure I see as just that. I made no assumptions and still don't about the failure. Not sure how my mishap with the rod going overboard has anything to do with my ability to know whether a drag has failed or not. Perhaps that was a jab in good fun:confused: Last time I checked Slinger, Sean, Porkslice, BigDave and a host of others on this forum are "mere mortals" going after what is increasingly becoming a mainstream fish. My contention in my second post was for these big fish I am not sure I want a one-way bearing in my drag system. As my recent trailer issues highlighted I certainly know a thing or two about the consequences of bearing failure.

Sean

juro
08-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Not at all Sean, you know I am just taking the opportunity to visit the other side of the coin freely thru the door you opened :)

My question referencing the vigor of your ride was only whether shock had anything to do with it, verses any kind of seal problem which seems rather unlikely.

And yes, I was being rhetorical but I was rising to the presentation. One problem report (haven't heard any others) being cited to classify an entire product line, or to invalidate a design concept will get me to bite every time.

Bored in Cleveland for most of the week... any fishin here?

Smcdermott
08-20-2007, 04:26 PM
My question referencing the vigor of your ride was only whether shock had anything to do with it, verses any kind of seal problem which seems rather unlikely.


Well for the sake of Science I guess I understand the need to bring up a painfull experience;) . As long as we are speculating, given my experience with the trailer and the assumption that it is the one way bearing my guess would more be the heat created during the blistering runs of these big fish. While I have had a few "pounding" moments on the boat my guess is the trips these reels take through the shipping process far outweigh the shock taken during a ride in my boat in the rod holder.

Sean

FredA
08-20-2007, 04:37 PM
Shock and abuse from shipping can be extreme if a product is not properly packaged. A properly packed product should not experience abuse.

Smcdermott
08-20-2007, 05:08 PM
Shock and abuse from shipping can be extreme if a product is not properly packaged. A properly packed product should not experience abuse.

Wow, tough crowd on this one. Not sure I agree with the above since all the reels I have ever gotten in the mail were in their case in a cardboard box. In any case my contention was that the jarring on my boat should certainly be considered normal for those using the product in its intended use.


Sean

sean
08-20-2007, 06:23 PM
I dunno what has happened. I have not seen the reel to see what is going on but it has failed.

These reels have almost no track record with large gamefish which is why I was interested in getting Sean to give em a workout. 8 60lb tuna while a load is not something that should screw up a reel meant for large fish.

Worries me as I figured these may be good large tarpon reels but those fish are twice to 3 times the size of the tuna we are catching and run as hard if not harder on the flats. I am sure the bearing has failed in some way. Doubt it is from water intrusion but it is an integral part to the system. Who cares about how good the drag is if the bearing fails. The drag is pretty much locked down on these fish and it would be disaterous to have this happen mid-fight. Bye, bye fish as one cannot reel against that drag.

Not giving up on them yet but this is the first big fish test I have heard of for these reels. So far not so good but I still have faith as they have served me well throughout the years but on much smaller gamefish under much less load.

Will definitely report back once I have ripped it open to see what happened.

-sean

Sephon
08-20-2007, 10:38 PM
I never wore a stripping basket when fishing for bonefish........:tongue:

-Chris

alan caolo
08-21-2007, 12:07 PM
We don't need no stinking baskets!

Adrian
08-21-2007, 06:32 PM
We don't need no stinking baskets! :hihi:

On the Danielsson front, I'm very interested to see how this unfolds. If its an internal failure, lets see how they respond. I don't think anyone is pre-judging the company at this point. But as Sean says, this is an important emerging fishery in the North East and if Danielsson can come up with the goods, then good luck to them.

I was surprised to see our old friend Salmo hasn't joined in the debate yet? :lildevl:

juro
08-21-2007, 08:28 PM
Sean / Sean -

Hey is this by chance the very reel I got in BC going on 10 years ago?

I passed on my 11/14 HD to Sean R as a thanks for his help w/ the Forum.

It would say "Loop" instead of "Danielsson" on the spool.

