Scandinavian vs. Skagit (all TIC) (almost) [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Scandinavian vs. Skagit (all TIC) (almost)


peter-s-c
11-29-2005, 06:19 PM
Scandinavian vs. Skagit

Let’s settle this the old fashioned way . . . .

IN THE RED CORNER!!! Wearing the brown blank with the green wrappings and weighing in at a line weight of 560 grains, the G. Loomis KIIISSSSPPPIOXXX 7/8!!!!

IN THE BLUE CORNER!!! !!! Wearing the green blank with the green wrappings and weighing in at a line weight of 600 grains, THE SNOOOOOOOWBEEE 10/11!!!!

“Well Howard, how do you see the fight shaping up tonight?”

“Never in the annals of the sweet science, the pugilistic arts, have we ever seen such mismatch. The little Kispiox, that little noodle, a veritable vermicelli, the sweetheart of the American Pacific Northwest, is in tough tonight facing that big bruiser from the British Isles. Unfair you say? Not to our little Kispiox, for in that little American blank resides a tough heart. That little Kispiox, that fair and delicate 7/8, punches well above its weight. Have you ever seen the size of flies it throws? Can you imagine that little rod punching those huge Intruders through the ether? That British bruiser may think he has this fight won before the opening bell but this fight is a long way from being over.”

“But Howard, surely the Kispiox can’t last beyond 70’ feet?”

“Can it last beyond 70’? Can it last beyond 70’? That remains to be seen. It rarely goes that distance so that may be a problem. If the cast goes that far, the British bruiser may yet win this one. For our Kispiox to triumph the cast must be kept short!”

And that is the rub.

For my Kispiox 7/8, I have a 470 grain Airflo Skagit head with a set of homemade 9' tips from floater to 9' of T-10. The largest fly I have cast on the rod is a 4" affair tied on a 2/0 deep water salmon hook. I've tied up 45mm Waddingtons with lead eyes and cast those Skagit style on my 8/9 Blue and I'm pretty sure the Kispiox could handle them as well. As Sean said in the other thread, to cast this fly Scandinavian style, you'd have to go up to a 10/11 so that the line weights are roughly equivalent. Doesn't matter what method you use to cast, the fly line weight has to be sufficient to move the fly.

It is very true that you can toss big heavy monsters with itty bitty rods using the Skagit method. What seldom gets mentioned though is that they tap out pretty fast when the going gets long.

My Kispiox 7/8 will toss these flies using minimal effort and not much attention to technique, out to about 60'. However, every ten feet past that point takes a significant jump up in skill and effort until it tops out at about 90'. It's a delightful rig, a wonderful casting tool up to about 70' max. Beyond that, the fun level starts to drop well off. I've managed close to 100' when casting a small, light fly but the concentration and effort required put it well into the "no fun" zone.

The Snowbee 10/11 on the other hand, is just coming into it's own at 70'. In the hands of a competent caster, 120' is no big deal with Scandinavian shooting heads. For the Kispiox 7/8, 120' is strictly wishful thinking, even in the hands of a Skagit God.

While they will cast the same size fly, they cast them at very different ranges.

I own both rods and I don't take the Snowbee out when casting short in Cattaraugus Creek and I won't be taking the Kispiox to any of those big Norwegian rivers.

Eddie
11-29-2005, 06:59 PM
maybe horse racing would have been a more accurate analogy. different horses for....

peter-s-c
11-29-2005, 07:14 PM
maybe horse racing would have been a more accurate analogy. different horses for....

ya, but the Howard bit would've been less fun . . . . :hihi:

greenbutt
11-29-2005, 09:47 PM
Peter
I have been lurking for a while on this site and speypages and finally decided to enter the fray. I consider myself an accomplished caster, but am amazed by your level of "expertise".
I went back and looked at your old posts. You know what amazes me ........... I've never seen you ask a question. You are truly a plethora of knowledge.

Where did you learn all this :devil: :devil:

When are you taking your casting certification :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

peter-s-c
11-29-2005, 09:52 PM
Peter
I have been lurking for a while on this site and speypages and finally decided to enter the fray. I consider myself an accomplished caster, but am amazed by your level of "expertise".
I went back and looked at your old posts. You know what amazes me ........... I've never seen you ask a question. You are truly a plethora of knowledge.

