: Atlantis and Rio Outbound
07-11-2005, 07:30 PM
After waiting for the airflo 40+ beach lines for what seems like forever I finally broke down and picked up the Rio Outbound clear intermediate and sinking line (I 'm presently having a brain fart and can't remember what sink rate).This line is sweeeeeeeeet,120 ft gone with very little effort,I was using the Wulff triangle line before,so when I cast the rio the first time I basicly used the same amount of speed or power as the wulff line and quickly realized the rio line requires much less effort,one backcast, with a little line shoot and bye bye.Congrats to the people at Rio ,a great match up with the Atlantis.( One regret ,I wish it were longer like the Air flo I would like to see the extra 30 feet shoot out).Dig that drag chirp!!!! :hihi:
I can't agree more - these lines are spot-on for the Surf-tamer.
I also like the 10wt Outbound on the smaller Atlantis a lot but just got the 9wt to see if it gives me a little more finesse on the "all-arounder" for flats use. Since I always used a 9wt single anyway I am hoping to get the same stealth factor while sight fishing but with the extra gears when I need them in reserve.
07-13-2005, 10:28 PM
I'm using a 10wt Outbound floater on a Sage 8126. Now I'm wondering why I use a popper if I can't see where it lands!!!!! It will be awesome come fall coho time.
07-14-2005, 04:10 AM
....I also like the 10wt Outbound on the smaller Atlantis a lot but just got the 9wt to see if it gives me a little more finesse on the "all-arounder" for flats use. ...... It looks like the "9 wt" Outbound is on the order of 30 to 40 percent heavier than AFTMA 9 wt line specs.
Hi Greg -
Not sure if you were saying "good, bad or indifferent" with your comment; but I would add that these considerations to the mix:
- most common integrated head/running lines on the striper scene = 325-350 grain over 26-28ft length which is 40% over AFTMA used on 9wt single hand rods
- Outbound has 7.5 feet of the fattest part past the AFTMA 30' so it might be more AFTMA-compliant than today's most popular integrated lines
- most two-handers are rated for spey lines which in 9wt can be from nearly 600 to over 1000 grains over the head length
In conclusion, 40% over AFTMA on a 37.5 ft head is probably perfect for the single handed 9wt rods. I suggested that such a line might be called "quickfire" to Simon years ago, since a flats line must load reliably with a short line at the ready. It turns out the visual color change is the key as knowing it will load' is half the battle. I have not had the unloaded or over-loaded rod blues on the flats since I got the clear headed / bright running line combo on the reel.
But too short loading and the head turns itself inside out in flight, I am starting to believe that 38 ft is indeed the magic number.
I hope the 9wt won't be too light for the 11ft 9/10wt Atlantis. When it comes to chirping the drag with a full line cast the 10wt does it for me but the 9wt might provide the finesse match up I want for Monomoy.
Fun to find out anyway!
What size outbound for the 11 wt surftamer?
The one I've been using most is the DH12 (double hand rating). It loads the surf-tamer well and does not over-load it. It can be cast with an easy stroke and produces a powerful cast, or you can work on a tight and compact driving 2-handed push-pull loop for those 30 mph wind days. Very nice match up.
The DH11 also loads the rod with a 'type A' lighter crisper load. Greg Pearson thought it was a nice load, although his fine casting would accomodate a broad range of match-ups. He was throwing it a long way. My own experimentation with a lighter load recently revealed a lot of good things about two-handed overhead casting because it promoted the use of kinetic energy over a reliance on grains and I think it improved my stroke considerably.
It's a matter of preference and fly size - needless to say the DH12 will push a lot of feather and delivers that down-shift of effort with commanding results. I would have to say that if you are looking for distance, easy loading, and ability to move bunker flies or giant poppers then go with the DH12.
The remarkable thing about these lines is that the head does not flail even at such long distances, and like striperstripper I agree the lines could be longer and we'd have no problem exploiting it.
