nantucket albie/guide report [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: nantucket albie/guide report


nmbrowncom
09-23-2006, 07:37 AM
i had to go to nantucket for business on friday. on nantucket, all bookings are for half days so i thought i'd book a guide for the morning. stressing out at feeling that i was being ripped off at payng $475 for a half day on a boat, i opted to book a wade trip for a mear $225 for a half day with nantucket's best known fly fishing guide service.... right around sunrise we arrived at great point, just east of the light house. there were a bunch of guys fishing the rip where my guide wanted us to be so he directed me instead to fish the east facing shore and pointed to where i should begin fishing and where "we" would be fishing to,about a quarter mile away.. i promptly took out my fly rod and began rigging, and he just as promptly took out his spinning rod and began walking away as i stood there tieing on my fly. i began fishing where he had instructed me to,and he began fishing about 150' ahead and moving in the direction of our destination. "strange" i thought, "maybe he's exploring for me". neither of us had as much as a follow nor did we see a sign of fish nor working birds. i was watching the other spin fishermen at the rip and did not see them hook up either. we left the east side of the light house and went to the west side (inside) of the light house.. during the ride, he commented to me at how slow the fishing had been for quite a while. he told me that he has not seen a keeper bass since july but did get a 27"er on the south side a week ago-"a far cry from the glowing report i got when i booked with his boss", i thought to myself.. when we got to our new destination, he again took out his spin rod and began fishing the shore ahead ahead of me while i tied on my fly. same results as before. "maybe this is the 'nantucket way' ",i thought. "maybe us visitors should be grateful that the locals even let us fish thier waters" i mused to myself with a degree of sarcasm... we did not see any of the other dozen or so spin fishermen in that area hook up either.` we then got into the truck and headed further down the inside in the direction of town. since there were a group of guys now fishing in this third area, my guide decided to walk up a bit before "we" began fishing. i decided to go to spin gear myself in the hopes of coverring more water as it was so slooooow. finally, my guide, who made sure that he always fished ahead of me, hooked up. i dutifully took my line out of the water and watched in curious bemusement while he fought and landed a nice bonito. on the way back, he hooked up again. this time the fish was big and strong, an albie for sure. while i enjoyed watching him fight that fish for a good 15-20 minutes (only to lose it about 50' from him), i thought it curious that i was chearing him on. "that's what you get for a lousy $225 for a half day" i said to myself as i stood shaking my head. he didn't stop whining about losing that "trophy" fish for the rest of the day. "did i do something wrong that caused him to lose that fish" i kept asking myself. what,"am i an idiot? he's fishing on my nickel and i'm feeling guilty because he lost the fish." i argued (to myself). .btw,no one else in that area hooked up. we then left for an area even deeper on the inside. same routine. he took out his spin rod and i took out mine. "this time it would be different", or so i thought as i jumped ahead of him. after about a half hour or so, a fish lunged for my deadly dick but missed it. all excited, i let out a yell which drew his attention. he was fishig a couple of hundred feet from me and came right over to assist me, i believed. he asked what happened and where."finally", i thought, "he's going to do some guiding". all excited, i pointed to the spot that the fish had just rolled. without hesitation he hurriedly picked up his rod and without missing a beat he cast right to the spot.i looked at him in bewilderment, while simulteneously noting to myself that the cast was right on target... nada, for either of us in that spot as well. getting close to leaving time, he was quite prompt in breaking down my fly rods so as to make sure that we were out of there without a minute to spare. well, i thought to myself, "the nantucket guides may charge more than twice the going rate, but they make it up in pure unadultrated chutzpah. is there entertainment value?" i wondered... surely there was no fishing value. epilogue: when my guide left me off he gave me those big eyes with the "where's my tip"? look. i looked him dead in the eye and said "hey, you were the only guy out there who cought a fish today, where's my tip?" he looked at me with a puzzled stare but didn't say a word.. "just another unappreciative cheap tourist taking advantage of the locals" i imagined he was thinking. he never got it.

bonefishmon
09-24-2006, 05:55 AM
Sorry to hear about this unpleasant experience. The last time I went I just rented a Jeep Wrangler with a beach pass for the day. Gas prices were lower and I think it was $150 with the pass. Covered a lot of territory and had a blast in the process. Cheaper than a half day shore guide and a whole lot more fun.

