Simms Price Fixing???? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Simms Price Fixing????


xcellheli
06-24-2005, 01:15 AM
I have been shopping around for Simms G3 waders and have been to about 50 different sites/retailers and everyone is $425. Has Simms fixed the price at the dealers?

If so this type of practice is not good for consumers. Oakley sunglasses has done this for years. Forbidding dealers from choosing the selling price.

I can afford the waters at $425, but we are talking principal here. Take just about any other cosumer product and you will find a 10-20% variance in price among different retailers.

Has anyone found a retailer that will give any discount off of retail for G3's, even if it is only $10?

sean
06-24-2005, 01:17 AM
Welcome to fly fishing. Everybody sets prices. Simms is not in the minority.

-sean

Steve_sullivan
06-24-2005, 11:29 AM
I have been shopping around for Simms G3 waders and have been to about 50 different sites/retailers and everyone is $425. Has Simms fixed the price at the dealers?

If so this type of practice is not good for consumers. Oakley sunglasses has done this for years. Forbidding dealers from choosing the selling price.

I can afford the waters at $425, but we are talking principal here. Take just about any other cosumer product and you will find a 10-20% variance in price among different retailers.

Has anyone found a retailer that will give any discount off of retail for G3's, even if it is only $10?


Why buy simms anyways? Buy ll bean wicked tough waders. They are 5 layer goretech like simms, only they have a lot longer warranty (to have your waders repaired for free), and are only $300.

PS: yes, simms is price fixing, but so is Sage, TFO, basically everyone. Since they havent got zinged for it I guess the anti competition laws dont apply to them??

MJC
06-24-2005, 11:30 AM
Buy a pair of D. Bailey's.

xcellheli
06-24-2005, 10:56 PM
I don't actually fly fish, nothing against the sport, but I am kind of glad after seeing the price fixing in the industry. I take a 5 day salmon trip every year in Alaska. We wear the waders from morning till night, then put them away until next year.

I had Dan Baily's and they lasted 3 trips until the seam at the boot started to leak. I then bought a $200 pair from LL Bean (not gortex, but well shielded with 5 layers) and they lasted 2 trips until the hind end seam started to leak.

I know I could patch things with Aqua Seal, but I am there to fish, not chase leaks. Most opinions that I have read is that the Simms will last the longest before leaking. I just want a pair that will stand up to more than 15 days of fishing without developing seam leaks. I have never punctured or torn a pair of waders, all leaks have been very slow weeping at a seam.

I am almost to a point of buying a pair or two of cheap Bass Pro or Cabelas waders at $80 and just disposing of them at the end of each trip. I have never had a pair leak on the maiden trip.

MJC
06-25-2005, 10:49 AM
There is nothing wrong with the Simms line. They seem to be the benchmark that all others brands are judged by. Patagonias are also right up there in quality I just feel the Baileys are as good as the previous two brands for less money.

No matter the cost there will always be some pairs of waders that leak and there will always be a lot of lesser priced waders that go a long time with no trouble.

You would probably get a lot more use from your waders if you used them continuously. In the situation you describe I think your last idea is a very good one.

Eddie
06-25-2005, 01:56 PM
There is an in depth discussion on the subject of "discounting". What is "good for the consumer" is debatable. Do a search on this site.
As for some of the alternatives mentioned: Cabellas, LL Bean and Bas Pro waders are not offered at -10-20%.
If you want the best, it costs $425. If you can afford the best, why bite your nose off to spite your face?
I am sorry that you don't fly fish. It is alot of fun.

xcellheli
06-27-2005, 12:23 AM
Thanks for the comments guys. Someday I will fly fish, it looks like fun, my buddy has caught salmon fly fishing standing next to me in Alaska and fighting on those spindly rods is a real kick. The up side is that I land 4 fish to his one on lures. I also fish Northern Pike and have been curious if thay would bite a large leach similar to the salmon on a fly rod.

I do understand LL Bean, Cabelas and Bass Pro do not discount, but the main difference is that they are the only retailer for their goods. Simms on the other hand sells mostly through dealers and that's why I question the price fixing. Usually dealers will play with margins to compete against other stores.

Steve_sullivan
06-29-2005, 07:22 PM
There is an in depth discussion on the subject of "discounting". What is "good for the consumer" is debatable. Do a search on this site.
As for some of the alternatives mentioned: Cabellas, LL Bean and Bas Pro waders are not offered at -10-20%.
If you want the best, it costs $425. If you can afford the best, why bite your nose off to spite your face?
I am sorry that you don't fly fish. It is alot of fun.

How do you defend your position that 5 layer goretech simms are better than 5 layer goretech ll bean?

Willie Gunn
06-30-2005, 12:05 PM
Consider yourself lucky to live in the USA you could be paying almost btwice that in the UK.

Buy Guides rather than G3s much nicer and better wearing IMHO

pescaphile
06-30-2005, 12:56 PM
Having owned both the guide model and the G3s, I must agree with WG. The guide model is the Simms wader to get.

That said, my next waders will be Dan Bailey's.

Count
07-01-2005, 07:53 AM
My thought is that you get what you pay for. Buy the best and be done with it. Simms makes the best waders in the world and their customer service is absolutely first-class. I agree that they're expensive, but so is everything these days.

My Simms guide waders are the absolute best investment I've ever made in my fly-fishing career.

I'd like to try the G3 models, but my guide-weights haven't worn out yet. I do like the thought of integrated gravel guards and handwarmer pockets. But in checking them out at the stores, I like the feel of my guides better. They feel like silk gloves.

