Matane Report [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Matane Report

09-05-2006, 11:47 AM
I just returned from the Matane River after fishing it last week (8/27 - 9/2 ). The water was quite low upon arrival, and got lower every day while I was there. They were expecting some rain yesterday, but I think they will need days of hard rain to lift the levels to where everyone would be happy.

The pools were quite low, with many fish everywhere. There were some pools where 200 fish were counted by Quebec "Peche" officials last week. This year, over 2300 fish returned so far, and upwards of 700 were captured (almost 30%).

There was no problem finding fish. The problem was taking them. Between the warm water and slow current, catching was a universal problem. In fact the last two days of fishing (last Friday and Saturday), no captures were reported at all.

When I first arrived, I had action every day. Although I would not fish the popular pools, I did manage to get a take each day on the dry fly, although I could not hold on to any of them. All the fish became "unbuttoned" within seconds of hooking them. This was probably due to the warm water and slow currents and the fishes lethargic state.

I did manage to take one salmon on a a small run that is not usually fished, as it only looks good in very very low water.....and is not an official pool. The spot was close to my camp so I may have been the only one fishing it. The fish that were lost were all on drys. As the week went on, it got tougher and tougher. If they do not get a good few days of steady rain, you can call it quites for the year.

But it's still nice to see that the Matane still gets approx 2400 fish. If the water levels were good, the fishing would have been fantastic. But it's still one of the most beautiful and intimate rivers that exist.


09-05-2006, 12:09 PM
Thanks for the report. I leave this afternoon. Staying in Amqui and will fish Matane or Matapedia for a few days before my annual trip to NB (whichever is best). I know they got rain yesterday afternoon and last night. And there's a possibility of some showers on Wed.

09-06-2006, 06:01 AM
Bill -

You are living right my friend!

09-06-2006, 07:35 AM
I dont know if you will be checking your e-mail while your gone but if you are I am leaving Thurs for Grand Cascapedia,Middle Camp.
If your around the area drop in to see me.
It would be nice to see you.

Earle Fletcher
09-06-2006, 08:57 AM
Too bad you had to run into low water, Howie. It's been an odd year for water levels. The Gaspe rivers have been extremely low while the Miramichi and rivers to the west have been quite high.

Of the 700 salmon that have been killed on the Matane this year, do you know how many were "captured" below the fishway dam in the "Snake Pit"?

09-06-2006, 09:28 AM

Couldn't tell you how many were captured below the dam. Actually, I only saw one fisherman fishing "below the bridge" when I was up there in early July. This time, while in Matane, I never noticed anyone fishing there.

Wonder how NB rivers got high while the Gaspe rivers were low. Sounds like some special weather circumstances, perhaps coastal systems that skirted the Gaspe, while soaking the south eastern regions.

I think they had enough rain in the past few days to wake up or move some fish around to where some will turn to taking a fly. This will give the guys up there a chance or two to hook there are many fish in the river.


09-08-2006, 11:54 PM

Sorry to hear the conditions weren't more cooperative. But it was good to hear that the Matane had goodly numbers of fish.


09-09-2006, 07:46 PM
As I mentioned somewhere else (can't remember and I'm on a dreaded dial-up), arrived Restigouche Hotel late Wed. Bought Quebe C&R licenses Thursday morning. Then saw both Matapedia and Matane and immediately changed plans. Later that afternoon arrived New Brunswick and had a grilse as an immediate dance partner. So, I'll have 10 days on NB instead of 7. Had another grilse today, lost a 15 lb salmon yesterday and had another on briefly today. Life is good.
Neil, would love to see you, but can't leave NB now. Another friend arriving tomorrow nite. Hope you have good fishing.

09-10-2006, 08:51 AM
Good that you didn't waste your time in Quebec. The rivers there sound like are in worse than when I left. Nice to hear your quick decision to change plans was rewarded by immediate success. You da'man. Good luck for the rest of the week.


09-17-2006, 08:27 PM
Just back from NB. I understand that Quebec still has even lower water. Sounds really tough. NB had low water, bright sunshine for 10 days (one morning of rain) and was tough, but generous. Fish on everything from size 10 waker to 1/0 leech. Fish to the mid 20s. Here's a pic of a medium sized (17 lb) buck I'm reviving that fell for a dead drift dry.

09-18-2006, 05:47 AM
Has anyone had any luck on the Gaspe, specifically the Matapedia this summer? I spent three days fishing Adams, Hepel, Alice, and Home pool and just watched fish all day. I'm wondering if this is normal?

09-18-2006, 09:14 AM

Salmon fishing is never easy as you probably are starting to learn. One thing is for sure, though, and that is when people continue to kill large numbers of salmon they eliminate taking fish from the river and from the genetic gene pool. The Matapedia, Matane, and Bonaventure are certainly in that category. The Bonaventure finally hit a wall this year and their dismal runs are showing the toll that past practices have inflicted. The Matane, despite a lot of fish being killed, has not shown any effects YET. I do not know much about the Matapedia other than they kill a lot of fish and the guides there are all too eager to whack a salmon for their sports so they can end their day early. We have 2 clients who came in last night from there and were shocked with attidudes encountered on that river from guides and some involved in management. Suffice it to say that was their first and last trip there.

To be sure, there are no secrets or sure fired ways to catch salmon other than to keep casting. However, rivers we have better catch rates on per angling day are Grande and St. Jean (they are C&R rivers; any corrollation here?). I also understand the Petite Cas has higher cacth rates than the average Quebec River. One piece of advice might be to try some of these rivers and support those who oppose killing large, wild salmon.

Just my opinion,


09-18-2006, 10:05 AM

My experience on the Matapedia is exactly opposite to that described by Billg.