Phil

nmbrowncom
09-24-2006, 07:25 AM
i learned my lesson. i'm going to do the same as you on my next trip to the island.

FishHawk
09-24-2006, 08:58 AM
One way to stop this is to post the guides name and the shop that put you onto this guy. FishHawk

juro
09-24-2006, 10:50 AM
As a 'tour guide' of striper grounds meeself, I am speechless. I guess on the bright side you made my worst day seem not so bad... well not counting my first few trips :D

Many years later I've learned that it's not an easy task to put people on fish when your own "probe" is not in the water to prove / disprove the strategy in play. I do not fish while guiding at all however I understand that sometimes it helps everyone - but that was ridiculous!

Guernseybass
09-24-2006, 12:03 PM
I agree with FishHawk, name and shame that operation on the forums you frequent.

I would also put all that into a letter to his boss - otherwise how is the operation to know they have a bad guide unless their customers tell them. you may also get a refund which i would expect.

mark.

nmbrowncom
09-24-2006, 05:40 PM
i have written to the company, cross rip outfitters about their guide dave. they have a good reputation so i have been reluctant to name him but i guess since i told the story then, other than just griping, what's the point. my hopes were to encourage a discussion regarding what i believe are excessively high prices for guides on nantucket combined with the inacurate reporting at the time of booking and the final insult of the guide's behavior.

Guernseybass
09-24-2006, 06:06 PM
my hopes were to encourage a discussion regarding what i believe are excessively high prices for guides on nantucket combined with the inacurate reporting at the time of booking and the final insult of the guide's behavior.

unfortunately, my experience of guide companies in Ireland, the UK and the US is pretty much the same when booking, as are their websites - a lot is left unsaid.

i now only go by word of mouth or internet reports filed by anglers ( or if you trust certain captain/guide then fair enough).

mark.

josko
09-24-2006, 08:10 PM
Wow; that seemed a pretty low-life guide. At least you've helped others avoid Cross Rip outfitters in the future.

JimW
09-25-2006, 01:33 PM
I'm heading there Mid Oct. maybe not the best time of year but it's not a fishing trip. On the off chance that the urge hits me to hire a guide you can be sure it's not going to be cross rip outfitters.
Thanks for the heads up.

Cross rip would have been much better off flying you over there and hooking you up with a full day than getting this bad press. Too bad for them I guess.

captjeffrey
09-26-2006, 04:36 PM
While we typically don’t jump in on forums, we find ourselves in an interesting position being at the center of this one. To eliminate any confusion, my wife and I own and operate Cross Rip Outfitters. We are both boat captains, and we strive to provide the best services and products available. That said, we know that not everyone will be 100% satisfied 100% of the time. However we do try to improve and make changes when and if necessary based on customer feedback and response when it is provided to us.

Where to start? Had it not been for numerous concerned clients we would not even know about this post or postings on other sites. Mr. Neal Brown fished on Friday morning September 22nd. He was on island for business and stayed the weekend with his wife. He chose NOT to stop in the store, pick up the phone, or even send an email expressing his displeasure and issues. Instead Mr. Brown sent an alleged letter by mail that as of this afternoon, Tuesday September 26th, has not been received. Mr. Brown did have time to start posts on this site and at least one other as well as reply to numerous comments made by others over the weekend. Individuals have a right to air their grievances, most try to communicate and resolve their grievances prior to using open forums.

Overall Mr. Brown seems to have four main issues with his experience. We would like to try and discuss each briefly.