Smcdermott
08-21-2007, 09:20 PM
It is a Loop Juro. Sean R. will have to chime in if it is the exact one. I think he had a few of them.

Sean

sean
08-21-2007, 09:52 PM
No this is my other one that also loop branded but was bought right at the time the companies split ways.

Nothing different between them and the new ones. Hoping to get together with Sean soon to see what happened.

-sean

jfbasser
08-22-2007, 03:36 PM
No this is my other one that also loop branded but was bought right at the time the companies split ways.

Nothing different between them and the new ones. Hoping to get together with Sean soon to see what happened.

-sean

I think the transition from swinging flatwings for Stripers to high line speed casting of mushmouths for Bluefin is what did it in. Most reels can't take the shock:devil:

salmo
09-17-2007, 04:01 PM
Hi Everybody,

SSpey has just pointed me to this thread. I can't be in many places at the same time.......
My understanding is that we may have most likely the first case ( I am aware of ) of HD drag failing on the large fish.
I know many people who have landed large game fish on HDs and they never had any problems.
Do we know what has happened, how old is the reel ( HDs were introduced about 6 years ago ) ?

Thanks

Zb (Salmo)

sean
09-17-2007, 07:03 PM
There are less than 1000 of these reels out there (check the serial numbers on the new ones) and I doubt many (if any) have been matched against 60-150lb bluefin tuna. Will know tomorrow for sure what happened when I open it up. Definitely sounds like the bearing and it is an loop branded HD.

Unfortunately I think in this case danielsson lost a sale as I was lending mine out in hopes it would become a viable reel for this fishery. Rumor has it the interested parties have moved on to tibors....

Still going to get my other one out there and see if I can break it.

-sean

salmo
09-17-2007, 10:12 PM
Sean,

The serial numbers on new HD 9-13 is much higher then 11-14, and those are used routinely on Tarpons.
Bearings comes form other supplier, while the design of drag and drag's carbon disc cutting is done by Danielsson.
It may or not be one of those few bad bearing among several thousands installed on HD 9-13 and 11-14 reels, which share the same components.
I can't imagine there was no faulty bearing on other reels at least time to time.......
I am aware of quite a few cases where very famous, bullet proof big game fish reels with open drag failed due to hydroplaning effect....

Do you know the serial number of the reel?
If it is less then 150-200, it is most likely one of the first models. I am sure Tomas would known if they had problems with bearings in the first models.
Also does the reel have Danielsson engraving on the bottom of the frame. If the reel was manufactured by Danielsson ( even with Loop name) it should be marked "Designed and manufactured by Danielsson AB, Sweden"


Tight Lines

Zb

sean
09-17-2007, 10:39 PM
I run the speypages salmo and am very familiar with the reels. This is a low 100s model.

It really does not matter much who makes what part, it failed. Hopefully one day it will have a chance to redeem itself in the eyes of big game northeast tuna fisherman. Might be sending another into battle tomorrow , we shall see how it does.

-sean

ps Tibors may hydroplane in rare cases if you submerge them...however that does not happen often/if at all on a boat.

juro
09-18-2007, 11:46 AM
I respect the opinion from a single hardcore field test result but in a general sense 'one bearing issue does not a redemption need make' in my book. I have not heard of any other cases in close to a decade across the spectrum of angling venues around the world.

For those who favor other brands, viva la difference.

For anyone not happy with their current reels for whatever angling you do... you could very possibly become ecstatic. These reels kick ever-living ass at nearly half the price, period.

sean
09-18-2007, 06:55 PM
Well Sean and I figured out the problem.....saltwater intrusion. The bearing on the inside of the carbon drag disks had rusted out and failed. Was not expecting that to be the issue. The drag discs looks good though after a few tuna put them through some torture.

Another 11/14 is out to do some more battling this weekend. We shall see how it goes.

-sean

juro
09-19-2007, 08:54 AM
Thanks for the update.

That would have also been the last thing I would have suspected.

However it does tell me two things...