I have been fishing the Matapedia since 1987, although I have not been back since the 2003 season. My guides have always been more than willing to fish C&R and have encouraged the purchase of C&R licenses, when they became available. Thus, contrary to Billg's experience, taking the chance of extending the fishing day has not been much of a consideration with the guides with whom I have had personal experience.

As far as catching is concerned, I agree with Billg -- keep your fly in the water. I have had trips where I couldn't raise a fish, and others -- like the one in 2003 -- where I couldn't keep them off my hook. You just have to enjoy the fishing experience and view hooking a fish as a bonus. BTW, it seems you always hook the first fish when you are least expecting it, so stay alert.


09-18-2006, 01:30 PM
The runs on the Matane are VERY healthy and that INCLUDES this year .The #1 problem and that includes ALL of Gaspe has been the friggin lack of rain and the extremely low water. AS CK mentioned (and double check on this year's posts here) some fishing on the Matapedia has ben spectacular.Mario and the crew did the fish count 2 weeks back and immediately bought a pass for the evening.Heppel for some strange reason has been almost a total dud this year.
The Bonaventure ? Check out places where the canoes HAVEN'T been running.
Having said THAT.,remember my post from earlier this year saying it'll all be over by the 3rd week in June ?? The Petite stays sorta OK because of it's cold temps which stay that way all summer ,unlike the tannin stained Matapedia etc .rivers which "collect " the sunlight and tend to heat up. Bright spot in Quebec this year has been the North shore !!

09-18-2006, 05:57 PM
Richard Firth does , IMHO (and a s--tload of other Salmon folk), an excellent job of Managing CGRMP. Funny that your 2 "sports" ran into such an unsundary experience?Would you mind posting ,here, the name of the guide ??

09-18-2006, 11:32 PM

I will ask the clients in the morning who the guides were (there were 4 in the party and they all had the same thing to say. If they are ok with me passing on the names I will send them to you via PM. I must say that these are not the first clients to say the same thing about guides on the Matapedia either this year or in past years. To Charles' point there are good guides who do not share these traits, if you will. To say that all Matapedia guides act this way would certainly be unfair.

Again, I have no personal experience on the Matapedia so I cannot say from first hand knowledge how fishing is or has been. I know a lot of people who fish there (from coming into the shop and to the lodge) and I cannot recall anyone who has said that fishing has been getting better over the past couple of years; rather, the opposite.

I only met Richard once at a Table Saumon and do not know much about him. Fact is, though, killing decent numbers of MSW in any river cannot improve fishing quality. You were right; fishing was tough after the beginning of July on the Gaspe. BUT, even when it was at its toughest in Aug and early Sept, we never had a day without a salmon. Most of the fish during the tough times came on the Grande and St. Jean which are C&R rivers. Going back since 2003 the catch rates on those 2 rivers for us are noticeably higher than the rivers where MSW get whacked. Certainly not scientific but the folks are happy!

For what it is worth, the rain we are getting is helping with the fishing. Two of the clients who came from the Matapedia and never touched a fish in 3 days there landed 4 and lost 1 on the private water of the St. Jean clun today. If only the rain keeps up for another day or two.


09-19-2006, 05:45 PM
I have to agree with Salar-1, the Matapedia fished well for me when I went in late June. 4 days 3 nice fish.

09-28-2006, 01:37 AM
I am just reading what has been posted...

Bill, just for your info, me and my friend had more than 10 fish on line during the last week end. This trip is reported on a french board...with pictures...on the Matapedia, public water! I am sure you had same kind of success with your clients during the same time. But what about august and beginning of september?

Please, stop the **** you are doing! By the time you were doing something bad about his management, the boss of the BEST MANAGED river in north america was in a tragedy!

Bill, everybody will not be a poor people you will be able to buy...

I am poor in english. Bill stop your ****!


09-28-2006, 06:07 AM
I was on the Matapedia just before you and Claude arrived and fished just "upstream "from ya.
Fish earlier in the week were transitioning from #10's and 12s to "late season biggies".Et a tu vu les cormarants ???:mad: :mad: Found out why my favourite pool was so s--ty this year .Squadron of three Otter hold forthe and mom looks quite fat ! . They are sharing the pool with a beaver and a pile of friggin' Cormorants .Cormorants arrived at Adams around 15th of Aug. :mad: Flies used were #10 burnt orange Muddler and LT Special with a spun deer head.
Nice to see were FRESH fish moving upstream .

09-28-2006, 06:36 AM

Not sure what your issue is. In your opinion the Matapedia is well managed despite the continued killing of large numbers of salmon. You kill large salmon so you are happy. Not everyone shares that point of view. I talk to lots of anglers who fish lots of rivers both here at the lodge and at my fly shop. The comments I posted relative to 2 clients from Boston who had a less than deirable experience and will not return to the Matapedia were certainly not the first comments I have heard about that river this year or in the past couple of years.

There are certainly divergent points of view regarding catch and release and you and I do not share the same opinions. Yes, rivers may be healthy and have decent runs but given the decline over the past 2 decades of wild salmon the only thing that we have any control over is whether or not we as anglers remove them from the river to eat or put them back. We choose to do the latter; others choose to take 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 and that is their right and choice.

This board as I understand it is for people to post opinions and ideas for discussion; not everyone has to agree with you.

By the way, you sent me a pm that said "And


If you want to stop my IP on your site, you will have to stop 39 ip's..

Good luck Bill..."

