Gaspe ZEC's closed [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Gaspe ZEC's closed


Salar-1
05-06-2006, 10:16 AM
As of yesterday the Grand Gaspe, Bonaventure and Petite Cascapedia ZECs are closed pending an agreement on the added outfitter rods. Since the Qc. gov't doesn't wish to listen to the will of Quebecers this might take quite a while.

billg
05-06-2006, 11:27 AM
For those who are heading to the Gaspe there is nothing to be concerned about relative to the 3 zecs closing their doors. The rivers will open in a few weeks and it will be business as usual in terms of passes, etc.

The zecs have been threatening to "turn in their keys" to the rivers for a few months and while it is a bit suprising it was not unexpected.

I have heard that the 3 zec presidents are to meet this weekend (today) with the Minister and this whole issue should be resolved once and for all in a couple of days. Whether or not the board of directors or the general managers remain the same or they are steadfast in their position to walk away is not going to effect the fishing season. If the government needs to manage the rivers for all or part of the season I am sure they will do so.

The rivers are intended to be accessible for Quebec Anglers, first and foremost, and then for commercial exploitation by all anglers. I am extremely confident that this will be the case in a couple of weeks. The bottom line is that the rivers (the public portions) are the property of Quebec and the Government delagated authority to local groups to manage the rivers. Ultimately the management and authority relative to the rivers rests with the Government.

I am sure that there will be more news in the next 72 hours and then everyone will know what to expect beginning June 1.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

Salar-1
05-06-2006, 07:01 PM
They actually met this A.M. and corbeil will make his decision known on the 9th May.

billg
05-06-2006, 07:19 PM
I read that on the Radio Canada website a short while ago. It is hard to say what will happen on May 9th but the important thing is that, no matter what happens, resident and non-resident anglers will not have to worry about the waters they have reserved and the trips they have planned. It will be business as usual on the rivers for all anglers.

Bill

Salar-1
05-09-2006, 10:24 AM
Corbeil's report is in(out?) and 100 pork producers are demonstrating in Notre Dame du lac ! Speaking of pork, John Boorman will be filming a sequel this summer in Gaspe . working title of the film "The Cahulawassee River Rump Roast"

Salar-1
05-11-2006, 09:00 AM
Anyone like to make public the original proposals that the three (two) outfitters made ?

LONGBELLY
05-11-2006, 05:26 PM
I have to disagree with billg on this point. If the outfitters get there way we will have to fish with extra rods in the limited zones. In my book this is somthing "to be concerned about". We enterd the winter draw and paid for the water we won under the idea that we would be fishing with a certain number of rods on these zones. Now that may change because of some greedy scus buckets. I think we should be compensated for this if it happens.

billg
05-11-2006, 05:42 PM
Longbelly:

I presume you did not pay for your rods until sometime AFTER the middle of November which is when the phone calls were made. Between the time of the draw and the time of the phone calls the zec sent letters out to the winners and the letters stated that there could be rods added in sectors 4, 6, and 9 and that the zec was opposed to the Government doing this. They warned about the possibility because they knew rods would be added and that allowed people such as yourself to decide whether or not to pay for your reservations. If you overlooked that or ignored it that is out of anyone's control. Intellectual honesty is something which your post is lacking.

The rods that were imposed were by the Government; we didn't "get our way". The three of us would have prefered good faith negotiations with the zecs but that never happened. Whether you agree with what is going on our not is up to you. If you don't like it you can certainly call up the Ministers office.

I will state again what I have stated before: Access to the salmon rivers of Quebec is prioritized like this
1) First Nations
2) Quebec residents
3) Outfitters with licenses and commercial authorizations issued by the Government of Quebec
4) Guides with commercial authorizations
5) Non-resident anglers

As of now there is no rules requiring non-residents to go through outfitters or guides. That may or may not change. In the meantime, if you don't like where you fit priority-wise then either move to Quebec or go to Nova Scotia for your salmon fishing.

Bill Greiner

LONGBELLY
05-11-2006, 06:30 PM
Oooooouuu - Hit a nerve, did I? :D

billg
05-11-2006, 06:39 PM
Longbelly:

Nope; just keeping things intellectually honest with this topic. There is plenty of mis-information and speculation that is out there right now and I have no problem with people disagreeing with the position of the Government and accessibility for outfitters. I also have no problem if people disagree with the 75-25 rule which is just around the corner as well. People need to be factually informed; simple as that.

