: Question about line types
02-13-2007, 02:08 PM
I've noticed that most people use a double taper line on their smaller rigs that they use to fish small trout streams, and most go with a weight forward line on the longer, heavier rods. I think I understand the weight-forward line, but I don't understand the purpose of a double-taper line. Thanks, Evans...
02-13-2007, 02:41 PM
Although there are those who use DT lines, most fly fishermen use WF lines for the simple reason that it is easier to cast further with them than with a DT. Also, there is no reason to use a DT on small streams or with light line, short rods. Some folks use a DT because they think it roll casts better than a WF, which is not true, especially at the typical 20'-30' or less casts made on small streams. Personally, I haven't used a DT line since the 60's
02-14-2007, 09:00 AM
Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with flytyer here. I pretty much exclusively use a DT line on my 4 wt rod for trout, salmon, smallmouth, and anything else in a river. There are several advantages to a DT line, one being a softer, more delicate presentation. If you're casting a fly to spooky trout, a WF line makes a bigger plop in the water than a DT line.
A second reason to use a DT line is that it may match better with your rod action. A soft action rod may load up too much with a WF line, especially when trying to make longer casts. I speak from experience on this one. I use a very soft action rod and it doesn't cast nearly as well with a WF as it does with the DT line. On long casts, the WF line overloads the rod and I can't cast nearly as far as I can with the DT line. So a WF line won't always cast farther.
02-14-2007, 02:51 PM
I don't want to come off as mean spirited or someone looking for an argument; however, based upon my 48 years of fly fishing experience and what I know about fly tournament casting, I must respectfully disagree with the assertion that a WF line "makes a bigger plop" on the water than a DT, or that a DT allows a more delicate presentation, that is unless you are using a bass or pike WF line because of the very fast and blunt front tapers of these two specialty lines. The front taper of a WF and a DT are the same length and profile if speaking of standard WF lines. There are some new WF designs that have compound front tapers, some with very long front tapers that end in very small and delicate line ends and some new WF tapers with very long bellies (standard WF lines have a 30' front taper/belly).
The delicacy of presentation has more to do with one's casting skill, leader design, leader length, and whether using a weighted or unweighted fly than the line used, with the exception of the blunt front tapered bass and pike lines.
And if DT lines were best for distance, tournament casters would use them, which they don't. Tournament casters use WF5 floating lines for the trout distace portion of the competition, not DT5 lines simply because the WF allows them to cast further with the 9' 5wt rods required in trout distance.
And the ultimate long-distance cast single-hand line is a ST (shooting taper) with mono behing it as running line. which is what Steve Rajeff used to set his world record single-hand cast of over 240'. If DT's were the distance champs, Rajeff would have used one. He didn't, nor do any of the other tournament casters.
Likewise in overhead 2-hand tournament casting where a 17' rod is used, Steve
Rajeff holds the world record once again with a cast of over 260'. He used a 50' long shooting head and mono running line to achieve this. And the other 2-hand overhead tournament casters use the same thing. Again, if DT lines allowed longer casts, the 2-hand overhead tournament casters would be using them.
The same hold true for spey tournament casting. Modern compound taper long-belly WF Spey lines are used, not DT lines.
I have been fortunate to have lived in several states near some wonderful spring creeks and I have never felt that the WF lines I used did not provide a delicate enough presentation or that they spooked the trout. I have fished some of Pennsylvania's very well-known and hard fished spring creeks: Letort, Penn's Creek, and Yellow Breeches, and some of Montana's spring creeks found on public land: Poindexter Slough outside of Dillon (it gets lots of angling pressure) and another one I will not name it because it is also on public land, is relatively unkown, and I don't want to see it get overrun with fishermen (locals would know it though) that is a tributary to the Madison River and I never spooked fish because of using a WF line.
02-14-2007, 06:35 PM
That was a great treatise on weight-forward and double-taper lines. Many thanks, Evans
02-15-2007, 12:40 PM
"The delicacy of presentation has more to do with one's casting skill, leader design, leader length, and whether using a weighted or unweighted fly than the line used, with the exception of the blunt front tapered bass and pike lines."
Yes, yes, yes.
Thanks, Russ. I was going to respond with a similar lengthy post, but you saved me the trouble. :wink:
02-15-2007, 01:42 PM
The delicacy of presentation has more to do with one's casting skill, leader design, leader length, and whether using a weighted or unweighted fly than the line used, with the exception of the blunt front tapered bass and pike lines.You bring up a good point there and I'm not going to disagree with you. It depends on the line taper. Personally, I tend to use WF tapers that have larger diameter tips than a comparable DT line. I also find that a DT line is easier to lay down gently on the water as opposed to a WF line. Maybe that's just my casting style, maybe not.