I have no idea what you mean by this and whether this is some type of veiled threat. You must still be upset that you received such a backlash from berating my employees for showing up and casting a vote for their jobs last spring. Count yourself fortunate that you have a decent job and do not have to go and beg publicly for a job which lasts no more than 18 weeks per year. Not everyone has a job where they can spend lots of their work time on the internet.

Here's one for you; next year when you buy your kill license if you send me your 7tags right away I will buy you 7 salmon from Provigo.


09-28-2006, 08:31 AM
One problem with buying 7 Salmon from Provigo. It's likely they're from nets in the estuary one our rivers.Sold here in YUL as "Biological" Atlantic salmon.When you innocently (or not quite so ) ask just what "biological" is the responce is WILD and not farmed !! BTW: Yep ,there Pierre was fishing the Mighty Matapedia during C&R season (Sept 15 to 30th):devil: ;) :razz:
18 weeks salary per year ?????? What happened to the "huge amounts of $$$" you mentioned that you were injecting into the Gaspe economy ??
Speaking of returning fish to the river ! A rule of thumb is ONE MINUTE OF FIGHT PER POUND OF FISH ,and the QUICKLY returning said fish to the river.Sure take a COUPLE of pic's and NOT have the guide insist on taking numerous poses for 'that good quality photo" I'm not that photogenic anyway ,so I've given up yrying for that Hollywood hero shot

09-28-2006, 09:20 AM

Did you also buy the supermarket?????? I am impressed. Don't worry, we still have fine fishmarkets in Montreal, I will be able to supply my table with them.

Regarding the "decent" run on the Matapedia, yes, they have a growing run based on average, since at least 10 years (unfortunately, divergent datas with others in the same watershed). They understood they had to live with people, not only with money...and radically changed the situation of this river since at least 10 years.

And the 52 employees of this river are proud to be there! And I am proud to fish this river, and will fish again this week end, for only 1 day, even if this is the C & R season, and even if I have to drive 7 hours for 1 day of fishing, since the season close saturday night!

But since you seem to be the new hero in Quebec, yesterday, Gildan announced they will close a factory, more than 300 people fired. Asiatic competition , you know...Will you also buy them?

And I imagine that 3 am in Montreal is considered as my work time...


Yes, I have seen cormorans and otters. The fishing condition were radicaly different than couple days before. But many hundreds of fish stocked in the lower part of the Restigouche system were now moving up.


09-28-2006, 09:38 AM
Hey Pierre
Ya going back ????? HMMMMMMMM I'll have to book off sick from that "cushy " job :rolleyes: :razz: Damn !!! decisions, decisions !!! Do I stay at work and post online ? OR ?

09-28-2006, 06:15 PM
In reference to the way things are run at the Matapedia I must stand up for them. They run a classy operation. I have only been there a few times but they were great experiences. My hats off to you gents, thanks for the great memories. I would recommend it to anyone going salmon fishing for the first time. You do need to do something about those black flies, however. :hihi:

As for billg words are cheep and that is all I am reading from you at this time. I was looking through an old issue of the Atlantic Salmon Journal, Autumn 2002 to be exact, and came across a letter to the editor from you entitled “An Embargo on Rivers Where Salmon are Killed”. I was wondering how that “Embargo” was going for you. Have you stuck to your guns billg? Or is this all just words? I know that killing salmon is still allowed on the York and Dartmouth rivers. Don’t you run your business on these rivers? Inquiring minds want to know!

09-28-2006, 08:13 PM
Keep on scrappin Bill!! Someday soon we'll be sayin " I told ya so":tsk_tsk: cause we'll have to scoot down to Maine or jet to Russia for a chance to play a fish!
What do you guys have against a 100% C&R policy???? Jesus,, you guys will bitch about a kill fishery till there isnt anything left to kill:mad:

09-28-2006, 08:22 PM
I will repeat what I wrote when you asked this question a few months ago ( or did you forget); after that letter was written and published the zec extended C&R by 1 week on the York and by 4 weeks on the Dartmouth. This was not everything I was looking for but it was a darn good initiative on the part of the zec and it is better than what had existed before. Now, on the Dartmouth there are 80% less large salmon killed on that river than when kill season opened June 16. Gaspe has it right on this river; they count at midseason and then open it for killing if the spawning requirements are met mid-season. Most other managers wait until after the count (sounds like deer in the headlights and is reactive managment not proactive management).

Pieree; didn't buy the supermarket and am not interested in buying a factory in Montreal. Having retired at the ripe ole age of 35 I have spent the past 4 years building a business I enjoy and have had my hands full. With the new contracts for the next 4 years I am going to sit back and coast; well, maybe I'll buy some more real estate in the US. I can say this, if I did buy another company my employees would not sit around and surf the net on company time. Whether you are in big pharma, oil and gas, retail, or printing; companytime is company time.


09-28-2006, 10:06 PM

I don't believe my company is loosing with me. If you believe it, do what you think you have to do (and you probably did). I know my value, my boss too.

At 22:53 pm, I am in the middle of a company subject, and responding to you. And honnestly, you would hire me if I was not AGAINST some of you vision. Not C and R. Something else.

I begun salmon fishing at 13 years old, on public water, you know that. I was on a river management at 15. I was also president of a river even if I lived at more than 300 km from my river. I also was the first manager to implement C & R on a river, even if the government allowed a quota.

C & R is not a religion. It is a conservative measure.

Now, there is 1 thing I will always fight on: to make sure more young guy like I was at 13 will be able to do what I lived. And the way you handle it is not in accordance with this kind of value.

09-28-2006, 10:21 PM

I am aware of what you have done for the Rimouski River; it like other small (and not "popular" rivers) has a great story to tell. You were certainly an important player; that is sure.

