ZEC AGREEMENTS [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: ZEC AGREEMENTS


Green Ghost
09-27-2006, 08:21 AM
Hi everyone,

Now that 2006 is winding down and we consider fishing in 2007, I was wondering if anyone knew the extent of, or the details of the advertised agreements between the local ZEC's and Outfitters.

billg
09-27-2006, 09:45 PM
There are mutliple agreements on the Gaspe for the next 4 years. The Zecs are mailing out their draw info as we speak and the pertinent info will be included in with the draw card applications at least as far as Gaspe and Pabos are concerned; I cannot say for sure about Grande River or the Baie of Chaleur Zecs/Wildlife Reserve.

Unfortunately it does not look like the 75-25 rule will be in place for next season but I am extremely confident that it will be there for 2008. There are some other potential changes as well but it is premature to delve into them at this point. As they become more timely I will certainly pass them along.

There is 1 big change in Gaspe for next year (aside from the block of rods for myself) as well as one other potential big change for next year. First, the Pavillion will now be accessible to everyone through a phone draw in November. In the past dates have been reserved ahead of time in the same manner that outfitters set up their calendar. However, because it is a wildlife reserve (and wildlife reserves are intended to give equal opportunity at access to all with priority towards residents) they must now have a draw.

Second, Gaspe is also sending out a survey to its clients asking about opening the season in May (starting on the 25th). If there is enough interest it will take effect next May.

For what it is worth, fishing has been as good as it gets the past week with the rain we have gotten. The York is still up over a foot and the gates nearly came down on both the York and St. Jean. Lots of fresh salmon making their way up the rivers at this time. When the end of the season counts were done there was not much of a difference in the counts from July; there would be now if they were to count again.

Looking for some feedback here from those who fish in Gaspe. Do you think that sector 7 on the Dartmouth should be C&R like sector 12 on the York? I believe this will be put forth next spring at their annual meeting.

Bill Greiner

Salar89
09-28-2006, 11:43 AM
are you employed by the gaspe zec ? The govt" ?

billg
09-28-2006, 08:27 PM
Hey "Vince":

I am suprised to see this user id again.

I am all set with my water; did you get any?

Bill

Salar36
09-28-2006, 09:20 PM
Hey Bill, I am just a bit surprise to see you so arrogant...what will happen if the general meeting of ZEC Gaspe decide you have no rod? Will you be set?

billg
09-28-2006, 09:38 PM
Pierre:

Arrogance is your middle name; I am simply confident that the members of the zec will approve the deal; it is a WIN WIN deal. I believe that the CA of Zec Gaspe supported this negotiated deal unanumously. The people who sit on the board are respected by their fellow local anglers and their support for this deal will carry a lot of weight at the meeting. I would expect that the members will, in turn, support this at their General Assembly. Ask YC what he thinks about the agreement and whether it is a win-win. You will probably be suprised.

If I am wrong there is always a plan B; I am sure you would love to know what that is.

Good luck on the Matapedia; any salmon river is a great river. My 2 cents relates not to a river in and of itself; simply selfish management decisions.

Bill

Salar36
09-28-2006, 09:47 PM
Bill;

Sorry, here we don't have a middle name. The only name I know for me is Pierre Manseau.

Is your plan B is to sell your bussiness to native? If I remember, when we met on a "Table Saumon" , I think this was your plan B..? I might be wrong... but , I think you said " If I don't get these rods, they will get them"

But you know Bill, this is just salmon fishing...


Oh. You should go on the french board, I think Quebec people would like to learn from you...

billg
09-28-2006, 10:02 PM
Pierre:

Nice guess but keep trying! Plenty of options on the table; after all I own 1,000 acres and have riparian fishing rights on the best pools of the Malbaie. There are very few places in the world where people can actually own salmon pools and fishing rights. I am thankful that Quebec is one of those few places. There is a lot of value in these holdings. For one, the Nature Conservency of Canada (a great organization) owns land in the estaury of the Malbaie (as do I) and they are very, very interested in my holidngs along the river. If the Malbaie wasn't C&R maybe you would have an interest as well?

This year I had more Quebec anglers than in my previous 3 years combined. None was aware of bickering on french websites. If some people on this or other websites are upset because of negotiated agreements WITHIN the 20% regulation then that is too bad. The zecs can do as they please within the 20%. You yourself felt that way in the past and last year when we had lunch on the Grand Cas you didn't seem to be that concerned with the outfitters getting rods in the 20% as long as there was minimal impact on resident anglers. My rods on the Grande and Pabos are not an issue for you since you never fish there (can't keep big fish there) and they have small numbers of resident anglers compared to their overall client base.

I do support the FQSA despite your arrogance and jealousy and will continue to support them in the future. Your President is a good man and has the ability to see the big picture and does not get caught up in your tirades.

With the 40-50 mm of rain tomorrow I am sure you will have a wonderful time on the Matapedia. Tightlines!

Bill

Salar36
09-28-2006, 10:21 PM
Bill

I have always defended the 20% as a way to finance little rivers. What you mention is right. If you want to use the fact I am on the board of the FQSA, no problem, I can resign right now. I can use my own time for something else than having a perpetual fight. The only reason I am there is my love for salmon fishing. In 2006, I had more than 10 people I initiated (sorry if the words are not good) in salmon fishing. All new fighters for salmon situation.

But since you mention the 20%, you remember we also suggested to have this to be allowed by a draw. I can understand Grande Rivière and Pabos, undersold. But Gaspé?

Now you talk with contain. I can too.

My first post was against the fact you were very bad with people I love. Matapedia people. I know about their realty, you don't.

Now, I will shut it down. But if you want more contain, you will find me.

juro
09-28-2006, 11:51 PM
Gentlemen -

These debates have some important matters worthy of all of our consideration in the mutual interest of the salmon.

However these important issues seem to be occluded by name-calling and offensive innuendo.

I would rather not exercise my right to refuse service to anyone so please lighten it up.

Keep in mind that your participation on this forum is a privilege, not a right and I will take the shortest path to end troublemaking as I see fit.

thanks

Salar-1
09-30-2006, 08:37 AM
Pierre arrogant ??? NO friggin' way man !!! He's just one other salmonfisherman who believes,and has the he capabilty of fighting for what he (and 99.9 % of the rest of us Quebecois Salmon fisherfolk )believe in . Arrogant? no , passionate? YEP !!

Green Ghost
10-08-2006, 07:42 AM
Gentlemen,

The reason I posted the question was an attempt to get details on the agreements in order to evaluate for myself the potential for the ZEC to run a fair public drawing.

A couple thoughts

1) If Bill g has 20 % of the 3 Gaspe rivers limited zones before the drawing, throughout the season, that is fine and it should allow him to run a business. Especially combined with the advertised PABOS and Grande Riviere arrangements.
(there are also 50 rod days allotted for riparian rights)

2) That would mean that we, "the public" (Resident and NR) are now playing the winter drawing for 80 % of the seasons allotted Rods. Actually it is probably 40% during the winter draw. The rest being 48 hours water.

3) In my opinion, that SHOULD mean that the winter drawing will not be overloaded with card entries from Bill G. And I hope the ZEC made this stipulation!

Does anyone know what the ZEC has decided?? How it will be a fair drawing or what the details of the Agreements are?? Even the question What do we have left to play for??

The clock is ticking.

QuebecSporting
10-08-2006, 08:27 AM
I think if somebody wishes to enter the draws, it would be suited to have his/her
name and his/her address on the card, No??

Not the name of a participant and the address of his / her representative on the card!!!!!!! :mad:

Asa fisherman, I would have the pleasure to receive a confirmation if I was drawn and satisfied to know that my representative effectively entered my cards. Such as agreed!!

As a business, I demonstrate transparency and prove that there are no fictitious names and addresses..

It would avoid an overload in the draws and would give a better chance to all!


http://www.quebecsporting.com/Photos/075.JPG

Ann

Green Ghost
10-08-2006, 09:36 AM
All good points here Quebec Sporting!