1. Cost – No matter how you slice it the main issue appears to be cost of charters on Nantucket and how they are disproportionately higher than surrounding areas and for that matter anywhere else. As has been stated by numerous forum responders and if one does some research they will find our prices to be in line with Captains/Guides on the Cape, Vineyard, and North Shore of MA; Long Island NY; and New Jersey to name a few places. Mr. Brown chose to do the trip knowing the price when he booked in late August. Except for the two boats my wife and I run, all the guides/captains we work with are independent contractors. They run their own business and set their own rates. Mr. Brown also makes reference to this being a wade trip and that there was no fuel expense.

“this was not a boat trip. we waded the shoreline. there was no fuel expense”

Mr. Brown was picked up in town for the trip at 5:30am, he was taken to the east side of Great Point, then moved to the west side, then later moved further down the west side, and returned to his hotel after the trip at 10:30am. There was definitely a fuel expense!

2. Tipping – If everyone briefly goes back to Mr. Brown’s original post he states:

” epilogue: when he dropped me off and i paid the fee, and without saying a word other than thank you, he looked at me with those sheepish eyes that ask, "where's my tip"? i looked at him dead in the eye and said, "you were the only person who cought a fish out there today. what no tip?" he looked at me with a puzzled stare and said nothing. he never got it.”

In Mr. Brown’s own words a tip was NEVER asked for, rather an assumption was made by Mr. Brown about tipping.

3. Fishing Reports –Lets start with the fact we post online fishing reports, most of which get posted on Reel Time. When a customer books a charter they are automatically added to our email fishing reports list that are automatically sent when new reports are posted on our site. Mr. Brown booked his trip in late August, around the 29th, hard to compare fishing reports from 8/29 to fishing on 9/22. Those that read and receive our reports would probably agree we try to paint an honest picture. In regards to the enthusiasm Mr. Brown spoke about regarding his last report; it was never stated to Mr. Brown that the fishing was great. The enthusiasm was rather that striped bass, bluefish, albacore and bonito had been caught over the course of that week as evident by the score board in a local tournament

4. Guides fishing – As stated earlier Cross Rip books for numerous guides. They are all independent contractors. We do not dictate how they operate their business. Should a guide or captain choose to fish and the client oppose it, the client should state that and resolve the issue then and there. As a rule I personally don’t fish unless asked. There have been a few exceptions over the years: in an attempt to find fish when things are truly slow or I may cast in a spot trying a specific fly or retrieve to confirm the presence or lack of fish. Again it comes down to communication with your guide/captain when and if it becomes an issue at that moment. A brief aside to this; as most fisherman who chase bonito and albies know they tend to be in schools. While Dave was catching the bonito that Mr. Brown referenced when he said:

“i took my line out of the water while he enjoyed an interesting fight”

Had he continued to fish he may have caught one as well.

We apologize for the length of our response and wish to thank everyone for taking the time to read it. We welcome comments and will respond in as timely a manner as our schedules allow. Again thank you for your time.

Capt. Jeffrey Heyer
Capt. Lynne Heyer
Cross Rip Outfitters, Ltd.

Guernseybass
09-26-2006, 05:41 PM
4. Guides fishing – As stated earlier Cross Rip books for numerous guides. They are all independent contractors. We do not dictate how they operate their business.

but you're quite happy to accept payment for them tho eh ?

your other points are all fair enough, regarding the fishing, costs etc but my personal opinion is that that disclaiming comment is disgraceful.

If clients are booking through you, you should make sure that they are being directed by you towards reliable helpful, guides AND get good service that they pay for and expect.

you just made me note to never use your operation next year in Nantucket. :tsk_tsk:

as i said in my earlier post - go with word of mouth fellas.

Mark.

juro
09-26-2006, 05:43 PM
Thanks for taking the time Jeff and Lynne -

As Forum founder I don't usually jump into the middle of these things either as long as they remain civil; as this thread has.

I think I am not alone in saying I respect your post, it goes a long way to assure that you care about your clientele. Likewise, I think our forum has made crystal clear what people expect from their guides.

