Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs


Earle Fletcher
01-10-2006, 08:00 PM
I understand starting in 2007, the Quebec ZEC's preseason draws for salmon fishing in their controlled sectors will be awarded on a 75% Quebec resident and a 25% rest of the world basis. Quebec outfitters will also be granted a certain amount of rods in these controlled sectors too. For us nonresidents, it doesn't make these preseason draws too attractive. I wonder if the 48 hour draws will be awarded on the same basis? Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool. :mad:

Salar-1
01-10-2006, 08:31 PM
Earle
You've got it wrong !
I believe you ARE aware from where and how the 75/25% thing got started and why it did . If not ,dig into the archives here and SAOL. The outfitter thing ONLY applies to a certain very few sectors ,and I believe, certain days on three rivers,The York ,Bonaventure and Petite Cascapedia. IMHO (and quite a few others ) THERE AIN'T EXTRA ROOM on the e(a?)ffected sectors on either the York or the Bonnie. As for the Petite, the outfitter that will have the right there ,could easily double his clientele from 2 to 4 on the sector without any problem.
Cheers

Willie Gunn
01-11-2006, 04:12 AM
Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool. :mad:

Free for all good idea? I think not.
http://tinypic.com/jjmoe8.jpg

juro
01-11-2006, 07:28 AM
I would like to understand this issue a little clearer...

first of all it sounds like only "controlled sectors" are affected; what percentage of the good water in Gaspe does this represent? Or maybe the question is what percentage of each river's sector allocation is subject to 75% resident draws?

Secondly, how does 'free for all' apply to this favored draw for the subset of water? Do you refer to the fact that residents kill their salmon?

thanks in advance

Salar 33
01-11-2006, 08:36 AM
O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

I would welcome a 25/75 split as a non-resident. If you look at this year's draws you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

The York, Dartmouth and St. Jean are somewhat higher, not much, because some very good business people have promoted the economy of their hometown. This has put a greater ratio of ballots in the draw from outsiders. I hope all the good people of Gaspe understand this.

I do not think this would ever happen because it would mean that just about all the outsiders who apply would be accepted. The fact is that anglers from Quebec support the draws in far greater numbers. I have seen stranger things happen in Quebec and would not be surprised at the result.

As far as the Outfitters are concerned, they deserve the rights to fish good water all the time. If you think about it, the government of Quebec has sold them something called a licence. Should they then have to fight for the right sell what is already public. They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. The total number of rods per day for all the Salmon outtfiters in Quebec on all the rivers in Quebec total about 30 with most sharing a guide and boat. I don't see the problem here.

I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.

Earle Fletcher
01-11-2006, 11:02 AM
To answer a couple of the questions that have be raised: The Matane River ZEC does not have a preseason draw. You pay your daily rod fee and you can fish any pool under their jurisdiction. On the best pools, you may have to share (rotation) with 20 other fishermen, but that's the way they do it. They also lose out on the money the preseason draws generate for the local ZEC's. The preseason draws are for the best pools/sectors for a limited number of rods, and if you are lucky, you are in for a quality Atlantic Salmon fishing experience for a very reasonalble price. The basis for the 75/25 rumor is an article, "Winds of Change" on page 72 of the latest Atlantic Salmon Journal and Bruce Patterson's post on his "Go Gaspe" website stating this change was going into effect next year.

Green Ghost
01-11-2006, 01:26 PM
The 75 % to 25% split is only proposed for next year and not accepted yet by the ZECs.

The Grande Cascapedia used to use a 90% resident and 10 % NR split (this may still be the practice) This certainly was not a fair deal for non-residents.

The ZEC Gaspe has always defended their right to hold a fair public drawing non-residents and residents equally.

Here is my Opinion and how we got to where we are and where we may be going.

In 2004, Outfitters overloaded the drawing to the tune of some 4,000 cards in the winter draw out of around 7,000 total cards. Since non- residents are a majority of those using an outfitter, there was a greater than 50 % chance that a non-resident won a winter reservation.

Residents complained about the results. Too Many Non-resident winners. Add to this that the same outfitter purchased 20 % of the rods throughout the season on some other rivers and a portion of those in ZEC Gaspe, The Result - far too many Non resident winners.