Bill Greiner

Salar-1
05-11-2006, 07:46 PM
Bill
There MUST a have been a lot of serious negotiating done because Glen LeGrand mentioned yesterday that the three outfitters had lost a lot in the interim.SOOOOO since there's a lot of "misinformaion" out there and negotiations are now over, may I/we ask what were your original demands/requests ?
BTW IMHO the75/25 thingy IF it's around the corner it's a hell of away down the next road !
Hey Ben, I know the situation IS f%%$$#ing frustating and I am certainly NOT one for PCness , so befoe typing "IN WITH GOOD AIR OUT WITH THE BAD" repeat about 5 or 6 times and THEN start typing :cool:
Cheers

billg
05-11-2006, 08:41 PM
Hi Brian:

I had sent you a private note the other day about the last Table Saumon; did you get it? That was an interesting meeting which I am glad I did not attend.

Let's start with 75-25. For the record, I stand 100% behind it and have said so ever since it was discussed at the 2nd Table Saumon in October 2004. It is unfortunate that it has progressed slower than it should have; I have expressed my feelings about that as well. I am confident that it will be in place over the next few months and the November 1, 2006 draws will abide by it.

Now about the bigger picture. The Government has made it clear time and time again (as have the local leaders; mayors of Gaspe, Perce, and Bonaventure) that outfitters are absolutely necessary for economic development of the region. They (Provincial and Local Governments) cannot afford to lose either the direct jobs we represent, the indirect jobs we represent, or the economic spin-off associated with our businesses.

That said, the draw system which had been in place for many years and had evolved a bit from the first days of the zecs, needed to change. Changing the system meant that rods which outfitters could count on in the past (those which enable us to operate our businesses-- it was done legally and within the system; this has been publicly acknowledged by the Government 2 years ago) would no longer be able to be obtained as had been the case in the past. Consequently, there was a prejudice which resulted from this impending change in the draw regulations.

Originally, we were told we would get X number of rods per day. As time went on the agreed upon position was that the outfitters would only be given the number of rods that had been gotten via the system and that would no longer be able to be obtained when the new regulations were put in place. So, X got cut. What if the rules changed and there was no provision for rods; simple, that amounted to a taking of a business. Compensating 3 outfitters would certainly not break the Government of Quebec; however, replacing the jobs would be difficult, if not impossible in the economically depressed region of the Gaspe.

All along the zecs had been told to negotiate in good faith with the 3 outfitters. They refused. Not one of us ever had a sit down negotiating meeting with any of the zecs, despite consensus at the Table Saumon from the FQSA (Quebec Angler's Association), The Outfitters Association, The Quebec Wild Life Federation, and of course the First Nations to negotiate a solution for the outfitters that also balanced accessibility for everyone. The 20% regulation allows this to happen.

By the time November 2005 came along, the final number of rods to be allocated was determined for the 3 outfitters. I can assure you that the number for the 3 outfitters is not only less than what was originally discussed; the number of rods is less than the actual number of rods that was obtained through the former draw system. This should not be overlooked. When Glen talks about water and wine mixing it is because we would have received more rods in the old system than we would be getting in the future; something that was never on the table. This was utlimately accepted by the outfitters.

Again, the zecs were asked and encouraged to negotiate but they never did. Sure, a proposal was given to me (a non-negotiable proposal) from Gaspe last summer which had rods in early June and then August and September. Cost of the rods: bewteen $250 and $500 each. What sectors? Dartmouth 2 in Sept; York 6 in August; get the idea here; not a negotiation and certainly not good faith.

Where do things stand now? Supposedly the zecs have walked away. But, there were still discussions and "negotiations" going on this afternoon as reported on the radio. The position of the zecs has always been take it or we will go and play in our sand box. Well, maybe not a sand box but the pattern is clear about their intent to negotiate accessibility in the best interest of everyone. They make up their own rules to suit themselves (another topic for another day.... ST Jean Pavillion, White House, etc).

What will happen? We will have to wait and see. The final number of rods will likely not change as the season is a couple of weeks away and the 3 outfitters received official letters in December, 2005 with exact rod totals, sectors, and dates. Trips and packages were sold based upon the good faith of what was put forth from the Government in those 3 letters. That is not to say that the outfitters have not re-looked at things and are not willing to look at certain modifications where possible. We cannot and will not accept anything that would be detrimental to, or jeopardize out businesses. You will have to wait a tad bit longer for specifics.