The single most important point I am trying to make is..

If you have 20 % allready, then overload the draws (even with real names), then you also enter names on a daily basis for additional rods from the 48 hours draw, in the end you could end up with maybe 30-40 % of all of the fishing on all three rivers in Gaspe throughout the season. A virtual monopoly.

The ZEC should not allow an outfitter that allready has 20% of the rivers [/B]or thier clients [/B] to participate in ANY of the Draws either on November 1st or the 48 hours draws. It simply would not be a fair draw for the rest of us that choose not to use an outfitter and play the draws for a fair "PUBLIC" chance to win and fish limited sectors.

If the ZEC allows the potential for a monopoly by awarding of 20% and allowing participation in the draws by an outfitter and their clients, there is a very low probability that the public wins either the winter draw or the 48-hour draw.

QuebecSporting
10-08-2006, 10:37 AM
Morning Green Ghost,

I feel, if an Outfitter was given 20% of the waters, that’s fine. But use them!!

Where the ACCESSIBILTY problem develops, is when you see reserved and paid waters, and no one fishing!

Re-sell them. Or put the un-used rods in the 48hr draw. (don't monopolize a sector)

People want to fish, local businesses will also profit and appreciate!!

The Gaspé cannot survive without Tourism!! Become a Hero!

http://www.quebecsporting.com/Photos/IMG_6624.JPG

End of discussion for me...

Ann

billg
10-08-2006, 11:19 AM
Anne:

If you are suggesting that the cards I send in for my clients (real people who do not whack salmon) do not have THIER names and addresses then you are again misleading people to pick a fight. Grow up.

For the past 2 years the zec has required names and addresses of all participants of the draws to be filled out or a card is rejected; no one gets special treatment-- it is a rule. For all of the time you psent in the zec office snooping and documenting you should know that.

Also, don't give people the false impression that lots of rods go purposely unused. People cancel trips for a variety of reasons including: health, work, missing flights, and other conflicts. There are methods for reselling rods and I can state that I do the best I can to resell rods 48 hours in advance. There are also occasions where the unused rods never get repurchased.

How do you feel about kids buying rods with no intent of them ever fishing (just taking up a space for another angler)? Is that not an injustiuce as well? We have an old saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones....

Best of luck in 2007 on open waters, limited waters, private club waters, or wherever you and your clients fish. All business for the Gaspe is good business.

Bill Greiner

Salar-1
10-08-2006, 12:47 PM
Anne ,GG and BG
I'm including the "unused" rods issue as part of a dossier/project that I'm currently working on and hope to present to the Qc. and federal gov't's ,FQSA and ZECs .
Oh and there's an even older expression than "the livin' in glass maisons" proverb
STATUS EST SICIT STALTUS FACIT , or something like that

Green Ghost
10-08-2006, 07:46 PM
Please, somebody hear what I am saying.

NO WINTER DRAWINGS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTER's PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!.

ALSO NO 48-HOUR DRAW CARDS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTERS PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!

LET THEM USE THE RODS THEY HAVE BEEN PROVIDED WITH AND THAT IS ALL THE RODS THEY GET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We, the Public , cannot have a chance to win good waters if they allow those who already hold 20 % of the water FOR THE SEASON, to GET MORE WATER FROM THE DRAWING SYSTEM AT ALL , PERIOD!!!!!

billg
10-08-2006, 08:42 PM
Chuck:

First, Who said anyone had 20% of the rods? The rule which allows zecs to sell rods outside of the draw system is referred to as THE 20% RULE. I do not believe anyone has said that any zec, except Grande River, has ever sold 20% of their available rods to anyone. RELAX

Second, if you do not like the fact that a business such as mine can aquire rods AND also participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients then I would suggest that you contact the Quebec Government and gripe to them. LOL.

Third, remember that you as a non-resident are privileged to be able to fish in Quebec; it is not a RIGHT. I know that you and perhaps others may have liked the good ole days where there were few people on the rivers. Those days are over. And, in the good ole days, Quebec taxpayers subsidized your fishing by making up revenue shortfalls within the zec system through grants or subsidies to the zecs losing money. There are roughloy 10,000 resident anglers and a couple of thouseand non-resident anglers who fish salmon each year. At the present time the feeling is that the zecs need to be self-sufficient and not rely on Government handouts to keep the system afloat. Salmon fishing is a PRIVILEGE. The zec waters are governmental waters and owned by the people of Quebec. Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority. Once again here it is: first rights belong to First Nations PERIOD! Then the priority goes to non-aboriginal Quebec residents. Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents.

I know you are dying to know what is in the agreement signed with the Zec Gaspe. 418-368-2324 is a good place to start. If they wish to divulge the info at this time it is their right to do so.

In the case of Grande River, they are selling me 20% of their limited rods for the next few years (as they have for the last few). I will continue to be in their draws as well with no restrictions on the number of cards I submit for my clients. Once the 75-25 rule comes into effect (cannot happen soon enough in my opinion) then there will be no point in sending in cards there because only 5% of the rods each day will be available to non-residents (this equate to 1/2 rod per day and it is impossible to buy 1/2 rod).

The other thing you can do is to show up in Gaspe at the annual meeting and vote against everything. This is an option.

So much for a quiet fall...

Bill Greiner

QuebecSporting
10-08-2006, 09:22 PM
Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority



participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients


Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents



my clients (real people who do not whack salmon)

http://www.QuebecSporting.com/Photos/ouf1.JPG

ouf!! :confused:

Salar-1
10-09-2006, 09:36 AM
Bill
You can count amongst the out of province "doityourselfers"
One of Boston's senior ER surgeons
one New England pharmacist (sorry he own a pharmacutical company)
Four rather famous fly tyers (amongst others)
one reel maker
one slightly famous golfer
one artist
and one teenager who works for a grocery chain and who spends a substantial part of his earnings on Salmon fishing .
One old gent from France who spends three months each summer (as of two years back) on his favourite Gaspe river.
One of my favourite stories about your "doityourselfers " involves my drooling over a skirack loaded with twohanded rods and a museum collection of 5 Vom Hofes and one modern EXPENSIVE North American that we mere mortals dream about. Got to talking with the occupants of the car and and then -----------
cheers

billg
10-09-2006, 10:03 AM
Brian:

I think it is great that folks can come up now and do it on their own, regardless of who they are. I am not sure it will be like that forever but nit is like that for now. Those people have a right to the rivers but in MY OPINION their priority is not the same as the rights of First Nations, Quebec Residents, and Commercial operations that have a presence for 122 days and not just "prime time". Others may have a different view on this.

When I have done my slide presentations across the USin the past, I have always stated at the beginning that Quebec does not currently require the use of outfitters or guides for non-residents. I will no longer be stating this at the slide shows in 2007 as I do not believe it is my responsibility to promote fishing for do it your selfers. Other can do so but the rivers are becoming more and more crowded and it does not make sense to compete against oneself.

Bill Greiner

Green Ghost
10-09-2006, 09:44 PM
Just I case anyone out there in cyber space does not know. I have been supporting multiple ZECs in Quebec for 27 years. Not only do I support these ZECs with participation in winter drawings (on as many as 10 rivers per year), but also, I come to fish their waters whether or not I (or my family members) actually win the winter drawings. Furthermore, I also fish the water when it is high, low, no fish or on occasion full of fish.

When you speak of “Privilege” I am also privileged to pay 15 % more to fish the same waters.

All I have been saying and I continue to say is the truth. As a statistical and probabilistic fact is … if you put in more drawing cards then you win more water. That is a mathematical certainty. This is the same mathematical certainty that began the saga in the first place some 3 years ago. Why are all the non –residents winning all these drawings??? It is called statistics.

The entire concept of a fair public drawing has been lost. It is now about the money. More names, more money, means more winnings = the plain truth. This has nothing to do with the pecking orders of who has the right to fish there; this has to do with plain and simple mathematics. More cards = More wins!

