Has it been proved inconclusively that spring fish breed springers?? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Has it been proved inconclusively that spring fish breed springers??


TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-19-2005, 05:41 PM
We have had some debate on the Tyne regarding the Environment Agency policy of returning all fish in England and Wales before 16th June each year. Peter Gray at Kielder Hatchery reckons that springers do breed springers, but has no proof. Is it not possible that Salmosalar is infinately more adaptable than we realise?? Are springers not the Kamikazes (or to be harvested) of the species, their redds, if they survive to cut them, overcut by the late runners. This leads on to C&R, gone are the days of stale fish being killed but it would be surely acceptable to take one prime springer, the pick of the crop, to eat, share gift etc etc and put back everything, everywhere, from end of august??

Tyne Speycaster fishing in Chaytors footsteps!!

Willie Gunn
01-20-2005, 12:53 AM
Tulchan is a beat that follows the Spey Board recommendations that the first third fish etc is returned. Spring fish are genetically different from other salmon and deserve to be protected until there are enough to take a "crop" without endangering the species. The majority of spring fish are female and require protection.

At the present time on the Spey it is UNacceptable to kill any spring fish, although under the present rules it is allowable.

Gary W
01-20-2005, 03:41 AM
I have heard that spring fish derive from slow growing parr/smolts that are hatched in higher streams with less food availability. Hence, the slower growth rate. Perhaps there could be some truth in this - i.e. slower growth in the river, more time spent at sea feeding ???? This would mean that returning fish would seek out the same spawning streams and in turn produce more spring fish. Perhaps somebody else can provide clarification on this point.

As for killing springers; only if we have a sustainable run. I disagree with blanket catch and release but surely if an animal is endangered we should not be killing it for the pot. However, on rivers where they still allow the nets to kill fish(North and South Esk), is it fair to impose a ban on killing fish with rod and line.

Unfortunately, some fisheries managers/riparian owners/DSFB's have had to impose bans on killing of fish because a minority of anglers cannot be trusted to reap only the minimum that they require.

Would you be happy killing one springer if you caught three or four or more in a week, or all spring?

I usually kill one salmon a year for a special occassion, and return all the rest. If I caught a springer, unless on a river where they are in abundance, I think I would be returning it and waiting until summer for a grilse for the pot.

fcch
01-20-2005, 07:28 AM
Willie (et.al.),

Please excuse my ignorance, ... Are "springers" on your side of the Atlantic fresh from the sea spawners, or "black" salmon which wintered over in the river??

Thanx.

Gary W
01-20-2005, 07:47 AM
fcch,

Springer is the term used to describe clean fish which run earlier in the season. These fish enter our rivers approximately from January thru' May. They are usually in prime condition in terms of shape, colour and freshness from the tide. Because these fish run our rivers so early, they have a long wait in freshwater before spawning around November/December time.

However, their numbers have been in general decline throughout Scotland and many rivers have banned killing fish before June to try to conserve and improve stocks of these early running fish. It's understandable; if they were wiped out completely, we would lose five months of our Salmon fishing season which, would not only make me cry, it would hit small local economies hard.

fcch
01-20-2005, 01:29 PM
Gary,

Thanks,

They must become a mere shadow of their former majesty come december. Our adults arrive in late june and seem to evaporate before our eyes come august-september (weight loss).

Willie Gunn
01-20-2005, 01:59 PM
Tyne Speycaster Sorry for my abrupt answer this morning and welcome to the forum, my only excuse is it was predawn and I had a 31/2 drive to get to the Helmsdale. I am not at my best till the sun gets up.

I was speaking to one of the Spey Board scientists just to check that I was correct, he emailed me to say
<<On your query about spring salmon, the evidence for over-cutting of
spring fish redds with autumn fish redds is not there. Spring fish tend
to come from the upper reaches of large catchments of the Spey, and fish
in these upper areas (trout and salmon) spawn earlier (end Oct.).
Summer/Autumn fish come from areas lower down the catchment, and they
spawn later. So the possibility of a later-running, later-spawning fish
over-cutting the redds of an earlier-running, earlier-spawning fish are
remote. Nature will ensure there is some variation and overlap, but it
is the exception and not the rule.

