Terminal knot (straight eye SW flies) [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Terminal knot (straight eye SW flies)


juro
07-19-2006, 01:59 PM
What knot do you use?

jfbasser
07-19-2006, 02:04 PM
Palomar for smaller flies and lighter tippets. Clinch for 20# tippet and up.......I have an aversion to tying loop knots from tying too many in the old Rapala days before they invented split rings:cool:

Dble Haul
07-19-2006, 02:11 PM
I use the palomar for smaller flies, but prefer the non-slip loop knot for medium and large flies because of the freedom of movement that it provides.

I've had too many failures with clinch knots, both improved and the original.

BigDave
07-19-2006, 02:24 PM
No slip loop for everything but trout (trilene knot)

Smcdermott
07-19-2006, 03:28 PM
I think it depends on what you want the fly to do. For instance, on a neutral buoyancy silverside pattern I would go with the clinch knot so that the fly would track straight throw the water like the natural tends to. For a clouser or or any fly I want to get down or have extended motion the non-slip loop. One knot is like having one fly or one rod or....well you get the point.

Sean

FredA
07-19-2006, 03:36 PM
Palomar or improved clinch.

flydoc
07-19-2006, 05:05 PM
I didn't see square knot on the list:lildevl:
Flydoc

jimS
07-19-2006, 05:59 PM
There are a lot of options out there. My "go to" knot is the non-slip mono (Kreh loop) for it's freedom of movement. When targeting big fish I like the double strength in the eye of the palomar. When a blitz is going on, my knot of choice is the Davy knot. It is 100% and quick to tie. Unless the clinch knot is seven turns, it is crap. Don't try that with 20lb tippet unless you wear gloves.

If you are using a mono/fluoro bite tippet, then the Homer-Rhodes Improved for a loop is my preference. Big flies and big fish, e.g. tarpon, you might want to snell it.

With wire, you can use a figure eight or the Davy knot.

juro
07-19-2006, 11:56 PM
Well so far I'd conclude that...

(1) The clinch has lost popularity over the years due to poor performance. It was by far the most popular knot a while ago, and one extra tag-thru (improved) doesn't solve the weakness issues despite it being easy to tie.

(2) The non-slip loop is quite popular, probably because anglers are always looking for extra action

(3) Palomar seems to be considered the superior light tippet knot, most likely because of high strength

... and polls don't reflect much unless you read the posts! :p

I have found the trilene knot (a double-thru then clinch) to be very strong but if I am going to tie that I tie a palomar instead.

Recently Brian Chou, a Yakima R. guide from Seattle, showed me the use of the perfection loop to tie a non-slip loop (otherwise known as the "baja" knot). I've been playing with this and like it for larger tippet sizes in those cases where I want a loop because the knot is so compact.

My experience, anecdotally speaking, has been that the loop knot fails on the single strand loop and knot the knot itself so I would imagine the strength of the knot verses the more common non-slip loop is fine with big tippets (remembering we are talking stripers here).

I rarely use anything but a palomar from trout tippets to tarpon, opting for quick and easy strength and put the action in the fly not the knot but tha being said I like to experiment. Not sure if I am catching any more fish but knots are interesting!

juro
07-20-2006, 01:54 AM
Hmmm... insomnia, just took this test:


Use 8# test or something because the point is to break the line to test strength, not to give ourselves a hernia. My test was done with 8# maxima.

Tie a non-slip loop on one end of a piece of line, then a perfection on the other end, big enough to put a pen through. Put two pens in each and pull apart until one breaks. Sample at least 3 times or more. Which one breaks?

Slip-loop vs. non-slip loop?

Then substitute one end with a surgeon's loop. Now which one breaks?

-- next: loop vs. non-loop --

The only way to test loop against non-loop knots is with flies, so get two same flies and tie a loop knot on one fly and a single strand non-loop like a clinch or uni on the other. Put the pens on the bends of the hooks and (carefully) pull to breakpoint. Which breaks?

Now tie a double-strand non-slip knot like a palomar or trilene on one fly and the non-slip loop on the other fly. Put the bends on the pens and break. Which breaks?

-- effect on fish --

The other coefficient is effect on fish. I guess we could measure success of two anglers using the same fly side by side, striper situations (rips, flats, estuaries, night, surf, etc) one looping the other not - allowing the loop angler to choose the fly believed to be the most advantageous design for use with a loop.

My guess... effect on fish catching is little, strength difference is concrete.

IMHO loop knots catch fishermen not fish.