07-14-2005, 09:59 AM
As to the correct Outbound for the 1111, be aware that the grains have changed from some of the earlier prototypes some received before the lines were officially released in stores. So, for example, the original "12 Wt." prototype I got was 595 grains over 34.5 feet, whereas the current 12 Wt. production model is 510 grains over 37.5 feet-- a substantial difference. I called Simon to ask about the Surf Tamer and he suggested the production 13 Wt., which has 555 grains over 37.5. I have since gotten the intermediate and type 8 in this 13 weight configuration and it seems the right match for the Atlantis. Under the current rating, the 11 weight and even the 12 (at 465 and 510, respectively) might be a little light. Don't know for sure, Juro, but the 12 you tried might have been one of the earlier heavier ones. Doesn't 550 at 37.5 seem to be about right, while anything in the 500-600 range might be ideal for different casters?
As for the smaller Atlantis, I'd be curious about the right production model. I've considered getting that rod before, and I don't know what the "recommended" grain range is. Heads for the 9 and 10 are rated at 375 and 425 respectively, which sounds about right.
And, by the way, I agree about the AFTMA thing, which only rates the first 30 feet plus the level tip (usually six inches), whereas most commercial fly lines have heads in the 40 foot range. There was a long discussion not long ago on another FF board about the confusion AFTMA ratings create. Meiser's "grain window" recommendations for two handers is a great idea.
Now you got me worried, as most of the lines I have been using are developmental models.
Speybro - can you 'lay down the law' for us?
07-14-2005, 10:18 AM
I bet you got the heavier, earlier one like I did. The correct specs are on the RIO site for production models. Also, I bought one of those little $15 scales off of Ebay so I could weigh these things myself and I also got out the tapemeasure.
Try measuring the head on your prototype, and the $15 scale is well worth it. By the way, the 595 grain prototype casted really well too, I just like the longer head.
OK - I've checked into this and the lines I have are the 37.5ft heads weighing 600 grains, intermediate and sinking. The website lists them as 14wt lines, but I have been informed by Rio that they will be rated DH12 (double-handed 12wt) as far as Atlantis users are concerned.
The other line we tested was indeed the DH11 (listed on the website as WF13wt). The head length is also 38ft and the grains 555.
Depending on when the boxes were printed it will either be the WF14 or the DH12 rating, both will be correct.
To be sure, just ask the dealer to make sure they are giving you the DH12 or DH11 , which are 37.5ft and 600 grain or 555 grain respectively.
07-14-2005, 01:22 PM
Gotcha -- didn't know that they were going to have a two-hand designation for these things as well. Good to clear up any ambiguity so people don't buy the wrong size. Now, what size will work for the little Atlantis -- production 9/10 at 375 or 425 respectively?
07-15-2005, 12:06 AM
Hi Greg -
Not sure if you were saying "good, bad or indifferent" with your comment; but I would add that these considerations to the mix:.... Nothing particularly bad about it other than that we've pretty much got to the point that line ratings don't mean anything so either one must experiment or read a board such as this to find out what to use. I'd rather do the latter because I don't like the thought of paying for "experiments."
It turns out the visual color change is the key as knowing it will load' is half the battle. ..... The color change *is* very nice. One thing that I like about separate heads, tho, is that it makes it much easier to tell where you're at when you're fishing at night. Maybe Rio can add a short glow section, as they do with one (a few?) of their intermediate lines.
Maybe Rio can add a short glow section, as they do with one (a few?) of their intermediate lines.
That would be COOL (and probably safer too)
07-15-2005, 11:01 AM
Could you please list your Outbound line reccomendation for the Small Atlantis
I like the 10wt Outbound on the smaller Atlantis a lot but just got the 9wt to see if it gives me a little more finesse for flats use. The 10wt loads it fully and with a relaxed stroke (good path, progressive acceleration and high stop) the backing hits the strip guide. For surf, rips and general ocean shore fishing I would look no further.
