HELP - Making a Skagit Line from a Wind Cutter [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: HELP - Making a Skagit Line from a Wind Cutter


skip_scratch
11-26-2005, 04:56 PM
Hello

I read somewhere once that you can make a skagit line from a Wind Cutter by cutting TIP2 so it is only 5 feet long. So do I cut 10 feet off of the front (narrow) part of tip 2 and use the remaining or do I cut 10 feet off of the back (wide) part of tip 2 and use that?

shotgunner
11-26-2005, 05:53 PM
a few bucks would get you a set of cheaters, saving tip two from the axe.

Willie Gunn
11-26-2005, 06:37 PM
Just tie a brick to it

skip_scratch
11-26-2005, 06:55 PM
you'd think that with all the "talent" displayed in this forum someone could please help me out :confused:

Gillie
11-26-2005, 08:02 PM
Get a Airflo skagit. They are much nicer lines than the Rio. They are also longer. Depending on the size they are 32.5 to 35 feet long vs. the 27 ft Rio. I attach anywhere from 5 to 13 feet of T14 to these lines without cheaters. 5 is tricky to cast because it is easy to pull the small anchor. Less than 5 you have to involve a cheater system, but for me I rarely fish less than 7 feet and this hangs off one of these bad boys just perfectly. When I do a tip less 5 feet or less I use custom spliced tips rather than a cheater system with additional loops. They also cast with a nicer feel.

Gillie

skip_scratch
11-26-2005, 09:30 PM
Guys thanks for all your responses - I'm not planning to purchase anything.

I have some T10, a RIO windcutter multi and an old 10WF. I'm gonna hack and try and make a skagitized setup.

If I'm gonna purchase cheaters or Airflo skagit lines or purchase ... whatever its a 3 week wait for the stuff to get shipped to me. None of the local shops would have any of your suggestions in stock.

So given what i have now any suggestions on how to chop up the windcutter and what pieces to use?

Thanks for any reply

/s

skip_scratch
11-26-2005, 09:45 PM
... what is a "cheater" actually cheating?
it is weight, length or something else?

why/how does a cheater work - anyone know?

SSPey
11-26-2005, 09:49 PM
which windcutter do you have (3 # designation)?

skip_scratch
11-27-2005, 06:44 AM
the 8/9/10

BLACK FRANCIS
11-27-2005, 08:58 AM
skip,
i have lines in stock in your area pm if you want details.

anyway if you take your w/c remove the tip section and put on some t-14 it will work just fine. the idea is to have the belly of the taper go right into the sink tip material. this will transfer the energy to the tip more efficiently than anything with a front taper. if you really want to get creative splice t-14 onto a section of floater (that 10wt you mentioned) that is a length of floater and t-14 that will come to 15' in length. i.e. 5' of t14 spliced to 10' of floater=15' of tip. 10' of t14 spliced to 5' of floater=15' of tip. this way you are casting the same head length of line with varying sink amounts. it sounds more complicated than it is. if you do an archive search you will find this discussed at lenght even with splicing directions.

if you are in the western ny area as your header says let me know and i will do my best to get set up with a good fishing rig for this area. pm if interested there are people in this area that have figured most of this out already and would be happy to help keep someone from the dark side of bobber and egg fly dead drifting :chuckle: we need as many people on our team as possible! good luck.

peter-s-c
11-27-2005, 09:00 AM
... what is a "cheater" actually cheating?
it is weight, length or something else?

why/how does a cheater work - anyone know?

A "cheater" is Rio's name for a short Tip 2. Basically, by cutting your Tip 2 into two pieces, you're creating two cheaters. I wouldn't cut up a multi-tip as there's already enough loops in it but if you insist . . .

Working from the back end, cut it at the 5' mark, leaving a 5' thicker taper and a 10' thinner taper. Then cut your T-14 into 5', 10' and 15' lengths. Use the 15' T-14 right off the belly, the 10' section off the 5' "cheater", and the 5' section off the 10' "cheater" This allows you to work with a constant head length of about 40' no matter what combination you're using.