1) the bearing is structurally fine even for tuna. That being said the non-metallic housing will not corrode and might even be a plus

2) Since there are only two ways water could get in...

http://www.danielsson-flyreels.se/images/produkter/s5_taetn.jpg

and the o-ring on the drag knob is hardly ever touched (sounds like Sean set the drag on #11 and kept it there)...

then that leaves the spindle cap - which may have

a) come loose during use or
b) was not tightened fully before use or
c) that o-ring is not working

3) I would tend to think the water intrusion occurred prior to it's use on Sean's boat because there is little immersion going on in the boat, to the point made earlier about hydroplaning Tibors

Since it's been generally proven that saltwater intrusion is not a problem inherent to these reels I suspect the most likely scenario was that the knurled cap that goes over spindle assembly, although finely threaded, was not properly tightened at some point of immersion in the past and it caught up during the tuna fight.

If it's the one I previously owned, it could have been me who planted the seed since I did futz with the bearing to flip it to left-hand retrieve.

So how much is the bearing to replace?

(all speculation on my part indeed but interesting to get the diagnosis thanks)

Smcdermott
09-19-2007, 09:04 AM
Juro,

I believe the one I was using was the 590ish number if that helps you as to if it was yours or not. I certainly feel more comfortable using another one this weekend knowing it hopefully was a one off on the water intrusion. I still do wonder about "sealed" drags in general though. There is just no way to know if something has gone wrong compared with the good old fashioned cork where you can inspect quite easily before heading out to hopefully catch a trophy. Will report back if we can get hooked up again this weekend.

Sean

sean
09-19-2007, 09:20 AM
There is a rubber flap on inside if the spindle on the drag knob side of the reel. It looks like if that does not get seated properly water could get in. My guess is that is where it came in. I think this reel was the one I bought and Sean now has the one Juro gave me. I kinda doubt it could be the spindle cap as it has pretty long threads and if it is not seated all the way done the spool wobbles so you would notice right away if something was up.

I will say last night I took apart my other 6 assorted sized danielssons and not one had a hint of corrosion inside. Something out of the ordinary happened to that reel as I use my 9/13s much more and they are all clean.

Looks like that bearing is integral to the carbon fiber drag itself but I cannot image it will cost much if anything to get replaced. Will have to get Ron on the phone...

The drag on these reels can definitely take a tuna though, no doubts about that. I think in the future I will be more diligent about taking the drag apart at the end of each season just to double check...

I will also note I am very hard on these reels. In over 5 years they have not seen a rinse or any care whatsoever.

-sean

BigDave
09-19-2007, 09:59 AM
This is directed at nobody in particular, but:

I don't understand why you would experiment on these fish with anything less than the industry-standard big game gear: big cork with a spring loaded drawbar system...unless you are trying to get your picture on the Daneilsson website or something.

IMHO - it doesn't matter how or why the water got in. If the reel is up to the task, those issues should have been addressed prior to production. The fact remains that the reel failed and from the sound of it cost Sean a trophy fish. If that happened to me I would probably never use one (for this application) again.

If you consider all the days put in and many, many gallons of gas spent chasing Tuna (or $800.00 guide fees), why not pony-up for the appropriate reel? The cost difference is peanuts compared to the investment in time and $$ you have already made.

salmo
09-19-2007, 10:03 AM
Juro,

There is third way the water can potentially get into the bearing.
But first on your comments about the drag knob.

When the drag knob is reposition after L/R hand retrieve change, it should be squeezed against the frame before the locking screw is tighten to insure that the o-ring inside the
knob drag press against the housing. Trace of grease spread on the black o-ring inside the drag knob will significantly prolong the life of the o-ring.
The same with the o-ring inside the cover cap. Even is your don't press the drag knob there is a center screw O-ring which prevent water penetration. So i doubt the water can get this way.

Now back to the third way.

There is the V-seal between housing and the wheel bearing ( remove the spool and pool the wheel bearing to see it).
It is a peace of chemically resistant rubber ( V-shape) which interact with the wheel during rotation. The inside of the rubber is greased in factory and can be re-greased every few years.
To chance it simple pool the V-seal. The total operation takes no more then 3 minutes.
Even thought my original, one of the first LW 6-9 ( 5-6 years old) had V-seal in good shape, I have replaced it last year as the V-seal interact with bearing wheel each time the spool in turn on ( winding/unwinding).

