Line Info for Atlantis Surf-tamer: [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Line Info for Atlantis Surf-tamer:


juro
02-06-2005, 09:22 AM
Update: line information to offer for the Surf-tamer (a work in progress):

The shorter the head, the less grains you can use effectively; thus for a 30ft head like the Wulff, under 500 grains loads it fine; for 35ft heads, the Airflo 12wt loads it fine; and for 45ft heads we are putting the 12wt DI7 at over 600 grains without a problem and with the Hardy Mach I 10/11 at 52ft we are easily carrying 648 grains.

We are also reaching casting distances 140ft and beyond with some of the specialized heads.

Lines I have tried and liked include:

Wulff 12wt tarpon taper (full line, 32ft head)
SA 12wt Intermediate (full line, 3* ft taper)
Airflo 12wt clear intermediate (std head config)
*New Airflo 40plus Striper Two-hander lines (avail 2005)
Hardy Mach I 10/11 full salmon line (52ft head)

SA 38ft shooting heads (38ft)
Airflo Clr and DI3-7 Multihead Shooting tapers (35ft)
Airflo DI7 Expert Multihead Shooting tapers (45ft)
Rio Scandinavian (cut to 38ft)

(I don't have the grains handy as I am typing this off the cuff)

I have plans to test additional lines in 2005 as my budget allows.

Optimum head length for my fishing applications is 35-40 ft, because this length can be fished best on the beach while not compromising flight characteristics too badly over 120'+ distances.

Most 11wt lines load the Surf-tamer on the light side, the Hardy Mach I and Spey lines being the exception. We rated the rod 11/12wt because it's more on the 11wt end of things for two-hander and salmon lines while being clearly on the 12wt side for typical single hand lines due to the above mentioned head length / grain ratios whereby longer can carry more grains given the same rod.

Andrew Moy, Tightlines Flyfishing (sponsor) casting in the Danbury Flyshow Parking lot...
http://cndspey.com/video/over_suv2.avi

wrke
02-09-2005, 05:38 AM
Juro
What size (wt) was the Rio scandinavian line?
Bill

juro
02-12-2005, 07:41 AM
Bill -

Ooops just spotted this Q...

I have the 9/10 cut back a touch for the Surftamer. I will bring the setup to ACKLINS for you to test cast in person... it's a rocket and might be the ticket for some crazy reef species.

wrke
02-14-2005, 12:08 PM
Juro
Cool. I also have the scando 9/10 w/tips (purchased last month for my ARC 1509). I'll give it a try later this week with the Atlantis while casting in the snowstorms for our Finger Lakes salmonids.
Thanks
Bill

Jazzman
03-28-2005, 10:49 AM
Any word on the availability of this line and who is carrying it in the North East? I tried one or two shops, but they didn't know too much about it, but I've also heard that it should be shipping around now.

Thanks.

Penguin
03-31-2005, 03:03 PM
You CAN'T have it! :razz:

Senior ScottMeister at the Bear's Den (one of our fine sponsors) was kind enough to send me the new Airflo 40+ Two-Hand Beach Line #11/12 Intermediate Sink...which I shall, hence forth, refer to as my Atlantis Long-Line...
...Thanks Scott!!! I love e-commerce... :)

The clear intermediate head loaded the rod nicely and the air superiority blue running line was slick and relaxed as it flew through the guides causing the signature tug (I love that little "chirp")...
I give it 1 1/2 thumbs up...my highest rating... :D

IMHO...Juro and the crew at Airflo hit the nail on the head with this one! :smokin:
Cost some ca$h but, if you wanna' dance, you gotta' pay the band!

Sort'a like the cherry blossom thing...I've picked tick #3 off Lucy... :eek:
...7 more and it will be time for me to stand in some cold water, wave a stick in the air, and wait for the tug on my Long-Line... :wink:

Moose
03-31-2005, 06:56 PM
I just got my hands on a 40+ Beach line, a demo lent to me. The line sure loads the Atlantis well, but although it is listed as a 35 foot head, this one taped out at 29' 9". The energy sort of blows right out the end of the line when you put the wood to her, I think it's just too short. Behaves well on shorter casts, but that's not the point, right? The bomber casts end up with the head doing some weird s**t in the air, like it's having violent spasms as it tries to roll out. Did this with 3 of us casting it, so I know it aint just me.

Penguin, did you measure your line?

juro
03-31-2005, 07:05 PM
Moose -

I received an earlier prototype with shorter head lengths but the newer prototypes are lengthened to suit the distances acheivable with two-handed rods. It's possible you received a first-round prototype (?)