Where did you learn all this :devil: :devil:

When are you taking your casting certification :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

Hell, I'm way too busy replying to all this stuff to every take a certification course. :)

juro
11-29-2005, 09:55 PM
The fact of the matter is that they are both valid and interesting techniques and beyond that it boils down to personal preference. One has the advantage of greater load-tension to move more mass with little human effort and the other is stealthier and extremely efficient.

The young bull runs down the hill and learns one style. The old bull walks down the hill and learns them both. :lildevl:

Big K1
11-29-2005, 10:46 PM
I thought this horse was dead? :confused:

greenbutt
11-30-2005, 07:00 AM
What is potentially deadly about this site and others like it is that information gets passed along as if it is gospel...........or that it is coming form a legitimate source.


This is an awful comparison.......who would compare a 10 weight rod to a 7 weight rod and say that the 10 weight casts further :Eyecrazy: . That's like the equivalent of saying ......."well I dropped a 10 lb rock off a building and a 50 lb rock off the building......can you believe it the 50 lb rock fell faster...." and before you go typing that the lines are the same weight I know that. The point is a 10 weight rod puts more energy into a cast than 7 weight rod.

Peter you totally miss the boat with these different casting techniques. I've only played a little with the Dredgers, but I'm a big fan of the Fly Logic rods for Skagit casting. I can make 100 + feet with my 9/10. That's the accurate comparison. I've seen some of your posts about 900 grains.......are you smoking crack ? The Rio 9/10 skagit is 650 grains , 10 feet of T-14 is 140..........I may not be a rocket scientist but that adds up to .........(let see carry the 7, the square root of 9 )........790 :biggrin: .

For those of you out there getting sucked into this black hole of ignorance, the whole point of skagit casting is to take a light rod and be able to cast big tips so that you have a rod that is lighter and nicer to fight fish on. You can't compare a 7/8 with a 10 weight. Good grief.

If you have to cast further get a bigger rod. Do you have issues with rod size peter :eek: .

By the way you never did mention who your skagit master was.........could it be...............

Hawkeye
11-30-2005, 07:12 AM
Not to steer the thread into the physics realm but both of those rocks will fall at the same rate if the only difference is weight. Make the 10 pounder pumice and the 50 pounder granite and you might get a difference due to air resistance.

skip_scratch
11-30-2005, 07:34 AM
Read Peter's post again - its not about a 7/8 vs a 9/10. Peter is trying to talk about different casting methods and how he thinks skagit might be distance limited.

Also its sometimes hard to judge tone in a written response but yours might be a bit harsh. Correct me if I'm wrong :cool:

:wink: cheers everyone
Skip

Charlie
11-30-2005, 08:41 AM
I have to agree with Skip. Peter is comparing these two rods because that is what he has. Not all of us can afford to get every type of rod in every length and line weight for the sake of comparing them. We get what we need to meet our fishing needs.

And as for asking questions, an astute reader would realize that he has asked a question in this post. He wants peoples opinions on these casting styles. Just because a question is not asked does not mean it is not implied. We all have are own ways of gathering information.

Charlie

peter-s-c
11-30-2005, 09:34 AM
Read Peter's post again - its not about a 7/8 vs a 9/10. Peter is trying to talk about different casting methods and how he thinks skagit might be distance limited.

Also its sometimes hard to judge tone in a written response but yours might be a bit harsh. Correct me if I'm wrong :cool:

:wink: cheers everyone
Skip


Thanks, it's actually about Sean's comment about requiring a 10/11 Scandinavian head to cast the same size of fly as a 7/8 Skagit line. He's correct. But while that is true, there's also another side to the story and that is the problem with such light rigs having limited range. As my last sentence should have suggested to anyone who bothered to read the entire thing, sometimes that's important and sometimes it isn't.