What I find most interesting about the facts are that Bill continues to try and say that he is in favor of a 75% / 25 % Resident vs. non-resident split in the draw system. This seems to be despite the fact that the likely average in his camp is 80% non – residents!

I sincerely hope that the ZEC is paying close attention to the posts that have been stated on this board. SUPPOSEDLY they already mailed out the Arrangements that have been made and will DIVULGE to the public exactly what rods have been awarded already and therefore what rods are left for the rest of us to Try and win against the Mathematical and certain statistical Odds if overloading of the drawings is allowed to continue.

I have nothing that I should contact the ZEC for or the Quebec Government for that matter- I think the management of the water has been extremely well done. That is until the overloading of the system became about money and statistics. Instead of an individual attempting to have a fair shot at going on vacation in a beautiful environment that the ZEC System was designed to Promote. It’s NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A ZONE FOR EXPLOITATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will reiterate – If water has been provided in advance, before the draw, in order that they can maintain a business and provide employment, then the details must be disclosed to the public both resident and non-residents. That way, the public (many of which are ZEC members) knows in advance what rods are available to them PRIOR TO the winter drawings.

billg
10-09-2006, 10:26 PM
Chuck:

You bring up a couple of valid points:

First, I was under the impression that the zecs (Gaspe and Pabos) would send out information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors) in with the draw card applications. And, that in this mailing there would also be the info relating to the general meeting. The date of my post in response to yours was in Sept when I was still in Gaspe and that is what I understood at that time.

I have spoken with folks in Quebec who have gotten their draw info and neither is contained in with the cards; the only thing different is the survey relative to May fishing. I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw. I believe that this info needs to be divulged but it is not my responsibility to do so.

To answer one of your questions, some people involved with the zec do read these posts, that you can be assured of. That said I think the best way to communicate with them is via email or phone and not on a bulletin board (they will not respond on a BB).

Next, as stated many times before I am 100% in favor of 75-25. It does not matter that my clients are mostly non-residents. My business will get some rods outside of the draw system through agreements. I will also be participating in the draws with all 3 zecs I do business with and certainly understand that there will be a limit to the number of rods available to any non resident angler (client of an outfitter, guide, or a do it your selfer). No problem here with that; the majority of the rods left (after the ones which go to the First Nations (I think those are the ones you mean when you refer to riparian rods) should go to residents. The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses. As you said you come up even if you do not win in the draws. You are not alone. I am sure you and others do so because the fishing is decent and is not expensive since you can do it without hiring any commercial establishment.

Here is an interesting proposition for the draws: 1 card per angler per river at a cost of $10. Like 75-25, I am 100% behind this as well. How do you feel about 75%-25%? How do you feel about 1 card for $10?

Lastly, I would ask you to define what you mean by overloading draws. The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boat.

And, to be sure, this year one could not fish if the winner did not show up. In days past the extra rod could be used; now it cannot be and is of NO value to anyone. Therefore, it is absurd to think that anyone's name will be entered into a draw who will not fish or does not intend to fish. The rods are of no use to any commercial business otherwise.

So now the issue is whether or not a business has the right to submit draw cards for its clients in the names of its clients; OR whether an individual can submit draw cards and then go through a business. The simple answer is yes; it is a democratic system. If you disagree with this you can attempt to change it. You can do as I suggested; call the zecs and the Government. All the complaining on the internet will change nothing. If you are sucessful in having things go as you wish then great; if not then so be it.

Lastly, as to water costs I would think that non-residents should pay 50-100% more per rod. That is reasonable considering that it is a privilege to fish there and to do so without the need for an outfitter or guide.

Bill Greiner

QuebecSporting
10-10-2006, 07:03 AM
The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses.
This is false information!!


The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boatand.
This is false information!!



I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw "information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors")


Are you telling us, that the Gaspé Zec will surprise us only after the pre-season draw (after collecting our money) that some spaces will not be available??
That whether we like it or not, it's a done deal??

http://www.quebecsporting.com/Photos/ouf1.JPG


Ann Smith

Salar-1
10-10-2006, 09:07 AM
Ann
"this isfalse information " :cool: Is this part of the BS that Dave mentions in another thread

HIGH FIVE EVERYONE !!!!
GREEN GHOST check your PM around noon:smokin:
cheers

wilson
10-10-2006, 07:38 PM
Gosh, I'd really like to chime in with an opinion or what I knew or didn't know, or what I knew I didn't know, which is a lot, but I don't have enough information here.

Does anyone know if the ZEC publicly states earnings?
What does their balance sheet look like?
Where does the money go or what is it spent on?
How much draw money comes from outside Quebec?
Is it in the 75/25 ratio?
Of the Quebec residents who go into the draw win and do those who win actually pick up their passes and fish?

Forgive all the Q&A but I work for a large Telco and we need to know these things. How much does it cost, where are the costs, what is spent where...and this from a "technical" guy. Knowledge is power and without it you have nothing to base decisions on.

Referencing David's other thread, this is about the salmon and the resource. Do we know that the ZEC is using some of that money to actually help the resource or is it squandered in some way.

It is a privilige to fish there and I find my happiness in the public water. Perhaps I'm missing something in the draws but I'd rather know where my money is going before adding to their funding.

-Chris

PS. Y'all need to drink more wine.

Gaspe Salmon
10-10-2006, 08:16 PM
Hello folks,

Ummm... which Dave are you talking about? And what BS are you refering to? Simply curious for now.

If you are refering to me, I would like you to state my full name.

Very soon I will be responding to many of your questions, comments, accusations, thoughts and rants.

I have been quietly sitting by the edge of the pool studying my fly box and I have almost decided which fly to tie on. I can guarantee you all that it is a killer fly!

Guys, Gals, everyone, PLEASE sit back and do like Wilson says, take a few sips of wine and chill out. You guys are killing yourselves with speculation. I can guarantee that it is not as bad as many of you are making it out to be.

As a former and new simple guide, I can tell you that I too am watching very closely what is happening. So far, I have heard so many BS stories and have seen people panicking over hearsay (I have no idea if I spelled that correctly), anyway... like I said, too many of you are too quick to take the fly that is being offered. Stop taking! Bill stop casting! Just kidding all of you. But really, things are not going to change that dramatically and if they do in the future, it will be to the advantage of Quebec anglers. That much I am sure of.

Like I said, I will be delivering my own take on things, BASED ON FACTS, very soon. For whatever it is worth.

Best to all of you,

David

Ann
"this isfalse information " :cool: Is this part of the BS that Dave mentions in another thread

HIGH FIVE EVERYONE !!!!
GREEN GHOST check your PM around noon:smokin:
cheers

Salar-1
10-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers

Salar-1
10-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers

QuebecSporting
10-11-2006, 06:00 AM
Morning Dave,

Just wanted to make clear, that I have done my homework.
The issue is here in Gaspé.

Sorry, but I get carried away seeing mis-leading information given to friends, clients and maybe future anglers of the Gaspé Penninsula.

First, I was under the impression that the zecs (Gaspe and Pabos) would send out information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors) in with the draw card applications

The Pabos Zec again confirmed to me by phone yesterday that no deal, no agreement, there is nothing on paper for the moment, signed with any Outfitter concerning secured rods for 2007.

The Pabos river cottages are actually on my Outfitter’s license.

http://www.quebecsporting.com/Photos/p_2006.JPG

So, lets wait and see what happens before selling rods that are not secured yet!


Happy to read you had a great Summer!!

Best Regards,

Ann

wilson
10-11-2006, 06:57 AM
Salar-1, thanks I forgot about that, I often don't read those in as much detail as I should and I've only been thinking about the money for the past year or so. The reason I made that quantum leap to asking where the money is spent (other than the 3 beer buzz) is I just got to experience my dream this past year by living in the Pacific Northwest and it was a total bust.