What did you think of the running line?

Penguin
03-31-2005, 09:38 PM
The clear head measures 30' and the running line is 92'...
...despite mild dyslexia, that's 122'...and accounts for the end of cast tug...

The label stated 35' head 530 grains 150 feet total length...
I wonder where the "40+" enters into the equation?! :confused:

'Sounds like quality control strikes again... :rolleyes:
...and I get to call Airflo customer service in the morning... :mad:

Juro...Any suggestions?! :confused:

juro
03-31-2005, 09:43 PM
Only what I stated earlier.

BTW 122ft + leader to the chirp is one hell of a cast.

jfbasser
04-01-2005, 06:40 AM
The 40 has to do with years of same old and not head length.....I am currently thinking of joining in with Fred A and marketing some 40+ scotch to go with the line :biggrin:

Below is from from Airflo;

Recent fly rod design and materials have revolutionised fly rod performance and changed the way we cast.

Yet as a line manufacturer, the line rating system that we must adhere to was created over 40 years ago when many people still used rods built from cane or fiberglass.

Airflo realized that to maximize your true potential with modern fly rods, the flyline design had to be radically upgraded - welcome to the new Forty Plus line.

Ask almost any flyfisher what cast they would like help with and they will tell you it is the distance
cast. By taking the advantages of a shooting head and blending them into an advanced weight forward design, we have created a distance casting flyline for everyone.

Moose
04-01-2005, 07:01 AM
The demo line I have came via Red Shed, and Mike had called Rajeff's the day I asked him about the line (a week ago) and they sent it to him, brand new, clearly never used before I got it. Clear intermediate head, 29' 6" 552 grains. The construction and materials are top notch and yes, I love the running line, but the head length issue needs to be resolved. I think 35' would be a minimum, and if they wanted to style it specifically for the Atlantis like they advertise, it should be a 40 foot head to allow for the extreme distances the rod is designed for. Airflo lines are my absolute favorite for both single and double handed rods because of the tapers and slick line construction, but they have really had some issues recently with quality control over things like head lengths not meeting advertised specs and loop to loop connections that hinder a smooth energy transfer.

So close, yet so far!!

I hope they can resolve this, because they are closer than any other line manufacturer to having the ultimate off the shelf fly lines, IMHO.

juro
04-01-2005, 07:46 AM
Moose -

Well said. If you haven't already, you should forward your comments to Airflo.

A little background:

After trying the shorter head prototype, I found that putting a large (e.g. very large) wind-resistant fly on the line and relaxing the stroke threw the line very well and for a long way without running out of runway, but not all situations call for that approach.

(This makes me wonder if tying a l-o-n-g leader of very stout butt down to 20# tippet (commonly used on the beach) would tame the turnover and create the opportunity for more integration of monofilament into the line loop.)

Anyway when I put a more commonly used 6" saltwater fly and gave it any kind of stroke acceleration to overcome wind (a constant on the beach) the short head ran out of room per recent discussion. I provided feedback consistent with your findings to Airflo.

Airflo quickly responded with the longer head length per the description we see in their catalogs. I have not received my longer head samples yet either but having a lot of experience with Airflo multihead 35ft and 45ft heads I am completely confident that they will totally rock when such a head with the right grain load is fused with that killer running line. I heard they are supposed to be available in April; I'll check with Tim. This is good timing as the striper fishing on the atlantic gets really cooking in mid-May.

BTW - Tim also commented that they are coming out with a thinner version of that running line which I would really like to try. The one on the "beach line" sits in the stripping basket like a faithful bird dog but I am always looking for a shooting line edge, if the thinner one also lays well in the basket then it's the best of both worlds. And talk about low stretch!

So in summary my feedback was consistent with yours. A longer head length was the eventual design decision from Airflo (per the catalog).

Side note: I believe the holy grail would be a short head that does not run out of runway over 120+ft of distance because:

- it strips closer to the beach
- rolls out easier
- less susceptible to high dunes and beach grass (obstructions)
- supports sight fishing better
- defeats wind easier

I wish science would prove that it's possible to design a short head that could hold a loop for 100, 120 even approaching 150ft casts. However I think the laws of physics are the limiting factor not taper design.

I will post here as soon as I can get samples of the longer head lines.

Speybro
04-01-2005, 02:39 PM
Just thought you fellas would like to know that Rio has its own integrated shooting head that is being field tested now. There are a couple on the way to Juro to play with. No doubt he will give the board some honest feedback about it.