In 2005, the ZEC changed the rules somewhat for the winter reservation system by forcing the actual winners (by name) to fish the days they had won and not there partners while they might be somewhere else fishing. Thereby all rods must be fished and "selective" zone fishing and overloading of the winter drawing with "nameless" non-resident winners was reduced but probably not eliminated.

This year the outfitters were awarded a small percentage of the winter reservations?? Not really, they were awarded extra rods on certain sectors of one river throughout the season during specific periods. Were these rods awarded because the outfitter was unwilling to enter the drawing with no gaurantess on whom would fish and when?? No not really, The outfitter was awarded rods because the outfitter has a right to have a business and provides some local jobs for running the camp (guides, cooks, etc). The govenment minister made that decision and forced the ZEC Gaspe to add the rods despite their argument that they should be able to manage their river as they always have. Result - More non-residents in certain zones on a rotational basis.

I have heard rumors that ther is a proposal that all non-residents will need to use an outfitter in the future. Nobody wants that either - especially the do-it-yourself non-residnets that have been supporting the ZEC for 25 years +/- and that have learned how to play the game and where to be and when. Like ME ;)

I have two recommendations for consideration:

1) Allow the outfitter to have a percentage of the river reservations throughout the season without participation in the winter drawing. That means completely remove all of the outfitters clients from the winter reservation. ( This will automatically eliminate a lot of non-residents) This also will improve greatly the chances that a RESIDENT wins the winter reservations. This will also increase the chances that a non-resident "do it yourself" (non-outfitter) fisherman has to win.

2) Keep the Zec public drawing just that - a fair and honest drawing that gives equal chance to the public, non-resdient and resident anglers equally. !! (you know us, we are the minority, the little guy, the underdog).

Should the ZEC adopt a policy that discriminates against non-residents by endorsing the 75% to 25% split; it is clear that they also choose to forfeit the extra revenues: 15% surcharge on purchased water for a non-resident, the necessary travel expenditures to the community for Hotels, Gasoline, Groceries, Flies, Beer, TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that the non resident has to pay.

The outfitter wants a business, give it to them, just do not make the remainder of the participants suffer. :tsk_tsk:

Salar-1
01-11-2006, 03:50 PM
Salar33
WRONG on the results !!
The Patapedia is ONLY open to Qc. residents for sector 3 and is 50/50 with NB residents for the canoe run !
The Causap ??
WOW !!!!I WISH IT WAS 0% non resident !!! Your comment here is ,indeed ,quite humerous (AND false)
The Petite I am TOTALLY uninterested in until a few things change there !
AS for yor Outfitter comments .I would agree IF the outfitter IS a Qc. resident AND the money STAYS in Gaspe ,or at least the province !!
Nothing else equates to "supporting the economy" An influx of money is desperately needed in the region .
Pardon my math here, but I just cannot figure out how a (as quoted below ) SMALL increase in #'s in a FEW sectors would continue to provide QUALITY fishing These #'s were determined in the past at a certain number to provide QUALITY fishing and cannot continue, with the INCREASED fishing pressure continue to provide that quality. Don't get me wrong.I'm definately NOT anti outfitter .I use one for 5 to 9 days each year. THAT outfitter 2 years back publicized their fishing to the extent that this year fishing on their waters were ruined due to pressure, and if it continues for another 2 years their rugular clientele will not be going back !
I too pay dearly the taxes ! support the economy and support the rivers EVERY DAY of the year
Cheers
O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.

Salar 33
01-11-2006, 05:20 PM
Dear Brian,

The numbers came from the CGRMP web site for Glenn Emma, Casaupscal and Patapedia. The Pat is open for non residents as stated by the Corporation. Below is a Causap & Pat price structure from the Zec. It is not listed as New Brunswick Resident. So please note that I think you have your sectors mixed. According to CGRMP sector 3 is open to non residents. Has been for as long as I can remember.

www.cgrmp.com if you would like to check.

DATE SECTOR RESIDENT NON-RESIDENT MODALITIES

1 37,50 $ n/a #2
2 90,75 $ n/a #3
3 113,00 $ 153,00 $ #3
Guest 34,00 $

You seem to have taken my comments in a negitive way. I was in no way suggesting that Quebec should be taking action to take something away or make it more difficult for local people. Other than this I don't understand the cut of your reply. I have nothing in my heart but the desire for the people of Quebec to be prosporous.


C.R.O.