While David Bishop was getting back to his roots I was finding out that the PNW wasn't what I thought it was going to be (for me at least). In addition to other issues I encountered fisheries have experienced a lot of habitat degredation and the fisheries managers seem only concerned with creating more smolts to prop up fisheries with declining runs of wild fish. In essence, using the river as a giant hatchery rearing station. I've heard some silly numbers thrown (billions) around the Columbia River valley and all they really have are declining runs of wild fish, increased smolt production, and more habitat encroachment. Additionally, nobody is really watching over the resource near as I could tell.

This year on a drive over to Gaspe I saw a clear cut up around Murdochville that was clearly in the York watershed. Couple that with the comfy ZEC office and shiney new salmon cleaning station out front and there are mixed messages. If you want to manage a kill fishery that's worth fighting over then the resource has to be healthy and whacking some prime forest in the watershed may not be the righteous path. Same goes with the Matapedia.

My question really stems from that experience. I have no doubt that they are all hard workers, but I'll look into those reports a bit more closely. I know we don't do the smolt thing, but I'm always concerned about the habitat any time I see a new cut or gravel pit up there.

As an aside, Bill Bakke at the Native Fish Society does some incredible work out West with regards to providing actionable things that anglers can do to express concern over their resource. The newsletter he provides is incredible; biologist reports, new laws, dam proposals, and funding, they cover the gamut to try and show what is happening out there. I honestly don't know where they get half of it. They were one of the shining lights I discovered in the PNW.

www.nativefishsociety.org

-Chris

PS. More wine, less whine!!!!

Salar-1
10-11-2006, 11:05 AM
Chris
If you're ever out in the PNW again I could fwd some contacts to ya. You'll have to be fly fishing and a 2 handed rod would help breaking the ice . How does EXCELLENT (at least this past summer) Steelhead fishing WITHIN 50 minutes of downtown of a large metropolis sound ?
Regarding your observations on the drive up to Gaspe.Try flying over it and looking down at the devastation , Look carefully at the ridgelines .They SHOULD have the occasional tree showing up here and there towering over other trees not the" cropped right to the inch clearcutting" that's almost hidden from view.
You can see all the individual trees showing up over the forest floor.
Cheers

Salar-1
10-11-2006, 12:23 PM
OK
Just WHO is that well hung individual in the right of the picture ???:whoa:

wilson
10-11-2006, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the offer. I lived out there for 8 months starting last December and moved back to Maryland at the end of July. To be honest, I fished hard for 40+ days on several rivers and it wasn't all it cracked up to be; one Skagit River fish that was barely a "Gaspe Grilse". I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I didn't see a lot of fish, the river managers that actually catch fish at the hatchery and re-release them downstream to run upriver once again, jet boat drivers that'll think nothing of swamping you, all to find meth-addicts hanging around your car when you get back up the trail (if you even have a car by then). If I want to hook a bunch of hatchery Chambers Creek Steelhead I can head up to the GL and make that happen and be with people I know I can trust.

I'd seen enough come summer. The kicker was getting back to Gaspe to see the people and places I truly love took a red-eye + puddle jumper + more driving + 2k JUST TO GET THERE. Had I gone out west when I was 25 I may have stayed and lived the Steelhead bum lifestyle. The fisheries were different back then (I believe) but I have serious concerns about what is actually going on there. Now that I've been Gaspe-ified it'll be hard for me to put that much distance in between again. I'm happy learning to fly fish the ocean and taking my Steelhead trips when I can get them. I just don't want to have to look at what is going on every day.

To hopefully end this thread, you folks really have no idea what you have in Gaspe (Matapedia on East). It's beautiful country, awesome people, and an incredible resource. To me it is second to none and has really become my bolthole and a place where I can go and become "Chris" again after a long year in the lowlands. The reason I'm so adamant about protecting the resources is from what I've known and recently seen. As you all move forward in your lives, career and otherwise, keep that in mind that Gaspe has to be preserved because those beauties that lurk in her depths cannot be replaced.

-Chris

Venture
10-11-2006, 01:11 PM
Chris,

Very well put. I returned to the Gaspe after 25 years of fishing elsewhere. Yes, I had great fishing in Russia and Iceland. I also fish much saltwater here at home. But there is no place like home, and that is what the Gaspe feels like to me as I learned to fish salmon starting in 1970 on the Matane. And nothing rivals the Gaspe's beautiful rivers and its remote river valleys. Nothing rivals the folks living there. I was quite pleased that after 25 years, the places I loved were more or less the same. You cannot say the same for most places.

I can understand the passion of many people on this board fighting for their beliefs. Hopefully harmony will prevail, but first and foremost the salmon must live on.

Howie

P.S. I also got the chance a few years ago to venture into the Skagit area when my daughter went to school in Bellingham I fished the Sauk river, which flows into the Skagit. I hooked and landed a bright 15lb Steelie on my first day, on the first pool I fished which was accessable from a logging trail. Had also caught a nice dolly varden. Second day I hooked another Steelie and dropped it and had 2 dollys. That was my big Steelhead experience. Beautiful place those cascades, but I stayed away from the Skagit as I didn't like the looks of the river. The Sauk was much nicer and kinder to me.

Salar-1
10-11-2006, 07:35 PM
Chris
You TRUST those GL guys ???:whoa:
:hihi:
You're obviously beyond help !
Cheers

Salar-1
10-13-2006, 08:24 AM
Chris
FISH CLEANING station ? What fish cleaning station?? Unless you're talking about that alter that was kindly built for us Druids to perform our Summer Solstice festifities ? My suspicions however arose when I GPS'd through the centreline only to find that it lined up directly in a easterly direction with another religion that I can't mention in a public venue! Rather forward thinking on the part of the ZEC office I thought !! Also just look carefully at the stainless steel .The design you see there is an ancient Druid religious inscription.Loosely translated it reads "p--- off unwholely ones " At least that's what my Celt dictionary says. All Religious persuations ,however ,ARE invited to pray at this alter, even the C&R evangelists.However the purists amongst them might be dismayed at the occasional sacrificial offering at the alter of a salmon or two. Pressure from the C&R fundamentalists HAS reduced the reduced the required 7 sacrificial offering to a couple or even one a year, becaudse when you DO come down to it fishing is a blood sport. Although the C&R Evangelical Church tried to set up a pulpit at the alter, they were refused, However they ARE most welcome I understand at the Golden Arches Church just across the river. The C&R fundamentalists have questioned the rather solid construction of this alter .Well the ZEC office did this for a reason. Try holding a Druid Winter Solstice ceremony in a winter Gaspe storm with a freezing wind blowing off the cold Atlantic. Come to think of it,I even remember one or two of the GL guys drinking some "Mead" at the alter !!
So there you are !A fish cleaning station it ain't
Cheers

txraddoc
10-13-2006, 08:50 AM
I geuss to me it's not so funny to kill hundreds of large MSW salmon on the great Bonaventure then wonder what's up with salmon runs. I'm not from Canada but fish in your country extensively, and have been to Gaspe 3 times. Keep on whacking salmon and you can be like the US with no fishing!!! I go to Kola for multiple large Atlantics and I release them, not on any alter. I'm no C&R purist, I like to eat fish, but if you have a limited resource, do'nt be an ass about it, but hey, it's your resource, do to it what we did in the US and join me in Russia.

Tight Lines,

Jim Y

Salar-1
10-13-2006, 11:47 AM
Jim

Regarding the Bonnie.The zec office has re-sectorized the river in a very bold and courageous move. Analyse it carefully ,see what's been done and THEN make a comment about C&R. Oh and yes ,trust me I have already been crucified for my opinion in support of this decision. It was an equitable decision.Believe me the alternative(s) could have been a LOT worse.
oh and speaking of (my) ass I will never fly over Russia. My ass is just too precious . However You're very lucky to have the financial and personal freedom that allows you to go to the Kola and support a country and regime that is so kind to its journalists,armed service personnel,and travelling public .
Cheers

txraddoc
10-13-2006, 12:02 PM
You do not know what you are talking about Kola Salmon fishing, which is C&R and there numbers of fish are going through the roof. That does not matter, what matters is only you have the correct opinion period. Whack em stack em.