Perhaps an additional step you might consider would be to talk to your sub-contractors about client expectations, it might save you a lot of grief down the line, not to mention disappointment for the clients you do care about.

I look forward to stopping in your shop when I am on the island; I am a big believer in outfitters and flyshops over department stores and mail order shops and with very few exceptions vote accordingly with my dollars.

Again thanks and welcome to the forum.

jared
09-26-2006, 08:37 PM
Juro raises an interesting point....expectations and communication....where and when did Mr. Brown have that conversation(s) with his guide that particular morning on Nantucket? As best as I can determine from his post -- it was not before he went, nor during his trip, but rather on a variety of public internet forums after he returned. If I were as unhappy with the experience as he clearly was, why not say so at the time and try to improve the situation?

I have recommended Jeff & Lynne to folks for years, and will continue to do so. I don't know of anyone other than Mr. Brown who has ever had a complaint with them, their shop, or any of the guides that they suggest.

Word of mouth and all fellas...

-Jared

nmbrowncom
09-26-2006, 10:37 PM
first, the "independant contractor"guide works in crossrips' store. second, the 15-20 minute ride from the hotel to the point does not constitute a meaningful fuel expense. third, i took my line out of the water when the guide hookep because, in my experience that is what you when two anglers are in close proximity and one hooks up. forth, i never said that crossrip said the fishing was "great". rather, i was told on the telephone, more than once that albies, bass and blues were being cought regularly from shore and fly fishing was not aproblem. fifth, i do a lot of fishing and hire a lot of guides. i have never heard of a guide rate for wading of $225 other than on nantucket. all of that said, i do regret that i did not speak to the owners directly prior to posting.

Jim Miller
09-27-2006, 08:13 AM
I hire a plumber to fix my leaky faucet.
and he finishes the job.... is paid .... but the faucet still leaks!

I tell the PLUMBER about the problem..... we work it out

I don't cry to his peers, friends, mother.......
I don't slander him ......

We can't do that in our legal system.... Right Counselor?
We can't be having a Monkey Trial.... an old fashion lynching.

I have to wonder...Why has this post shown up all over the FF boards & forums. What benefit is it to the membership?

Sorry you had a bad day OTW..... but I for one am tired of hearing about it.

Please close this Thread

juro
09-27-2006, 08:34 AM
Jimbo,

Let's keep it above board and we won't have to close it.

thanks

jared
09-27-2006, 09:07 AM
I hire a plumber to fix my leaky faucet.
and he finishes the job.... is paid .... but the faucet still leaks!

I tell the PLUMBER about the problem..... we work it out

I don't cry to his peers, friends, mother.......
I don't slander him ......

We can't do that in our legal system.... Right Counselor?
We can't be having a Monkey Trial.... an old fashion lynching.

I have to wonder...Why has this post shown up all over the FF boards & forums. What benefit is it to the membership?

Sorry you had a bad day OTW..... but I for one am tired of hearing about it.

Please close this Thread


Jim is spot on!

juro
09-27-2006, 10:35 AM
Once objectivity is lost the value of the thread spirals into oblivion.

It's not about what we feel like reading or not, it's not about defending friends honor when we question their contractors.

I think the vast majority are in agreement that the guide's actions were unacceptable, and the client has every right to warn fellow anglers. In fact I appreciate it.

I don't blame the outfitter per se, although they would benefit from being more in tune just as Home Depot does from their contractors (or not). Nor do I judge them by the actions of these contractors, I am sure they are wonderful people.

But one thing is clear, unless the guides start to "GUIDE" they are going to get a lot more complaints.

And as far as website politics... I will err on the side of the taken (vs the 'taker') every time you can bet on that.

Jim Miller
09-27-2006, 12:11 PM
Once objectivity is lost the value of the thread spirals into oblivion.

It's not about what we feel like reading or not, it's not about defending friends honor when we question their contractors.