Salar-1
01-11-2006, 07:36 PM
Shoulda prrrof-rrread but was bounced off while posting/typing
Yer right. Sector 3 might be open to all and is one our the jewels of Qc. fishing.9 or 11 kms of WILDERNESS fishing ,all for 6 fishemen!!. Hit it one year 4 days after Millionaire's Pool emptied out and fish ran the Matapedia AND the Pat !Had three days of incredible fishing ! Albini ,however, has changed dramatically this year and I here no longer holds the U.S. Navy sub. fleet of 80+ 25 to 30lbers. One year we counted 200 fish in that pool ! Sector 2 (the canoe run) IS however open only to Qc. and NB residents.Quebecers and NBers alternating each other day.Therefore the 50/50 that I mentioned .Sector one is ,as I remember ,open water. Off the top of my head right now I can count 3 non residents that were in the top 35 in the Causap. draw.
Cheers

wilson
01-12-2006, 01:25 AM
Juro, the controlled sectors cover quite a bit of the water in the main rivers in the provence, especially in Gaspe proper. The Matapedia is the only river I've fished that has a very large sequential public sector and my understanding is that it can become a free-for-all after June. I've found many pools occupied after the 15th. There still are a lot of salmon killed after C&R, I think that does politicize the issue more for the longer open season. My early season experience is that we all get along and there is enough water on the peninsula for everybody. Whether they hold fish or not is the question.

Needless to say it's a powerful issue for the Quebecers and as you can see there are more than two sides to it. The residents want [reasonable] access to fish their own water and the outfitters want to bring in business. It's a tough call and I don't envy the Quebec Government their jobs on this one.

While I'm on the soapbox, and there's talk of controlling access to fish, what about controlling the numbers of fish that can enter the river. I love early June on the Matapedia, but when the nets go out the run [obviously] stops until they come out. Anyone checking tonage or numbers harvested? Or am I just talkin' crack again?

BTW - I'm actually surprised to hear the Patapedia is open to non-residents. I thought that was residents only. Have to look into that. And Glen Emma is only %5 non-resident? I find that hard to believe, documented though it is.

-Chris

Willie Gunn
01-12-2006, 04:24 AM
With the low numbers running your rivers you still allow netting?
I thought the Irish were mad.

Salar 33
01-12-2006, 09:39 AM
To follow this thread,

I have been fishing in Quebec on public and private and ZEC water for a long time now. I feel I have a pretty darn good understand of the process and the available waters. I know what it feels like to want to fish in the beauty of Quebec’s gleaming waters.

I have been on the Matapedia forks on June 1st and stood as the only outsider fishing for 45 minutes out of each 3 and one half hours. I have been on Hepel in the middle of July as the only outsider getting 15 minutes each pass. Does anyone think that all the boats on the upper Matapedia and Bonnie are owned by Americans? I have put my name into draw after draw after 48 hour draw with very little results to show for my money and effort.

J'essaye d'apprendre le français ainsi je peux avoir la meilleure expérience.

I have been at the Bonnie when it is just too crowded. How many parking spots do you have to find full on the York to understand what crowded fishing is like.

IN ALL OF THESE TIMES NEVER WERE THE PEOPLE THE ISSUE FOR ME. ONLY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

I have turned my attention and money to private water over the last number of years because I cannot stand the lack of solitude. I want to choose when I sit and when I cast.

So Brian, I full well understand your frustration. But I want you to take a broader look around this season. Maybe in Gaspe you are seeing a few more license plates from outsiders but this is not the case for most public sectors. You are seeing Quebec plates for the majority and you are blaming a few outsiders for your crowd. Also just for clarification on the Causapscal, there are only 25 draw cards accepted. I was number 28 and did get a consolation call. Only 3 days for 2 sports were left at that time. I would have taken it but I was lucky enough this year to get a prime time spot on Glenn Emma that was the same dates. If you call Anne or Richard in Causap a lot of these things could be understood.

I think the main reason why outsiders could be eliminated from the lottery draws without much cause for hardship is self evident. The independent guides would suffer. A little gas a little food and a little hotel space would be hurt. But the general well being of the area would not suffer all that much. The truth is that there are not as many outsiders on the rivers as some might have you believe. And the number on non residents that win spots in the draws is low.