The V-seal is cheap and cost only $ 2-3. Since I have now total 8 of LWs and HDs and 2 FWs I have spare V-seals and O-rings just in case. I consider those items like a car tire, specially V-seals.

If you guys make lots of miles on your LW and HD give Ron a call and grab 4-5 V-seals. In my personal opinion I would replace it every 3-4 year and put some grease on the inside on the V-seal, for a couple of $ it is worth. If you put a trace of grase on O-rings( inside a cap and grag knob ) you are fine for many years as O-rings move only time to time.

It is also possible that V-seal was somehow mechanically damaged. A few year ago I was walking through bushes along remote river of western Alaska ( my temple) to give a room for ca. 800 lb Yogi bear where suddenly i felt that something is pulling my reel.
It was branch which got inside the reel. After I removed leaves from the reel I have noticed the V-seal was de-shaped. Within a couple of minutes I have cleaned the surface inside the V-seal, repositioned it and was ready to go.

Zb

P.S.

Look at the manual booklet

Smcdermott
09-19-2007, 10:53 AM
This is directed at nobody in particular, but:

I don't understand why you would experiment on these fish with anything less than the industry-standard big game gear: big cork with a spring loaded drawbar system...unless you are trying to get your picture on the Daneilsson website or something.

IMHO - it doesn't matter how or why the water got in. If the reel is up to the task, those issues should have been addressed prior to production. The fact remains that the reel failed and from the sound of it cost Sean a trophy fish. If that happened to me I would probably never use one (for this application) again.

If you consider all the days put in and many, many gallons of gas spent chasing Tuna (or $800.00 guide fees), why not pony-up for the appropriate reel? The cost difference is peanuts compared to the investment in time and $$ you have already made.


Dave,

I will give you my take on it. I have a Tibor Pacific on order but it won't be hear for the weekend. This is my first year tackling the bigger fish so I wasn't geared up to start so we made due when the call came in early July that the fishing was on. I had a good bit of experience with the little guys and wanted to see if we could give chase and limit the backing capacity issue. Worked fine on the fish to 60-70lbs. The bigger fish of the past few weeks seem to be a different story. As I am sure you can imagine other things can come up (blown trailer axle to the tune of $1,200 and a lost setup earlier) so I had to put the Tibor off for a few months. Sean has been gracious enough to lend me not one but two reels to use in the interim. I am using this opportunity to give some feedback on a reel that has been around for a while but has seen limited big-game use. It did land about 8 of the 60-70lbers before failing due to the rusted bearing. My guess (hope) is that it will do fine this weekend on the bigger fish as well.

Sean

juro
09-19-2007, 11:14 AM
Are we talking about the design of a reel here or the history of a particular reel?

This is a low serial, high year, zero maintenance device that is the only instance of (minor) trouble anyone has heard of thousands of reels later.

I am sure countless stories of hydroplaning Tibors are out there for the looking... albeit they are much more popular at nearly twice the price and there should be a proportionately higher experience base out there.

But my point is this, much of the debate is about brand loyalty and what people's preferences are - not design issues.

Furthermore I see everyone's Tibors at the kitchen sink in the cottages and rental lodges (including forum guys) all washed on paper towels whether in Felton's pad in Acklins or in the Pacific Northwest.

This 11/14 has never had such a diaper change in it's lifetime. Let's call a spade a spade.

juro
09-19-2007, 11:18 AM
salmo -

Thanks for the info. So it takes $2-3 every 4-5 years - I can live with that.


Juro
The V-seal is cheap and cost only $ 2-3. Since I have now total 8 of LWs and HDs and 2 FWs I have spare V-seals and O-rings just in case. I consider those items like a car tire, specially V-seals.

