Singles or Doubles? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Singles or Doubles?


Venture
12-20-2006, 09:31 PM
I am sure that many most of us are busy tying our favorite assortments around this time. For me, one of the great pleasures of this sport occurs at the tying bench. With all our exotic materials which we collected over the past half century laying in front of us......which hook should we ty our favorite pattern on......a single or double.

For some reason, most of my fishing has been with singles. But for some reason, I prefer now to fish doubles. I just have more confidence in the way they look, and the way "I think" they would ride in the water. With the extra wieght acting as a keel, I "assume" that the fly presents better.

And for some reason, even with the logic of one hook working as a pivot against the other, I think your chances of a "good" hookup is better.

So besides a few tubes and some low water paterns tied on light wire single hooks in a few sizes, I would think a good assortment of wets can be tyed with double 4s, 6s. 8s, and 10s for most wet fly Gaspe fishing.

I'm looking for some feedback. As I said, some of the value of this sport is sitting at the bench.

Willie Gunn
12-21-2006, 04:11 AM
Interesting point(s), in Scotland and the rest of Europe trebles were commonly used but as C&R became more acceptable doubles have become more popular.
I know a few good anglers that now just use singles so as you migrate one way they the other.

Hooking is one of the few things an angler can have no control over it is the salmon who decides on the hook hold and we all know how fickle they can be.

Venture
12-21-2006, 07:46 AM
Malcolm. On your rivers, what hooks do usually prefer? Trebles don't interest me at all. I think most on this side of the pond think the same. They don't have that classic sillouette that makes salmon flies unique. Good hook-ups are really not the issue as a good hookup is up to "the Gods", however it would seem that three points would increase your chances.

While tying, I sometimes visualize a fresh pool, and think "what fly would I pick". If it's early season with a good head of water, would I pick a fly tyed on a #4 single or a #6 double. It's gonna be that smaller double. If it were mid levels would I want to fish a #8 single or a #10 double. Definately I'd pick that favorite pattern on the little double.

I've released many fish from doubles and cannot recall them causing any more trauma to the fish as 95% of the fish are hooked in the lips or outer mouth. A deeply hooked fish is in trouble either way and thankfully these are rare.

wilson
12-21-2006, 07:46 AM
I've almost exclusively used singles but I've had a few hook sets that were just downright hard to get out of the fish. I went to the Loop doubles, #4/6 and smaller, on my tubes last year and was quite happy. Both fish I landed on them I had complete control over and when we tailed them the hook just fell out. I didn't have to wrestle the hook out of the scissors at all.

I like the Loop doubles because they have a bit of a bend back to them which I think minimizes the risk of getting them deep and the shank is pretty short. My non-tube flies are all still singles with the exception of the #8's and below.

-Chris

salmonguy
12-21-2006, 08:20 AM
Hi Venture,

If you go to Newfoundland to fish you better make sure you only take singles and make sure your barbs are pinched.
http://eurekaoutdoors.nf.ca/fishing/fregulations.htm
My personal opinion is singles and barbless. I used to fish some doubles and found I actually lost more fish then I did with singles. I always found the 2 points actually worked against each other.
On Prince Edward Island after the trout season closes you are only alowed to use barbless hooks. Since I started fishing barbless after the trout season I decided to continue it year round. As far as loosing fish due to barbless I might have lost a few but it would be minimal, but who cares if you loose a fish when you are about to release it anyway. Also when your fishing by yourself it makes it pretty easy to get a hook out when you have one hand on the tail and the other trying to get a hook out.

Alan (salmonguy)

wrke
12-21-2006, 08:48 AM
I fish them both, but prefer doubles most of the time . . . where they're legal, of course. I do think the flies ride better. Depending on the season and water I'll use them anywhere from 1/0s to 12s, heavy wire to light wire. I especially like the small doubles. I find no problems with both hooking and extracting doubles.