Long term solution is relatively easy and has NO impact on the public whatsoever. In fact, given the change in the draw MORE water will be available to the public. The 75-25 may impact things for non-residents but, as I stated above, there is a prioritization of who has a "right" to the rivers in Quebec. One last point about the 75-25 is that it should have been part of the regulation change and the accessibility for outfitters and was not. This is a total package/plan that ultimately will see all 3 pieces (maybe a 4th!) put into place.

People may or may not like what is happening in world of salmon in Quebec. Salmon are first and foremost a precious resource. This has been lost in the 2 years of the Table Saumon. The fact that the resource is in decent shape allows for recreational activity and ecomonic development. Without the 3 outfitters none of the 3 zecs could operate in the black. In the old days the Government subsidizede the zecs when they operated in the red. That is not an option anymore. We heard in Gaspe in February that the zec was $10,000 lighter in draw reveunes than last year and that they were contemplating laying off an employee; this was stated by the President at the meeting. That $10,000 was the same amount that I cut back on due to the rule change. Don't think for a minute that the zecs were not aware of how some of the rods were obtained by outfitters. Let's just say that the zecs were "dumb as a fox" when it came to this!

I do not know if I answered your questions Brian, but what I have given is all I can give for now. I am hopeful that more will be announced shortly.

Bill Greiner

Salar89
05-11-2006, 09:22 PM
if you get your rods, will you be fishing them, or will you be doing as you always have,? buying them and not fishing them? For the 2 last seasons you were holding 4 - 6 rods in sectors (all paid) and no one actually fishing. Did the mayors know this?
Will you be dropping them and cutting our chances in the 48hr draws as usual?
while leaving your paid rods (empty?)

Can you confirm to us and the mayors your waters will not go to waste?

vince

Without the 3 outfitters none of the 3 zecs could operate in the black
meaning?

billg
05-11-2006, 09:44 PM
Hello Vince (QS):

Didn't you have a post removed because of your IP address being the same as another useron this board?

Now that you have entered the discussion let me ask you this:

1) Can you guess who would buy up rods and not use them to discourage people from fishing in Gaspe say in 2002 and 2003? By the way, you would be suprised how many days are sold in Gaspe every year to young anglers (under 18) for half price and the young anglers never show up. Talk about cheating a system.

2) Can you guess who thinks it is neat to park cars on the road by pools to discourage anglers from going to the pools so as to keep them for later in the day?

3) Right now Malbaie River Outfitters, Auberge Saumonier, The St. Jean Salmon Fishing Club, and Pourvoirie Beausejour hold Outfitting licenses from the Government of Quebec to operate on the York, Dartmouth, and St. Jean Rivers. Do YOU support additional outfitter(s) on these 3 rivers so that there might be even more anglers than the past couple of years?

I was expecting a s*$# stirring like this; one likes to play in s*$# when one lives in s*$# all of the time!

Have a nice day and see you soon!

Bill Greiner

LONGBELLY
05-12-2006, 07:40 AM
Mr. Griner,

That is quite the attitude you have. If I was looking for an outfitter to use (and I am) you would have soured me on the idea. I express a simple opinion and you tell me if I donít like it, donít come to Quebec? Is that helping there economy? I donít think so.

And unlike you I am not a long winded politician so that is all I have to say on the subject.

Salar-1
05-12-2006, 09:26 AM
Bill
Reference #1
If only a couple of young anglers under 18yrs gets to fish for Atlantics this IS A GOOD THING !!!!!
RE: 2 Been there done that :smokin:
RE #3 There's room for any amount of outfitters /guiding services on the rivers,AS LONG AS THE PAST RULES APPLY. A fact that the other mentioned outfitters (as well as on the other rivers) are perfectly content to live with.
PS : No haven't rec'd any recent emails/PM's from you

Your quote
1) Can you guess who would buy up rods and not use them to discourage people from fishing in Gaspe say in 2002 and 2003? By the way, you would be suprised how many days are sold in Gaspe every year to young anglers (under 18) for half price and the young anglers never show up. Talk about cheating a system.

2) Can you guess who thinks it is neat to park cars on the road by pools to discourage anglers from going to the pools so as to keep them for later in the day?

3) Right now Malbaie River Outfitters, Auberge Saumonier, The St. Jean Salmon Fishing Club, and Pourvoirie Beausejour hold Outfitting licenses from the Government of Quebec to operate on the York, Dartmouth, and St. Jean Rivers. Do YOU support additional outfitter(s) on these 3 rivers so that there might be even more anglers than the past couple of years?

I was expecting a s*$# stirring like this; one likes to play in s*$# when one lives in s*$# all of the time!

Have a nice day and see you soon!