The fact of the matter is that there are just too few salmon. Look at the counts on some of these rivers. I have been following a number of web sites from across the pond. Single rivers where the fish count is greater than the entire Gaspe from Matapedia to Matane. All Private, No Public. Catches so great yet the number of sports are limited with a fishing day that starts at 8am and ends a 5pm. Jacket and Tie fishing at it's very best. The time it takes for me to get to Matapedia is about the same as Edinburgh.

Juro, the answer to being successful in the November draws is to put your name in all of them at a cost of about $500.00 US and then hope you get picked on one. The revenue that is now generated by these draws is a substantial amount. Also you must know the river by sector and pool to make a smart decision. This year the person on the draw must be present as one of the sports. Non transferable unlike as in the past that created the problem with ballot stuffing in Gaspe. You pay a deposit to hold the spot and then the balance in the early spring. The ZEC has the money even if the water goes fallow.

So I will state again. I would welcome a 25/75 rule. The issue is that the good people of Quebec will not.

Dear Malcolm, as far as the netting is concerned. It is the right of the First Nation people to carry on their traditional culture. This is a topic that has roots as deep as Bannock Burn. Every year one person’s rights over another’s are discussed on both sides. As an outsider, I choose not to take sides in this matter. Do I want more salmon in the river? Yes. Do I want a people with ancient history to prosper? Yes. So to answer your query on why there is netting, some will answer why not.


C.R.O.

Willie Gunn
01-12-2006, 10:24 AM
Thanks for the reply re netting.
If the river will stand the netting I suppose it is ok, but I am not sure that with the figures I have seen that it can.
The Irish netsmen use the same excuse...................our famillies have been netting for generations it is in our blood. Simply no salmon no netting.
The extiction curve on salmon stocks has a very flat plateau but a very deep drop, move too far to the left and the salmon will be lost in no time at all.

Salar 33
01-12-2006, 12:08 PM
Dear Malcolm,

To cull out the netting as a problem we must also make sure that we understand all the other problems. If only the limited netting that was in place by First Nation people were happening then what would be the problem? Please remember, and I mean this in no way to demean Scottish heritage, that when the family was told to stop netting they did not loose a part of their religious path.

What has happened in Quebec is more like if all the Scottish commoners got together and forced by their vote for the owners of the beats to make them public. This is done by taking away the river leases and rights. Then hire a company(ZEC)to control who gets to use the land and water. Not too long ago the rivers of the Gaspe were wholly leased by aristocrats and the well to do. If I were to compare the Aberdeen Dee to the Matapedia it would go something like this. Up to and including Park would be public. No limit to access and only a daily fee of about 25 pounds. Boats with motors are legal. Among the public and the beginning of the controlled zone were two private sporting lodges with some river access that limits the public access. From Park to Inchmarlo would be run on a lottery basis with a total of 10 rods per day at the price of the Junction on the Tweed. Above that would be all public again for a daily fee where boats without motors were present. Residents would pay about 60% of what no residents pay. The Gairn tributary(Causapscal) with it's run of huge fish would be controlled by a ZEC for 300 pounds per day. It would be a very different situation than the river you know now.

Add to this the PH value changing many rivers, angler taken fish, angler released fish that do not spawn, foul hooked fish, degraded habitat, seals, cormorants, change in climate, and deforestation.

Shall I go on?

We all have a personal level of value to what we do. We all want to have a justification for our actions. We all want the right to do what we love. To be able to all do this we must have some one to point a finger at and say they are the problem when it comes to our pursuit of Salar.

If there could ever come a point when we collectively understand this then the need for one group’s rights to mean more than another's rights may have a chance of becoming equal rights.

Again I state that I am not taking sides, only trying to discuss a topic from the center.

C.R.O.

Salar36
01-12-2006, 03:04 PM
Being one these who involved the 75%-25% proposal, I think it would be appropriate to restablish some facts.

This proposal comes from the "strange" results observed in Gaspe and Petite Cascapedia since couple years (a big part of it from the overloading by outfitters and some individuals, but 2005 shown some things in the same trend even if the "non-transferability"rule was changed). The number(%) is just the reflect of the number of licences sold in Quebec; around 75% resident and 25% non-resident. The limited rod sectors are the best products the Quebec ZECs have to offer, and basically, the primary goal when these ZECs were created was to priorize the access for the residents. This goal was not achieved in the last couple years in some rivers.