JR SPEY
12-21-2006, 09:14 AM
I fish mainly in Quebec in the early weeks of the season. If the water is even reasonably high it almost requires a double hook as most singles tend to rooster tail in the strong current. We commonly use hooks as large as a 2/0 standard wire double Partridge. A small hook that time of year would be a #4 standard wire double (in high water.) I also use Loop doubles and virtually never lose a fish with either of them. When I head to the Miramichi later in the season I'll usually use single hook flies there, except I use the Loop double tube hooks on my tube flies.

Willie Gunn
12-21-2006, 12:20 PM
Malcolm. On your rivers, what hooks do usually prefer? .

Early in the season I predominately fish tubes with either a Partridge Double or a Loop double depending on the size required, I think the Loop doubles are neater in the small sizes.

As the season progesses and water levels fall I use doubles or singles almost as the mood takes me.

GaspeSalmonBum
12-21-2006, 06:02 PM
Tying in the tag is a whole lot easier on a double too!

SALMONCHASER
12-21-2006, 10:51 PM
Always a single with a pinched barb,, always. At 37,,, I am starting to shy away from the lads who leave their barbs on,,, nuff said.
Salmon Chaser

papenfus
12-23-2006, 03:07 AM
anyone know of a North American source for the Loop doubles for tubes?
thanks

Venture
12-23-2006, 07:23 AM
Never heard of Loop prior to this thread. Looked it up and saw it was a short shank double. Perhaps great for doubles. I assume that the fly ties on these style hooks are more or less a streamer style, with wing and throat extending way past the bend. Need some confirmation on this........

But I also wanted to bring up the price differences on many brand hooks as compared to the old USA Mustad. On the J Stockard site, a box of 50 mustad doubles costs $11.35USD for sizes #2 through #8, while Partridge, Tiemco, Wilson, etc cost at least $11.00 for a pack of TEN hooks. Thats five times the cost. I've been using Mustad doubles for years. I check the points before each ty, and touch them with a little hook file I keep at the bench because they are not chemically sharpened. That may be the only difference. But after a few strokes with a fine file, the hooks are sticky. I then start tying.

So whats the deal with these expensive hooks versus the ole Mustad? I mean five times the cost is something to think about!!! We are only hooking fish that weigh under 40 pounds on a relatively soft rod. Has anyone ever straighten out a #6 single or double causing a lost fish? Perhaps, but surely a rare uccurance. I never had a salmon straighten my hooks, not even fishing three seasons on the Kharlofka late June. Pretty strong water with pretty big fish. Sometimes I bent a hook while removing it quickly for release, but that is rare too.

I wonder if those expensive hooks hold up to those little rocks on the shore that bust my points off on every now and again. If they do, perhaps then only would they be worth more.......

wrke
12-23-2006, 08:25 AM
I know Loop doubles for tube flies are available from Michael and Young and Stone River Outfitters (formerly Hunters). Yes, they're very expensive, but they're also beautifully shaped with small, straight eyes and extremely sharp with nice tiny barbs. They are absolutely the best for small (10 and 12) tube flies waked in the surface, but I use them in all sizes. Their fish-holding properties are second to none. They are the shortest tube fly doubles available. They have a black nickel finish . . . Mustad makes them exclusively for Loop. Superb hooks I just wish they weren't so expensive.
Bill

Venture
12-23-2006, 08:45 AM
Bill, Perhaps Loop is so expensive because their mark-up on their "buy from Mustad, and sell to distibuter, is so high.

If its anything like the expensive "Loop" fly reel of the past, that reel is now being distributed directly from the factory where Loop bought it from. It's now half the price and the exact same reel.

Willie Gunn
12-23-2006, 09:05 AM
If its anything like the expensive "Loop" fly reel of the past, that reel is now being distributed directly from the factory where Loop bought it from. It's now half the price and the exact same reel.

A bit hard on Loop as they have paid for all the R&D, marketing, etc, etc the producer is now just selling the reels on the back of Loop's work.