BigDave
09-19-2007, 11:39 AM
Sean - that Pacific is going to be a monster on the big boys and your feedback is most definitely welcome :cool:

Juro - if you call spinning the handle under a faucet for 10 seconds after a full week of ungodly amounts of drag, getting banged around in a boat and saltwater spray a 'diaper change', I don't know what to tell you :confused: I takes me more time to rinse off the rod the reel was on than that, if you really want to call a spade a spade...

salmo
09-19-2007, 12:07 PM
Juro,

If the reel is used heavly in salt water conditions, and you remove the V-seal once a year or every two years ( 3 minutes operation), clean it and add a bit of grease the liftime will be increased beyond 4-5 years.

Big Dave

IMHO - it doesn't matter how or why the water got in. If the reel is up to the task, those issues should have been addressed prior to production. The fact remains that the reel failed and from the sound of it cost Sean a trophy fish. If that happened to me I would probably never use one (for this application) again.


Judging the reel based on one incident is not very reliable. Are you telling me that there was ZERO incident with bearings on Tibor.
We still don;t not how that water got to the bearings. If someone did not tight the cap or damaged the V-seal it is like that is not the reel foult !!!



It is like saying

that one car is better then the another only because of the porly maintain engine's failure, and the reason for the engine failure was technician's error who forgot to tighten the oil reserver cap so the failed engine was running a few hundred miles on trace on oil.

Let try do not wash Tibor for just a 1 year............... or put a bit of sand on the drag cork......

FredA
09-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Stripping basket is handy for sinking lines or making long casts to breaking stripers or while searching for stripers but they are a pain in the butt. And to juro's point if 90% of your fishing is for stripers while using a basket you'll never develop good line management skills. With the floating line I forego the basket or at least keep it on my back hip most of the time. Can't imagine lugging one on a bonefish trip.

BTW, Danialsson and bluefin sounds like an apples and oranges debate. Seems to me if you are targeting 60 to 110# bluefin on a regular basis you need a brickshithouse reel that can be thourghly inspected and maintained. That means simple and access to the inner workings. Speed and power kills. I'm sure Danialssons are fine reels (they're svenska, they gotta be) and they sure are pretty to look at, but there has to be a jump in abuse from salmonoids, bonefish, stripers and even lumbering 100# tarpon to the speed and power of 100 # tuna.

salmo
09-19-2007, 01:17 PM
Fred how do you inspect Tibor bearings if they are covered.....
You can easlily inspect once every two years HD bearings.....

juro
09-19-2007, 01:31 PM
A good debate is healthy as we have visited a lot of depth into the topics at hand.

However we will continue to agree to disagree on some aspects, thank God!

We need diverse views and healthy debate, there are some communities whose single-mindedness about things is frightening.

So is Charlton coming back or what???

salmo
09-19-2007, 02:43 PM
So is Charlton coming back or what???

So far those who bought it a few years ago can sell it for 2-3X of the original price on e-bay.
May be Charlton is waiting until people get use to very hight price.:lildevl:

I have a trout version I bought on E-bay early last year for $ 450. Now is near $ 1000

Zb

FishHawk
09-19-2007, 08:39 PM
The reactions to the failed Danielson are to be expected. Highly hyped and pushed as the most bullet proof maintenance reel out there bar none.
So, now it is learned that you must maintain the reel by changing the v-seals and re grease them . Interesting. This sounds like maintenance to me. :lildevl:
Or, perhaps it's a diaper change. :lildevl:
FishHawk

salmo
09-19-2007, 09:32 PM
If you want to comment please don't change my statement. I said I did change it just in case after 5 years, specially that the LW 6-9 was many times abused on the banks of remote Alaskan River.
I used before Ross and Tibor. I have no time and opportunity to watch my reel everytime I go through bushes, logs, driving jet boat in windy and sometime dusty conditions, with no service and parts within 300 miles and Grizzlies around. After 2 seasons sending the reels back to service I gave up and moved to Danielsson reels distributed at that time by Loop, and aded few more in recent years.
It took 3 minutes and $ 2 to change V-seal, like a tippet or fly. If you want to save $2 re-grease it every a couple of years
( assuming you wash your reel only at the end of salt water fishing season). All those operations are not necessary if you wash the reel once a week for 10 sec. without opening it, just for esthetic reason.
In the meantime no needs for soaking the "open reel" every evening............, cleaning cork, re-lubricating cork to avoid hydroplaning etc.