I think the vast majority are in agreement that the guide's actions were unacceptable, and the client has every right to warn fellow anglers. In fact I appreciate it.

I don't blame the outfitter per se, although they would benefit from being more in tune just as Home Depot does from their contractors (or not). Nor do I judge them by the actions of these contractors, I am sure they are wonderful people.

But one thing is clear, unless the guides start to "GUIDE" they are going to get a lot more complaints.

And as far as website politics... I will err on the side of the taken (vs the 'taker') every time you can bet on that.

Thanks for the concise summary :)

I was going to just leave this alone.... but to clarify my post:

I don't have a dog in this fight ..... I have vacationed in ACK for a dozen or so summers and feel I understand the charter/guiding situation on island. I have read Mr. Browns previous posts leading up to this discussion. In fact I responded to his earlier post with directions to one of my favorite places to fish on ACK.

my point is .... why is this drama being played out HERE?

AND ...... what is the benefit to the membership here on FFF?
Are we casting out a menacing societal deviant .... or just discussing a unsuccessful day OTW.

Is the message to be derived that:
A. We should not hire THIS guide.
B. We should not hire CrossRip or their associate guides.
C. We should not hire a guide on ACK.
D. Guides are expensive on ACK.
E. This was just a unpleasant outing for the sport.
F. Maybe guides have bad days also.
G. we are being used a lever .... for other purposes.

It's my impression .... someone wants a refund for perceived bad outing.
That's OK ....go for it! Good Luck to you.

But why tell us about it?

juro
09-27-2006, 12:25 PM
Is the message to be derived that:
A. We should not hire THIS guide.
B. We should not hire CrossRip or their associate guides.
C. We should not hire a guide on ACK.
D. Guides are expensive on ACK.
E. This was just a unpleasant outing for the sport.
F. Maybe guides have bad days also.
G. we are being used a lever .... for other purposes.

It's my impression .... someone wants a refund for perceived bad outing.
That's OK ....go for it! Good Luck to you.

But why tell us about it?

You forgot...

H. None of the above
I. All of the above

:lildevl:

There's a TV show called "buyer beware". Some like it, others hate it. You can always change the channel, there are 126,800 plus posts and counting.

BTW - don't eat the spinach.

JimW
09-27-2006, 12:36 PM
I for one appreciate the heads up on this guide - he was named either here or on RT.
I also appreciate the reply from Cross Rip, makes me feel differently about my initial response.
One thing bothers me in the CR response -

---------------------------------
“i took my line out of the water while he enjoyed an interesting fight”

Had he continued to fish he may have caught one as well.
--------------------------------------

Had the guide been doing his job he would have at least told the client to cast, cast, there they are.

Would I have handled things differently and been a bit more confrontational with the guide - Yeah. But it should have never come to that.



The guides are agents of the booking company and as such you'd think the booking company would provide some sort of customer satisfaction survey, especially with new guides. A few follow up phone calls to clients is all it would take. Who knows, they might even get a higher rate of repeat charters.

On the plumber comparision -
If the plumber didn't do the expected job correctly the first time. You can be sure I'd spread the word to friends and neighbors that they'd do well to steer clear of xyz co..... It's really the same thing posting here, it just reaches more people.

I really wish I was fishing (even with the bad guide) than reading this.

Jim, If you wouldn't mind forwarding those directions to me I'll be over there in a couple of weeks, 1st visit to the island.

JimW
09-27-2006, 12:38 PM
More importantly - Why is there a red dot next to all my posts?

Have I been flagged as a troublemaker?

It was the pink sluggo avatar, I just know it.:chuckle:

Smcdermott
09-27-2006, 12:56 PM
More importantly - Why is there a red dot next to all my posts?

Have I been flagged as a troublemaker?

It was the pink sluggo avatar, I just know it.:chuckle:

Jim,

The red dot indicates that you are currently online but that you have chosen in your user options that that fact be hidden from other users. You will see mostly green dots next to others that are currently online. Only you and the moderators see the red dot. Others see it as gray most likely.

