Is a pogie a menhaden, or what... [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Is a pogie a menhaden, or what...


jimS
07-02-2005, 09:24 PM
A Google search does nothing to edify my quandry. Pogies are supposed to be edible and large in size. Are they in fact different from an adult menhaden, or is the terminology used for more than one species?

One other species that has a nondescript name (I think) is dogfish. I belive this is a shark. Am I mistaken? I understand that this fish is netted in quantity and exported to the UK for the fish 'n chips restaurants.

nu-to-spey
07-03-2005, 10:43 AM
It is my understanding that Pogie, Bunker and Menhaden are all the same fish...anyone agree?? Different names along the Atlantic coast in different states.

Dogfish were small sharks (Squalis acanthes) in my zoology course at college in Missouri

Striper
07-03-2005, 10:49 AM
POGIE= Menhaden, Bunker, Moss Bunker. Same fish different naming conventions, all the same. There may be other fish as well that are referred to as bunker, pogie, etc. but the most common fish referred to as bunker, pogie is the menhaden. As far as Dogfish you are correct it is a small shark species of which I believe we have two main varieties. The smooth dogfish and the spiny dogfish and you are also correct they catch these fish out of Chatham for the fish and chips industry in England. I also think that some of the dogfish are marketed in asia for sharkfin soup and medicinal purposes.


Atlantic Menhaden: Brevoortia tyrannus

Distribution:Western Atlantic: Nova Scotia, Canada southward to Indian River, Florida, USA.

Family: Herrings, shads, sardines, menhadens; Found inshore in summer, but at least some moving into deeper water in winter. Adults are found in near surface waters (Ref. 38984), usually in shallow areas overlying continental shelf, in greatest abundance immediately adjacent to major estuaries (Ref. 4639). Juveniles are also generally pelagic, with smallest size groups farthest up river (Ref. 38986). Form large and very compact schools, both of juveniles and adults. Migrate north - south; also in and out of bays and inlets. Feed by filtering phytoplankton and zooplankton. High water temperatures apparently limit breeding. Spawn probably all year; nursery areas in estuaries. Larvae are pelagic (Ref. 38985), probably spend about a month in waters over continental shelf (Ref. 38983), entering estuarine waters at about 10 mm and larger (Ref. 844). Marketed fresh, salted, canned or smoked. Mainly used for production of oil, fertilizer and fishmeal (Ref. 188). Parasites found are isopods, copepod, cestodes and trematodes (Ref. 37032).


Atlantic Smooth Dogfish: Mustelus canis


Distribution: Western Atlantic: Massachusetts to Florida (USA), northern and western Gulf of Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, Jamaica, Barbados, Bermuda, Bahamas; southern Brazil to northern Argentina; also western Gulf of Mexico and Antilles (Ref. 26938).

Family: Houndsharks; Found on continental and insular shelves and upper slopes, ranging from shallow inshore waters and the intertidal to 200 m, occasionally down to 579 m (Ref. 244). Occasionally found in freshwater. It is doubtful that this species can live in fresh water for an extended period of time (Ref. 244). Feeds on large crustaceans, mainly crabs, but also heavily on lobsters ( Homarus ) (Ref. 244). Probably non-territorial. Off the Atlantic coast of the USA, this species is migratory (Ref. 244). Viviparous (with a yolk-sac placenta), with 4 to 20 young in a litter. Longevity given as 7 years (Ref. 775) but appears too low. Utilized fresh, dried-salted, and smoked (Ref. 9987).

Spiny Dogfish: Squalus acanthias

Distribution: Western Atlantic: Greenland to Argentina. Eastern Atlantic: Iceland and Murmansk Coast (Russia) to South Africa, including the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Western Pacific: Bering Sea to New Zealand. Reports from off New Guinea are doubtful (Ref. 6871). Eastern Pacific: Bering Sea to Chile.