JR SPEY
12-23-2006, 09:43 AM
Believe me, when I total up the entire cost of a week's Atlantic salmon fishing, the cost of the hooks I use on my flies doesn't even get considered. The hooking qualities of some of today's newest hooks is incredibly better than most of the old standbys. Does an $0.80 difference in cost of the each hook really make it worth any increased chance of losing your fish?

chromer
12-23-2006, 09:47 AM
where did you hear that one willie? so how much r&d did Loop do when danielsen was who designed them and holds patent to those reels. I saw it other way round, loop riding on the backs of smart Swedish engineers until they had them copied from China without permission. that would put an end to any deal

Willie Gunn
12-23-2006, 10:41 AM
I cannot remember seeing a full page advert in any of the UK magizines for Danielsen.

As in any break up there is always two sides to the story, as I am not privy to the ins and outs I will say no more on the subject.

Gaspe Salmon
12-23-2006, 12:46 PM
Hello all,

I usually pick my hook type based on the type of fly I am using and the water I am fishing. I think that the doubles track better in faster water than singles that tend to slide to one side, depending on how they are dressed. In quiet water the singles seem to work well. They also work well in lower water conditions. Barbless is definately better for the fish, however, to date, I cannot say that the two or three seconds more it takes me to unhook the fish makes a big difference. Could be wrong - but I am only speaking from my experiences here on the cold rivers of Quebec.

Treble hooks were something I was uncomforable using in the past, however, ever since my European friends started using really tiny sparse treble hooks with great success I have reconsidered my position on them. I have yet to experience a deadly hook-up with a small treble, and when i say small, I mean size 10 and 12 which are the only sizes I use. I usually use them in lower water in fast runs with sparse flies like black sheeps. About 95% of my hook-ups are in the corner of the mouth or on the lip of the fish. Using them in the spring when the fish gulp down the fly is not recommended by me and most other guides around here.

Early season fish are voracious and will swallow just about anything single, double or treble, so going barbless in June is usually the way I go.

Best to you all and Happy Holidays!

peter-s-c
12-23-2006, 01:31 PM
David

How do barbless doubles stack up against barbless singles for holding onto fish?

Peter

JR SPEY
12-23-2006, 02:43 PM
where did you hear that one willie? so how much r&d did Loop do when danielsen was who designed them and holds patent to those reels. I saw it other way round, loop riding on the backs of smart Swedish engineers until they had them copied from China without permission. that would put an end to any deal

I'd be interested to know where you get your information. The fact that you don't know that Loop reels are now made in Korea, not China, makes the credibility of your other information suspect. Would you care to clue us in?

Venture
12-23-2006, 03:42 PM
JR Spey.
You are correct about the money. When you put things into perspective, the cost of hooks is the least of the expenses. But the question, or issue I brought up relates to throwing money away, something that most of us distain. You are more than entitled to your opinion regarding paying more for what seems to be better hooks. I never add up the money "I think" I spent wisely. Between the boats, the planes, the properties, and the trips, the hooks are the least of my worries. I just like my dollar going further, as you too perhaps do, and hate wasting money due to the effects of clever or inefficient marketing. If Loop is buying from Mustad, and doubling the cost.....the deal will evaporate in time, and Mustad will wind up distributing....just like Danielsen.

Willie and Chromer,
In regards to the Loop/Danielsen fiasco, I am just the end consumer spending my hard earned buck. Regardless of who was at fault, and who did what to who, in the end, the reels are now HALF the price, and are produced in the same place. Something tells me that their original "partnership arrangement" was totally at the expense of the consumer, and not thought out to where everyone wins. Someone seemingly got too greedy or there was some gross inefficiency in the distribution and marketing resulting in them trying to sell a $230.00 reel for $470.00. If I were the factory, and my exclusive distributing partner wanted to double the cost to distribute, the deal would have been off immediate. That mark-up would limit the sales drastically. And if I were the distributor, I would do my best to limit my mark-up, market and distribute efficiently, and negotiate a sharing deal with the factory, all in efforts to keep the cost of the reel competitive. This would have created more demand and given both the factory and the consumer what they need. I well understand this balance as it is my business. No distributor worth his salt doubles the cost of the item. That formula is doomed to fail. Both parties are at fault for structuring the resulting costing. But we as the third party (consumers) don't have to take sides.....we just have to watch out for ourselves and not overpay.