Sean

Adrian
09-27-2006, 01:45 PM
Jim,

The red dot indicates that you are currently online but that you have chosen in your user options that that fact be hidden from other users. You will see mostly green dots next to others that are currently online. Only you and the Moderators see the red dot. Others see it as gray most likely.

Sean

Don't you believe a word of it Jim. Yes, it was the the pink sluggo's in the avatar what did it :lildevl:

juro
09-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Sean -

What does the pink dot mean? :lildevl:

jfbasser
09-27-2006, 02:13 PM
the real issue with nmb's complaint is that nmb's guide was using a pink sluggo :devil:

nmbrowncom
09-28-2006, 06:52 AM
while i think that the criticism of me for not complaining to the company first is warranted, when i first posted i did not include either the guide's name nor whom he worked for. rather i posted the incident. i thought that this is the appropriate place for discussion and debate of this type of thing. there were those who felt that once the story has been told that there is an obligation to name, if for no other reason than to warn other anglers. otherwise, they argue, what's the point? hence, my decision to post the names. while naming names is offensive to some on the board, it is demanded by others. in an industry that is not regulated, and guides do not have to be licensed and do not have to take tests (as they do in other states), perhaps word of mouth and reputation is the only thing the angler has to go on when hiring a guide. in the end,i have been convinced that a forum on angling is the right place to aire out these kind of issues. in my experience the type of experience that i had was are not common. but when they happen they're in the extreme.

Paxton
09-28-2006, 08:36 AM
This thread, along with the series of replies (pro and con), clearly outlines the current sign of the times....if one takes the risk of "doing something" about a situation...50 % of the respondants are supportive and 50% are critical of the person taking a position......if no response was taken to the experience and our fellow FF did or said nothing, then 50% would have been critical of non action and 50% would have never known.
Loose/loose either way.....the only thing clear now a days is that taking any kind of position results in s_ _ _ . So...let's all either put our heads in the beach sand and play it safe or on November 1st choose to make a point and vote on less troubling matters such as illegal immigration, lack of a national health care plan, terroism, the economy, taxes, foreign policy etc.
What unforgiving and judgemental times we live in! Tell me again why there is hope for peace in the Middle East?????? :frown:
Ron

josko
09-28-2006, 08:59 AM
I think this thread serves to point our the overall mess the Cape 'guiding' has evolved into.In boating, at least the USCG regs. provide some sort of a filter; shoreside, there are no standards or regulations whatsoever that I'm aware of. In my area (upper Cape) it is sad to see the medley of characters taking out sports fishing. By and large, people who hire a guide casually, poerhaps through a marina, hotel or restaurant referral, have a mediocre experience at best. The post that started this thread does not describe an unusually poor trip, IMHO, but what is becoming a typical experience. For that, I'm grateful that the issue was raised, and it provides a valuable indication that things are not right in the 'guiding land' on the Cape and islands. There's far too much easy money and no regulation.
I feel bad when I hear of these 'fishing trips', but can do little than to try to steer folks towards guides I think will provide an adequate experience.

The long of it is, I believe some sort of guides' regulation and control is needed Capewide, if not statewide, with enough muscle to mitigate bum trips like the one discussed here.
Perhaps we could look to Maine, or even Bahamas as positive examples of such a body. I think a Maine guide, especially a Maine Master guide, is an individual I'm proud to hire for a day. Similarly, the Bahamas guiding federation is doing a lot to improve guiding standards there. (Please, please, let's not this thread go into the no-DIY fishing thing) We may not always like what they're doing, but they are having an overwhelmingly positive effect on bonefishing in the Bahamas.

So, maybe it's time to ask the question of whether you would support a Mass. guides federation or similar control body, and what can we, as fly fishermen, do to nudge things in that direction?

Adrian
09-28-2006, 09:18 AM
Great points Josko.

I think the idea of a self regulating guides association is a good one. Easy for me to say since I'm not a guide and getting something like this off the ground is a lot of work.