Tight Lines,

Jim Y

Salar-1
10-13-2006, 02:08 PM
Jim
You're right I'm "not know what I are talking about Kola Salmon fishing"
Let's see
.Fishing log SR '06
5 days on York during C&R period
2 days on Bonnie (early ) one fish bonked 6 0f 7 tags left
6 days on Matapedia all fish returned to river still got dem 6 tags left
1 day on Metis didn't fish but shecked out the river. GORGEOUS !!!! and some mighty fine people met !
return to Matapedia one Grilse returned to river .Damn !!! Still got them 6 tags left.
So what are we talking about ???? the fact that I PERSONALLY kept ONE fish this year ? I'll publically stand by that decision and believe you me it was a hard one that I agonised over during the 11 minutes of the fight and the five witnesses will attest to that fact ! It was probably the LAST non Grilse Atlantic that I'll ever kill .
Now that we've cleared (?) that up .We'll get back to the thread subject.
Since you've brought up the Bonnie .Read again the material on the re-sectorising and LOOK BETWEEN THE LINES and SEE WHAT'S THERE If you are ,as I suspect, ignorant of the river layout.
While we're on the thread subject
Bill
I've checked with Mdme Lise Laverite in Quebec Cite and she was unable to find under --
La Loi de Gestion de la Peche
plande gestion
1983 C. 39 a 62
62
63
64
--any allusion to the "pecking " order that you mentioned in that doityurselfers from outside la belle paye de Quebec are last and that outfriteres were where again? right after Qc. residents somewhere ?
Now then here's the fundamental truth the loi (law ) states that the especes animales (animal species) and stock reporoducteur (reproduction stock ) come first. Now
a recolt permissable pour chaque espece -----
means a permissable cull /taking of each species is allowed
cheers
PS :I'm off to return home and go to bed

Green Ghost
10-13-2006, 03:28 PM
OK,

First let me say.. I have more than 50 hours of work put in this week so this late post is on "My time"

I got my letter from Gaspe, It says that a meeting will be held during the week of October 9th to discuss the situation on outfitter rods (that would be this week). IT also states these discussions are about the Lower St Jean and York but doesn't mention the Dartmouth. Fine

It goes On to say that the results of the meeting will be posted on the website On October 2nd - My bet is that they missed a digit and it should be October 12 OR the 20th. That is plenty of tiem to submit electronic cards in the draw once we evaluate what has been added.

Perhaps Bill would like to enlighten us on the actual deal, weather or not it is in place for real and what we can expect to see when they post it on the web site. Since he is the recipient, He has no reason not to tell us.

He does indeed have a right to run a business and does provided needed jobs as I am sure you are all aware.

billg
10-13-2006, 06:47 PM
Green Ghost:

Not goin' there. There are some super spies in Gaspe who can spill the bans if they choose but I am respecting the right of the zec to publish things. If you did not call them it is too late; everyone is in the woods moose hunting for the next 10 days.

Jim Y; right on the money.

I will say this from my perspective. Many of us here in the US fight as passionately as we do for C&R not because we "know better". We have screwed things up here pretty good and though we hope for miracles (ie Connecticut River) we have seen lots of money and effort yield little in return. Our greatest hope now is Maine and that will take time. We have dammed the rivers, destroyed spawning habitats, celar cut, generated pollutants, etc. It is too late in most cases. All we have left is what is North of us and though the waters are generally not "ours", we do care about what will happen in the future. As I have said before, all that we can do as anglers is put them back. We would love to tighten up logging restrictions, reduce the number of seals, mergansers, commorants, figure out what is happening at sea, etc but we cannot. The passion form many (including myself) is to ensure that the rivers will be healthy in the future and that mistakes of the past (many made here in the US) will not repeat themselves.

Bill Greiner

Salar-1
10-15-2006, 04:55 AM
Bill
I totally agree with your last paragraph ( An Internet first,SR/BS agreeing with BG )
May we hold you to that statement in the future??:devil:
Green Ghost
Before I leave the office here and fly outta town for some C%R Moose hunting.Would ya like me to post what's been done on the "Entente" so far ??
Not to worry ,send in yur cards for da draw.:cool: and let's hope the (as Bill mentioned) "the mistakes of the past will not repeat themselves"
Cheers

billg
10-15-2006, 01:21 PM
Brian:

I think you may have read more into what I wrote than what I was talking about.

Mistakes of the past that I am referring to have to do with clear cutting, damming rivers, pollution, and destroying spawning habitat. Things that we have don in the US to ruin our salmon rivers. Some of that is being done in Canada (you bring up clear cutting and that is definately an issue on some rivers). There are dams on North Shore rivers but thankfully none on the Gaspe rivers. The St. John in NB is a shadow of what it was historically because of dams and habitat degradation.

If you have a copy of the entente or have details you are certainly free to do as you please with them. I will not be confirming or denying anything until Zec Gaspe decides to publish its contents.

Bill

Salar-1
10-16-2006, 08:19 AM
Bill
Thank's:devil:

Salar-1
10-19-2006, 02:46 PM
Gaspe ZEC has now published the Entente. It's now public domain !
I see there's been a few changes ;)
Cheers

Green Ghost
10-19-2006, 03:18 PM
What appears on the web site is the same that appeard in my letter I received except now it says the results of the special meeting would be put on the web site as of October 15th. Today is already October 19th and I saw nothing new on the web site. Can you enlighten us would be participants? What are the changes?:confused:

Green Ghost
10-20-2006, 07:25 AM
I found the details on the ZEC Gaspe Site, Just go to Francais instead of english and the PDF appears.

Gaspe Salmon
10-20-2006, 12:42 PM
Hi Ann!

I know you do your homework... I did not mean to offend anyone, as a matter of fact, I am not sure what you are refering to. All I am saying is that things are not always as they seem, or, as they appear to be when we write things on the net. Now that the agreement in principal is online, everyone can see what the stakes are. IMHO there is not much that is being taken away from anyone, as I see it, about 55-60% of the waters that have tentatively negotiated are on the ST-JEAN and not in the prime sectors of the York. THEN AGAIN, I am NOT THE expert on those rivers, sure I know them, but would never pretend to know as much as you, Bill and others about what sort of effect this will have on access to the rivers and certain beats.

My simple point that I would like to make is the following. If we want the salmon reasource to be just that, a REASOURCE for OUR REGION and OUR WORKERS, we need to use it intelligently. In my world, there would be room for RESIDENTS within a 75/25 framework, some water offered to outfitters, guides with businesses, having a set clientele, native rods, and public draw access. If you look at it from what the reality is and has been, outfitters (which I am no longer) have businesses, just like guide operations (who are also very vital to employment for our area) and need to have some access to waters so that they can continue to attract guests, which in turn will continue to provide jobs to our area.

The sticking point is two-fold, first, the illusion that has been created is that outfitters are trying to take over. This is simply foolishnes. If everyone would just look at what attempts have been made to create a fair system so that OUR REGION could continue to exist, i.e. jobs, then I think most people would understand a bit more. Ann, you must be aware of all of the layoffs in the forestry industry here. Now that we have lost hundreds of jobs what other resource do we have to survive on? You live off of fishing, as do your employees, my old employees, Glenn's, Bill's and others in the industry. Should all of US come second and third to anglers who come during the prime time only, who kill the resource, who come only when the fishing is good, or, from time to time? IMHO the answer is NO. If people like you, Bill, Glenn, and others are willing to invest THEIR money and their lives along with THEIR employees, it is their responsibility to fight for a place, albeit small compared to the GRAND scheme of things, in order to operate.

I think that most non-residents should consider themselves lucky to be able to come to this area and fish on their own, in N.B there is mandatory guiding and outfitters. Residents have lots of rivers to fish on throughout the Gaspesie and lower N. Shore including the N. Shore. I can understand that some may feel as if special deals are being made, however, I am SURE that the vast majority, not just the vocal minority, is in favour OF SOME SORT, that we properly use our reasource for the GOOD of our economy in parrell with the good of our recreation time. After all, for most anglers it is a sport, not a means of putting bread on the table.