Now, what would be the best; having the same rule than in New Brunswick for the crown reserves (restricted to NB resident only) ? Allow the draw to resident and unsold rods for non-residents? Mandatory guide for non-resident like in NB or Newfoundland? I don't think the proposed rule penalize any non-resident, and in fact, it still keep Quebec as the place where non-resident has the most accessible water - for limited rod number sectors in public water- for Atlantic Salmon Fishing in North America. Currently, only 4 rivers would be affected...

I understand this reaction, but just imagine Quebec's residents reaction when they realize that 60% of the best public water -in some case more than that- is allocated to non-resident... Some of them asked for a ban of non-resident in the limited rods number sectors during the draw, like in the Crown Reserve in New Brunswick. I don't think this is a rational idea, and most of the Quebec people don't think that too.

From the survey ran in 2004, the BIG major part of the non-resident told they would agree and understand that Quebec Residents have a priority for the draw. And curiously, the BIG majority of Quebec residents did not requested that...Strange no? Maybe a sign of no chauvinism...

This rule is not in place for now, but , according with the comitment done by the government, should be in place by 2007, ready for the draw in 2006, even if some ZEC dissagree. The owners of the ZECs (the Quebec population) agreed.

Willie Gunn
01-12-2006, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the reply, Scotland is not quite at that stage but the socialist government in Edinburgh has provided a land fund to allow locals to buy the estates if they want. It will then fall to the locals to run the estates as they see fit.

I still think that salmon have to come first. Whether people have to change their beliefs or anglers have to angle else where. If the salmon are wiped out you cannot catch them.

I will keep out of the debate on % but watch with interest

Salar-1
01-12-2006, 08:30 PM
Salar33
If you were fishing Les Fourches on June 01 ,instead you shoulda been on T--k, Adams, A---e, Laforce run (Spey-run), Brown's (DEFINATELY Browne's) or "The beaches " Only Adams and Browne's are marked on any map . Haven't fished Heppel(or as we Anglos call it, Hoople) since '79,when Major Robert Strong held forth there. Nailed a male on Browne's 3 years back that took me down into McNeil's in Glen Emma.Finally lost it when I couldn't got my hand around the wrist of the fish to release it.
You mentioned "Brian I understand your frustaration" No you don't !!!.My comments were SPECIFICALLY about reserved waters and only reserved waters. I have 2 days on B1 on the Bonnie (ever been there ) The ZEC wants to add 2 rods :tsk_: :mad: :Eyecrazy: :frown: Since we've been allowed to fish this sector it's been restricted to 4 rods.Because we wade fish there's only a few pools that you walk (50 minutes, 5 and 10 minutes ) into. Generally the other 2 sports are in a canoe ,so the 4 of us manage to fish around each other without stepping on each others toes.Adding the extra rods to this (and other) sector(s) will take away the very solitude that you mentioned you cherish !.
Juro, 'scuse me but to put your name in all the Qc. Zec draws would cost you more than double the 500$ quoted. besides save your money and fish the "public "waters on the Bonnie and Matapedia. Had my bets fishing trips in years ths year on both these rivers and the publicon the Bonnie is IMHO as good as if not better that reserved sectors on other rivers. Except for Phillippe we had the pools to our selves. The Matapedia trips were absolutely incredible !! How's 2 20lb+ released fish and 3 lost in one day sound ??
Cheers

Salar-1
01-13-2006, 09:55 PM
Chris
Checked with Causapscal office today, and sector 3 IS available in the draw to non residents. If you wish to put in for '07 ,PM me and I'll detail the pros and cons.
Cheers

Salar36
01-15-2006, 09:01 AM
I have read a comment regarding the changes on Albini last summer (Patapedia sector 3). Yes, there were radical change in the flow of the river (in fact, the main flow comes now from the other side of the "lake"....), but by the end of July, over 100 salmon were in the pool. So it is still a major holding pool.

Salar-1
01-15-2006, 03:24 PM
Good news,glad to hear it !! Speaking of Albini ,I wonder where the waders went ? They'd been hanging in that tree since at least 1970 !!
Did you check out Saumon or the Meadows ? My favourite pool on this sector was Jolie ,however the clearcutting has really f--ked up the scenic driving down the old growth green canopied trail ! Just cross Chevreuil and check out the devistation over the top of the crest that overlooks the camp !!
Cheers

Green Ghost
01-16-2006, 10:15 AM
The topic now seems to be a discussion on the Patapedia.