Bill Greiner[/QUOTE]

salar 56
05-12-2006, 12:04 PM
Mr. Greiner:

I am sorry, but I don't believe that a salmon angler because they can afford to use your outfitting business should have an unfair advantage in acquiring draw water. The whole idea of the ZEC system was so that the rivers would be accessible to the public, wealthy or not. Your outfitting business is largely responsible for the collapse of the old ZEC system and although doing nothing illegal, your abuse (finanically) of the system that was never intended to be used such as you did while doing business. Also, it's because of your abuse of the system that so much tension was created amongst residents toward non-resident anglers. Before you started your business I believe the percentage of resident to non-resident anglers was at an acceptable level. I also believe that with proper promotion and management, like any business, the ZECs would not have to rely on any single business such as yours to be successful. If someone chooses to use your services, it should be for comfortable lodging and the expertise of your guides, but when it comes securing rods in limited sectors they should have to use the same system that everyone else has to. I am hoping now that the primary rod winner has to be present in order for the second rod to be issued will help a great deal with some of the abuses that took place in the past.

As for the economic value of the salmon fishery, I am sure the small number of seasonal employees you have are very grateful for their jobs, but looking at the bigger picture if the do it yourself salmon anglers start to feel that they're not being treated fairly start looking to other areas (Nova Scotia) for their salmon fishing what will that do to the local town's economy, i.e., hotels, motels, restaurants, etc.

Lastly, over the years you have taken many opportunities to show your support for the resource and the economy as it relates to the salmon fishery, but it wasn't too many years ago that in a letter to the ASF Journal, you made a bold statement on how none of your angling dollars would be spent with any river that still promoted the killing of adult salmon, yet the following year you started your outfitters business and became the Gaspe ZEC's largest customer. My point here is are you really concerned about the resource or is it merely, self-promotion?

Jim

PS: I agree with Longbelly as for your attitude! Do not for a minute try to deflect from the real issue. All the concerns in this post and others like it are very real and to try to make readers believe that they are misinformed is wrong. All the statements that are made are indeed fact and cannot be denied.

wilson
05-13-2006, 12:31 AM
There's no good that can come from this thread folks.

First, the Government of Quebec has to sort this out and they have to take into account every stakeholder that Bill mentioned. I'm sure the original ZEC charter was to level the field for access. But times have changed, and if everyone headed to the river and caught fish, ate good food, and slept on clean sheets in Gaspe then Bill and the others would never have provided the services they have. The reality is that the outfitters who took the risk to buy land, hire employees, and tour the various shows during the winter have to mitigate some of that risk of investment. I honestly don't know a business person who would willingly burn rods to keep people off the river, but I think it's safe to say that if rods were bought and not used that daily money didn't beneft any outfitter anywhere and it was the outfitter that lost money and the ZEC who benefited.

Second, every post on this thread has taken into account his/her (very selfish I might add) access to the water. My concern is more for the fish and not that when I look downriver no other anglers are around. Before you start posting about me, myself, and I think about the resource. If the PQ biologists say the resource will support 2 more rods then that's it, 2 more rods are in.

Question is do they become available on a market that already has everyone including outfitters competing to purchase them or do they go to an outfitter who assumes the risk to sell them. Keep in mind, and correct me if I'm completely wrong, but these rods we're talking about are not FREE. Nothing in this world is, so I'm sure the outfitters are paying somewhere within reasonable market value for these rods which in turn goes back to funding services for the resource (please plant some trees upriver ZEC folks).

If you don't believe that's right then head off to Halifax and have a great time. Doesn't seem like you care much more than having an unobstructed view to the pool you so dearly paid for. I hear Newfoundland is sparsely populated, give that a try.

-Chris

txraddoc
05-13-2006, 09:08 AM
I was supposed to fish 4 days last year on Petite Casc., in early July, but at last minute had back surgery. I live in US and had booked through an outfitter. People from far away sometimes purchase water to only lose out ( I lost my half deposit on the lodge also) and thus not fish. I know a friend of mine who the same thing happened 2 years ago. I know I'm the lowest priority to fish your water, but I sure enjoy being at the end of the list and getting my shot at a Gaspe beauty.

Anyway, off to Kola for 2 weeks in early June.

Tight Lines,

Jim Y.