Greg Pavlov
07-20-2006, 03:34 AM
I rarely use anything but a palomar from trout tippets to tarpon, opting for quick and easy strength and put the action in the fly not the knot but tha being said I like to experiment. Not sure if I am catching any more fish but knots are interesting!

I have some doubts about loops but tie them anyway in calm water. I think
that they're a waste of time in rougher water, especially surf. Otherwise, I
use the palomar almost all of the time, the exception being when my fingers (and
brain) are getting stiff after n hours out and I'm trying to tie on a long(ish) fly.
Then it's the trilene which, while more complicated, sometimes seems to become
easier than the palomar. It's hard to explain why. But the trilene *is* a very
solid knot, pretty much on par with the palomar, I think, and stronger than the
clinch, etc.

Bigcat
07-20-2006, 05:38 AM
Clinch knot for mono 50-80 when I tie up leaders for cod fishing.

Palomar for tying plugs direct to the line.

Non-slip loop for my flys, easy and fast to tie in the dark, and it has never failed from trout to tuna:D

jamie
07-20-2006, 06:54 AM
Interesting test Juro.

I tend to use a perfection loop for tying on flies. Small knot and lays straight.

BigDave
07-20-2006, 09:09 AM
About loop knots: they are not all the same. Yes perfection loops are weak (convenient, however) but the no-slip loop tests damn close to 100%. It is quite highly regarded by big game anglers worldwide. In fact, now that I think about it I don't think I have ever broken one. The tippet knot, a blood knot in the leader, or the hook almost always breaks first!

I used to be an "improved" clinch fan but it's too easy to burn the mono when you clinch it down. This has led to a few lost fish for me. Choice of terminal knots is all about personal confidence. It doesn't matter which one is scientifically superior when it's time to rip lips.

juro
07-20-2006, 09:44 AM
About loop knots: they are not all the same. Yes perfection loops are weak (convenient, however) but the no-slip loop tests damn close to 100%. It is quite highly regarded by big game anglers worldwide. In fact, now that I think about it I don't think I have ever broken one. The tippet knot, a blood knot in the leader, or the hook almost always breaks first!

I used to be an "improved" clinch fan but it's too easy to burn the mono when you clinch it down. This has led to a few lost fish for me. Choice of terminal knots is all about personal confidence. It doesn't matter which one is scientifically superior when it's time to rip lips.

Great points especially the one about confidence. I don't seem to lose any confidence when I fish without a loop as long as the fish keep hitting it whereas others might cite the knot as the reason they are not getting fish, or give credit to it for success.

However I think a surgeon's knot to tippet would never break before the loop knot, and I can give that a quick test tonight. Surgeon's knots are extremely strong, much stronger than a loop. A blood knot probably would give before a loop knot unless there are snags involved (will try it).

Another point about big game fishermen - they are prone to the most extravagantly protracted knots known to man which I can't say for sure is due to need or because they are big game fishermen with a lot of spare time between runs. Probably a mixture of both proven need and shack nasty science. I had a bit of that last night with those break tests. :hihi:

I am not qualified to say, just guessing.

rogerstg
07-20-2006, 09:45 AM
Direct connections to flies: Orvis knot. Tests at 100%, small, fast, does not use much tippet. Also, you can feel the knot properly set when tightening (useful when you're over 40 and your arms start getting too short to see well)

Loop connection - class tippet to fly: modified non slip loop (skip the step of passing tag through the overhand the first time). Fast to tie, uses little tippet, over 95-100% for both flouro and mono

Loop connection - bite tippet: normally a perfection, but often the above mentioned loop with only 2 turns around the standing line. Either is only about 70% but it doesn't matter in this case.

My thoughts on some other knots:

Palomar - good knot, I use it when tying on bait hooks in the dark. Uses too much tippet for flies.

Any form of clinch knot: too big for my tastes.

Davy's knot: Quick and easy, but fickle regarding the hook wire size to tippet diameter ratio. IOW it's a poor knot for tying big hooks to light leaders. Otherwise it's great, but it's very similar to the Orvis knot that I use, which is not as fickle.

Uni knot: only about 70% with Flourocarbon and slightly more with mono.

BigDave
07-20-2006, 09:47 AM
"shack nasty science"...I love it!

When you test that surgeons make sure you are tying floro to mono. You'll see what I mean :lildevl:

jfbasser
07-20-2006, 10:27 AM
Well so far I'd conclude that...