When a newcomer to the sport asks a question and somebody jumps in with the familiar Skagit refrain, it does a disservice to them if the information is incomplete. While Skagit can throw big flies and heavy lines with light rods, that capability also comes with shortcomings, like heavy lines that can be tiring to use, limited range, very splashy, noisy casts and presentations, etc. Maybe these factors are important to them and maybe not, but they should be made aware of them.

In this case, the newcomer said he had a right shoulder problem and I responded that Underhand would be best as the rest are broader stroking methods than the Underhand and will stress the shoulder more. The newcomer also wanted to overhead cast with his two hander and the Underhand stroke works very well when adapted to overhead casting. Then the whole thing spiraled off topic as I was nitpicked over the "broad stroking" comment.

For anyone who would like to resolve this for themselves, I'd suggest an examination of the Scandinavian and Skagit casting videos on Speypages, look at the amount of right shoulder movement and right arm extension in each when right hand up, then ask yourself the question, "Which one would I want to use if I had a bad right shoulder?"

This is my last comment on the subject.

fishinfool
12-01-2005, 06:13 AM
:mad:
Why don't those of you who always opt to pick on whatever Peter says just skip over his posts and let it be. I am no expert and couldn't tell you a thing about Skagit casting, or much of anything else related to two handed casting for that matter, but I can't understand why his posts cause such animosity. It seems to me that he always gives information based on his experiences and experimentation, just what he has found to work for him in his circumstances. If you can show where what he says is wrong or why it is not workable, I think he would be one of the first to say thanks. If all you want to do is pick at him or try to belittle his efforts to share I, for one, would appreciate it if you found a more productive use of your time. A lot of us who are not gods living in the PNW have found a ton of valuable insights in what Peter posts and thank him for sharing his experiences.

Greg Pavlov
12-01-2005, 08:08 AM
I went back and looked at your old posts. You know what amazes me ........... I've never seen you ask a question. You are truly a plethora of knowledge.
Where did you learn all this :devil: :devil:

Having spent a fair amount of time with Peter, I have to say that you've missed the b oat here. Peter is very, very into fly fishing, tying, and casting, and he's always experimenting and learning from others. And he loves to talk about all of it.

PKK
12-01-2005, 09:43 AM
Green but has a very valid point. There are alot of self proclaimed casting/fishing/tying heros on this site. It all makes for good discussion but difficult for a newcomer to sort out who is full of crap and what might be best for him. Just because someone has a million posts doesn't make him a expert. So take everything that is written with a grain of salt, and get out on the river

Eddie
12-01-2005, 10:45 AM
I think that this point is true, but there are alot of people with a great deal of experience that post here. I hope that they would add their experience if it was not consistent with another posters recomendations.

Topher Browne
12-01-2005, 02:18 PM
I was fishing on the Deschutes earlier this month with my buddies "Spey Bubba" (Way Yin) and Greg Pearson.

Interestingly, all three of us were fishing completely different kits. Way was on a Scientific Anglers XLT (long-belly line); Greg was on a custom Scientific Anglers Skagit/Pacific Northwest line most of the time; and I was using one of Trond and Knut Syrstad's new LTS Scandinavian shooting heads. I don't think any of us failed to cover the available holding water due to our individual tackle choices.

I learned a lot from Greg about Skagit-style casting. Greg raises a really good point about Skagit-style casting and fishing: he prefers the Skagit/PNW style when and if he needs to throw a big fly to catch small to medium-size fish. The Skagit/PNW style allows him to use a relatively light rod to chuck big flies, and also permits him to use a length and weight of rod that suits his tastes. Cool.

Every style of Spey casting has its advantages and disadvantages. It's cool to see anglers choose the style that gives them the best chance of hooking a fish in a given set of conditions or simply gives them the most pleasure when they're on the river.

Charlie
12-01-2005, 02:44 PM
Topher,

Great to hear from you, and thanks for the great perspective. I don’t know Way Yin but I do know his reputation and I know you and Greg. It would be worth it weight in gold to just watch the three of you work a pool.