There is plenty of evidence to back up both the relationship between
run-timng and spawning location, and time of spawning against altitude
in east coast Scottish rivers.>>

So in a nut shell the springers are not Kamikazes (or to be harvested).

Willie Gunn
01-20-2005, 02:58 PM
Willie (et.al.),

Please excuse my ignorance, ... Are "springers" on your side of the Atlantic fresh from the sea spawners, or "black" salmon which wintered over in the river??

Thanx.
Springers as Gary says fresh fish, we call black salmon kelts and they have a terrible stigma. Me I miss them when I don't catch any, there were very few on the Helmsdale today.

fcch
01-20-2005, 03:33 PM
Willie,

we call black salmon kelts

I was wondering about that too, but figured I'd wait instead of looking like a complete idiot :wink:

Willie Gunn
01-20-2005, 04:06 PM
Two nations separated by a common language. George Bernard Shaw

I used to wonder what kind of a fish a black salmon was.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-20-2005, 04:39 PM
Willie Gunn, no need to apologise, I'm the same at that time of a morning especially if I was lucky enough to be going fishing!
Your information (and Gary's) will prove invaluble at the next gathering of the 'fishmonger brigade' here in Northumberland.
The EA are rumoured to be thinking about introducing a similar C&R to the Spey on the English waters in the next few years rather than everything returned before 16th June. I really don't see how they could police it, we don't have keepers, gillies or boatmen on our beats, I suppose it would be similar to the situation at Aberlour? won't happen!!
To be fair the Tyne has quite a healthy spring run now but the problem of C&R till 16th June is that most anglers stay away till then and poachers have a free run on the springers we are trying to conserve.
I also had a bad experience 2 seasons gone in May on the Tyne, a beautiful 15 pounder on the fly, long tail sea lice, quickly landed, unhooked and carefully returned, kicked off strongly and then horrors, belly up being swept downstream. Managed to net the fish out, spent the next 3 hours trying everything to revive only to watch her die, I was devastated, we then had to push her into the stream and watch as she tumbled, flashing in the deep pool. I didn't fish again till the 16th when I could have the choice.
Anyway I personally think the Spey C&R has it right as long as everone adhers.
Thanks for the insight to Tulchan B I'm there for 3 days 31st March 2005, any tips or further insights/links would be much appreciated.
Tight lines
Tyne Speycaster fishing in Chaytors footsteps!!
ps Our Village club water here on the Tyne is the very same beat that is described in 'Letters to a Salmon Fishers Son'

Willie Gunn
01-20-2005, 04:52 PM
Rules are designed to be broken, if a fish will nor survive I would get out the preist. stupid having to release a fish to die. There are worse beats than Aberlour but I can not name them on a open site.

I'm sorry to tell you that you have little chance of catching a running fish on B beat on those dates.Graham Ritchie and I am fishing Dephur, then Tulchan D then Delphur again so we will ensure no fish get past.

I will post a few more notes on Tulchan B tomorrow but 7 hours drive + 7 hours fishing has had a strange effect on my brain and I cannot remember the name of then lovely pool that is shared with C beat on alternate days, worth checking you are on the right rotation.

Willie Gunn
01-21-2005, 03:40 AM
Tulchan B shares Spearnick with C beat if I remmember correctly B has it Mondays Wednesday and Fridays but I might be wrong. It is a lovely pool fished from the right bank, so practice that Spey cast with lefthand up. ( There is a high treelined bank behind you which keeps the sun off the water.) The pool just down from the hut Lodge Stream, fishes well off both banks, though the left bank was hell last time as the wind was downstream force 10 gusting 11 and the double spey loop kept catching the bank(no wading possible) I took a fish off the right bank though.

The next pool up, the Boat is a lovely pool to fish, with the stream just straightening the line nicely. I have only fished breifly 1 session above the island I remember them as nice pools, but having never taken a fish from them they do not make my heart leap as the others do.