I certainly understand the issues of accessibility in Quebec; especially relating to the pre-zec days. My father bought this place in 1979 at the height of declubbage and the infacny of the zec system. The emotions were high back then; much more so than now.

Things have come a long way since then on salmon rivers. The zec system, while not always perfect, has put control of the rivers in the hands of those who utilize them and in most cases live literally on the banks.

The rods that are negotiated are within the 20%; I have heard no one argue about the merits of the 20%. Quite the contrary, people have been looking for an equitable solution for accessibility WITHIN the 20% as long as there would be little to no impact on the public. WAIT AND SEE WHAT THE DEALS ARE BEFORE JUMPING THE GUN.

At the salmon table there was consensus from all but the GRSQ that there should be some accessibility for outfitters within the 20% AND there should be a 75-25 rule. Many at the table felt that the rods for the outfitters (within the 20%) would have priority in the 25%. That, in my opinion, is good for the 13 year old resident angler as well as the 40 year old resident angler.

There is more (in my case) relative to future local anglers that will also be forthcoming in due time. I feel privliged to be able to own private land (and salmon pools) in Quebec as well as to own an outfitting business that relies heavily on access to public land. Stay tuned for more.


09-28-2006, 11:39 PM
Bill, I take offense to your acusations that people who visit here are ripping off their employers. When you look at some of the post times I have, before the sun rises and long after it sets - these are times when I am working including right now where I am in the middle of a three-way database merge for a major customer while most are asleep. I have hours to go by morning and can't remember the last time I got a full nights sleep.

In fact when I am not here - thats the only time I am not working as I will be far from a computer enjoying some (rare) time on the water. I am not taking breaks nor do I have the luxury to boast of an early retirement while I am here. When things are crunching away on a task I can not interrupt I take a few seconds to see whats up.

Among the very demanding situations I face from work, family, financial burdens, and other stresspoints I also take the time to maintain this site for no pay. It rubs me the wrong way for you to come onto the site feeling entitled to insult people who participate.

What if I were to say to you that you have no clue what it means to earn your pay the hard way? I won't make such claims as I have no idea if it's true or not. Likewise you really have no idea how hard members are working.

09-29-2006, 09:47 AM
I reallyappreciate you posting this.THANK'S !!!

09-29-2006, 09:57 AM
To salmonchaser
Dwayne NO-ONE is scrapping bg for his C%R policy .NO-ONE !!!!!
There are other quite serious issues at hand. Maybe his C& R policy should include his competition ( EI: live and let live) instead of his "Kill off the competition/run over "policy. Some of whom started out with nothing/aren't married into money etc.

09-29-2006, 10:06 AM
I reallyappreciate you posting this.THANK'S !!!

I am not saying we are without faults, I have many - but that just hit me the wrong way.

09-29-2006, 10:13 AM
If anyone is posting here whilst on the job is ,frankly, none of your business.The feudal system is mostly over, thank God. That SHOULD include wealthy landowner/bosses.

09-29-2006, 03:05 PM
Lads, i'll admit that i have no clue as to the beef between the three of you and i don't really need to. I took the thread to be following the killing of large msw salmon and what can/should be done to prevent(ie 100%C&R). I have heard billg fighting these type's of fights in the past and agree with him on his c&r policy. Not sure what to make of the other accusations against him as i have no first hand knowledge. I am first and foremost a catch and release angler and that was the reason for my post. Hope no harm was done to anyone in particular.
Dwayne Miller
aka Salmon Chaser

09-30-2006, 07:31 PM

Thanks for the note; I will keep "scrappin" when it comes to C&R. It is unfortunate that personality conflicts always seem to find their way into discussions and/or debates. If you look at my initial 2 posts you will see that I simply talk about the fact that a lot of large salmon get killed (whacked, removed from the river, call it what you will) on the Matapedia. I also suggested that this cannot be a positive thing (my opinion and likely that of many others on and off this site).

Cleary the fact that one would challenge the notion that there is no harm in continuing to kill large numbers of adult salmon, particularly early in the seaosn when the largest salmon (mostly females) are running is something that I do have an issue with. Waiting to see how many adults are in a river before opening them up to killing large salmon seems logical to me (that is what is NOW done on the Dartmouth after the letter I wrote that Longbelly refered to). Logic (to me) would be to see how many salmon are in (is the river above MINIMUM spawning stocks) before the kill season opens. It seems that if river managers choose to wait they may very well learn (too late) that there were 1) too many killed to be above minimum levels or 2) that there were not enough large salmon that year in the first place to have a kill season.

I have no personal issue with managers of the Matapedia, Matane, or Bonaventure. I simply disagree with their philosophy of when their kill seasons open. They are the managers and have the right to make their own choices. If those choices have no impact on the resource then that is great. If they do then they will certainly have to take corrective measures as was the case on the St. Jean and Grande Rivers.

Bill Greiner

09-30-2006, 08:51 PM
I don't know about the rest of you folks but working or a large telecom we actually have corporate policies about internet usage. Though it's up to the individual and division but posting to recreational sites and even personal email is frowned upon as that goes into the "overhead" bucket. Doesn't matter if I'm up troubleshooting a downed system or meeting a deadline the rules apply and they do sniff the netowrk. Take your risks where you find them, but I don't post anything unless it's on my dime, call it Catholic guilt...though I'm not Catholic.

I also agree with Dwayne that the presonal politics and actual theme of the thread should stay separate. Have a beer first if that doesn't cut into corporate policy ;-)

To get back to hand I've seen some nice fish whacked on the Matapedia and it's well known that if you want to take a fish that's one of the few places left to do it. Now, I don't know what the answer is, maybe a slot limit so the largest of the large can stay in the river, but from what I understand it's not the river it was in the 70's. It'll take a lot to get it back there, C&R being only part of it, but it is one of the things that we as individuals can contribute to the cause.