I intend to re-iterate a theme from several posts on the original topic.

Outfitters overloading the winter draw the last few years has reduced the chances of the public winning for BOTH residents and non-residents.

If the ZEC will eliminate the outfitters from participation in the winter drawing process altogether, the chance for everyone will be increased.

If the 75/25% rule is put in place and intended to bias the winter reservations for Quebec residents, then the fee structure for non-residents should be normalized.

Why should non-residents enter the drawing with a less than equal chance of winning and more importantly, why should non-residents pay 1.5 times more to fish the water if they do win????

Non-residents will simply realize that their money is not well spent, LESS CHANCE TO WIN, PAYING MORE MONEY IF THEY WIN, END RESULT- FAR LESS VALUE than that of the current rules.

The non-residents that have history with the Zecs and are repeat customers are Highly unlikely to triple what their usual trip costs and revert to the use of an outfitter to gain access to reserved sectors.

The Zecs and the region will in the end reduce the revenues gained by the participation from Non-residents.

That in turn will have to cause an INCREASE in THE FEES for each Rod For each river for residents in order for the ZEC to operate, hire guardians and maintain their operations.

The ZEC's will have to choose-

An equal and fair drawing for the public for both non-residents and residents that Excludes outfitters and their clients.

OR

An equal payment structure for the rods throughout the system in order to keep the non- residents revenues coming into Quebec (and the local communities) instead of forcing them to go elsewhere in pursuit of Salar.:tsk_tsk:

Smolt
01-16-2006, 11:36 AM
Green Ghost,

I agree with you in principal, but not in effect. Whatever ZEC charges non-residents will be paid. Good salmon fishing is too scarce for, IMHO, an extra $30-a-day or so to discourage significant numbers of non-resident anglers.

CK

Earle Fletcher
01-16-2006, 02:42 PM
I'll make one last comment on this thread. I hope I haven't caused too many hard feelings by starting it. I've fished the Gaspe rivers since 1970, and they have provided me with some of the best Atlantic Salmon fishing experiences of my life. I think the creation of the ZEC's by the Quebec Government was a good move to put the local people in charge of their rivers. I believe the ZEC in Gaspe, Quebec is especially well managed by very cordial people that have always been generous to the nonresident. The residents of Gaspe are very friendy and helpful. It is a great place to spend a fishing holiday.

My fishing buddy and I have been able to build a quality salmon fishing trip to Gaspe, Quebec around 2 or 4 days of fishing in prime sectors we picked up in the preseason draw. The in-between times have been spent fishing the unlimited sectors. We always entered the 48-hour draws, but never had any luck. It's because their preseason draw has always treated residents and non residents equally, we have been able to do this. With the draw slanted 3 to 1 against us, we will be lucky to get 2 days at the end of August. My favorite, the St.-Jean River, is only available through the preseason and 48-hour draws. I'm not willing to travel to Gaspe, Quebec to fish for a week on the unlimited sectors in the Dartmouth and York rivers. I would just as soon fish the unlimited zone on the Matane, Madeleine and Matapedia, as they are closer to where I live. Nonresidents have had a good deal for a long time in Gaspe, and I just hate to lose it.

Salar-1
01-16-2006, 04:09 PM
Earle
The 75/25 rule was/is proposed ONLY for a prime time period which is ,I believe 15/06 to 15/07. So we would be all equal for outside of this PROPOSAL.
Hey !!you and I started within one year of each other:eek: !
You mentioned quality fishing based around 2 or 4 days in prime sectors.We both know that You can give an absolute MINIMUM of casting lessons to ANYONE and put 'em on say Spuin and IF the fish haven't been spooked they'll easily raise a fish.In the case of my 14year old son it just happened to be a 27lb female !
Now take any Flyfisherman with a minimum of situation awareness and put him/her on most reserved sectors and they should nail a fish (Offie ,Spuin, Whitehouse ! That being said ,there are a few sectors where a guide/outfitter might be requiredWhere it DOES get interesting and where a guide/ outfitter is DEFINATELY needed on one's first visit is on public waters.A good knowledge base is definately required here. Also NOTHING really equates fishing with a good guide who will share his/her love of Salmon fishing. I've used 5 guides in the past and the two that REALLY stand out where the canoes were used . Another case where a guide would be needed would be to help a disabled fisherman who otherwisewouldn't beon the water.
BTW Green Ghost EXCELLENT post :)
Cheers

Muckle Salmon
01-16-2006, 08:09 PM
I think the creation of the ZEC's by the Quebec Government was a good move to put the local people in charge of their rivers. I believe the ZEC in Gaspe, Quebec is especially well managed by very cordial people that have always been generous to the nonresident. The residents of Gaspe are very friendy and helpful. It is a great place to spend a fishing holiday.