Remember do not stand on the daffidils.

DaveSadowski
01-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Tyne Speycaster,

I personally can not see the EA spring fish policy changing for a long time.

The spring run on the Tyne - although possibly one of the best in England - is still quite poor. There are far more fish running the river in either September or October than there is in the whole Feb to June period.

There tends to be a good few reports of fish taken early in the season but strangely these tend to tail off as the kelts disappear. Don't get me wrong - i'm not saying that all the fish taken early season are kelts but it is easy for anglers to class the fish they have just returned as a prime spring fish when chatting on the banks afterwards hence giving a false impression of the number of spring fish running the system.

Good luck for the new season.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-26-2005, 07:22 AM
Willie Gunn,
Sorry for the delay but thanks for the info on Tulchan, looking forward to it, maybe you and Graham will let a few through but good luck anyway, its good to hear that someone is getting plenty of fishing in!!
Is Alan on Tulchan the same as the John Andrews video many years ago??
The new spey website looks promising especially if more beats join in, the photos of the beats really help to put you there, even in the office!!
I joined the spey anglers association last year, seemed a good cause but only time will tell, its difficult to get all anglers, especially game, together as one.

Dave,

Tightlines for 2005 also, wherever you cast your line.
If you were at the STA Dinner at the Falcons last November you would have heard the speaker, Paul Knight Director of STA state that a change was definately on the cards.
I would dispute the kelts for springers claim, its just not in anyones interest to make it up now that everything goes back, the anglers risk the riparian owners including kelts to up the rents if that happens.
The spring run on the Tyne from Hexham down is pretty good but with the lack of anglers pre June 16th who knows??

G Ritchie
01-26-2005, 08:18 AM
OK, we will let one through :hihi:

TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-26-2005, 10:48 AM
Graham,

Thanks you are a gentleman, one would be great

DaveSadowski
01-26-2005, 12:32 PM
Tynespeycaster

The EA measures were put in place in 1999 for a period of 10 years so I cant see a change of heart anytime soon.

Have a read of http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/fish/165773/510556/510814/?version=1&lang=_e

(You will have to copy and paste the above link into your address bar.)
Contains details of the Interim review into the conservation measures.

The only "true" evidence to support the spring run on the Tyne is the fish counter figures at Riding Mill - although there has been great debate regarding there accuracy.

Perhaps on some of the "better" beats from Bywell up over they might not be reporting kelts but on the lower - budget - beats ie Fed, BWAC who very rarely make there catches official for fear of rent increases I would say it is a problem.

I know of one person who had four "spring" salmon from Hagg bank fishing once a week during March. They never had another fish until september. Perhaps he was lucky or perhaps he was catching well conditioned kelts who knows.

I have had numerous conversations early season with anglers on the fed water which have went along the lines of :

Me: Any thing doing ?
Joe Bloggs : Nah not today but I had one on saturday and Billy had two plus another one last thursday.
Me: What spring fish or kelts ?
Joe Bloggs: I think mine might have been a kelt but I'm sure Billy said his were spring fish.

I recommend you have a run down Merryshields way early season and have a talk with a few of the heavy artillery brigade. You might just have your eyes opened.

Tyne fish counter figures :

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/103599/tynelatest_347299.doc

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/103599/tynecounts_307899.doc

Out of interest have you signed up for the EA log book scheme ?

Willie Gunn
01-26-2005, 12:46 PM
Dave,
Welcome to the site.
If you think you have problems on the Tyne where everything goes back, imagine the problems on the Spey where "anglers" ( I use the term loosely) can take every second fish.

Last year I heard a gillie being questioned when he unhooked a baggot and asked the angler to return it. "Are you sure young man"

On the subject of fishcounters the Spey counter has now been discontinued as it was decided it was too expensive to run compared with the information it was giving. An equally accurate measurement could be gauged from catch returns from some selected beats, both well gillied.