10-01-2006, 08:01 AM
I took a non-partisan approach while giving the statistics on the numbers of returning fish and "captures" on my original "report". Quite frankly, every time I bought a permit, and learned the stats, I was shocked. Actually that is why I included it in my report. Consistantly throughout the season 30% of the "breeding" population that made it back to the river were now in freezers or just memories of a good dinner. I stated those Matane stats in a totally non-partisan fashion for a reason.

Although it is shocking that sport fisherman are eliminating 1/3 of the potential brood stock, it would be difficult for me to go up to the guy beaching his 20# buck and suggesting he return it for all of us. I would enjoy congradulating him on his trophy, and feel lucky just being a witness. And in those moments I would feel something that would somewhat tame some of my shock of the 30% kill.

Firstly, for me to interfere with "his" moment would be wrong. It is the other guy's fish, his 10,000 casts, and his "reason" being there, not mine. Where is my place here? It's certainly not the place for me to be "political".

Secondly, thinking about rules and restrictions; the ultimate restriction would be not able to lay your claim to what you have hunted, a restriction that could make any hunt artificial, especially as it relates to primal energies. Hopefully river managements can continue to maintain the levels of returning fish without putting too many rules or restrictions, making things too "artificial".

Don't get me wrong. This reply is of non-partisan nature. I was very shocked and concerned to see the percentages of killed fish, and only wonder if proper maintainance is being done to insure things don't have to become to artificial to save any river. It seems that on the Matane, they are maintaining well enough to satisfy the ultimate primal need for the hunt's end result. 2400 fish returning is quite an accomplishment for the Matane and all it's been through from what I know.


10-01-2006, 10:24 AM
You're lucky you only have corporate policies to contend with.Some of us have that ,plus , governing our time at work!
Now back to the fishing part of the thread;) Since stats are being quoted here,lets just take the "in trouble" Matapedia. Fish count of Sept. 07
Matalik -400+ Salmon
Adams -57 Salmon and 240 Seatrout.
Milnikek- 1400 Salmon
*********-121 Salmon
SOOOOO !!,between Metaldick and Milnikek we have 1800 fish .Two pools that between them hold more fish than a number of the Gaspe rivers quoted here.
Anyone who has stood (or tried to ) in the "reverse snowfall "of the early June hatches on the Matapedia can attest to its healthy insect life.

Chris and Bill

Your idea of early season C&R to protect big females is actually a sound idea that has been implemented on a few rivers where necessary. IMHO should be implemented everywhere. That being said, Quebec river Atlantic stocks are incredibly well managed. Gov't biologists have established quite well what Salmon broodstock are needed to sustain runs.

10-01-2006, 10:30 AM
I too have shut my mouth/bit my tongue when witnessing "C&R" practiced, to the detriment of the fish by Hollywood grandstanding for "that special"piccy !!

Green Ghost
10-01-2006, 12:19 PM
My Turn,

Since the topic is now Catch and release, and about the Matepedia and Matane, Looking at the CGRMP web site the faithful fisherman of the Matapedia have been releasing more fish over the last few years. It would be interesting to see all the numbers posted here for say the last ten years. I am certain many more fish were released than in the 70's. Maybe that is why they still have no Problem reaching their spawing escapement. The Fence in Sector 2 of the Causapscal Is also a reason.

On the Matane, I never see a detail on the Spawing escapement number, the mid season or end of the season count or the Number of Large fish released. We only see the number of fish counted at the ladder downtown. What happens to them after they go upstream has not been posted here. Does anyone Know How many MSW fish are registered?? or number of Grilse retained? Or MSW released?? It would be nice if this river would publish thier records also.

I Promote Catch and Release. I have not Killed a Large fish for ten Years (except one that did not survive the battle). I do maintain the right to an occasional Grilse for the table. I routinely fish Rivers where you cannot Kill Large Fish and Enjoy the opportunity to do so.

The rivers of Gaspe have runs less than 1500 fish, That is why they Have C & R Only Dates.

Just Imagine what would happen in the rivers where 3,000 fish run (ie the Matepedia and Matane) if Mandatory Catch and release were in place for even Half of the season??

My guess is in 10 years, Few would bother driving to Gaspe to fight for the chance to fish for 1,500 when the Runs at M&M become DOUBLED to 6,000, even 10,000!!

Just in case anyone isn't paying attention, The Miramichi and the Restigouche are prime examples of what happens in a Prolific River System when personnel self restraint and the Laws are Joined in to a partnership that benefits All Salmon Anglers for the Future.

Just imagine.........:whoa:

My two Cents

10-01-2006, 02:29 PM

I agree with your statement about the resource being well managed. Ditto with respect for the zec system which provides structure to the rivers (whether it is the Matane and everything is "open" or the York where there are limited and unlimited sectors).

I have not taken a salmon or grilse in 10 years, including the occasional bleeder (a personal choice) and while I do not like the idea of large salmon being taken that, too, is a personal choice.

A river may be very healthy (well in excess of its minimum spawning requirements) but that does not mean that proactive measures to maintain AND enhance runs should not be looked at and implemented. If the first 3-4 weeks of the season were C&R as well as the last 4 weeks (assuming that salmon numbers were in excess of minimum spawning requirements) that would seem to me to offer the best of what everyone is looking for in the way of a compromise. There would be less of the early, big fish taken and those who had made it through August would have a "free pass" during the month of September as they await spawning in October.

A man much more worldly and smarter than I once said..."An Atlantic Salmon is too valuable to be caught only once".