I just bought an ORIGINAL Loop reel made by Danielsen. My tackle shop sold it to me for $230.00 even though they bought it from Loop. They were supposed to get 470.00 for it, but they sold it to me for the cost of what Danielsen presently sells them for. The shop owner did the right thing. I am a loyal customer. I would not have bought it for the original cost, regardless. No fly reel I need to own has to cost me $470.00. My Penn International 50TWs with a lot more guts and much more complex than any fly reel cost $450......perhaps because they are distributed correctly in a professional manner.

Gaspe Salmon
12-23-2006, 03:50 PM
Peter,

I wish I could answer your question with a definitive answer but I cannot. My guess is that two hooks are better than one! By the way, I almost always take the barb off my real small trebles. Makes it a lot easier to get the fish back in the water quickly. Small hooks can be more difficult than larger ones to remove.

large single hooks that have no barb also seem to throw a lot easier. This is probably due to the fact that the larger hooks make larger holes in the fishes mouth and when slack line is formed, there is a better chance that it will come out. Double hooks tend to be smaller and when both hooks are well anchored, even if they have no barbs, they tend to stay in better due to the fact that their diamater is smaller.

BEst,

David

JR SPEY
12-23-2006, 04:37 PM
JR Spey.


Willie and Chromer,
In regards to the Loop/Danielsen fiasco, I am just the end consumer spending my hard earned buck. Regardless of who was at fault, and who did what to who, in the end, the reels are now HALF the price, and are produced in the same place. Something tells me that their original "partnership arrangement" was totally at the expense of the consumer, and not thought out to where everyone wins. Someone seemingly got too greedy or there was some gross inefficiency in the distribution and marketing resulting in them trying to sell a $230.00 reel for $470.00. If I were the factory, and my exclusive distributing partner wanted to double the cost to distribute, the deal would have been off immediate. That mark-up would limit the sales drastically. And if I were the distributor, I would do my best to limit my mark-up, market and distribute efficiently, and negotiate a sharing deal with the factory, all in efforts to keep the cost of the reel competitive. This would have created more demand and given both the factory and the consumer what they need. I well understand this balance as it is my business. No distributor worth his salt doubles the cost of the item. That formula is doomed to fail. Both parties are at fault for structuring the resulting costing. But we as the third party (consumers) don't have to take sides.....we just have to watch out for ourselves and not overpay.

I just bought an ORIGINAL Loop reel made by Danielsen. My tackle shop sold it to me for $230.00 even though they bought it from Loop. They were supposed to get 470.00 for it, but they sold it to me for the cost of what Danielsen presently sells them for. The shop owner did the right thing. I am a loyal customer. I would not have bought it for the original cost, regardless. No fly reel I need to own has to cost me $470.00. My Penn International 50TWs with a lot more guts and much more complex than any fly reel cost $450......perhaps because they are distributed correctly in a professional manner.

Venture, you may be involved in the business world, but you know very little about the fly fishing business. That "cost savings" came from eliminating the dealer, and I suppose to some degree eliminating Loop as the international distributor. The normal margins for almost anything purchased through flyshops is 40% and most of the stuff is more than that. As painful as that may seem to many consumers it is the only way a fly shop or other flyfishing business can survive. There simply isn't the volume available to spread costs out over more product. Powell, Danielsson, and a few other companies have decided to circumvent the dealer and handle sales direct. While I don't think things have gone as well as hoped for, there is a possibility that that business model will become the wave of the future. It would mean the end of the flyfishing pro shop which has more ramifications than most people realize.