And if DT lines were best for distance, tournament casters would use them, which they don't. Tournament casters use WF5 floating lines for the trout distace portion of the competition, not DT5 lines simply because the WF allows them to cast further with the 9' 5wt rods required in trout distance.Tournament casts also don't use full flex rods. ;) I was making a statement about a particular rod, not in general. I'd be a moron if I didn't know that WF lines cast farther in general the DT lines. However, I know the casting characteristics of my normal trout rod, and it casts better with my DT line than my WF line. I get about 15' more distance on an average cast with the DT line.
As with many things in fly fishing, it comes down to personal preference. Just like each person should try different rod actions and lengths to find what they like, they should also try them with different line types to see what works best for them.
02-15-2007, 03:32 PM
I must still respectfully diasgree with you about a soft-action, full-flex (one that bends to the cork on nearly any cast) casting further with a DT than with a WF. Likewise, I must respectfully disagree with you about a soft, full-flex rod becoming overloaded with a WF line, while not becoming overloaded with a DT.
The first 30' of standard WF and DT single-hand lines are basically the same taper; but more importantly, they weigh exactly the same, within the small variation allowed by the AFTMA single-hand line standards for a given line weight number. However, after this initial 30', things change very rapidly regarding how much weight the rod is asked to cast.
The DT line continues to have it thick belly (the thickest and heaviest part of the line) go on for another 40-60' until it reaches the 5'-10' long back taper at the end of the line. On the other hand, the standard WF line has a very short back taper at 30' (2'-3') followed by the thin running line portion of the line, which weighs nearly nothing in comparison to the thick belly. Thus, a DT line weighs a lot more at 40' than a standard WF, and at 50' the DT weighs about 2x what the standard WF line does.
Therefore, the much heavier DT line at distances greater than 35' would overload a rod very easily; however, the lighter WF line at the same distance cast as the DT line would not overload the rod assuming you are using the same weight DT and WF line.
I also must diagree with you about tournament rods not flexing. Granted a rod used by a tournament caster in a tournament is much stiffer than those used in fishing. However, this doesn't mean the rod doesn't flex. In the hands of a very good distance caster, tournament rods do in fact, flex and bend. Let us not make the mistake of thinking that just because most fly casters do not have the technique and power in their casts not to bend a tournament rod very much that tournament casters cannot get that same rod to bend. They can and they do get those very stiff tournament rods to bend.
02-16-2007, 08:59 AM
I think you missed two points in my post:
1. I don't use WF lines that have the same diameter as DT lines. I use ones with heavier heads. Maybe I need to try a regular WF line on my 4 wt, but right now I don't own one.
2. I didn't say tournament caster's rods don't flex, I said they don't use full flex rods.
I read somewhere that with a DT line, once one end ends up fried īcause of too much use, you can turn it around and use the other end.
Thatīs one advantage if youīre short on cash
02-19-2007, 09:03 PM
I've never used a DT line, but if a WF line allows for greater line speed (necessary to increase distance), wouldn't it hit the water faster and therefore harder than a DT line, assuming equal mass? Casting style could compensate, of course, which may be why Flyter finds the WF line fine for delicate presentations, while Teflon, with his style of casting, prefers the slower DT line?
02-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Although it is widely thought that a WF line imparts more energy (i.e. line speed) to a cast than a DT, this is not the case. Simple physics tell us the amount of energy (i.e. line speed) imparted to the line during a cast is due to the amount of energy imparted. However, although both a DT and WF line can start out with the same amount of energy imparted (i.e. line speed), the Dt line dissipates the energy much more quickly. Let me explain.
A DT line has a uniform and very long belly (center section) of large diameter line. This mean there are greater frictional losses from contact with rod guides, greater wind resistance, and that the energy of the cast is dissipated across the complete length of the cast because there is no small diameter running line to be pulled along by the front 30' of line, which means there is equal mass along the length of the line after the initail front taper.
A WF line has thin diameter running line that more or less goes along for the ride after the 30' belly (head) is out the rod, which means the energy is concentrated near the front of the line and not dissipated along its length to anywhere near the degree it is with a DT. Its thin diameter running line has less frictional losses from contact with the rod's guides and has less wind resistance too.
Thus, a WF line will stay airborne longer with the same amount of energy (line speed) imparted to a cast as a DT line.
As far as a line making a noticeable splash at the end of a cast (unless you are using heavily weighted flies or have other weight attached to the leader), it is the result of the casts energy not being fully dissipated before the line touches the water. The easiest way to make sure the cast's energy has been completely dissipated before the line falls to the water is by aiming the cast a little higher than where you want it to land. The line and leader then unrolls, straightens, and falls to the water gently.
another reason some people might like DT lines is that itīs easier to do the roll cast with them. Since the line has a tapered design the energy transfers easier from the wider and heavier middle towards the light and skinny end when you are flicking the line
On the other hand, with the Weight foward lines you have to roll the heavier end using the lighter middle, so itīs trickier.
For regular casts, WF lines are more convenient on windy conditions.