Proposal in Quebec [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Proposal in Quebec


speyguy66
01-02-2005, 07:36 PM
As many non-resident salmon anglers know, there currently is no law that requires us to either book through an outfitter or retain a guide to fish the many salmon rivers of Quebec. I think many of you may like to know that currently there are several outfitters in Quebec that have just made a proposal to the Government that all non-residents must either book through an outfitter or guide service to be able to fish any of the salmon river in the Province. I've been salmon fishing for over 15 years and have spent most of the last 10 years fishing in Quebec for a variety of reasons. One of which is the fact that I can fish on my own without a guide or the use of an outfitter. I spend up to a month each year in Quebec and although I may not fish every day, I do fish from between 15 to 20 days during my stay. To have to pay an outfitter for services that I do not need, I feel is unnecessary. It is not that I am against outfitters at all, in fact, my first few years of fishing in Quebec I had used the services of several outfitters to help me become familiar with the areas that I was fishing. Over my month stay in Quebec I will say that I do support the local economy by the use of hotels, restaurants and many other local businesses. Many of the towns that are close to the salmon rivers no doubt benefit from the non-resident anglers fishing in the area and although not depending solely on their business to be sucessful know that without them they would see a significan drop in sales. I know that the residents of Quebec are concerned with the large increase in the number of non-residents that have been coming out in the preseason lottery draws. This problem exists because of a select few individuals that are financially able to take advantage of the current rules and regulations. To my knowledge, this problem has been recognized and can only hope that it will be addressed directly and that all non-residents will not have to suffer because of the actions of the select few.

I truly hope that the Quebec government will not change the current regulations as it pertains to non-residents. I believe that the individual angler should make the decision to book through a outfitter or guide service if they desire, not make it a requirement.

I would like to hear any comments from residents and non-resident alike regarding this matter.

SpeyGuy66

Topher Browne
01-02-2005, 09:25 PM
The requirement to participate in the many ZEC draws AND hire a guide/outfitter would seem an undue hardship for ANYONE who wishes to fish "La Belle Provence" (Quebec).

For most Americans and many Canadians, New Brunswick is a lot closer. The Miramichi has more Atlantic salmon than all the rivers of the Gaspe' combined (and then some).

Muckle Salmon
01-03-2005, 12:29 AM
Oh god here we go again! :confused: I quit fishing Newfoundland for exactly the same reason. Who do they think fishes all the catch and release season. Not the locals and not the guys with money. It is the journeymen fishers (read; guys without money) that bring money to the local economy early in the season. It looks like it is time to start writing some letters. ANN HELP what can you tell us about this? It is not too long ago we had to write with regard to the native fishery. Are those addresses still valid? Brian, Charlie any INfo? With what I have learned in the past we have to get organized really quickly to make a difference.
Speyguy 66 where did you get your info. and have you confirmed this is the case?
If this is more than a rumour then we have to be VERY VOCAL if we hpe to continue fishing the Gaspe'.
Ramsay

juro
01-03-2005, 12:48 AM
Guys, the ability to pool our voices toward such causes is at the very heart of the Forum, in fact the power of community is one of the primary motivations for building this site in the first place. Absolutely lets use it where appropriate to send emails, communicate the core issues, and stay aligned.

I am certainly no expert in Quebec angling regulations and economic drivers but speaking just as a person who frequently has Gaspe' daydreams since a recent trip there, it seems to me that such a decision would hurt the economy of the area more than it would help as Topher pointed out.

I will watch as the conversation develops and be ready to set up easy emailing forms to help get more people involved, once we have the full story and names of contacts we will need to petition.

QuebecSporting
01-03-2005, 07:54 AM
Morning,
It is not a rumour, but a fact….not only (guides mandatory) but some want a % (of rods on some rivers) before the pre-season draws in order to accommodate their clients.

As SpeyGuy66 has mentioned:
Yes, residents of Quebec are concerned with the large increase in the number of non-residents that have been coming out in the preseason lottery draws. And yes, this problem exists because of a select few individuals that are financially able to take advantage of the current rules and regulations.

This has made all the Québec newpapers since November and still is!!!

I too think, non-residents shoud not have to suffer because of the actions of the select few.


As I stated before on another board
A guide or an Outfitter, should be a question of personal choice.
Some don't need guides and some don't have the budget for guides.
Some prefer guides and others like a luxury trip.
Fishing must stay accessible to all!!!
Fishing is about getting away from life stresses and enjoying yourself (alone, with a buddy or a guide....whatever!!). It's there for everyone...no matter who you are, "cast a fly" and make it your million dollar trip!!
It also gives the opportunity to some anglers to come with the whole famliy (at a price that works for them..) and stay longer and do other things in the area than fishing.

I also think this will hurt our economy (hotel, motels, restaurants, fly shops, gas station etc….)