By the way, the hooks that are made by Mustad for Loop are not Mustad hooks. They were designed by Loop and are simply made by the Mustad factory in Singapore (I think that's where it is these days.) Even Mustad's new Signature hooks are quite a bit more expensive than their models that have been around forever. If I could buy the same hook from Mustad and pay half the price I would do it, as I'm not into wasting money either. Since the hook is a proprietary design for Loop, that option is not available, at least not at this time. Therefore, I'm willing to spend more money to get a better hook even though it might be a little more expensive than it needs to be.

Venture
12-23-2006, 05:46 PM
JR Spey,

You are correct again. I know little about the fly fishing business. I do know about retailers though and know that they must average at least 40% - 50% margins on sales to cover their costs of inventory and overheads and hopefully wind up with profit. I do support the shop owner and support him loyally.

And knowing little about the industry, all I know about the Loop reel that I bought from the shop owner was that he said that because Danielsen distributes the same directly, so I assumed he meant that Danielsen now distributes directly to the retailer not the consumer. Is this true, or does Danielsen sell direct from the factory to the consumer and skips the retailer (shop owner) or the on line retailer all together?

It seems Loop sold the reel to the shop owner that I bought it from or else he would not have had it. He said he can replace it now at a cost that would allow HIM to re-sell it for $230. So I assumed that Danielsen eliminated Loop and also now sells to the retailer and not the consumer. Is that not true?

If it is true, then maybe my point was appropriate......and that was that I don't like wasting money. If this is not true, then they are making a mistake. But if Danielsen elimated one middle man and the reels are still sold through shops or on line dealers, then all the better for us. As I said, I don't know anything about what happened, but if you can buy something for half the cost.....I am all for it as long as it is a legitimate item. And if its from the original factory, I always give the factory most of the credit for the R+D.....as they are responsible for the production and quality.

And please dont take any offence to my dialogue. What I ask or say has no intent of arguing. I know that email and posts on a forum are sometimes taken the wrong way just by the nature of the venue. I just want to know more about doubles and singles and hook qualities versus hook costs.......

peter-s-c
12-23-2006, 06:07 PM
Peter,

I wish I could answer your question with a definitive answer but I cannot. My guess is that two hooks are better than one! By the way, I almost always take the barb off my real small trebles. Makes it a lot easier to get the fish back in the water quickly. Small hooks can be more difficult than larger ones to remove.

large single hooks that have no barb also seem to throw a lot easier. This is probably due to the fact that the larger hooks make larger holes in the fishes mouth and when slack line is formed, there is a better chance that it will come out. Double hooks tend to be smaller and when both hooks are well anchored, even if they have no barbs, they tend to stay in better due to the fact that their diamater is smaller.

BEst,

David


Thanks David,

I've used doubles only occasionally, but I like how they ride so I'd like to make more use of them. However, I've lost almost every fish I've hooked on a double (admittedly not many) and I just get the feeling that the hooks aren't penetrating the jaws of the larger fish (trying to drive two points home rather than one). They are sharp. Of the few fish I have landed, they've been smaller and only one point had a grip. I suppose I'm looking for reassurance that my results are not typical.

JR SPEY
12-23-2006, 06:44 PM
Venture,

Nor do I wish to be argumentative. I did have a good friend PM the other day regarding my posts on another site and he pointed out that I was rather "bitey." I certainly don't intend to be, so maybe it's just the stress of the holiday season.