I know a few of the guys in the Bahamian Guides Association. Their group formed in response to a perceived external threat to their livelihood.

I'm not familar with the Maine guides but I do see them at the shows.

juro
09-28-2006, 09:32 AM
Interesting point(s).

Before the MA guides discussion, the conclusion of whether a Bahamas Guides Only policy is doing anything "positive for bonefishing" is purely subjective and worthy of some clarification. I guess if your opinion of bonefishing requires that you spend hundreds of dollars per day and takes away your freedom to explore then I might remotely be able to visualize that... but in my opinion of bonefishing exclusivity simply ruins it.

Back to MA Guides...

Please allow me to look at this from my own perspective as a shore guide on the Cape etc...

First and foremost I didn't know there were a lot of shore guides on the cape. Must be down your way (?) Only a few on Monomoy / Bayside flats and they don't last long if they aren't dialed in out here.

Certified Guide Program - Personally I would be totally in favor of a strict qualification / testing program. I would be proud to work to meet such qualifications and support that type of program wholeheartedly. I think it would help to separate the men from the boys as you say.

However it's a stretch to say that boat owners become good guides when they get their six-packs, it only helps to ensure safety which is not the issue here.

A boat captain's qualifications should be different from a shore guides; and unlike the Maine and NH tests bait fishing should be eliminated from the test if the guide only wants a flyfishing guides license, and vice-versa if the guide wants to show people how to chunk.

Accordingly, a fly guide should be more attractive to flyfishing clientele and vice-versa.

In the end I think the best way to check out a guide is to talk to his clients. Not every trip I've done over the last several years has gone as well as hoped, but many have gone better. I think they would all say they learned a lot even when the fish were off. I hope they would all say I worked my ass off and knew what I was doing. I hope they would acknowledge that the itinerary was safe and well-planned.

I have a confession. My goal is to take top rod on Monomoy on the shore guide circuit by the time I retire.

Will I be?

Who knows but I know one thing - no one will say I caught the fish out from under them :hihi:

sean
09-28-2006, 10:21 AM
I really do not see a guide association happening. There are too few guides to support an organization. No money there for the organizers and the state for sure aint going to do it. Honestly I do not think this situation called for anything but a little common sense.

I have refrained from getting into this but why this happened is pretty cut and dry.

1.Expectations were never set with the guide by Mr. Brown. It is your money and your time. You tell the guide how you want to fish. He really has no say in it. I could book Juro and tell him I want to stand at the rip ryder dropoff ALL day and cast into the channel. He may not like it but it is my money and plus it would be kinda funny :smokin:

This would have been solved if after the guide took his very first cast of the day you just walk over to him and say I would rather you NOT fish. That is it. Things may have been uncomfortable for a few minutes but expectations would have been set. Simple. If he chose to mope around and not be helpful the rest of the trip then he gets no tip. Simple. You never told him could not fish. Set expectations. I am not saying go into a situation with an attitude, just be prepared to voice your concerns with the guide at any time if you are feeling unhappy/uncomfortable with how things are going. Communication is important.

2. Complain directly to the guiding outfit if you were unsatisfied. Do not hide behind website forums to voice your displeasure. It is bush league. Your very first course of action is with the outfit. 9 times out of 10 they will probably take care of the situation for you because unhappy customers is bad for business. Now if you choose to go after them in public forums I would not be surprised if they did anything for you. Now if after you went to them and the situation was still notresolved then go after them on the public forums :)

So next time stick up for yourself. Sounds like a rotten time but it could have been turned around at the very beginning of the trip. People are more than happy to walk all over you if you let them.

-sean

Jim Miller
09-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Josko
You bring up some good points. In thinking about this topic I have a mixed reaction.

I agree that a measure and validation of a guides technical skills is good thing. The basics of first aid training, boat handling, outdoor savvy can be easily tested.