If you don't see the difference I can't help.... There must be the difference between the car requiring oil change every 5000 miles and the one requiring adding oil every few days due to constant leaks .
Sure from your point of view both need maintnance.:lildevl:

BTW, we still don't know if this the only reported case was due to material failure or user mistake.

Again, if I deep the open drag reel into sand and complain about cork quality, who's fault it would be mine or the reel??:tsk_tsk:

Anymore cases, or this is the only one out of 10,000 LW and HD which share the same V-selas and design.

Still reliability is 99.99%, no bad !!! :hihi:

Zb

sean
09-19-2007, 10:29 PM
I think there are a little overactions on both sides here...

- Both reels are great products.
- Both are easy to dissasemble and fix provided you have the parts with you. For a sealed drag the danielsson is remarkably easy to do maintenance on yourself.
- The danielsson requires a lot less maintenance than the open drag reels. There is no such thing as a maintenance free reel however.
- The tibors are heads and shoulders above any reel out there except for charltons when it comes to big game, they just are.
- On a boat I would/will use a tibor.
- In the surf and sand I will use my danielsson.

Not sure what purpose fighting over it is accomplishing. The danielsson 11/14 is really just too small for large tuna and the handle is not adequate. It will work but that pacific will do the job much better.

It is all about using the best tool for the job. Like with fly rods there is not one tool to do everything. Take advantage of the options out there...

-sean

and salmo:

BTW, we still don't know if this the only reported case was due to material failure or user mistake. It failed, end of story. Tibors fail as well. It happens.

Smcdermott
09-20-2007, 11:13 AM
Well said Sean. I agree 100%.

Unfortunately most reports have the bigger fish moving out. Hopefully the wind switch today will fire things up and give me (and the Danielson) another shot at a trophy this weekend.

Sean

vtloon
09-20-2007, 11:30 AM
From my perspective, it's a matter of Trade-offs. Sort of: "High Performance, Light Weight, No Maintenance Required.................pick any two."

I don't think I would want equipment that required no care; I'm quite sure I would not like the design trades. Besides, it's a great excuse to fondle the gear.

juro
09-20-2007, 11:47 AM
Very well said by all...

but of course I don't agree 100%, we can't declare the 11/14 unsuitable based on this one case

that would be like saying all toyota tundras are perfect because mine went 201000 and counting without much more than oil changes and tires

I will use my 11/14 on any beast fish appropriate for it (tuna included) and would wager it will never experience a problem, however it is new not a decade old and I will put the 3 yr main plan on that one if I do use it bluewater

but there is clearly no point in bickering and that I agree 110% on

fish on...

Smcdermott
09-20-2007, 11:57 AM
Juro,

No bickering here. Just a point of clarity on the Danielson. Sean and I did experience a bit of an ergonomic issue with the 11/14 trying to retrieve a ton of line these fish pull off. The big Tibors offer the option of a gorilla handle that eases that issue a bit. To my knowledge not an option on the 11/14. I think that was part of the main point Sean R. was making when he said the Tibor wins for big game. The retrieve rate on the Pacific is also much greater. Pretty close on the Gulfstream and 11/14.

Sean

sean
09-20-2007, 12:21 PM
Yeah Sean is right, it is not about the drag per say. It is just the reel is not designed with bluewater fish in mind. It was built for atlantic salmon fisherman.

Increase the capacity (make a 12/15) , arbor size and put a gorilla handle on it and then you got a bluewater reel. The handle is just to small for extended fights. Have been looking but yet to find a handle I can put on it that would fit. And no I am not interested in the goofy new danielsson anti-reverse.

-sean

juro
09-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Actually I was referring equally to my own bickering!

Good point about the handle.