Danielsson sells direct from their distributor in the US, Danielsson USA, run by a friend to many of us in Ron Larson. They involve no retail dealers at all. That is how they managed to pretty much halve their pricing. The Loop dealer who sold you the reel was probably delighted to get it out of his inventory as it has been dead weight now for almost two years. I sold all my Loop/Dainelsson reels at 40% off in January of 2005. That was over sixty reels and spools. The reel he'll replace it with is the new Loop reels made in Korea. They're designed in Sweden, with parts (especially bearings) from Germany, but the reel is essentially made and assembled in Korea. Due to the far lower labor costs of doing that and by removing the extra step in the process (which was Loop selling Danielsson reels) they are able to keep prices that are pretty close to the Danielsson product. They are also now in the same league quality wise since the introduction of the G3. Those you can buy at any Loop dealer, although there aren't a whole lot of them around in the US anymore. I gave up my Loop dealership this past January due to a lot of things, but it had nothing to do with the quality of the reels they were making.

I don't consider marketing directly to the consumer as inappropriate or unprofessional (or your words that they are "making a mistake.)" There are lots of examples in the world where that occurs. One that springs right to mind is Dell computers. However, if that becomes the business model of the twenty-first century in flyfishing it will mean the loss of almost all the flyfishing proshops. That will have a huge impact on the industry and a bigger impact on the consumer than most realize, as I stated in my last post. However, the charm of the American free market system is that the consumer will have the ultimate choice. If price is so important, which considering the success of the Wal Mart model it would seem to be, then lack of service, products made in China, and lots of other things will become the norm. Currently, dealers now contribute products for conservation banquets, give free or very inexpensive fly tying and fly casting lessons, allow products to be tried in the parking lot or even in some cases on the water, and usually are up on local fishing conditions, hatches, and the like. Many feel they can do without all that if they can save a few bucks, and maybe they're right. However, by the time many find out they were wrong it will probably be too late to do anything about it. And that's to say nothing about being able to rush in at the last minute to pick up some grizzly for the Adams you need for the weekend fishing venture. Oh well, I'll get off my soapbox. As I said before, at least the consumer will have the final say in all this and that's how it should be. I don't think it's going to be very long before we're going to find out the final verdict. Flyshops have been closing down at the rate of about one a week for almost two years now. Let's hope it was just the ones who didn't really know how to run a business anyway and probably should have gone out of business, but something tells me that it's more than that.

Merry Christmas

chromedome
12-24-2006, 06:05 AM
I've concluded that doubles are a better choice than singles for atlantics which is a reversal of my earlier "feelings". And as was said earlier, the Loop doubles are very good for this purpose. I wish I had more experience backing this up.
At risk of getting off topic, I do a lot of steelhead fishing and about a year ago went entirely over to barbless single hooks for this fishing from the barbed hooks I'd used most of the time before that. The evidence is mounting that my landed to hooked fish ratio has increased considerably. I certainly never expected to improve fish taking ability by going to barbless, but this seems to be the case. I've also gone to a shorter spey rod (14' to 12.5') during this time and believe that is a factor also. I know, too, that use of the barbless hook has caused me to pay more attention to keeping a tight line and am sure that's a contributor as well. I love the ease of getting that hook out for a smoother release.

Venture
12-24-2006, 07:47 AM
JR,

Thanks for the clarifications. I now understand. So in the end, Loop is now a contracting manufacturer who distributes to retailers. Danielsen sells direct from factory to consumer (Dell). Loop efficiently sharpened its costing structure by making it in Asia, and with that labor savings, he is able to compete with Danielsens cost, with increased exposure. Their success then lies with their OPs systems, sales and marketing. Got it. And you are correct about the fly shop operator wanting to unload this reel. Actually, I really like the reel.

A good friend of mine now owns Umpqua. His wife is best friends with my wife, and we socialize every now and again. I actually find it funny because I knew Hanse Bosch way before he bought the company and he never liked to hear fishing stories....as he is not a fisherman. He is a business investor that gets very involved in fixing broken businesses and holding on to them. He turns most of his businesses into "Utility" type businesses that run on and on, totally under the radar of "Neon Light" businesses who attract so much competition. It's interesting to talk to him about the business, because it now involves him overseas in Thailand where the flies are tied, and India where the feathers grow. Umpqua's business has evolved into the mass distribution of flies and hooks, as opposed to years ago when they sold materials. He is on the constant look-out to increase his SKU base. On the flip side, I also know fly shop owners that are not too happy with some of the changes in that company as well.