But what sets a good guide apart from the norm is the effort put forth, and the ability to find fish. For me if the guide works hard and finds me fish .... I feel I can take it from there.... and have a good trip. I guess even achieving one of the two, effort or finding fish, will make me very happy w/ the outing.

So how does one measure and validate what a guides effort and "nose" for finding fish is/will be on any given day? We all know guides that put forth a tremendous amount of effort. Word gets around and these guides are always busy.

But how to guarantee/promise to a prospective sport what the guides "effort" will be. How can you test that .... and assure it to a prospective sport?

FWIW: some of the my best guided trips have come on days when few fish were caught ..... but I knew the guide was working very hard for me non the less.

Also.... for myself, if I come away from an outing with some new knowledge... that will make my day. That knowledge may not even be directly fishing related. Could be the identification of a nymph in freshwater.... or new found info about the life of the spiny dogfish!
OR..... maybe jotting down ALL the guides GPS coordinates and hotspots....:tsk_tsk: :D (just kidding)

Paxton
09-28-2006, 02:50 PM
Just a thought.....what if a thread was started in which the topic was: what are my expectations of a guide; what do I wish could be included; when I hired a guide, what did I appreciate that the guide provided (beyond catching fish); if I had a bad experience with a guide...what was it? (no names mentioned, just opinion and facts as previously suggested by some others).
I would assume that many guides read this forum for a variety of purposes and it would be potentially helpful to them.
If not, at least members would wind up with a "guide to guides and guiding" in which they could communicate(in advance)/interview prospective hires for guiding trips. I agree with a previous writer that communications of expectations is the key.
Personnally, I had only one experience with a guide and it was a good one...yes, we caught some fish, but the best thing for me was that he asked me if I wanted to learn how to add 10 to 20 ft to the length of my cast...he gave me an alternative and compensatory way of holding my rod that compensated for the restrictions that my thumb and wrist brace cause on my casting hand....in a 1/2 hr...what a difference! His philosophy appeared to be similar to what I know about Juro's belief system: I papaphrase...no sense only catching fish....learn something related as well.
Ron

josko
09-30-2006, 05:55 AM
What about something like an Orvis endorsement? I never paid that much attention but just noticed that 2 out of the 3 guides I use more or less regularly are Orvis-endorsed. I flipped though their list and was a bit surprised to find that only a half-dozen or so guides inour area are Orvis-endorsed. Is thrat something guides find not worth bothering about, is it hard to get, or is Orvis a pain about it?
On the face of it, it seems like a worthwhile prescreening.

juro
09-30-2006, 06:10 AM
A couple concerns with that are (a) Orvis is a specific brand name and would not endorse someone who is not Orvis in order to manage profit and (b) there is no commonly accepted definition or criteria measuring acumen or even downright fishiness which are traits that many non-Orvis guides possess around the world. Hence the inverse is likely as well.

In the scope of this discussion any brand-specific monniker would be a meaningless credential, meaning no disrespect to the Orvis guides who are on top of their game. Such guides are just damn good guides no matter who endorses them. If anything Orvis is endorsed by them when their guides agree to be labeled.

There is nothing in that endorsement that makes a good guide, a good guide is made when many things come together into one - aptitude, passion, experience, technical skill and a sixth sense. One could argue that the latter is the key ingredient.

Many anglers I know would make great guides, but have no interest in it.

Jim Miller
09-30-2006, 11:40 AM
I have a good friend who has a Orvis shop & is Orvis endorsed for guided trips.
Seems to me the only advantage is the advertising network. The cut Orvis takes for selling and guiding under their trade name seems excessive.

capt_gordon
10-01-2006, 02:55 AM
Any guide with enough money can become Orvis endorsed.
Also guide associations exist as marketing entities for the guides who are members. The best regulators of the guide business are people who fish with them.
And the main thing that drives the price of trips is what everybody else is getting.
I am not surprised that guiding is so expensive on Nantucket, isn't everything? Any person who runs a business must charge the going rate. Charging less than others leaves money on the table, charging more drives business to others.