It is great, we are seeing more kids fishing ……I am not sure some will be able to afford bringing the whole family if this happens.

Will this become a sport only for the Rich???
Are we returning to “Private Clubs?”

There is place for everyone, Outfitters, guides and anglers who want to fish on their own. The present rules and regulations are being reviewed (hopefully for the best!)

I think, It’s time to address your concerns.

This is urgent, rumour has it, a meeting is set for mid-February…..

Count me in!!!

Actually, I have already started my homework.........

I will not go any further in this discussion

http://www.QuebecSporting.com/Photos/IM001938.jpg
(Let's keep it accessible!!)

Ann

Salar-1
01-03-2005, 11:20 PM
Anne
I believe that both proposals ( req'd guide/outfitter and the percentage thingy) were shotdown at the "Table de Saumon" on Dec 5. A few,and I might add VERY few, members of the FQSA DID want to adopt the guide ruling for non residents and they were severely shot down. as was the idea to dramatically increase non resident fees .
Topher ,you're quite right about the Miramichi,HOWEVER you ,and I, as non residents will require a "guide" to accompany us on the river. Besides, give me a small run of TAKING fish anytime .
Cheers

juro
01-04-2005, 07:22 AM
I have heard from those in the know that this is no longer on the table, and we who love the Quebec fishery as it is will have nothing to worry about in terms of public fishing via current ZEC access policies.

It appears to be a false alarm!

Charlie
01-04-2005, 09:15 AM
Salar-1 & Juro,

I like your optimism about this whole thing. But I still think we should be on guard about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think the FQSA has the final say in such things. They can make a recommendation but the decision lies with the government. I think this is far from over.

I also heard that the Outfitter’s want 20% of the Draw water. If this happens Quebec residents would have a very difficult time getting good water for there own fishing. Just some things to think about.

Charlie.

Muckle Salmon
01-04-2005, 10:44 AM
I am with Charlie on this. It is a situation to be carefully watched. Too often things slide in the back door when no one is looking. A big hand to Speyguy 66 for ringing the alarm bell. :hihi:

Ray Blades
01-04-2005, 12:00 PM
Thanks Speyguy 66. If anyone has any more info please keep us informed.

Thanks again.

Ray

juro
01-04-2005, 12:16 PM
Perhaps I was a little naive in my wording, but based on the direct testimony of a member of the Outfitter's Committee to the Quebec Government "at no time was there a mandatory guide discussion between outfitters and the government".

However, there was discussion about how the draws are run, thus there is still cause for concern to your point. Thanks for pointing that out and as always the Forum resources are ready to help in any way to pull our voices together to important causes as this.

Smolt
01-04-2005, 02:29 PM
FYI, this topic was raised on another SAOL board as well as here. The latest comment there, which was posted by a fellow I know to be very active in salmon matters, was as follows:

"According to the FQSA ( Salmon Québec federation) after the result of their Fall survey ( Memory paper) (http://www.saumon-fqsa.qc.ca/Francais/accueil/presentation.html ) given to the Québec's Minister of Natural ressources, they don't propose any change for non-resident salmon fishing but they requested that this subject is [sic] discuss [sic] in the near future."

So, as some here have suggested, it appears the issue may not be dead, just asleep.

Salar36
01-05-2005, 12:11 AM
Well, this topic is becoming very hot. My first post on this forum. As a member of the board of the FQSA, I think I have to clarify some points.

There are a couple concerns in this topic.

Is the question of mandatory outiftter or guide has been discussed in the last "Table Saumon". Yes. Is there an official request from outfitter? I would say no (as a member of the table, I need to keep some discussion at the table level, you will all understand). But sure there is some representation to that. Is there any support on this? Clearly no. Not from FQSA. As far as I know, not from GRSQ. Would say no from FQF. The last survey was clear. A change on the legislation should be approoved by the partners, not only by a group of interest. But even if the FQSA has recommended not to adopt a legislation for a mandatory guide, any change in the Nova Scotia legislation on this issue may occur to a revision of this position.


Regarding the fact the Miramichi is having much more fish than all Gaspe rivers. Right. And it will always be like it. Just a genetic question. With 70% of grilse, the spawning result will always require much more fish on the Miramichi than in the Gaspe river's where most of fish are MSW , and large % 3years MSW. The capacity to support parr is proportional to thw watershed and the number of eggs received, not to the number of fish (all size included)...Restigouche is also in NB...and will never have the number of fish of the Miramich! Everything is question of choice...size of fish and kind of water!

I think your concerns are justified, and it is an excellent time to express them. Quebec province is now at the corner of a big transition. There are some politic pressures for different things. But there is something clear. Non resident are always welcome here. The residents are AGAINST any restriction on pre season draw for non-resident (the last survey showed that clearly), even if non-resident would welcome a pre draw restricted to residents...also clearly showed in the survey. The result of the last draw in Gaspe is something that should have never happenned, and everybody working in the salmon world in Quebec (including Gaspe Zec) know why. The required changes are on the way to be implemented.