I just hate to lose it.

Earle, you have expressed the sentiment of many of us who have been fortunate enough to enjoy the spectacular fishing of the rivers of the Gaspe'. Allthough only recently new to the Gaspe' (late 90's) it has become the much anticipated start to our Salmon fishing year. I have found that the people at the ZEC in Gaspe' have allways gone out of there way to be extremely helpful, especially to someone new to fishing in Quebec. On my first trip to the Gaspe' I will allways be thankful to Ann Smith for taking the time from her lunch hour to point out some productive water to us newcomers. When in the office I feel that the personnel share in the enjoyment of our successes and honestly have the best interest of the journeyman angler at heart. I see this in their opposition to the situation with regard to the extra rods allocated to outfitters this season and yet having this put upon them from what I believe is the exertion of political influence.
I just hope this all works out in the end as I would hate to loose all the Gaspe' has to offer me.

Ramsay

Salar36
01-20-2006, 11:34 AM
If I understand well, non-resident are afraid to loose what residents lost to the profit of non-resident since couple years...

Earle Fletcher
01-20-2006, 07:47 PM
Pierre, I was not aware of all the "hanky Panky" that was going on in some of the ZEC draws on behalf of the nonresidents. I want you to know I did not take part in any of this "funny business". It's too bad there are some people who are always taking advantage of the "loop holes" at the expense of the general public. I realize you have an impact on the policies of the Quebec Government's administration of their Atlantic salmon rivers, and I hate to see you have such a sour attitude towards nonresident fishermen because of a few greedy individuals.

Salar-1
01-21-2006, 12:05 AM
Earle
Don't worry. I'll speak for 99.999999 % of Qc's salmon fisherfolk and we do not, in any way, have bad feeling towards residents. Don't forget the Salmon fishing community is small and word gets around on unsavory deals.the overloading thingy was known for quite awhile until just that that little drop oveflowed the cup and the **** hit the fan !
Unfortunately a few people on either side of the story got dragged in and more than one friendship was lost.
Cheers

Salar36
01-22-2006, 07:03 PM
Earle,

Make no mistake about my attitude. I have nothing against non-resident, and in fact I always defended position which is not radical. But when I read some comment like "without a limited rod sector, I will not go in Gaspe and they will lose my money"...This is the same thing for resident in Quebec province, the are enough to take all the water, a dollar is a dollar, if Quebec resident can't spend it here, they will spend elsewhere...so the net balance is exactly the same. As David Bishop has already mentioned, the opportunity to fish water outside our own country or province is a privilege, not a right. I would be great if it was clearly understood.

Salar 33
01-23-2006, 08:27 AM
Dear Friends,

It is becoming a little be clearer to me now. I think that the changes in place, as I understand them to be, for 2007 seem to be fair. I am a non-resident of Quebec.

1. The main objective of local people feeling that their country and rights are not being exploited should be in place through a set % draw. I hope it will feel that way for you.

2. The number of non residents winning draws will be set at the calculated limit. I think this will increase the opportunity to enjoy Quebec for non-residents.

3. The number of resident draws will be set at a ratio that seem equal to past history license purchases. 75%. I hope that this is a satisfactory arrangement for the people of Quebec.

4. Outfitters will be given water to sell in a controlled but reasonable way to have a business. They will not have to spend three times the money on draw cards in order to have water to sell.

5. The local economy will not suffer. This will be the best part of a fair outcome.

6. 48 hour and last minute draws will be sold and the ZEC should be happy except for the quantity of money lost on draw card over purchasing.

7. A fair and respectable way to run the draws will be decided and we will all live happy ever after. If anyone is interested in a way for this to feel fair I would be happy to share.

Does this sound like where things are going? If this can be your final goal then residents and non-residents will all feel like winners. Please make it happen and work for longer than one season.

C.R.O.