Bob Reynolds
09-27-2007, 11:30 PM
I think there are a little overactions on both sides here...

There is no such thing as a maintenance free reel however.

It failed, end of story. Tibors fail as well. It happens.


Sean - You are a very methodical fellow and I agree with most of what you say, but it is obvious you have not had the pleasure of owning and using a Charlton reel. If you had your comments about maintenance free reels would sport an asterisk. One can scan every forum on this planet where Charlton reels are concerned and will not find one comment about a Charlton Big Game reel ever doing anything other than setting most (over 50%) of all the IGFA pelagic records over 100 pounds! There won't be any comments about bearings failing whether the fault of the manufacturer or supplier. You won't find endless comments about how many parts one needs to carry in ones pocket. You won't hear how this or that needs special attention being sure one tightens this or that or whether this o-ring or that v-seal is vulnerable to failure because a lack of maintenance. All you are ever going to read is of the superior performance, quality of machining and escalating value of reels made even 14 years ago. So while with time passing chinks have and are appearing in the performance of highly marketed, so called "sealed" reels reels such as Waterworks, Lamson, Ross Big Game, Nautilus and perhaps Danielsson, let's give Jack Charlton his due and post the asterisk to such comments! One might say reels come and go and Charlton is no longer made. True, but there's one thing that can be said about most of those reels - they DID GO. Charltons didn't go because they are all still out there doing the same thing they did the day they were shipped. Thousands of reels in the field delighting the hell out of thier owners without fanfare (other than the current market prices that reflect the incredible regard for the product). Don't get me wrong, I personally believe Danielsson is a good reel for the price - I own several. But to say there is no maintenace free reel is to deny a big part of current fly reel history.

salmo
09-28-2007, 12:35 AM
Bob,

I have never questioned that Charlton is in its own class, and own it, but putting Danielsson ( based on one reported failure) with the rest like Ross , Nautilus or Lamson which had many reported problems and failures is an gross exaggeration.
Heard that Cherlton is comming with new MAKO reel.
Looking forward to it.

Zb

P.S.

"about how many parts one needs to carry in ones pocket."

Don't translate what I said. Since I own so many Danielsson reels I see nothing wrong to have a few V-seals around, and BTW I don't carry them in my packet. What if 10-20 years form now they stop making them..........

sean
09-28-2007, 10:52 AM
Bob my bad, I know and have the utmost respect for Charlton reels. He produced by far the best fly reel ever made, just wish I could afford one.

Looking forward to his new reel, from what I have heard about Jack and his commitment to quality the new mako reel is going to be awesome.

-sean

petevicar
09-29-2007, 10:22 AM
Hi Everyone
I keep checking up on this thread to see what is happenning about stripping baskets.
I only find comments about reels, Danielsons in particular. Perhaps we should start anew thread on the subject.

Pete

By the way I don't own any Danielson reels. I have had a couiple of Loop reels which I thought were crap and ended up throwing away.

I have a Charlton Signature 8500 1.2 which I use as a back up reel for tarpon.
I have just bought a Hatch Monsoon which I think is one of the finest reels I have seen.

juro
09-29-2007, 11:09 AM
There's just not a lot to say about stripping baskets while bonefishing.

Oh wait I will add something... use a clear tub and make your own so you can see stingrays underfoot.

I would imagine they would get in the way when you are up to the family jewels in soft marl as well.

I would never use one while bonefishing, personal pref.

petevicar
09-29-2007, 01:17 PM
Juro
I agree apart from beach fishing in Los Roques.

Pete

juro
09-29-2007, 04:41 PM
Good point they are invaluable in any surf situation the latest to gain wholesale adoption is the pacific northwest salmon scene (coastal saltwater).

nmbrowncom
09-29-2007, 08:06 PM
in my mind a stripping basket for bonefishing is of no use except on the rare occaisions when water is moving through a narrow gap between adjacent land masses. otherwise the tides are generally so small and the current is generally so light compared to what we're used to hear in the northeast that a stripping basket serves no function- all the negatives, and no upside.