More than half of my fishing is sight fishing on flats in the mid-day sun, and standard single hand gear in my home fishery is a 9wt single so I obtained the 9wt as well to test ASAP. I am hoping to get the same stealth factor while sight fishing as i do with the single hand rod but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, have the 'extra gears' when I need them in reserve with the All-arounder.
I will let you know if the 9wt is going to be specific to flats fishing situations on the rod or whether it works in the full gamut of scenarios (i.e. loads enough to make full line casts like the 10wt easy).
OK - spent a little time grass casting with the 9wt Outbound Intermediate on the Atlantis All-Arounder after work today. After having cast the 10wt on this rod in various fishing situations I wasn't sure how the 9wt would compare.
The 10wt loads the rod deeply and calls for a relaxed load/unload stroke. The grains really bring out the deep power in the rod and with a straight tracking acceleration the rod feels like it's going to jump from the hands when the end of the line is hit with a thud or a chirp. The rod is certainly not overloaded but is loaded deep and this makes the task of throwing big flies big distances a low-impact event.
Will it shoot the whole line? With ease.
Will it carry big flies? Absolutely.
Is it a serious SW beach line? You bet.
How would you describe the 'feel'? Deeply loaded, but not overloaded
The 9wt loads the rod very well and what's nice about it is that the caster feels more of the energy transfer in the loop than the grain weight bending the rod. In other words, there is more of that line in motion feeling rather than the weight in motion if that makes sense. It's crisper and let's the caster seek the more refined casting stroke. It requires better tracking since it's easier to force out of path. For those who are into casting, this provides the more intriguing toy. With a little practice, the energy propells the whole line out there with less reliance on the weight of the line and more emphasis on kinetic energy.
Will it shoot the whole line? Yes, with proper tracking and stroke
Will it carry big flies? I'd estimate as much fly as the avg 10wt single hand line
Is it a serious SW beach line? You bet.
How would you describe the 'feel'? A bit more technical - a caster's choice
I think this can be summed up just as the other Rio lines have been rated - Type A and Type B.
Where the (type B) 10wt provides an easy-casting long distance load on this rod and will push the fly out there a long way even without perfect tracking. It's a good choice for big surf, fast deep rips, etc.
The (type A) 9wt is crisper and lighter loaded but will still shoot the whole length while requiring the caster to track the stroke correctly. It encourages better DH overhead casting over time. I would use this for flats fishing situations, and it definitely provides extra gears for distance casting over surf and rips.
So depending on your preference, both will work on the rod but you'll want to choose depending on the application and preference.
I would venture that for a very light and crisp feel the 8wt would still work, and for a very heavy load the 11wt might be interesting, but the 9wt and 10wt are right in the rod's range just as it's been rated (9/10wt).
I will continue to use the 10wt in a sinking density for fishing bigger surf and deep fast riptides, or throwing bunker flies, etc. I will be staying with the 9wt clear intermediate / chartreuse running line for flats and part-time beach fishing during slack tides or when the sun disappears.
In any case they both cast really wonderfully on the rod.
07-18-2005, 02:07 PM
I'm using the 14wt 600 grain outbound,nice easy deep load with the abrupt back and forward cast stop finishing with the underhand snap .sweeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!
I agree on the new Outbound line for the Surf-tamer as well, like you say give it an easy stroke and let it fly!
(Per the 9/10 discussion I was talking about the 1109 All-arounder Atlantis, your Surf-tamer's smaller brother)
07-19-2005, 08:12 PM
What is the head length on the 600 grain outbound?
Juro, both lines side by side, would you pick the Outbound or Beach Tamer for the Atlantis surf tamer?
I think physics plays a role in this... it's becoming clear that 35-40 is around the minimum length where a head can reach distances of 100-150ft without losing it's waveform in the hands of mere mortals. Longer heads can do it but are less practical for strip retrieve style fishing albeit they are great for the swing.