Eddie
07-01-2005, 04:24 PM
How do you defend your position that 5 layer goretech simms are better than 5 layer goretech ll bean?

I'm not sure that I said that the Sims waders were better than the LLBean waders. But I think that they are. My Sims waders seem to last longer and my buddies that had Beans waders switched over to Sims.

In fact Beans replaced my friends LLBean waders with Sims waders. LLBeans has customer service that is hard to beat.

ashbourn
07-01-2005, 09:27 PM
Its called unilateral pricing. A company can call it that and they use the excuse that they dont want other stores to take advantage of customers. Bose is a great example, I worked at the very large retail store for 9 months and a few times got to talk to the Bose rep. Not one item could be discounted even if it was a open box, now this may sound weird but we have a agreement with Bose they we can send back any unit and we will get full credit. Dan Bailey has been known to do the samething. It is something that can not be helped too much because all they have to do is delay your shipment so the guy down the road gets the new products first or you can never keep a good stock. This ruins customer loyalty, as much as lower prices can bring in alot of customers if you dont have what they are looking for then you will lose to them to the shop that always has stock.
Where does the fault lie???
Well lets take Simms, they are at fault for trying to fix their prices and forcing it on the dealer. Its one thing to have a MSRP but to make it a set price is wrong. They will lose some dealers and customers but this does not seem to have hurt them too much yet.
And the dealer, WTF is with them??? A good shop will not take that from a company and if they do then have it for custom order only. I have a small shop and distributer got on us about out prices not being at MSRP, we responed with Suggested Retail Price, we did not like the Suggestion and marked some things up and others down. I have a dealer catalog that says that all items of some brands that I will not name must be priced at MSRP. There are ways around it like free items with or another item at a discount as long as the price of the brand does not change.
But there is one good thing, not a very good one but a good thing. If every shop has the same prices people will shop at the shop they like because of the service or the quality. As good as this sounds there are "evil" people, that do take advantage.

Sorry for the long winded response just a fav subject :)

Eddie
07-02-2005, 12:47 AM
"If every shop has the same prices people will shop at the shop they like because of the service or the quality."

And that, in a nut shell, is why set prices is good for the sport of flyfishing.

xcellheli
07-07-2005, 08:27 PM
"And that, in a nut shell, is why set prices is good for the sport of flyfishing."

Unless of course your goal is to increase the size of the industry. Set prices create barriers for younger people on a budget who would like to get into the sport.

Of course they can buy the cheap stuff, but that only turns them off as well when it doesn't last.

And of course if you open a new fly shop and want to gain market share discounting is not an option. Seems to me that set pricing is only good for the established fly shop owner.

With respect, I disagree with it being good for the consumer

There is always two sides to every coin.

Eddie
07-07-2005, 09:21 PM
If you don't think that everyone in the industry is interested in "growing" the sport, you are mistaken. There are two sides to every coin, but in this case this isn't a black and white, heads or tails issue. It's not that simple.
There was a lenthy discussion on discounting and the flyfishing industry. If you do a search on this site, the thread is called something like "does ebay hurt flyfishing" or some thing like that. Search "discounting".
In it, I think I do a pretty good job explaining how this industry works, but basicly, because of the small scale, fly fishing does not really fit standard retail models (like clothes, food, sporting goods, electric apliances etc.).
If you are really interested, you could check it out. You might still disagree, but at least you will know how it is.

Steve_sullivan
07-10-2005, 01:14 AM
I'm not sure that I said that the Sims waders were better than the LLBean waders. But I think that they are. My Sims waders seem to last longer and my buddies that had Beans waders switched over to Sims.

In fact Beans replaced my friends LLBean waders with Sims waders. LLBeans has customer service that is hard to beat.

And the ll bean were gore tech? (ll bean has non gore tech waders, just like simms does (freestone). Just making sure we are comparing apples to apples

Josh White
07-11-2005, 11:38 AM
This type of price fixing is %100 LEGAL... Under the Sherman Antitrust Act, a manufacutrer is allowed to set a price, and that if a certain retailer wishes to carry their products the retailer must sell it at the set price. It is a "take it or leave it basis" if the dealer chooses to sell the product at a different price, the manufacturer has the right to no longer sell to that dealer.

Josh
<non-sponsor link deleted>

Eddie
07-11-2005, 12:24 PM
And the ll bean were gore tech? (ll bean has non gore tech waders, just like simms does (freestone). Just making sure we are comparing apples to apples

Yes Steve...gore-tex. As i said befor, Beans makes good waders. Sims (apples for apples) imho are better.

Adrian
07-11-2005, 02:06 PM
As long as its not Illegal then I have no issue with a company setting a mandatory minimum retail price for their product. The laws of supply and demand will dictate whether or not they are successful. If not, they probably end up on Ebay.

The fact that Simms may be beyond the reach of some pockets isn't really a barrier to entry for folks on lower income - there are alternatives. Maybe you just have to pay a premium price to get real "value for money"? I would love to drive a top of line line sports car but make do with my Jeep Laredo :frown:

In terms of value for money, it sounds like Simms score very highly. I haven't tried them yet, but after the experience I'm having with another well known brand, I just might have to bite the bullet.

xcellheli
07-15-2005, 08:29 AM
Obviously as with any forum, there is no way that eveyone is going to agree, but the discussion has been great. This has been a good tread that has given me some other points of views. I still think in general, price fixing is a bad practice, but I also think companies have the freedom to run their businesses the way they like. I guess if it didn't work, they wouldn't do it.