DaveSadowski
01-26-2005, 01:26 PM
Malcolm

Out of interest, roughly how big is the spring run of fish on the Spey ?

Info on the Tyne fish counter can be found at :

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/regions/northeast/411697/411974/302541/305108/?lang=_e&theme=&region=&subject=&searchfor=salmon+tyne

Willie Gunn
01-26-2005, 01:34 PM
The Spey Board estimate that in 2004 between 19 000-25 000 ran the spey up to 30th June.
As you can see they give themselves a 25% error rate so I'm glad you asked roughly how big is the spring run of fish on the Spey ?

DaveSadowski
01-26-2005, 03:14 PM
Thanks for that info.

For the same period last year the Tyne had a run of 5233 (1290 from Jan - May)and only 2444 (442 from Jan - May) for the same period in 2003.

Malcolm, Sorry to be a pain but do you know what % ratio the Spey board use to calculate the run of fish from the declared rod catches ?

Willie Gunn
01-26-2005, 03:33 PM
Dave,
Tagging studies carried out in 1991-2001 suggested that anglers catch between 15-20% of spring fish.
I cannoot understand with such a small run as 5000 that "anglers" could contimplate "taking one for the pot"

DaveSadowski
01-26-2005, 03:49 PM
Malcolm

Thats exactly why I can not see the EA relaxing there ruling anytime in the near future - and nor should they.

When you consider that the Tyne has one of the best spring runs in England it shows what a sorry state we are in.

Even working off the higher 20% figure - to help take into account fish lying in the 7 miles or so of river below Riding Mill - it would only put last years spring fish total from Feb until the end of May at 258 fish (88 fish in 2003). There is a bit of a jump in June but this coincides with the start of the main seatrout runs.

Bywell Syndicate reported just over 100 fish caught by the end of May last year so they must have had roughly 40% of the whole spring catch between Feb - May.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-28-2005, 01:57 AM
Dave, Willie Gunn,

Excellent points, only one problem, the data from the Riding Mill fish counter has proved totally unreliable, yet has been used time and again by the EA to their advantage.

Example, July, 2003, no water, drought conditions, thousands of salmon dying in the estuary, no Kielder reservoir releases, yet the counter recorded 6005 for the month!!

It has been suggested that they must have used public transport as they certainly weren't in the river!!

The % theory seems pretty good but as you say only possible on managed beats, we don't have that on the Tyne.

I agree that the EA won't scrap present legislation completely, the whisper was that 1 fish would be allowed via a tagging system.

C&R should be an educated choice, if we can educate those who need it!! but total lack of choice inspires poaching, the Spey and Tweed have perhaps the right balance.

Tyne Speycaster

Willie Gunn
01-28-2005, 07:53 AM
I will be bald soon with tearing my hair out.
Start giving anglers tags and they will start killing fish.
How many anglers( bear in mind the loose term anglers not fish killers) would return their first fish and only take the second? So you effectively have gone from 100% C&R to almost 100% catch and kill. Then add to this a group of four anglers, Andy Bill, Colin and Dave. A catches a fish and kills it using his tag but when he hooks his second he is quickly on the phone to B who then kills and tags that fish, etc,I'm sure you see where I'm going so at he end of the week the four friends all go home with a fish.

The Spey & Tweed at least have a few fish to play with the Tyne is teetering on the edge.

I cannot find a picture of the graph but it has a steep curve and an almost flat top, you can take fish from the flat top but as soon as you hit that curve your stock disappears at a terrible rate. Think of the Wye.

Charlie H does the Wye trust have a copy of the graph I'm looking for?

TYNE SPEYCASTER
01-28-2005, 08:11 AM
Willie Gunn,

Please, I would not want to be responsible for any hair loss!!

Tagging has been suggested as an alternative that apparently works for responsible game fishers, not the 'anglers' that you refer to.

We have to give some trust surely.