As far as forming an opinion I can't say for others only for myself, but am really unable to make a valid comparison until I have fished both side by side. Thus far I have only been able to get my hands on the Outbound in the production config.
I'm sure they both rock but I am hesitant to say until field testing. There are several criteria involved the most important being the head config and flight characteristics but also running line, density (float/intermediate/sinkrate). Also each density behaves differently, for instance a floater bites differently thru the air and has less 'recoil' than a high density line. There are preferences involved as no two anglers cast, fish nor think the same. The final and most important is how it fishes, and the applications where one might accel over another etc.
As I have just returned from 18 days of fishing on the Cape I feel I can put my $.02 in. I used the All-Rounder and the 10 wt Outbound Lines. My intention was to see how the smaller Atlantis would fish on the flats - especially during the "technical times" of July.
I was prepared with a single-handed rod but was hard pressed to to actually use it. The All-Rounder proved sweet indeed. Especially since the weather's co-operation for optimum sight fishing was spotty at best, the ability to rock long blind casts when it was foggy/hazy/windy was invaluable.
As a tool for technical sight presentations it did take me some practice to overcome a few issues. The biggest one I had was not accuracy or even delicate presentation - but rather learning to extend the line sure-handedly when making short accurate casts. I had an annoying propensity to lose my grip while lenthening the line for a presentation (funny how it only happened while fish were swimming into the perfect spot!). This "buck-fever was annoying, but after a little while I mastered the two-hand line control and found that I was getting good shots (at least as good as my sketchy fish spotting abilities would allow).
I was reluctant to use the single-hander as I was unwilling to give up the advantages of distance on blind shots, as well as the ability to cast from my off-shoulder when the wind was wrong. I spent a large portion of my last day fishing with Adrian on North Monomoy in a 30 MPH wind. Adrian spent it casting "back-handed",while I simply cast cross-handed over my left shoulder with negligible drop in distance. This ability to cast with the wind blowing onto your wrong shoulder was also useful in sight casting situations. BTW back-handed or not Adrian demonstrated that fish-seeing skill is still the most important thing on the flats!
As for fighting fish, the rod was great, even the smaller fish put a serious bend into the rod (they have a long lever on you as well) at no time did I feel I was over-gunned.
In all, with a litlle practice in handling the line the All-Rounder is in my opinion an excellent tool on the flats.
I also used the #10 Outbound lines in both type VI and VIII at Big Girl and in the surf and while I can't (don't want to) get into technical casting stuff like Juro these sinking versions with their narrow profile rocked! Juro's comment that the line comes tight to the reel with a pop is true! Casting these lines to the backing knot was pretty easy.
07-22-2005, 01:54 AM
Bought it, snipped it, measured it. Here's the diameter profile of the Outbound 11 wt clear intermediate in 1' increments from tip to running line
to floating running line
that's around 3' of front and rear taper, with a long level clear intermediate line in the middle.
10-06-2005, 03:29 PM
what's the consensus on the outbound for the 1111? which outbound?
The 14wt intermediate outbound and then get the airflo beach tamer in d9. Those are the 2 best right now. The quick sinking RIO lines have horrible running line which I hear will be addressed soon but is OK on the intermediate lines.
Or get the full sink (D8) RIO and cut off the head and replace with airflos tactical running line.
10-07-2005, 05:34 AM
For what it's worth Rio told me that the 9wt Outbound Intermediate is 375 grains. Hopes this helps with your questions. FishHawk.
10-07-2005, 09:42 AM
10-07-2005, 09:50 AM
Is that line so heavy that it will be difficult to aerialize if there are any adverse wind conditions? Any argument for or against the 13wt on the 1111?
Thanks for the help.
Who has these lines in stock and is a sponsor?
Nah I thing the heaviness helps cut right through the wind. On windy days I bring out the big atlantis otherwise I useally fish the smaller one.
I have not cast the 13wt as I have been completely happy with the 14.