My REAL POINT in all of this is simple. We must all stop fighting about who will manage the reasource. WE neen to collectively put our heads together, look at the FACTS, and come up with a solution to how to CONSERVE the SALMON. If we do not, we will no longer be fighting about managing empty rivers. Unfortunately, there are people that only see black and white. Salmon are Silver, somewhere in between, maybe we would do well to consider them FIRST, whilst we try to figure out who has the RIGHT to fish for them.

Again, let me make myself perfectly clear about MY POSITION, and I too have done a lot of homework and have sat at many meetings about this issue. People have to stop trying to CONTROL, this goes for the outfitters and the FGRSQ both. The disinformation, or rather, the lack of concrete information on what this reasource means to our area and our local economy has been somehow lost in this debate. It is a simple fact of life that salmon are a reasource and it is high time that we recognize this and get on with fairly alloting part of it so that we can insure our own futures as guides, cooks, shoreboys, drivers, booking agents, outfitters, etc... THERE IS PLENTY of water to fish and lots of salmon to fish over. However, when you get a poor year like last year, there are no anglers. So why is everyone bitching about accessibility when there are thousands of days available to fish but no anglers fishing??? Answer that question and you get a gold star!

Ann, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of your area and your passion for the sport. You are truly a good steward and mouthpiece for this area and for the salmon. I find it quite unfortunate that this debate has divided some of us who, after all, are all working for the same thing. Fair accessibility to our reasource. The word FAIR will always have different meanings to different groups and individuals. That is a simple fact of life.

I can tell you that there is simply too much disinformation as to what is really at stake here and it is very sad that things have gone this way. I got out because I was finding myself spending too much time defending certain points and not enough time defending the salmon. Today, my number 1 priority is to talk salmon fishing and conservation. That is all that really counts. Like I said, a couple more poor years of fishing and there will be no problem for anglers to get on the rivers, who will want to fish over rocks? It is high time that everyone put a bit of water in their wine and settle this once and for all. If not, non-residents and residents from away will simply give up on us and we will all be out of jobs.

Ann, I wish you the best, as always and hope to hear from you sometime in the near future.

Screaming reel and frowning rod to you,

Davd Bishop

Guide

Manitou
10-20-2006, 05:29 PM
Bill

I am wondering what rivers are you talking about that have dams that are located on the north shore that have depleated the salmon ressources

Can you name some please ? being a North Shore resident it would be interesting to know what your talking about.

How much time have you spent on the North Shore to make such a statement

Here is the list hope you can list to me the ones that have dams that remove access to salmon

Du gouffre
JAcques Cartier
Malbaie
MArs
Petit Saguenay
Saint Jean (saguenay)
Sainte MArguerite
Aux Anglais
Aux rocher
Trinite
Escoumin
Godbout
LAval
Pentecote
Aguanus
Bouleau
Corneille
Juspitagon
MAgpie
Mingan
Moisie
Nabisipi
Natasquan
Watshishou
Petite Watshishou
Piashti
Pigou
Romaine
Saint Jean (LOWER NORTH SHORE)
Sheldrake
Bras D-or
Checatica
Coacoachou
Coxipi
Gros mecantina
Petit mecantina
Ruisseau saumon
Ruisseau belle amour
Vieux Fort
Etamaniou
kecarpoui
Kegaska
Musquanouse
Musquaro
Napetipi
Netagamiou
Olomane
Saint Augustin
Saint Augustain Nord Ouest
Saint Paul
Veco
Washicoutai

And here are the Anticosti rivers

A l'huile
LA Loutre
PAtate
Cailloux
Aux Saumon
Brick
Chaloupe
Ferree
Jupiter



There are dams on North Shore rivers but thankfully none on the Gaspe rivers. The St. John in NB is a shadow of what it was historically because of dams and habitat degradation

North Shore Rivers are Plentiful and offer some great salmon fishing without the crowds in your neck of the woods

Jocelin

Venture
10-21-2006, 09:02 AM
I think David hits it accurately and cuts through most of the BS by not being able to clearly define "fairness". I believe that the term "fairness" is a manmade word that means nothing. If there is some "fairness" in the world, or in our lives, I would love someone to let me know. Is their fairness in Africa, the Middle East, the United States or Canada? Was their fairness throughout the ages in all the history of war and the misery it created. Is their fairness in the economy, or in business? Have you been treated fairly in your life? The word fairness is usually used to define something that always ends up to someone's benifit. Is that fair?

Objectively looking at this debate as a non-resident, and one who does participate in the draw, I would like to say this. It is most important that the provence support any business or industry that actively engages in promoting salmon fishing, and supporting the local economy. It not only is important for the economy of the area, it is also will protect the resource, as it is to their great advantage to preserve the species and their business. That is a no brainer. The active fishing lodges must get enough water for them to flourish.

Then you've got the "local" residents, who love to fish, and live in the communities surrounding "their" rivers. These "local" residents should get priority. They deserve it because this is really their river, as much as it is the outfitters. So they should lets say be "offered" up to 25% of the quotas after the outfitter's. A "local resident" can easily be defined by a zip code, or township. We do it here in the States all the time. I am sure you do in in Canada to. I have special "resident" parking privilages in my area over "non residents" as it is defined by township or a combined group of zip codes not states or countries.

What I don't nessassarily believe in is the disproportionate quotas for "non resident" to "resident" ratios. I see it as a flaw in what defines a resident and non resident AS IT RELATES to the river and the salmon. This is where I see the term "fairness" being used to substantiate and rationalize each group's "desire to control".

There are folks coming from Montreal, Maine, New Brunswick, Toronto, and New York just to mention a few places. ALL these folks rarely support the local economy of the region unless they are there fishing. All come seasonally. Hey, the guy from Maine may live closer to the area than the guy from Montreal. Whats the logic here? Why should the guy in Montreal think he should have priority over the guy from NY? What was his contribution to the region when not on the river? The cost of the non resident license and permit makes up for not contributing to "Quebec resident" income taxes that MAY be directed to the fishery of Altlantic Salmon.

And lastly, to just complete the circle, should the "resident" from Montreal have the same priority as the resident living in the township of Gaspe or the immediate surrounding townships? Again, these are the folks living there year round, through the hardship of winter, all the while supporting the local economy. They in fact ARE the local economy. As I said, this local resident living in Gaspe logically has more rights to that river than anyone else after the outfitter's needs are satisfied. But because the residents of the province far out-number non province residents and local residents, the term "fairness" is used manupulitively to insure they have better control. I like my logic better. I think it should be 25/25/50.

Howie

Sun Ztu
10-21-2006, 10:39 PM
David you have been given the hammer and unfortunately you have chosen the wrong nail. there is no illusion.Venture, salmon fishing has nothing to do with war and you are right Quebec does support business that engage in promoting salmon fishing and not self promoting . Read again the books of Balfour Kinnear and Falkas . Salar1 you have too much time on your idle hands.

Salar-1
10-22-2006, 09:48 AM
Dave
I'll agree with your post .However ,IF there's thousands of days with no anglers , I ask myself then there's NO need" the extra rods ?
If and IF a problem exists of access to reserved sectors,and I know a s--tload of lurkers read these posts(some, as a pile of emails attest , and some the email mention not posting because English is their 2nd language) So I know someone might bring this up at a Table du Saumon" May I suggest that 1 day /week on one sector per river be allotted any enterprise providing a outfitter/guiding service on one reserved sector per river that would normally be allotted in the Nov01 draw. Say, 2 rods max per "enterprise" .Outfitter /guide/guiding service could provide one guide/client. if that one sector has 6 rods then thered' be room for a minimum of 3 Salmon fishing enterprises .IMHO ,there'd be a ton of water to be divided up . IF any water has NOT been taken by the Nov01 draw the river managers could state that these wwould be now available .IF any enterprise cannot use his/her rod allottment ,he /she would announce by the post Nov 01 call in's that these rods would be available .
One previso that I would INSIST upon would be that these rods WILL be given to paying clients and not be used by employees/owners/promotional purposes/industry "freebees".
Cheers

blueelver
10-22-2006, 05:01 PM
Guys,

I ran some numbers on the catch rates and license prices in Gaspe, which I think are rather interesting, and I have a couple of questions for you:

The best data I found was for the York, and after a few assumptions my numbers indicate that non-residents pay about 620 Canadian $ for each salmon caught, and residents about 390 $, assuming the ZEC sells 90 days per season and that the limited sectors catch about 360 fish in an average season during the 2500 or so rod days. These prices are not unreasonable for a pretty river with lots of biggies, but I found the catch rate of 1 salmon per seven rod-days to be low. Do a lot of these licenses go unsold?