TYNE SPEYCASTER

DaveSadowski
01-28-2005, 09:57 AM
The fish counter stats have been widely debated as I stated in my original post. The general feeling tends to be that the figures shown are/can be over the top as you stated. The rumor was that during the period you mentioned there was a movement of dace upstream through the counter which were included in the figures. There has now supposedly been video equipment installed to try and give more accurate figures.

The other problem is that if the counter figures tend to be on the high side then perhaps the Tyne spring run last year was even worse than 5000.

My problem with the tagging system would be that yes perhaps the honest "responsible game fishers" would abide by the letter of the law but unfortunately not everyone fishing the Tyne comes under that heading.

I also feel that every fish returned is one more potential fish on the redds which is what the Tyne requires. What happens if/when we have another dry summer and we loose 2000+ fish again ? The Tyne is a recovering river and I feel every effort should be made to keep it heading in the right direction. If that means 100% C&R than thats fine with me.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
02-09-2005, 05:13 PM
Dave,

Were you aware of the Milner (or Milne) report of last year where the EA were trying to discredit the importance of the work done by the Kielder Hatchery??

This was because the EA had boasted that the Tyne was the best in England and other systems were pressurising for their own hatchery

Thankfully at present if we get more mortalities in the summer estuary the Tyne is covered by the Hatchery, then there is the New Tyne Tunnel construction to contend with.

Willie Gunn,

What is the general consensus on the Spey hatcheries??

Good or bad??

The Tweed has no hatchery and keeps getting quoted as the 'yardstick' in fishery management.

We have always said that given the habitat etc the salmon can more than look after himself, so do the hatcheries enhance or limit/restrict recovery??

When the runs are in danger I feel we must have the hatchery facilty to 'kick start' whether good or bad!!

On another theme, are you fishing the Spey opening day and if so where and more photos of the elusive springers please, it keeps us office guys sane, just!!

Pot belly pigs are fine, they work don't they??

Regards

Mike

Willie Gunn
02-09-2005, 05:39 PM
The greatest loss of fish is at sea. The scientists tell us that the river is up to max on parr, how they draw that conclusion, I'm not sure. I remember getting sick of catching parr whilst fishing, as a boy ,not now.
This year the Spey is to operate a smolt trap to see if the max potential smolts are going to sea, if so the river board are doing their job and the hatchery can be run down.
I am not 100% convinced by all the figures, in its prime the nets killed 20 000fish and the rods another 10k, now everyone seems happy with a rod take of 10k.

Hatcheries, I'm not a fan, genetics etc etc etc. Let the fish through to clean well looked after spawning beds, let the young fish have non polluted food supplies and hatcherys should not be necessary. BUT fishing is a business as well and if anglers are not catching fish a hatchery is good PR, a quick fix that is deemed necessary in todays climate.

Friday I'm on Wester Elchies for a week or so with a few regulars from here, Andy Wren, Graham Ritchie, Gardener (Charlie H) so we will try to produce a picture or two. I have the Spey supper to get through on Thursday night after a day on the Dee, I'm wooried this drinking will start to curtail my fishing, if I turn up late smelling of kelts may be I will not be invited next year.

Muckle Salmon
02-09-2005, 08:06 PM
I will be bald soon with tearing my hair out.
Start giving anglers tags and they will start killing fish.
Just a couple of comments from this side of the pond. With regard to "tearing my hair out" - been there done that :( - Malcolm can bear testimony to this. As to tags. The experience in Canada has essentially been that tags become,for most "anglers",nothing more than a quota to fill while allowing a rationalization for that killing. The true sportsman keeps or releases his catch based on his honest estimation of whether the resource is impacted by his decision. He then has to take into consideration the fact that he has to compensate for his less well enlightened brothers if the law allows them a kill. This concept of compensating for others has never allowed me to kill a salmon in all my years of fishing and limits me to killing ffewer and fewer trout each year. Education has its place and I endevour to do my best as many people do harm just through ignorance and once made aware of a situation will mend there ways. These people are not the problem. The problem is those intelligent, arrogant a@@@#$$#s who know how to catch fish but just dont give a damn. Over the years I have come to the opinion that the only solution lies in restriction/legislation as there are far too many who will take all the law allows and then make use of whatever loopholes are available to take more. As an example of this; In Newfoundland a liberal limit of grilse is allowed (if memory serves 6 or 8) on the mainland but 1 large salmon can be killed in Labrador. Therefore it becomes the highlight of the year for the majority of anglers in Newfoundland to head off to Labrador to kill their large salmon. In effect it becomes an entitelment.
I guess what I am saying is that choice works for the informed and well intentioned, and education works for the uninformed but well intentioned, but only the rule of law works for a fairly large minority (in some cases majority) with home we share our rivers.
Ramsay