It's going to be available in early summer and is called the "Outbound". You'll see a series of ads for it soon enough! The #12 should be ideal on the Atlantis. It has a 37.5 ft long head, weighing around 550 grains and a total length of 120 ft. The taper gives it a very smooth casting loop, yet easily carries the biggest striper flies. Funnily enough Jim and I were casting it this morning and had on one of those very large Striper Dragon's flies on. Extreme distance was easy.....

Enjoy it Juro........ :lildevl:
Simon

juro
04-01-2005, 02:50 PM
http://flyfishingforum.com/images/happysnoopy2.gif

LIFE IS GOOD!

thanks Simon!

Jazzman
04-01-2005, 03:10 PM
Simon --

John H. mentioned that line to me, but I didn't realize it would be made with enough grainage to load the double-handers. Yahoo! What densities will you guys make it in -- floating, intermediate, sinking -- and will the running line be floating or int.?

(P.S. -- Isn't Jim supposed to be resting his gimpy foot for our Bahamas trip .... and he's got me tying all the flies because he's supposed to be resting ....)

Jonny from NYC

Speybro
04-01-2005, 03:50 PM
Jonnnny!

Hey man. Floating and intermediate have floating running line, the type 3, type 6 and type 8 heads have intermediate running lines.

I told Jimmy about your post and he just said "keep tying!!!".

Cheers
Simon

Moose
04-01-2005, 07:16 PM
Juro, your idea of a long, stout leader is very plausible, that and using a big fly should both lengthen the energy transfer path and deaden the overkill on energy exiting the end of the line. I will play with this (and poly leaders) over the weekend.

Speybro:
Simon, very glad to hear you are working on the 2 hander salt lines. I think this will end up being a very practical method of fishing not only beaches and flats, but rivers and delta waters with the proper rod weights. Hope to see these rods scale down to 7 weights eventually for river striper fishing. Also looking forward to the new video with this type of casting being covered.

juro
04-01-2005, 07:46 PM
On a related note I have heard from very reliable sources in the PNW that the "Atlantis 9/10wt is a perfect match with the Rio Skagit 7/8wt permitting easy Skagit casts to 100ft". I have yet to test this combination out myself and don't want to put the cart before the horse but based on the reliability of the source I will be all over it as soon as I can get these two together.

Moose
04-02-2005, 06:26 AM
Juro, are you going to be bringing the 9/10 to the SF Speyorama? I'd be very interested in trying that rod out.

I love the atlantis, but it is really overkill for the river fishing here, I intend to use it mainly in the surf where it will be perfect for the big schools that prowl the beaches in summer. I would like a similar rod to cast to stripers in the river. Most single handers here are using 7 and 8 weights to cast to fish that are a mix of 20 to 25 inch schoolies to fish nearing 10 pounds. The brutes over 10 pounds are few and far between. The 9/10 might be great for that, and I'd even like to see a 2 hander in the 7/8 range. I believe board member SSPey is building a 2 handed 11 foot 7 weight on a T&T blank. A rod like that would be a sweet river stick!

juro
04-02-2005, 06:55 AM
I will definitely have the rod at GGACC.

I think you'll be surprised at how light it is, keeping in mind that an AFTMA 9/10wt is well within the Spey 7wt range (new ratings not withstanding). In fact it loads perfectly with the 6/7/8 Windcutter with the mid-section removed. I have had a blast with every 'schoolie' I've hooked on the All-arounder and it did a fine job with 20# fish as well.

I like standard 9wt and 10wt lines on it while fishing the flats but switch over to a shooting head on the beach and let 'er rip over the waves. A simple spool swap is all it takes to convert from a finesse rod to a beach rod. I've used the 26ft integrated shooting head lines (Rio Striper DC, Cortland QD, Teeny, etc) and they load the rod well at 350 grains but those shorties can't keep the loop intact as far as the rod will throw the line (to your earlier point) so I have been using 35-45 ft shooting heads to comfortably throw 120ft all day, the less effort the better it flies.

On a related note - I am especially curious to check a report I got from a respected friend and mentor in Seattle saying that the new Rio Skagit 7/8 is a perfect match letting him perry poke 100+ ft with ease with a sinktip. Being an 11ft rod with that kind of ability gets me very excited about the possibilities as I am often feeling like the rod in hand on a given day is too long when I get into very tight situations. Just might be another dimension to support the "All-arounder" title.

Looking forward to hangin' out with the gang.