For finer adjustments, get hold of some 12 wt. floater belly and T-14 or a 10 wt. floater belly and T-10 to make up a set of tips using this formula. The T-14 must be used with at least a 12 wt. floater belly to ensure decent turnover. The sinking tip can't be heavier than the floater section on a grains per foot basis.


10' of floater front taper for a floating tip
8' of floater spliced to 2' of T-14 or T-10
6' of floater spliced to 4' of T-14 or T-10
4' of floater spliced to 6' of T-14 or T-10
2' of floater spliced to 8' of T-14 or T-10
and 10' of T-14 or 10


With this set of 10' tips, plus the five foot cheater and the other tips, you'll be able to challenge most of the water situations around here.

If you go to the bother of making a set of 10' tips, I would recommend the Airflo head as it does a very nice job and there's no cheaters to mess with.

skip_scratch
11-27-2005, 12:15 PM
instead of cutting tip2 Peter would just adding 5ft of 12wt to the set of custom tips you list Peter negate the need for a cheater and possibly save tip2?

SSPey
11-27-2005, 12:27 PM
A lot of the Windcutters and Skagit lines have belly mass greater than a 12 wt.

However, the 8/9/10 belly is between 11 and 12 wt line. Use a level section of 11 wt line instead of the cheater.

peter-s-c
11-27-2005, 01:00 PM
A lot of the Windcutters and Skagit lines have belly mass greater than a 12 wt.

However, the 8/9/10 belly is between 11 and 12 wt line. Use a level section of 11 wt line instead of the cheater.

Two problems with that: Using the data on the Rio website, the 8/9/10 belly comes out to about 14 grains per foot and the typical 12 wt. is also around 14 so a 12 wt. would be fine. Also, if you drop down to an 11 wt. then you're trying to turn over T-14 at 14 grains per foot with a piece of line that runs a little over12 grains per foot.

In prior Windcutter discussions, there's been a lot of variance in Windcutter belly dimensions and weights. If you can, weigh and measure your WC belly. If the weight in grains divided by the length in feet comes out to around 14, then you're OK with a 12 wt.

A WC 8/9/10 looped to a 12 wt. line spliced to T-14, in grains per foot terms, is essentially level line. This probably won't be the nicest casting rig. While no doubt thousands of West Coast anglers happily chuck T-14 and medium-sized, lead weighted chickens with their 8/9/10s, a T-10 setup would probably handle nicer.

If you're fishing the Catt, I can't see T-14 be a "necessity" unless your fishing when it's high and murky. Airflo Custom Cut 200 tips are equivalent to T-10 if you can't find any. Ideally you want the belly section to be thicker and heavier than the tips to ensure good turnover and the reduce the need for you to force the cast. T-10 tips + 10 wt. floater section would definitely handle nicer.

I run 9' T-10 tips on my 7/8 Dredger and 10' T-14 tips on my 9/10 Dredger. I tried heavier stuff on the 7/8 and it was ugly. You will be able to handle T-14 with the 8/9/10 but there are probably better choices.

SSPey
11-27-2005, 01:34 PM
Peter, nice to see you've still got that fighting spirit.

I have cut, weighed, and spliced 2 different WC 8/9/10 lines. Not a lot, but better than nothing, better than theory and better than published specs.

I recommend to use an 11 wt level cheater off the belly, then 10 wt tips. A 10 wt tip will turn over the largest of flies.

The 8/9/10 can turn over 12 wt and 14 wt stuff, but its clunky, even with good technique. Forcing a square peg (T-14) into a round hole (WC 8/9/10 belly) will work if you jam it hard enough. THis is supposed to be easy and effective.

out

peter-s-c
11-27-2005, 01:57 PM
Peter, nice to see you've still got that fighting spirit.

I have cut, weighed, and spliced 2 different WC 8/9/10 lines. Not a lot, but better than nothing, better than theory and better than published specs.


out


I've owned a WC 8/9/10 belly as well, measured and weighed . . . not just theory. Remember what I said about production variances. If a WC 8/9/10 belly is made according to the published data then it's about 14 grains per foot. YMMV

That said, we are in agreement that an 8/9/10 WC is not the ideal T-14 instrument. T-10 would be a lot better.