(1) The clinch has lost popularity over the years due to poor performance. It was by far the most popular knot a while ago, and one extra tag-thru (improved) doesn't solve the weakness issues despite it being easy to tie.

(2) The non-slip loop is quite popular, probably because anglers are always looking for extra action




I think the responses correlate with age of the responder or possibly the other than FF background of some and the desire for action for others.

JimW
07-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Uni - it works and I can tie it without even looking. I'll use a loop on rare occasions for more action but have had some failures so I tend to stay away from the loops.

juro
07-24-2006, 08:39 AM
The number of striper anglers using the nonslip loop speaks for itself. People want more action even if it means compromising strength.

Although the palomar is mentioned as the go-to knot for strength (i.e. "when using light tippets" etc) throughout but only two votes. I interpret this as saying "it's not my main knot" but I believe people "resort" to it when the going gets tough.

So I ran a quick sampling over the weekend using the non-slip loop. The sampling was done with 40+ schoolies, three keepers and 4 blues over 6 hours of fishing. Yes it was pretty good out there :cool:

Conclusion: I will not use it for anything less than 20# test, or if so I will re-tie it after every few schoolies. On second thought, scratch that second condition I just can't be bothered with that. It is by far a weaker knot than the palomar not only by tensile strength but by structural integrity after usual and customary stress...

ACTION:

Yes it certainly does lend itself to increased action on the fly in terms of vertical motion on weighted flies and possibly (although untested) lateral on other designs. I can't deny that.

However unless fishing in deeper water or from a boat jigginess is a non-issue. Most of the fish I cast to barely had their backs covered with water so I had no need to use it, and I broke off two fish (one being the best of the weekend) on the loop knot on 15# flouro.

When I switched back to the palomar I had no less enthusiasm from the fish in fact over 60% were hooked and landed on palomar knots which were never re-tied except after a blue.

KEY PROBLEM:

When the action is hot and heavy while wading especially you need to bring the fish to hand and release it while standing in the water. As the fish (majority of schoolies were 23-26") come to hand they thrash about until you can get the thumb in position. At this point the rod is not engaged to offer the flexible shock absorber. You must grab the line or the fish to unhook it, the rod will not hold the fish in place.

If you tire the fish out too much during the fight you hurt the fish, so I crank them in aggressively and they take off like a rocket with much energy to spare which makes me feel good. But while they are thrashing the knot takes an incredible amount of strain and it's only a matter of time before that non-slip loop knot breaks down to the stresses. Most likely it will be when your best fish is on, like me.

The knot's function is more than just tensile strength in lab testing, it is a critical part of the linkage from cast to landing the fish. Applied stresses must include the practice of wading and releasing fish in between keepers as the ratio of legal fish to shorts is unfortunately pretty high. Many are close but no cigar, however it wastes a lot of time to try to beach every fish you hook to preserve the integrity of the knot.

I absolutely found that the weakness of the non-slip knot reveals itself when the thrashing of fish while removing the hook, and got a very strong sense of De Ja Vu' as this is something that drove me away from the knot years ago, I just didn't remember the reason until it happened again twice over the weekend. My blood knots held fine in fact they are still there from many consecutive outings and the only time I even notice them is when a weed sticks to one.

So thus I felt compelled to mention the scenario as it came back to me clearly, and I won't forget again.

So boys, you can have your loop knots! ;) ;) I will still use them with 20# test or higher when I feel the design of the fly itself does not supply enough action.

The plug guys put a metal ring on the lure then tie a strong knot to that. Maybe there's an opportunity there for tying in or crimping on a ring on a straight fly eye. For me using the line to create this freedom is not worth the price.

CONCLUSION:

I won't be using a loop while wading unless the conditions allow 20# or higher, even then I probably will do it only as a novelty unless I discover some other factor that is a more distinct advantage like maybe some surface fly with a "zara spook" action which I would die for. Not too likely at this point but the door will be kept open.

Your results may vary

.02

FishHawk
07-26-2006, 07:47 AM
One fact that is missing from your discussion is what brand of material are people using. This is a critical factor . I watched the Frog Hair demo at Marlboro and using the same knot their material did not break while knots tied with different brands did. Perhaps you are using a material that is not as strong as Frog Hair for example. Just my .02 FishHawk

juro
07-26-2006, 10:05 AM
I think you're right, it's got to be a factor Fishhawk. JFBasser made the same point in another thread.

However the same line with a different knot does stand up to all day use, so one might equally surmise that the durable knot would be correspondingly stronger on a better material.