Bill Greiner

10-01-2006, 03:14 PM
Just a little note;

About the Matapedia, the last 10 years have seen this river with more than double spawners than 30 years ago. Most of the effect comes from a better control on poaching - blocks with metal rods in the major holding pools to stop netting, closed holding pools with gates and guards, teaching the importance of the river for the cummunauty in school, now, the youngs call and tell a parent poached a salmon, etc..-. But on fishing quality standpoint, sure it may have decreased based on everybody's personnal experience; Anglers have mopre than doubled on this river! And they don't catch double of fish...

About Matane, the number of salmon is higher than in the '60s, and comparable with other years since 1968. On the last 6 years (a cycle)one year at 3500, one at 3000, and 3 or 4 in the 2500 range. This is the range of the Matane. About the fact 30% of the fish were caught this year, more than 75% of these fish were grilses...The usual pattern since more than 40 years is an average of 35% of fish caught. On a river with full limited rod number, this percentage is usualy between 40 to 50%...this is probably why most of these rivers are now C & R!

About the C & R on Matane and Matapedia, it is very hard to know how many are released, since most the fish released in the public water are not registered. Most of the fish reported the Matapedia are by guides on Glenn Emma, and on the Matane, close to nobody releasing a fish register this one. Just for example, just for this week, I know for sure 10 fish released never registered (mines have been).

For 2006, I agree with the fact no river should have been open after mid july for MSW, since the number of 2 years were down from the normal situation, even if the 3 years were numerous, and also agreed for a preventive measure whcih should have been take BEFORE the season, since the grilse run last year was very low, with the forecasted evidence for few 2 years this summer, compromising the 2006 spawn. And I already mentionned this point last winter. Hopefully, the run of BIG salmons was excellent, most of them going up river very fast, on the best spawning areas.

Regarding the hypothesis that we would see more than 6 000 fish on a river where we currently see 3 000 today, the Restigouche watershed is C & R since 1983 on the NB part. These rivers currently have never seen this kind of effect, after more than 20 years....Curiously, the Matapedia currently has the most stable run and one of the best level of spawn of the watershed...

The fact is some rivers are in better shape than never, even if the general situation around the world show an important decrease of MSW.

10-01-2006, 03:17 PM
Fish released on the Matapedia last week

10-03-2006, 02:13 PM

That is one hell of a fish. I am impressed. Nice to back up your beliefs and stories with a picture like this. Looks at least to be in the high twenties if not hitting that magic thirty pound figure. Thanks for sharing it.


10-24-2006, 02:24 PM
A man much more worldly and smarter than I once said..."An Atlantic Salmon is too valuable to be caught only once".

Bill Greiner

You're way too humble Bill, you are the next LW and you should be canonized: St-Bill

Here's a joke for you: Concerning the huge deficit of the USA, a journalist is asking Prez Bush what he should do: "How about selling Canada!":chuckle:


10-24-2006, 04:04 PM
Wow; I am so excited that you think so. I really needed this for my self-esteem. Time to go out and celebrate. Thankfully the interest from my US treasuries (best credit in the world) allows me the luxury to play. You're not a bit jealous about my success now are you mr. poyo. Retirement at 35 was great and now I have all the time in the world to promote my new business and fight for salmon conservation. Keep stirrnin with the black widow.

10-24-2006, 04:57 PM
Who is the 'black widow' Bill?

10-24-2006, 06:12 PM
Lotta class that post and all of it low .bill's remark is referring to Ann Smith. . Someone that Payo hasn't met .
Hey Paul ,c'est vrais, n'est que pas ?? Est que tu ce connais Ann personnellement ?? De mettre BG dans le meme bateau que Lee Wolfe ? J'ai mon cris de voyage !!:hihi:

10-24-2006, 06:34 PM

Careful now; you are making an assumption and are putting words in my mouth.

Don't be so sure that this is a reference to a specific person; you seem to have a habit of jumping to conclusions prematurely and unnecssarily stirring things up yourself. Hint here: a group or mentality.

10-24-2006, 09:05 PM
Bill here is a copy and paste of a post that i am still waiting for a answer

Since you are curently active on this post why dont you take a minute in answering


I am wondering what rivers are you talking about that have dams that are located on the north shore that have depleated the salmon ressources

Can you name some please ? being a North Shore resident it would be interesting to know what your talking about.

How much time have you spent on the North Shore to make such a statement

Here is the list hope you can list to me the ones that have dams that remove access to salmon

Du gouffre
JAcques Cartier
Petit Saguenay
Saint Jean (saguenay)
Sainte MArguerite
Aux Anglais
Aux rocher
Petite Watshishou
Bras D-or
Gros mecantina
Petit mecantina
Ruisseau saumon
Ruisseau belle amour
Vieux Fort
Saint Augustin
Saint Augustain Nord Ouest
Saint Paul

And here are the Anticosti rivers

A l'huile
LA Loutre
Aux Saumon

There are dams on North Shore rivers but thankfully none on the Gaspe rivers. The St. John in NB is a shadow of what it was historically because of dams and habitat degradation

North Shore Rivers are Plentiful and offer some great salmon fishing without the crowds in your neck of the woods


10-24-2006, 09:08 PM

I hope you don't mind if I throw in my 0.02$ on the original subject (C&R). In Iceland, where most of the rivers have practically been overrun by grisle in recent years, the few stocks with good ratios of MSW fish are all in rivers that practice C&R of big fish to some extent. So it DOES work, but I still think other measures are more urgent.
Interestingly, many of the rivers on the Icelandic West Coast where the collapse of the big fish catch has been most severe, are the rivers which received the biggest numbers of escaped farmed fish in the late 80's. Luckily the fish farms went bust in the early 90's, but the damage appears to be there to stay.