And I share your sentiments and support my local tackle shop and do urge others to do the same. A good tackle shop owner knows his market, and knows he must be competitive with On Line dealers and know who is selling who so as not to get into trouble and marr his reputation. My tackle shop does just that. He also sells slightly used equiptment for almost 50% off, and has a great consignment policy going on. I bought a mint condition 10' six weight Loomis from him last season for a great price. He also knows his customers and calls us on our cell phones when he is about to order from his distributors and asks us about ANYTHING that we are looking for. He ships your rods back to the factory for you if there is a problem....even if you didnt buy the rod from him....etc etc.

BUT AS IMPORTANT, a well run shop is a meeting place for guys to gather and share stories and information and provide a little oasis for us lunitics. I would hate to see our style of business evolve and not include the Pro-Shop. It would be shame. They must evolve along with the industry in order to survive. My shop, is a department within a privately owned "out door store", where the overheads like realestate is shared and spread throughout the large store which specializes is Guns and Hunting as well as camping. And the manager of the Fly Pro Shop department is very knowlegable and aggressive......but in a very cordial and value added way. I buy almost everything there making sure I support him, and he is there for me next season.

Venture
12-24-2006, 08:00 AM
I'm definately going to get myself some of those Loop Doubles. Just want to know, besides using them on tubes, what patterns or style fly would you ty with them for the Gaspe as they have very short shanks? Looking for some advice.

Chromer,
I am very curious as to your thoughts about going from a longer spey to a shorter one for full overhead casting, and traditional spey casting, or anything else you would like to add. I have limited experience with spey from my Karlovka days where the first year I fished with a single handed 10 wieght and was taught by a Scottsman to Spey while fishing the canyons. I bought a 15' Sage 10 wieght for the next season.

But I am interested in knowing the pros and cons of lighter wieght spey equiptment as most rivers I fish do not require such huge and heavy tackle. In fact I was ridiculed on the Matane this year when fishing it in a popular pool. All I wanted to do that morning what to swing that rod, as it had been 10 years since I fished it last.

So I am interested in your perspective........

wrke
12-24-2006, 08:16 AM
I'm definately going to get myself some of those Loop Doubles. Just want to know, besides using them on tubes, what patterns or style fly would you ty with them for the Gaspe as they have very short shanks? Looking for some advice.


I suppose you could use them for regular flies, but that's not they're intent they're very short. They're purpose-designed for use with tubes. Another tube fly hook (Partridge Tube Salar Double) has a slightly longer shank and I've tied small willie gunns on them.
Bill

JR SPEY
12-24-2006, 10:56 AM
Venture,

I enjoyed reading your last two posts. I think we're pretty much on the same page. There are actually two different Loop double hooks. One is the tube hook with the short shank and straight eye. The other is the Salmon hook. Both have the great points and small barbs, but the salmon hook is intended for tying. It therefore has a longer shank and a turned-down (!) eye. For some crazy reason the salmon hooks are quite a bit less expensive than the tube hooks, or at least they were when I was still a Loop dealer. I still have and use both hooks. My hooking percentages have improved significantly since I started using them. The barbs are so tiny you don't really need to debarb them like you might a Mustad, Partridge, Gaelic Supreme, etc. However, in Newfoundland, you'll have to debarb them anyway.:hihi:

chromedome
12-24-2006, 12:31 PM
I'm definately going to get myself some of those Loop Doubles. Just want to know, besides using them on tubes, what patterns or style fly would you ty with them for the Gaspe as they have very short shanks? Looking for some advice.