Family: Dogfish sharks; Possibly the most abundant living shark (Ref. 247). An inshore and offshore dogfish of the continental and insular shelf and upper slopes (Ref. 247, 11230). Usually near the bottom, but also in midwater and at the surface (Ref. 26346). Often found in enclosed bays and estuaries (Ref. 247). Reported to enter freshwater (Ref. 11980) but cannot survive there for more than a few hours (Ref. 247). Schools mainly segregated by size and sex; mixed schools also reported (Ref. 247). Feeds primarily on bony fishes, also mollusks, crustaceans and other invertebrates (Ref. 247). The only species of horned sharks that can inflict toxins with its tail. Utilized for human consumption, liver oil, vitamins, sand paper, leather, fertilizer, etc. (Ref. 247, 27436). Eaten fried, broiled, and baked (Ref. 9988). Growth is slow. At sexual maturity, males are 60-70 cm long, females 75-90cm (Ref. 35388). Gestation period is 2 years (Ref. 36731).


FA Bisby, MA Ruggiero, KL Wilson, M Cachuela-Palacio, SW Kimani, YR Roskov, A Soulier-Perkins and J van Hertum, eds (2005). Species 2000 & ITIS Catalogue of Life: 2005 Annual Checklist. CD-ROM; Species 2000: Reading, U.K.

Adrian
07-03-2005, 12:03 PM
What a difference an "R" makes :)

Add an "R" and you get an edible Porgy - lots of varieties (familly: Sparidae )including Scup.

They hit flies too. :smokin:

Penguin posted a pic of one recently.

I've had them from a boat over deeper water but never seen one on the phlatz.

Peterson Field Guides: Atlantic Coast Fishes

jimS
07-03-2005, 12:51 PM
Thanks Julian, Mike and Adrian for the clarifications. Yes, Adrian, what a difference an "R" makes. I have never caught a porgy, but understand that it is good tablefare for both us and striped bass.

Striper
07-03-2005, 07:14 PM
Guy's,
I have had Porgy action around Plum Island and Fishers Island in CT. many times in the past. They were so numerous that I literally had schools of 50-100 fish chasing my one fly back to the boat. They are very fiesty fighters especially on the flyrod and I have taken a break in the middle of the day in the boat and just casted to them in the rocks out by Plum Is. I had a blast catching them and yes they are very good table fare as well as great bass bait if that is your thing. I personally like the shad for bait as the bass can't seem to leave them alone when you drop one down to them, blue sky bright sun and live porgy over the reef means BIG BASS! Have not had any run-in's with the shad this year still waiting. What I really want to do is try the bait and switch on them with a huge fly tossed to a riled up big bass, this will take team work and a bit of luck but I think it is doable and probably the only way to hook one of these monsters on the fly.

Cole
07-04-2005, 11:41 AM
I think in the south, pogies/menhaden/bunker are also called 'spot'...

jamie
07-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Not entirely sure, as I am not a big fan of fish and chips (UK style) but I think this is referred to as Rock in the chippies

petevicar
07-04-2005, 02:01 PM
In the fish and chip shops in England dogfish are called "rock salmon".

Pete

Slinger
07-04-2005, 07:05 PM
Just wouldn`t be the same, think of it, "Spineydogfish and chips". I know a guy who runs a comm boat out of P-town and all he does is set trawls for dogs and every one of his catch goes to the UK.
Slinger

jamie
07-05-2005, 04:39 AM
Thats it, send your ropey doggies over to Britain and tell em it's "Rock Salmon" (right....) sounds posh. The limeys will not know and will lap it up.

Adrian
07-05-2005, 05:19 AM
Two things the Brits do better than anyone else in the world:

1) Brew Beer
2) Deep fry fish

Once upon a time "Rock Salmon" was more expensive than Cod. Red Gurnard (a.k.a. Sea Robin) was even more expensive. Skates and Rays also commanded a good price.

jamie
07-05-2005, 06:07 AM
Adrian,

I thought that would have been curry and doner kebabs.

DFix
07-05-2005, 08:38 AM
I wouldn't worry about what kind of rock salmon was in my plate of chippies if I lived in a place where supposedly civilised people actively dine on Haggis :rolleyes: :razz:

MarkS
07-05-2005, 08:49 AM
Now we're talking delicacies!

My favorite is with a nice whisky white sauce!

Anyone seen the book

"How the Scots invented the world and everything in it"?

an entertaining take on history.

We had awesome fish and chips on our last trip to Scotland...whatever the species...didn't think I could be eating sea robin!!

mark

juro
07-09-2005, 04:18 PM
Tens of thousands of young menhaden cornered by stripers (boneclave)

http://www.flyfishingforum.com/chronicles/froms101/clavepics/morebait.jpg