TYNE SPEYCASTER
02-10-2005, 07:20 AM
Now there's a subject for debate!!

Scientists worry about genetics but the practical, experienced Hatchery Managers (Peter Grey, Kielder) are not, who is right?

It would be good to merge the practical with the theoretical rather than infighting (EA etc) and come up with a team effort for the good of Salmo Salar, the best of each world, dream on!!

Which Wester Elchies are you on, main (timeshare) or lower?

The main looks totally mouthwatering with lovely pools and woodland (John Ashley Cooper liked them), will you be using Sam's Badger or will it be too early?

Tightlines anyway, any pics will be great, spare a thought for those frustrated fly fishers bolstering the Chancellors coffers whilst you fish!!

Jealosy is a horrible thing!!

Mike

TYNE SPEYCASTER
02-10-2005, 07:47 AM
Just a couple of comments from this side of the pond. With regard to "tearing my hair out" - been there done that :(

Excellent points, I see now that tags may not be the answer.

However from the dreaded 'antis' point of view how do we honestly justify, if we need to, hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure, I am passionate about all aspects of my fly fishing and it now seems wrong to try and justify by 'cropping' one or two but what would you answer??

Mike

DaveSadowski
02-10-2005, 12:32 PM
Mike

I presume you mean this report Tyne Fisheries Report (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/105385/review_10.4_version2b_885710.pdf)

There are a few issues for the river to contend with in the near future - the new tunnel as you said plus its still to be seen how the sale of the hydroelectric generation at Kielder will effect the river with regards to release sizes/durations.

Are you participating in the EA log book scheme ?

Muckle Salmon
02-10-2005, 08:48 PM
Excellent points, I see now that tags may not be the answer.

However from the dreaded 'antis' point of view how do we honestly justify, if we need to, hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure, I am passionate about all aspects of my fly fishing and it now seems wrong to try and justify by 'cropping' one or two but what would you answer??

Mike
It would seem that this question brings us into the realm of ehics. (definitely not my strong suite) I would suggest that if "hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure" is justified by saying "well after I am done with that I will also kill said creature" then we definitely have a problem. I hope you dont misunderstand me. My position vis a vis catch and release does not originate from any moral viewpoint but is purely of a consevationist nature ( read self interest - If I felt I could justify it there would be considerable less salmon swimming up our rivers) . With regard to the 'antis' this is something that we really dont have to confront (as yet) over here. If it were I suppose my argument would be two pronged. First I would question whether there would be any salmon left if not for the efforts of the "sports fisherman" who are by far and away the greatest defenders of the species. Secondly I would question what harm we are doing to the species. As to any moral view they have on the subject, that is their business, not mine. I look at myself in the mirror every morning and I wish that all others could do the same.
Ramsay

Willie Gunn
02-11-2005, 05:16 PM
Wester Elchies not the Lower.
5 fish from the system full report later.
Too tired I had a late night with the Spey Supper last night. Too much drink after an early start fishing the Dee.
I have to admit that, that man is pouring whiskey into the Spey, but the piper is playing a lament

Strathglass Jaf
02-11-2005, 07:45 PM
First time posting the forum so Hello to all!

Couldn't help but comment when reading the wee bit about the new spey website. Had a look today and all looks good can't wait until more beats start to feature. It makes really good, if slightly envious reading, while sitting in the city!