I even question whether you should be bothering with Skagit for the Catt. One of my fishing buddies fishes the Catt a lot using my ex WC 8/9/10 belly and Rio or Airflo tips. He fishes Scandinavian style and does extremely well with it on the Catt. Anybody can turn their WC multi-tip into an instant Scandinavian rig simply by throwing Tip 2 in a drawer and forgeting about it. Run the factory 15' tips right off the belly and you have something that approximates the Swedish Loop and Scierra systems. In those systems, the bellies are longer and the tips shorter than the WC but the general concept is the same.

I fished my Loop 7116 the same way only using a WC 7/8/9 multi-tip minus Tip 2 and I really enjoyed the way it cast.

Something to think about.

peter-s-c
11-27-2005, 04:19 PM
One last thing.

When I make posts like the last few, I've worked out the numbers and compared it to actual lines that I've cut up for various reasons. My estimates are rarely out by more than 2% or 3%. As an example, I wanted to estimate the grain weight of the head a 9/10 Rio S/AS line as I wanted to reverse it and use it as a mid-belly light spey line. My estimates came to within five grains for the actual weight of the head -- less than 1% variance. It's pretty simple to reduce these lines to the numbers.

When someone says that such 'n' such a belly is between an 11 wt. and a 12 wt., the answer is, "Depends." Rio has made changes to the Windcutter line over the years plus there is a normal amount of manufacturing variation in the lines of any company.

To make matters worse, there's no such thing as a standard belly grains per foot weight for a 12 wt. line. AFTMA standards hold that the front 30' of a 12 wt. line weigh 380 grains. However, front taper length has a big impact on the average grains per foot of belly within that 380 grain limit. A DT-12-F salmon line with a 15' front taper has 15.2 grains per foot of belly while a WF-12-F tarpon line with a 6' front taper has only 13.5 grains per foot. Both these lines would weigh 380 at 30' but would weigh differently at other lengths. The AFTMA standard only requires them to weigh the same at 30'. A typical WF-12-F with a 9' front taper comes in at 14 grains per foot of belly and that's what I was using in my posts.

That's the problem with these sorts of threads when someone posts an opinion based on a limited sample or experience and there's no context to the information. SSpey's info could be dead right or dead wrong for someone else's situation, depending on the length and weight of the WC 8/9/10 belly being used, and the type of line used to obtain the 11 wt. and 12 wt. floater sections. Which is why I prefer to use the manufacturer's published data, AFTMA ratings where applicable, and my own tested formulas to provide opinions to these sorts of posts. From this basis, my opinions can be generally applied, verified, supported by actual data and provide some context -- something a "one of" example rarely can do.

skip_scratch
11-27-2005, 05:12 PM
well I just weighed and measured some of the WC peices. BTW this is the newest model WC purchased very recently.

The belly - taking care to not weight and measure the rear 3 ft taper - is 21.5 ft long and weights 19.6 grams which is 304 grains. So my WC belly is about 14 grain weight per foot.

The two heaviest 15 ft sink tips weight 10 and 9 grams. Which works out to about 10 and 9 grain weight per foot.

peter-s-c
11-27-2005, 05:33 PM
well I just weighed and measured some of the WC peices. BTW this is the newest model WC purchased very recently.

The belly - taking care to not weight and measure the rear 3 ft taper - is 21.5 ft long and weights 19.6 grams which is 304 grains. So my WC belly is about 14 grain weight per foot.

The two heaviest 15 ft sink tips weight 10 and 9 grams. Which works out to about 10 and 9 grain weight per foot.

Thanks for posting that info.

And a typical WF-12-F is 14 grains per foot, so is T-14. Essentially level line on a grains per foot basis.

Your tip weights also line up with the suggestions of using 10 floater and T-10 (ten grains per foot) to make the tips.