Based on these unfortunate developments, I believe that post-season extermination of farmed salmon should be part of any river management program where there is even the slightest chance of farmed salmon showing up. I think there may be an overemphasis on C&R to do the job of protecting the MSW fish, despite the fact that the Quebec rivers are (hopefully) better of than those in Nova Scotia or Norway, where the farmed fish have in some cases ruined everything. Is anyone checking if the Gaspe rivers are receiving late-running farmed fish?

By the way, one other thing to note about C&R. I once saw some research claiming that protecting the large males is even more important than protecting the more numerous large females, since a pair of biggies produces far more MSW descendants than a salmon/grisle pair.

My 0.02$,


10-24-2006, 10:45 PM

Best thing regarding salmon is no-kill; period. I have never heard of salmon spawning while in a freezer (perhaps someone has evidence to the contrary). Short of this, the next best thing is to have no-kill for the first part of the season to allow a decent number of fish to reach catch and release areas. It would also allow an assessment to be done as to how many are in the river before allowing them to get boinked.

Jocelin, I am just returning from watching the world series and have not been on the site for the past few hours. The last time you and I spoke you had said you were going to bid on the Grande River block. The zec told me that no one else bid; do you think they might have thrown it away? They are selling another one if you want to pony up $30K.

I fished on the mighty Moisie and the Nisspissis and on my drive up the lovely north shore noticed many, many dams on rivers. Can't recall the names of the rivers as it was a couple of years ago. Common sense (as well as data from those like the ASF) would indicate that when spawning areas are off limits to anadromous fish (atlantic salmon are anadromous) due to man made obstructions like dams that is not a good thing for the species. The more spawning habitat available, the better. Tributaries and upper stretches of rivers which may be cooler and have less incursion by humans offer better environments for spawning. That is not to say that there are not healthy rivers with dams. A healthy, NATURAL, river is one with no man-made obstructions.

One last question before turning in for the night; I could not find you on the FPQ website. I was under the impression that you were an outfitter on the north shore (perhaps my misunderstanding).


10-24-2006, 10:54 PM
I hope he is not referring to Ann, my friend and a forum sponsor whose presence here and contributions of time and energy I value highly.

Say has anyone heard that she has been strong-armed out of the Marlboro show this year by those sleazy guys who run that? I can't imagine what would drive them to make such a dishonorable decision.

Gaspe Salmon
10-25-2006, 08:54 AM
Hi folks,

In regards to Catch and Release angling here in Quebec I believe that over the next 5-years it will indeed become a reality here in Quebec. Perhaps grilse will be allowed to be retained, however, it is my fervent belief that C&R angling IS the way to move ahead in order to sustain and increase our salmon runs in the future.

I do not, however, agree to putting back injured fish into a healthy population of salmon. This point will need to be addressed in the future, however, I truly feel that the VAST majority of anglers here in Quebec and outside of Quebec will soon be "sold" on the idea of C&R angling.

Once again, people must look back through Quebec's history to understand why we have not adopted it totally yet here on the Gaspe Peninsula. I can say that in terms of awakening, Quebec anglers have been much better at understanding the need for increased C&R than other countries who have, in the past, depleted their salmon and trout stocks. Unfortunately, it is sometimes hard to learn from other people's mistakes.

After being in this business over 20-years, I am very proud that Quebec anglers have shown such a quick understanding of why it is important to release adult fish. There are very few places here in Quebec where an obscene number of fish are killed each year and to harp on the managers of these rivers for not getting on board with C&R is at the very least unfair. Many of them would like to see more C&R angling practiced, however, they are bound by their annual meetings where their members still decide. The only way, IMHO, to get more people on board with this is by example and education.

That is my 2-cents worth for today.

Best to you all,


10-25-2006, 09:00 AM
" Unnecssarily stirring " Nah !! "necessary" yep .ONLY and ONLY to hope that quality Quebec fishing that is available to fisherfolk remains quality Quebec fishing. So "black widow "is a reference to a group or mentality then ?KEWL !!

10-25-2006, 09:06 AM
bill's remark is referring to Ann Smith. . Someone that Payo hasn't met .
Hey Paul ,c'est vrais, n'est que pas ?? Est que tu ce connais Ann personnellement ?? De mettre BG dans le meme bateau que Lee Wolfe ? J'ai mon cris de voyage !!:hihi:

You're right! I never had the pleasure to meet Ann. But just in reading her posts, it tells me that she has a lot of class and respect. Unfortunately, it seems that some people don't think that way.

Bill: nope! I'll never be jealous of someone who thinks $=#1 virtue. Congratulations! You sure know how to make money.

Have a nice day!:)

10-25-2006, 09:09 AM
Your last post is very well put. Nicely said ! I believe (know ? ) it IS moving towards Grilse only tags .

10-25-2006, 09:10 AM
I know I don't post on here that often but I do read the threads. I would be interested to hear just who of you that know Bill personally? I regret that I have not had the opportunity to meet any of you, but I do know Bill. He is a very kind generous gentleman, and in my opinion is not a money hungry iconoclast like you all paint him to be.

Juro, is all of this mud slinging on topic?

10-25-2006, 10:13 AM

Thanks for the response

The rivers on the north Shore that have dams are The Aux Outardes Manicouagan, and Bestiamites and the Magpie

The Outardes and Magpie dams are built above or on an impassable falls so no lost of spawning sections.