Anyway, apologies if this breeches list etiquette for change of topic but the reason I joined the list was that I had spent some fruitless time surfing in search of info about conehead tubes. Fancy tying some up for this season and wondered if any Scottish/uk based fishers could point me in direction of a supplier of blank tubes/cones?

Had a day fishing one(gifted to me and later lost) at the tail and of last season and even although I never turned a fish all day the fly just felt that it was doing all the right things at the business end.


Cheers.

SJ.

Gary W
02-12-2005, 01:39 AM
Strathglass Jaff,

I've been toying with conehead tubes over the last couple of years. I started by using plastic tubes for the dressing, with a smaller diameter removable plastic tube for inserting different size, colour, style of coneheads. I found that it was difficult to obtain plastic tubes that were stiff enough. I also found that while the inserted tube may fit before tying the dressing on the main tube, once the dressing was wrapped onto the tube, this compressed the tube to a small enough diameter to inhibit the smaller tube from being inserted.

I have now found that removing the plastic insert from aluminium tubes and dressing on them, inserting the tube liner, slotting a conehead on the end, and touching both sides with a lighter to form a lip on the plastic liner works best. This does not allow you to interchange coneheads, but does offer a more durable, less frustrating solution. Just make sure that you do not set fire to the dressing when using the lighter!!!

Slipstream aluminium tubes and plastic tube liner, as well as a range of coneheads are available from most good fishing stores. Glasgow Angling Centre has all this material.

Muckle Salmon
02-12-2005, 06:07 PM
Wester Elchies not the Lower.
5 fish from the system full report later.
Too tired I had a late night with the Spey Supper last night. Too much drink after an early start fishing the Dee.
I have to admit that, that man is pouring whiskey into the Spey, but the piper is playing a lament

Malcolm. Keep it up and somebody is going to have to come over there and shoot you. THis is causing serious discord within my family as I am now seeing my father as a very evil man who dragged his poor unsuspecting children to a part of the world that only has a 5 month salmon season. I suspect that the only thing the piper is lamenting is that there is that much whiskey less for him to polish off. :lildevl: Trust me I know (my brother is a piper) if it wasn't for the drink there wouldn't be any pipers.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
02-15-2005, 07:00 AM
It would seem that this question brings us into the realm of ehics. (definitely not my strong suite) I would suggest that if "hooking, playing and releasing a beautiful wild creature for our pleasure" is justified by saying "well after I am done with that I will also kill said creature" then we definitely have a problem.

Sorry, I was merely quoting the old hunter 'argument' that was used in reply to 'Antis' that we actually culled and ate our quarry as opposed to playing with it.

Appreciate that you do not have that problem yet, but with hunting going here I feel we need to get our act together. Your other points re moral etc are well worth remembering.

Mike

TYNE SPEYCASTER
02-15-2005, 07:39 AM
Mike
There are a few issues for the river to contend with in the near future - the new tunnel as you said plus its still to be seen how the sale of the hydroelectric generation at Kielder will effect the river with regards to release sizes/durations.

Are you participating in the EA log book scheme ?

Dave

I believe that only part of the Milner Report was included, the full report was originally instigated by the then Minister after he received much correspondence extolling Kielder's virtues.
The report led to a fall out between the authors and the Hatchery regarding figures used, in fact the Hatchery refused to sign up to the report.
Kielder Hatchery as you will know was set up as mitigation for the loss of spawning due to the reservoir.
This mitigation, although not legislation, is imperpetuity, is funded 90% by the owner/perpetrator, NWL. The Hatchery is also currently running well below capacity on EA instructions.
I agree that the ideal is habitat and natural progressive spawning but as you mentioned the Tyne still has many problems future and present.
Therefore the Hatchery should be used as a 'safety valve' as well as mitigation and if the stocks are not required that year they should be used to help 'kick start' elsewhere. All in all hatcheries are good to have in this area/climate.

Yes I was part of the EA log Book scheme last year, however I am ashamed to admit that it was misplaced (I blame my tidy non-fishing wife!!) near the end of the season after religously fillng it in!

Mike