My second question is this, has there ever been talk within the ZEC's about selling a portion of the licenses to the highest bidder? I am sure that many of the rivers could see their catches greatly improved, if more money would be invested in habitat improvement, making the pie bigger for us non-millionares even if some percentage of the season would be sold at very high prices.

As a future visitor to Gaspe, who has never been up there, I would welcome your thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Ari Eiriksson

Gaspe Salmon
10-23-2006, 07:22 AM
Dear Sun Ztu, (whoever you are)

What nail are you refering to? A bit more precision would be appreciated. As to the illusion that I refer to let me explain. The "illusions" that are popping up are sometimes just that. One person says something, people take it as the truth, when it is really an illusion. That is what I meant/mean. If you have something constructive to add, debate, or challenge, then I suggest that you not hide behind a username with no information on who you are, or, where you are from. It might be that you have some very good ideas to share, then again, you may simply, like many others, be talking out your ass about something YOU THINK you know about. Then again, it would seem that you think that myself and some others who have sat around the Salmon Round table, like my friend Pierre Mansea, who you claim, "has too much time on his IDLE hands". Before making remarks like that, I would suggest that 1. you identify yourself (so that everyone can judge where these opinions are coming from and if they are worth taking seriously) 2. take in a few Zec or other river meetings. 3. Become familiar with the WHOLE debate and issue, meaning go back about 10-years. I have never read any of the books you have mentioned, if they have to do with salmon conservation, then I will glad to read them.

Also, if you have a suggestion as to which sized nail I should hammer next, I would gladly welcome your suggestion. In anticipation of your public reply or your private message, I remain convinced that with a bit of comprehension and some increased understanding that this is an INDUSTRY and that we need to make it work for OUR region,

David Bishop

Guide
Home waters, Cascapedia, Petite Cascapedia, Bonaventure, Nouvelle, since 1976

David you have been given the hammer and unfortunately you have chosen the wrong nail. there is no illusion.Venture, salmon fishing has nothing to do with war and you are right Quebec does support business that engage in promoting salmon fishing and not self promoting . Read again the books of Balfour Kinnear and Falkas . Salar1 you have too much time on your idle hands.

Gaspe Salmon
10-23-2006, 08:00 AM
Hello Ari,

Glad that you are thinking about discovering the beautiful Gaspe Peninsula!

As per your comments, please allow me to try to answer/respond to a couple of your questions/comments.

First of all, the actual value of a salmon caught by a visiting non-resident is about 3x what you stated (1,800$ + per fish), this is a number that was calculated over 5-years ago so it could be different now. Good point, however.

As to your suggestion, or, question as to why the government does not allow bidding on waters, I have this to say. The ZEC system was created to get rid of an old system that was almost exactly like that. Not so long ago, PRE- 1979, most of the rivers in Quebec were controlled, (leases were held) by non-residents and residents, mostly rich individuals and companies who had the rights to fish the rivers here. This meant that Quebec residents had little to no access on their own rivers. Imagine watching people from other countries fish rivers where you live and knowing that the only way you could fish was to poach them. This was the reality until the PQ Parti Quebecois came into power and a man by the name of Guy Chevrette (Pierre help me out if my facts are a bit mixed up) who was minister of the Environment came in with the order from the Qc Prime Minister to DE-CLUB most of the rivers and hunting territories that had been controlled, (leased to) by these outside interests. This is when the ZEC's which stands for (CONTROLLED EXPLOITATION ZONES) came into existence. Of course, it took a bit of time to get all of the Zec's in place, but today they are there. Their mandate is to sell access permits to anglers and insure a fair draw and equal access to all and to provide protection and habitat improvements on the river in order to maintain and/or increase salmon stocks. IN a nutshell that is the story, however, condensed I have made it here. Believe me, it is a lot more complicated than that. Perhaps someone else could assist me in explaining a bit better.

Therefore, you would have a REVOLT here in Quebec if the government sold out to the highest bidder. And BEFORE any of you start to think that this is what is happening now with the outfitters, think again, it is NOT the same thing at all. What I failed to mention is that there exists (and has existed for a very long time) a 20% discretionary "bank of rods" that Zec's are allowed to sell to 1. the highest bidder, 2. use for promotion 3. package together for their own purpose. This 20% is sometimes sold to outfitters, sometimes to individuals, (although usually only a part of that 20% is sold), but most of the time, it goes unsold or untapped. Now then, the government and from what I understand, the FQSA is in favour of rod allocation to outfitters via this 20% rule, which it turns out, is exactly what the outfitters are for as well. So where is the problem you and others might ask? I mean, there exists an avenue that was requested by the Zec's a long time ago so that they could be self sufficient financially a long time ago, and what has been done with the 20% well, not much in most cases. Excuse me if some of you managers who read this take exception, however, I did say "most".

Now then, to put up our rivers for bid would be taking about 100 steps back for our province and the ZEC system. This is my humble opinion. I do feel, however, that if the 20% rule exists, there should be a way to try to save the outfitting/guiding industry here in Quebec by allowing the use of some or all of that 20% to be distributed (after fair evaluation of everyone's needs) so that we are not simply giving away our resource. As of today, we are still one of the only places where you can fish without a guide as a non-resident and I think that is a good and fair thing so far. I do, however, feel that the Potential value of our resource could be increased for the benefit of the SALMON, (remember them??? not much being said about them in this thread thus far) in terms of habitat and restoration if prices were increased for certain people/industries. If you look at it worldwide, we offer CHEAP fishing here in Quebec and that IS A FACT.

My last posts, as with this one and you can count on future one’s will debate and defend this stance. We need to use our resource wisely so that the SALMON will end up benefiting. By the way, in the 20% that has been suggested as an avenue for outfitters to pick up rods, the price for each rod is WAY above the actual price that a resident and non-resident would pay. IMHO this is one of the best avenues for ZEC's to stow away money for the salmon. As a matter of fact I would suggest that each cent over the normal RESIDENT rod rate that is received by the ZEC's should automatically go into a fund for the SALMON ONLY i.e., salmon habitat restoration and improvement ect... Again, this is my opinion only. The money should not go for building camps, buying trucks, making gazebos, cutting trails etc... the Zec's should use the money they get from the other 80% of the rods they sell for those things.

So Ari, you have a good point and one that is readily available as a solution to all this mess here in Quebec at the moment. Sell off 20% to the people who need it to protect jobs in this industry here. Heck the mechanism for this to happen has been around for a very long time. It is time that we recognized that fact and started to use the 20% which in the past, had never been challenged to my knowledge. Ask the Zec's if they want to do away with their 20% and almost all of them will say NO WAY. Problem is, instead of using it for the good of our economy and the region by negotiating rods within it, they have been reticent to agree to sell it to those who need it the most. Those who I mention are indeed the outfitters who by the way, represent about 35-40 direct jobs in two areas. This is just two outfitters, not to mention all of the private guides that exist.

It is a sticky, complex problem, and I DO NOT PRETEND to have ALL OF THE ANSWERS. But after sitting on all sides of the fence over the past 14-years, I think that I may be able to suggest a few painless ways of making everyone happy, at least almost everyone. As with any democracy, you will only make the majority happy, not everyone.