The last time I worked a heavy tip (12’ of T14) and large fly (a bushy tube fly with a total length of about 5”) through a pool; I used my 14’ 9wt. and a Carron Jetstream line with a 65’ head. I had no problem getting out about 80’ with this setup; witch is all I needed to cover the pool I was fishing. The whole thing was very comfortable to cast and got down to the fish with no problem. To your last point, a very pleasurable way to fish and it got me into a few to boot. :cool:

Charlie

wrke
12-01-2005, 02:53 PM
Charlie
You'll probably be able to see the three of them together pretty soon. They were making a video.
Bill
:)

greenbutt
12-01-2005, 08:26 PM
I will be less sarcastic this time...........

The only reason I registered with the site was to address this issue. I decided to do so when a friend of mine was telling me some crazy stuff. He too lurks this site but hasnt ever registered.

I apologize for being a little rough on Peter........I was a bad boy :devil: .

I have put a few years into skagit casting now. Started out cutting lines and now have the Rio lines on my rods. Just picked up an Airflo. I'm retired so I cast and fish a lot these days.

My dilema is that people speak in very absolute terms without any qualifications........if you notice both Sean and I asked Peter who was the "skagit master" that told him he was doing it right. NO ANSWER.

guys do it themself......and then are self proclaimed experts.

The comparison is awful, I don't care what others say. If I put equal grains on my single handed 2weight and 5 weight and complain that the 2 weight dosn't cast as far you would all think I'm nuts. If I sited that as a disadvantage to the 2 weight you would think I'm nuts.

Charlie pointed out that's all he has...........I'm OK with that. But don't compare them as rods competing to do the same thing.

I have fished exclusively skagit for a few years now........... and I don't make the emphatic statements that some people do.

I'm not proclaiming skagit as the best technique ........THERE IS NO BEST TECHNIQUE !!! But please compare them accurately. A 7/8 rod compared to a 9/10 is never accurate.

I expect this to be deleted by the moderators because I don't think they like the pot being stirred up. I also seemed to have to a little trouble logging in, but I managed

:biggrin: :biggrin: .

Jamey McLeod
12-01-2005, 08:32 PM
I thought this horse was dead? :confused:


If not, its getting close to needing to be put down :hihi:. Or being put out to stud, or something?????

Jamey McLeod
12-01-2005, 08:34 PM
I will be less sarcastic this time...........

The only reason I registered with the site was to address this issue. I decided to do so when a friend of mine was telling me some crazy stuff. He too lurks this site but hasnt ever registered.

I apologize for being a little rough on Peter........I was a bad boy :devil: .

I have put a few years into skagit casting now. Started out cutting lines and now have the Rio lines on my rods. Just picked up an Airflo. I'm retired so I cast and fish a lot these days.

My dilema is that people speak in very absolute terms without any qualifications........if you notice both Sean and I asked Peter who was the "skagit master" that told him he was doing it right. NO ANSWER.

guys do it themself......and then are self proclaimed experts.

The comparison is awful, I don't care what others say. If I put equal grains on my single handed 2weight and 5 weight and complain that the 2 weight dosn't cast as far you would all think I'm nuts. If I sited that as a disadvantage to the 2 weight you would think I'm nuts.

Charlie pointed out that's all he has...........I'm OK with that. But don't compare them as rods competing to do the same thing.

I have fished exclusively skagit for a few years now........... and I don't make the emphatic statements that some people do.

I'm not proclaiming skagit as the best technique ........THERE IS NO BEST TECHNIQUE !!! But please compare them accurately. A 7/8 rod compared to a 9/10 is never accurate.

I expect this to be deleted by the Moderators because I don't think they like the pot being stirred up. I also seemed to have to a little trouble logging in, but I managed

:biggrin: :biggrin: .

Who cares, just fish!

Dornblaser
12-02-2005, 12:47 PM
Hey, the title said that it was mostly Tongue in Cheek. I got a chuckle out of it. I never took it as a treatise to weigh against Simon's book.

David

voodoofly
12-02-2005, 07:24 PM
peter is an honorary member of the ghetto casters.

don't mess with p-dog.

sure 'nuff you get a lochmor whooping.

damn cracker anyways.

g-dog out

juro
12-03-2005, 08:35 AM
Jimi is the man. (cool sig)