There are two styles of loop doubles that I know of. One is designed especially for tubes while the other has a somewhat longer shank and is used for standard salmon flies. These latter doubles I used earlier in the year to tie up the green and red butts, green highlander, and a shrimp pattern. The tube style was mainly used in conjunction with temple dog flies.

Hordur
01-16-2007, 05:45 PM
Hello Venture.
I notice that you said you fished Kharlovka several times.
I and my friends are going there in mid august 2007 and we are getting excited.
Did you also fish Litza? What can you tell me about those rivers?

best regards
Hordur from Iceland

Venture
01-17-2007, 05:33 PM
Hi Hordur,

You and your friends should be excited. The Kharlofka and Eastern Litza are perhaps the best Atlantic Salmon rivers in the world, by many peoples standards. When the water is right, the fishing is pure heaven. When the water is not right, you are still in heaven.

Yes, I have fished the E. Litza. In fact I took a 19 kilo (42 lb) fish in the Litza and the "tent pool". It was one of six that day, along with a huge sea run brown. I fished both these rivers from '93 through 95. The first year was only the second year that the camp existed, and was quite a bit less expensive to fish back then. We also had only 7 rods in the entire camp on one of the prime time weeks. THe end of June/beginning of July.

High cold water, big fish, rugged wading, and did I say BIG FISH. At that time of year, they are very tough in the big water. But dont get me wrong. You have to work for most fish. Thats what makes it a dream river. I think I averaged about 3 fish per day. The average at that time of year is approx 6 - 7 kilo ( 15 lbs ). Nothing really smaller than that. And 10 kilo, 12 kilo, and 15 kilo fish are common.

You are going in August. I am not too familiar with the rivers at that time of year. I do know that by the second week of July, grilse come flying through. Perhaps also there is another run of bigger fish during August as well. The fish like tubes, shrimp flies and skating drys. You also will do well with hitched flies. Tie a bunch of smaller flies on light wire hooks and leave room at the head for hitching......they loved hitched flies when the water is lower and a bit warmer.

You should be excited. It is a great camp, a great bunch of guides.....and extremely rugged. Much better that many other rivers in Russia that I fished. I fished several other great rivers in Russia and even caught many more fish in those rivers. But if you like BIG FISH, this is the place because you never know what the next cast will bring. It could be the biggest Bugger you ever saw.....

wrke
01-17-2007, 05:53 PM
Hordur
I've been there in August a couple of times and have fished all four rivers. We took fish on large and small flies on all rivers. I've never caught a grilse on any of the rivers. My largest was 27 lbs, I averaged a little over 15 lbs, but the largest fish caught on one of those weeks was 44 lbs on a size 10 tube waked in the surface. There were a number of fish over 30 lbs landed. We caught fish on wet and dry flies. It's difficult to name a favorite, but if I had to, I'd probably choose the E Litza, but each river is magnificent. Most of the fish are colored up a bit by then, but fresh fish do begin showing up in August . . . those large fish (Osenka) will spend the entire year in the river and don't spawn until the following autumn.
You'll love it.
Bill

Venture
01-17-2007, 05:57 PM
Here's a fish from the Litza. I was one of the designated "Killers" of the day, so the camp could eat. Every other day or so, they have one or two guys designated to bring home the meat. Other than that it is a strict NO KILL POLICY.

This one weighed in at 32# (Almost 15 kilos). It wasnt the biggest I got there. But it was the only fish I killed. I expect some flack from this coming my way. But when you you draw the kill number, its your obligation to feed the camp.

That year we ate mostly salmon and Caribou. Perhaps now they refined it a bit....

Venture
01-17-2007, 06:10 PM
This was one of many that was released. A beautiful bright 20 plus pound hen fish caught within a mile of the sea on the Kharlofka. She was brutal.....but beautiful. All fish are released in Russia except for a few to feed the camp......

Venture
01-17-2007, 06:16 PM
Ooops.......this is the right picture........ This one went back unharmed.