SSPey
04-02-2005, 10:53 AM
The T&T HS 1107 may work where 9/10 rods are too much. It was marketed as a fast action 7 wt single hander and likes 8 wt lines. It's not the same blank as their DH 1107 spey, although T&T did also build and sell it without fanfare as a 2 hander. Apparently all you had to do was think enough to ask, and T&T would readily accomodate requests to customize the build.

juro
04-09-2005, 12:30 AM
Simon -

What line weights do these new lines come in? I am still in search of the line that will make the lighter Atlantis (9/10) sing as well, and the configurations you mention sound just perfect for the angling application.

Meanwhile, I hope to get the 12wt prototypes onto the water ASAP!

Jazzman
04-09-2005, 06:48 PM
In case Simon doesn't answer, I think I heard that they're making it in the full range of sizes, so I'm sure there's a 9 and 10. Might be just the ticket for the lighter Atlantis.

juro
04-10-2005, 05:48 AM
Awesome, that is exactly what I wanted to hear jazzman, thanks.

A few years ago I approached most of the big line makers for this type of line, and at that time the market didn't seem like it would justify it. Thankfully Nobuo supported my ideas in the rod design, and the rod worked out great with shooting heads but we still wanted an integrated line out-of-the-box solution.

First Tim Rajeff saw that indeed such a line was needed and got the wheels turning, Doug Cummings over at Wulff provided a lot of support with his TT tarpon and Bermuda Triangle lines which are excellent, and now Simon's incredible new Outbound line will hit the streets soon.

I had the chance to cast the new RIO 'Outbound' 12wt intermediate yesterday

A M A Z I N G . . .

So I'm up to my eyeballs in tax forms and the like, and a box that came from Simon is drawing my attention like a sunny day does to a kid in school thru the classroom window...

Finally, I couldn't take it anymore so I put the Atlantis 1111A Surf-tamer together and tied a leader on the new Rio 12wt "Outbound" integral shooting head lines designed for two-handed casting.

I was too lazy to put it on a reel at first, so laid the coils on the grass after threading the clear intermediate head through the guides. With a quick flip, backcast and ZOOM! Out went the whole line and the running line out the tip top - I had to go fetch the line and thread it back through, laughing out loud.

I was going to tie it to my belt loop but after tuning into the line a little bit it was zinging out with such velocity that I thought it might yank my trousers off! :hihi:

The head has the grains, taper and a certain rigidity that makes it hold it's form over the full casting distance like nothing I've ever cast on the Atlantis before. The running line is very thin and shoots like mad and the super-bright green color helps a lot with visual queues contrasting against the clear head section. This is a line that makes 120ft (the length of the line) absolutely easy to reach with a practice cast or two. It seems the more relaxed you cast it, the further it goes!

I LOVE IT.

Realistically, it's a tad heavy for the rod for my tastes (type A) but wouldn't be heavy for everyone (type B). I would like to try the 11wt since I like a lighter line to let me feel the line in motion to create the energy a little more than the grain weight.

Side note: I have been practicing underloaded casting quite a bit lately to refine my casting stroke, try it - you'll be amazed at how much it reveals! For instance, I will put an 8wt floating FWF on the 1109 and work to throw the entire line to the backing. It's not easy, and it took me a while as the 1109 can take an 11wt in a pinch and is not loaded with an 8wt standard WF. In such cases, it achieves the feat by means of kinetic energy and nearly insufficient grains. Then put a properly weighted line back on and ZOOM!

Back to the Outbound...

The running line is a floater, and sometimes an intermediate cuts through an angry surf a little bit easier. It's color and shootability is great, provided it sits in the stripping basket faithfully between the easy moonshots. The running line's ability to sit in the basket despite oceanic winds is among the most important features of a beach line. Tangling must not be prevalent either, but that is also a factor of basket design.

120ft is so easy to reach with this line that I wonder if the line shouldn't be a little longer.

As a quick test before getting back to my duties, I put a chunk of a paper napkin that was in my truck in lieu of a big fly and it threw this big wind-resistant gob of paper over 100ft with just a flick. The thing was louder than a hummingbord flying by but it was no match for the Outbound! This is going to be fun with bunker flies when the big girls are in the surf :cool:

There is something really special about the head design on this intermediate line that addresses the #1 problem with most lines on the market today for two-handed casting - this clear intermediate head does not lose it's loop over the extreme distance casting that the two-handed rod allows.

Simon, Jim, I am truly excited about what you have done - simply an AMAZING line! I will contact you about trying the other lines. To complete this test I really need to try the 11wt rated lines, and I also would like to try the 9wt and 10wt versions on the 1109.