Salar-1
05-13-2006, 09:53 AM
Jim
You certainly are NOT the lowest priority on Qc. rivers.We're all equal.
I lost out 15 yrs ago to the tune of a whole summers worth, due to a rather wild car accident. 15 months of physiotheropy later, returned to Gaspe with a vengence. You got me to thinking , cancelling out due to a good reason as yours would/should be a policy for a refund ,at least for the passes with the ZEC.I'm going to propose it to them for their next GM. Did you ask the outfitter what he DID do with your fishing passes ?:whoa:
Cheers

juro
05-13-2006, 10:08 AM
Jim -

Sad to hear about that - in the future, always post here and you will have a good chance of getting someone to go in your stead in exchange for some or all of your investment (if that is allowable by regulations).

I was supposed to fish 4 days last year on Petite Casc., in early July, but at last minute had back surgery. I live in US and had booked through an outfitter. People from far away sometimes purchase water to only lose out ( I lost my half deposit on the lodge also) and thus not fish. I know a friend of mine who the same thing happened 2 years ago. I know I'm the lowest priority to fish your water, but I sure enjoy being at the end of the list and getting my shot at a Gaspe beauty.

Anyway, off to Kola for 2 weeks in early June.

Tight Lines,

Jim Y.

txraddoc
05-13-2006, 05:30 PM
I had my surgery, thought I could still make the trip, had my wife come with me to the airport, checked my bags, but then backed out leaving the outfitter in a lurch. Try to get your bags back from being checked international as a solitary male in the US. That was a chore.

I think that if someone does not claim the beat, it should be offered up at a discount. Gov't agencies are difficult to manage. Example, I donated blood for my own surgery if neede. I did not need it, so I said let it go in the general supply to help whoever needed it. NO, they said it can only go to who it is assigned. I think that this may have a similar fate as the fishing beats that go unused.

Lets get at those early fish!

Screeming Reels,

Jim Y

salar 56
05-13-2006, 09:23 PM
Chris:

First, I disagree that no good can come from this discussion. Greed has alot to do with the current situation, but I don't believe it is on the part of the regular salmon angler. Putting $10,000 of draw cards (and that's only what's admitted to) into the pre-season lottery is more than just a little excessive. What does this do to the person who may only put in say $50.00 worth of draw cards, you don't have to be a genius to figure out what the odds are. One example, last year on the St. Jean, more than 50% of the names that came out in the pre-season draws were that on so called customers of an outfitter.

As for burning rods that were paid for, believe it. This, in fact does happen. You can check last years records yourself. The records are public information. Chris, you are correct and those wasted rods were paid for. But in wasting these rods you're directly denying access for the angler that otherwise would have liked the opportunity to fish in a limited sector. You asked why would a businessman conduct business this way, simple, because he can! I think the key word here is smart businessman. Could it be that you take a loss over the first few years in order to discourage the competition whether it be direct or indirect. Over a period of time if you discourage enough salmon anglers and they start looking elsewhere things become much easier to do business. To borrow a quote used in an earlier thread "stupid like a fox."

The attitude you see in some of these threads was not developed over night, but over the past few years. Frustration on the part of the average salmon angler on these issues have been for the most part overlooked untill now.

Chris, I think you are missing the point about adding rods to the limited sectors. The whole point in have these sectors is giving anglers a unique experience to be able to fish a certain number of pools without added competition. I fish Gaspe for a total of 14 days a year and out of that, if I am lucky I may fish draw water two or at most three days. I am sorry, but I don't feel that I am being selfish. I have developed some of my strongest friendships sharing a salmon pool in Gaspe, but I will admit it is nice if for only a couple of days to know that I might be the only angler to fish a particular pool.

Gaspe is a magical place and for those who have never fished these magestic rivers you owe it to yourself to see some of the finest Atlantic Salmon rivers in the world. I am confident that the major problem has been identified and that a fair system will soon be in place.

Jim

Salar-1
05-14-2006, 09:04 AM
With all the authopedic/taxidermy talk I forgot to mention the details of last week's entente= STATUS QUO (as in the past)
Here's the news transmission URL
http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/2006/cjbrt/aujourdhui200605121800.asx
Although in French it'll give a good idea of what transpired.
The Gaspe news starts @ 0:48 seconds
Cheers

Bob Pauli
05-14-2006, 02:22 PM
Salar-1,
What do you mean by the word authopedic? Or by authopedic/taxidermy?
Thanks,
Bob

Salar-1
05-14-2006, 04:09 PM
Bob
Damn ,shoulda run Spellcheck ! I meant orthopedic:roll: Refering to the above mentioned surgeries .
The / = backslash.Yeah ,I know shoulda been \
Cheers

Markus
06-06-2006, 07:11 PM
Dear all;

I would love to know how this was ultimately settled. Does anyone know?

Best wishes for the new season!

Markus