The Manicouagan and Bestiamites are a different story * Manicouagan also had an impassible falls for salmon both a dam was constructed lower in the river than this falls and yes their was a depletion in spawning beds

And yes I wanted to bid on the Grande river and was offered this opportunity by a guy who worked for the FAPAQ and was looking into the ZEC draws and was suddenly transferred to Quebec when he knew to much he advise me not to waste my time on that river since you were interested. So we changed are minds and made a wise choice to promote and invest in North Shore rivers. Its a better gamble especially with all the rivalry I have been reading

And no Im not a pourvoirie in the FPQ (neither that I would want to be a member) I am a consultant and referrals service and Guide service that offer various river trips float trips and hunting spike trips also I guide on ZEC rivers and give a big hand in promoting North Shore Rivers. Also I have lots of clients coming from your neck of the woods escaping all the BS and crowds.

My website also clearly states this for your info

Its funny how mush **** is stirred since you been in the salmon world (I am also for catch and release but not up for all the **** stirring)


10-25-2006, 11:06 AM

I appreciate your post. You are right none of these people who take shots know we and none have ever met me (except for Pierre). They have formed opinons based upon a campaign of misinformation and personal attacks.

Most do not know of the financial support to ASF and to FQSA in the past. Most do not know of the countless other things which I have done on a volunteer basis to promote fly fishing and conservation.

Here's one though that might give some insight as to how evil a person I really am.

I got a booking inquiry this season from a guy who wanted a 4 day trip for 4 people. On further discussion it turned out that one of the guys was dying (he had about 4 or 5 weeks to live (after the anticipated fishing trip). One of the other anglers was his 14 year old son. There was a small window of dates that worked for these 4 guys. I moved another group (with 2 weeks notice) to accommodate these guys. They fished 4 days (the father spent no more than 6 hours in total during the 4 days on the river with his son). Even though I had never met them before they arrived in camp this hit home. My oldest son is 13 and their situation could have been mine or anyone else's. After 2 days of no fish and only a brief hookup I pulled the father aside and asked what would be the best thing I could do for them and he responded that he wanted to see his son catch his first Atlantic Salmon. I spoke to the zec and they were gracious enough to give us access to some pretty good water on the St. Jean for day 3. On day 3 I accompmanied guide Tony Patterson with the father and son so that I could assist in any way possible on this their 2nd to last fishing day ever. After helping them across the river; he could not even wade and needed to be taken across in a canoe, we began our day. The son hooked 5 salmon and landed 3 that day. The father hooked and lost 1. The next and final day the father landed a nice salmon and that is how their trip ended. How much did this greedy capitalist charge the father and son? NOT A DIME. To put together this trip for them was important. To charge them for it was not right in my opinion. I was more than happy to absorb the costs to give them this last chance to fish together and spend this type of quality time together while they still could. Was I/Am I looking for an 'atta boy or a pat on the back? Nope. It simply illustrates what my friends, family, and clients know about me; there is more to life than money.

Bill Greiner

10-25-2006, 12:35 PM
I don't have a problem with the good things you, I or anyone does. Nothing but respect in fact. Why spoil them with not-so-good acts?

It's quite simple - lay off the insults to our kind sponsor and I won't have to ask such questions in the future.

I don't need any more aggravation than I already have in keeping this site up and running... I don't do it for money, so don't spoil the passion.

Carry on; great discussion otherwise.

10-25-2006, 04:31 PM

I share your doubts about the reproduction ability of frozen salmon. Have I killed all the MSW fish I have caught? Yes. Would I convert to C&R if I have faith in the overall river management? Yes. Do I think C&R should be mandatory? No.

People who love salmon fishing do so for a variety of reasons, and there are conservation methods available to accommodate those who see killing as an essential part of the sport. Here are 3 examples, all of which require hard work and money which the “killing camp” can and should be willing to pay for:

a- Collection of eggs from rod-caught big fish, which are put in the river the next spring as fry to compete for food and shelter with their brethren. This will make sure that the most aggressive and trigger-happy fish keep their rightful place in the gene pool.

b- Removal of grisle from the best spawning grounds after the fishing season, giving the big fish an advantage to make up for its higher angling mortality.

c- “Headwater Advantage” – Use of natural or man-made selective barriers to give big fish exclusive access to the upper portions of the rivers.

These methods will work in many places, but I do admit there are cases where the juvenile salmon is fighting a tough battle with other species for its territory, and across the board C&R of salmon is a must. The entire US east coast is one example.

And Bill, one more thing. I just put all my “chips” in the Nov. 1st ZEC Gaspe lottery on the St. Jean, so hopefully I will be firmly on your side of the debate a year from now…



10-25-2006, 06:30 PM
I hope he is not referring to Ann, my friend and a forum sponsor whose presence here and contributions of time and energy I value highly.

Say has anyone heard that she has been strong-armed out of the Marlboro show this year by those sleazy guys who run that? I can't imagine what would drive them to make such a dishonorable decision.

I've been strong armed out at all of the flyfishing shows...Some I have been doing for 7 years...
Reason: The answer I got was: "no particular reason". :confused:
"$$$$" :tsk_tsk:

Guess who's going and who's not going?

Black Widow!! ( yes, it is me.... ( not the first time )

(Raising 2 kids and running a small business alone and I'm doing just great..

That was not necessary... (really now)
Just got back from Jasper this evening, to read this posting.....
(I'll check my pics for awhile)


Poyo (Paul) I have no clue who you are. Thanks for the kind words..... maybe we'll meet on a river someday!! :)

10-25-2006, 06:45 PM
Does that include Somerset?? I'd miss not seeing you!
(other) Bill

10-25-2006, 06:47 PM
Hi (other) Bill,
Yup!!! Somerset and all.


10-27-2006, 08:26 AM

Hope to meet you too on a river or somewhere else!