Ari, I hope that you have an EXCELLENT experience here in Quebec and if I can be of any assistance to you, please shoot me a private message and I can fill you in if you have any questions.

Kind regards to you,

David Bishop
Guide


Guys,

I ran some numbers on the catch rates and license prices in Gaspe, which I think are rather interesting, and I have a couple of questions for you:

The best data I found was for the York, and after a few assumptions my numbers indicate that non-residents pay about 620 Canadian $ for each salmon caught, and residents about 390 $, assuming the ZEC sells 90 days per season and that the limited sectors catch about 360 fish in an average season during the 2500 or so rod days. These prices are not unreasonable for a pretty river with lots of biggies, but I found the catch rate of 1 salmon per seven rod-days to be low. Do a lot of these licenses go unsold?

My second question is this, has there ever been talk within the ZEC's about selling a portion of the licenses to the highest bidder? I am sure that many of the rivers could see their catches greatly improved, if more money would be invested in habitat improvement, making the pie bigger for us non-millionares even if some percentage of the season would be sold at very high prices.

As a future visitor to Gaspe, who has never been up there, I would welcome your thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Ari Eiriksson

Gaspe Salmon
10-23-2006, 08:15 AM
Sun Ztu,

I went back and checked my post and the word "illusion". It would appear that you actually think that the outfitters are trying to take over. I can not believe that anyone would actually come out and try to make anyone here believe that. Let me simply say this. If your job, your family members job, your friends job or some other person you respect job depended on an outfitter trying to make ends meet was involved, perhaps you would not think this way. Simply put, outfitters, IMHO are simpy trying to survive. When I was an outfitter, I was willing to invest my own time, money and life in a business that kept myself and 8 other people and their families employed. Until you have waded a mile in my waders, or, any of our waders for that matter, you should not be trying to make any of us believe that outfitters are trying to take over. To tell you the truth, if the outfitters had not popped up in this area to PROMOTE WAY BEFORE THE ZEC's ever thought of trying to promote outside of Quebec, there would not be such a demand for fishing and there would be a heck of a lot less jobs now. It is a question of survival, not control.

If you want to talk about control, why don't you shoot that comment to the zec's who in no small part had most of their marketing done in past years by private money from myself, Glenn Bill, Ann and others in this industry. Perhaps you do not like the outfitters for having put some rivers on the Gaspe into clear view of visiting anglers because it cuts into your fishing time. The one or two days you probably fish during the prime time season only. Maybe these anglers, who are about 95% CR anglers are a nuissance to you and some others who live here in Quebec.

Take away the outftitters on the rivers in question and you can be guaranteed about a 30% drop in sales. If you do not believe me, call Ronald at the Bonaventure Zec office and ask him how much money CB and SL spend a year on angling passes for their clients in NON-RESERVED and reserved rod zones. Then you can call Marc Gauthier from the Cascapedia Society and ask the same question about the rod sales in the branches. Follow-up that call to Jean Roy in Gaspe and ask him how many rods MRO and ANN's business buys. Just for fun, call the Grand Riviere Zec and ask them how much money BG has pumped into that Zec. Once you have your facts straight and you have done all of your homework you can come back and tell me that outfitters want to take over. Until then, keep on with the constructive criticism. I, like Pierre Mansea Salar 1 have WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON OUR HANDS and will be happy to respond to you.

In hopes that we will see the caped crusader unmasked soon!

I reamain in control of only my keyboard,

DB

David you have been given the hammer and unfortunately you have chosen the wrong nail. there is no illusion.Venture, salmon fishing has nothing to do with war and you are right Quebec does support business that engage in promoting salmon fishing and not self promoting . Read again the books of Balfour Kinnear and Falkas . Salar1 you have too much time on your idle hands.

Salar-1
10-23-2006, 09:24 AM
Ari
Dave has given you a good description on the how and why a ZEC is operated.
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Each Salmon caught is priceless
Each Salmon even more so
Each day on a river (ANY river ) is priceless
Each day preparing for Salmon fishing is priceless
Each memory of fishing is something that is cherished to all of us ,but especially to those that can no longer get to a river
Each memory of pasted on fishing friends is priceless,especially when their ashes have been spread upon their favourite pool.
So something a tad more that the $ sign does play a factor in Salmon fishing .and a $ sign cannot be placed on a fish's worth !
BTW : Your research that has revealed 1 fish caught /7 days MIGHT be a bit flawed .Ari , SOME fishermen that release fish do NOT advertise their statistics, especially if they fish on open waters . Announce to the ZEC/ river management that you've caught and released 2 or 3 fish on a certain pool and the day after you WILL share that pool with many others .IF that same fisherman has kept his/her fish they have 24 hrs. to report it.
You mentioned the York's stat's . Ari ,let me mention the stat's from a 2006 ,5 day trip .
4 fishermen, 7 fish C&R'd .( believe that only 2 were "reported" to the ZEC office)
So we have a much higher catch rate than is "officially" reported .
Cheers and enjoy our rivers

Sun Ztu
10-23-2006, 11:13 AM
It is one thing to be certain but you can be certain and be wrong

blueelver
10-23-2006, 12:30 PM
Dave & Salar-1,

Thanks for the replies. I don't dispute Dave's 1800$ per fish number, my 620$ per salmon is strictly the license cost, which is the part of the expenses I have to report and justify to my wife..

Dave,

Good explanation on how the ZEC's came about. Obviously, the idea I mentioned of selling a portion of the licenses to the highest bidder, would never be accepted if it included a big portion of the season. For instance, auctioning off 50% of the rod-days would require the catch to improve by 100% so the non-auctioned days would catch as much as before, which may be a bit too ambitious for most of your rivers.

Auctioning off 20%, however, does only require a better than 25% increase in the total catch for residents and other "lottery" anglers to catch more fish, even if they would have 20% fewer days to compete for. In my opinion, the current 20% that you say the ZEC's are free to distribute might be just the right ratio, and local outfitters with an established client base should be in the best position to buy those licenses. At the end of the day, the goal of the whole excercise should be fat and happy salmon stocks, more fish for everyone and more business for the locals. I agree with you that earmarking the ZEC's extra income for "salmon only" efforts is the way to go, and I would not be surprised if resident anglers would be more positive towards selling licenses to outfitters, if the extra revenue was more clearly being spent on the salmon itself. Either way, this is for you people up in Quebec to decide, although I feel you have a "moral duty" to listen to ideas from outsiders on how to nurture your priceless resource.....

Salar-1,

Thanks for the info on the unreported catches, this may be just what I need to persuay my better half that the fishing is worth the drive from Massachusetts up to Gaspe.

Ari

Gaspe Salmon
10-24-2006, 04:03 PM
Dear Sun Ztu,

I have been wrong before, I am CERTAIN of this. I will be wrong again, I am also quite CERTAIN of this.

As per the subject that you elude to whereas you suggest that the outfitters here are trying to take over, I am CERTAIN, that this is not the case and can easily defend that position, although I really do not see the point as I would simply be defending those who can defend themselves easily enough. As for me and my past life as an outfitter, you would be hard pressed to find any control conspiracy on my end as I had always scratched for whatever I got and certainly never controlled anything. If you are so CERTAIN about me being wrong, please bring forth your best arguments and proof, and I would certainly be happy to debate that subject with you.

For someone who is still hiding behind their username, it certainly would appear that you have something to hide from.

If I read your homewaters and location correctly, you are my neighbor here in Cascapedia, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all in regards to the private camps that occupy 77% of the total main river waters here on our river. Would you go out on a limb and say that they are trying to control everything?

Again, I am very anxious to find out where you are getting, or, how you are formulating your accusations. Certainly, if you are so sure, you will not mind telling us all how you have come to this conclusion and who you are.

CERTAINLY someone who offers such grandiose accusations should be ready to reveal themeselves.

You can be certain that I will be awaiting your reply,

David

It is one thing to be certain but you can be certain and be wrong