The FQSA presented a "Memoire" to the government last december. It has been presented to the "Table Saumon" also. This document is actualy on translation to be available in english by the next 2 weeks. It has already received the support of the FQF (Quebec Wildlife Federation), and been subject to very good comments from the press. I would suggest to everyone to read it, and after, to support and/or recommend changes if required. The FQSA is an open forum.

I wish an Happy New Year to all the members of this forum, and hope to meet you next summer

Pierre Manseau

Salar-1
01-05-2005, 12:31 AM
Juro
The " way the draws are run"topic was and is being discussed, but not as is being depicted here and on SAOL. There is a VERY big lobby of anglers here in Quebec that wish to severely curtail outfitter/guide activity on our Salmon rivers .It has become a very heated issue .You can read the recommendations on the FQSA site that were made to the table de Saumon .Concentrate on articles (if I remember right) 80 through 95 and you'll get a jist of where things are heading.
I attended the FQSA meeting at which the guide for non residents issue was raised and the proposal was largely shot down.However there WAS a VERY small (3 or 4) and very vocal group of individuals who insisted on reviving the issue in the future. I do believe ,however, that a severe curtailment of outfitter/guiding activities in the future is definately in the cards for 2006.
Cheers

fcch
01-06-2005, 09:24 AM
Hi all,

My Bot just found this thread, so I'll jump in late.

I guess the question comes down to, What is fishing ??

Is it a right, a heritage, a privilege ?? And for who ??

I'm for reasonable access to ressources for (all) users. I'm also for the long term viability of ressource based industries.

IMHO, we need some "compromises" here. I think Ann says it best, "... Keep it accessible". Some Cat I rivers in BC have hurt local businesses as there is no longer a resident fisherie and the Big Cats that can afford the few Guide Services don't spend locally.

Accessible for who. Well all of us (resident and non-resident). Unfortunately Quebec LawMakers seem to prefer "wall to wall" regulations. If there is talk of mandatory guides, the gouvenement just might do that for ALL non-residents.

I guide part time, do I think this is a good idea?? NO !!

Gaspe Salmon
01-06-2005, 10:00 AM
Dear Anglers,

I would like to try to set the record straight on a few issues that have been popping up on fishing boards around the world in regards to accessibility on Quebec Atlantic salmon rivers.

Here are the facts:

1. On December 4th, at the annual Quebec Outfitters Federation meeting in Quebec City a motion was passed that stated the following: (The QOF would like to propose looking into the possibility of making guiding mandatory for all noble species including Black Bear, Moose, Caribou, Atlantic Salmon, Deer, and Migratory birds), considering that this is practiced in most other provinces and several states, not to mention many other countries. The reasons for examining this possibility are many but the two major points were of a social (employment basis) and for accessibility considerations. THE SUBJECT WAS DISCUSSED BY ALL OUTFITTERS (FOR ALL SPECIES) and WAS NOT ONLY PUT FORTH BY A FEW OUTFITTERS as some would have all of you believe. The proposition was to EXAMINE the impact, NOT adopt it right away. I am sure that it will be a very long time before it happens, if it ever does. So please do not lose any sleep over this!

2. In regards to the 20% of the rods available in limited entry sectors being asked for by outfitters, THIS IS ALSO INCORRECT as it has been stated. The facts here are as follows. Outfitters have not formally asked for any 20%. They have, however, asked that they be allotted some waters to promote so that they may have something to sell their guests, rather than go through all of the draws to secure water for their clients and overloading the draws with the names of potential clients. Something that has recently become a source of contention for many anglers playing these draws, especially by Quebecer’s, and with good reason, I might add. The requests we have made have been to allow us to work within the 20% discretionary rods that Zec’s are allowed to sell to meet certain needs in order to operate and this will lead us to limit our presence in the draw process, which in turn will allow a MUCH greater chance for all others to win in the lotteries. The actual discussion is coming from the FQSA as well as the government and the QOF.

Consider the following: by allotting some waters to the outfitters, the Government and FQSA (who were the ones who proposed this sort of solution along with the outfitters), and outfitters see a benefit for accessibility for all anglers but first and foremost FIRST NATIONS PEOPLES and RESIDENT ANGLERS, who, by the way, ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE, WHO ACTUALLY HAVE THE RIGHT to fish in Quebec. For ALL others it is a privilege! We should all remember this as we post our messages.

Why would allotting some rods, within the 20%, to outfitters, or another salmon promoter, increase chances for RESIDENT anglers and for that matter, non-residents as well? Simple, if these businesses are out of the fall draw, or are limited in the number of potential cards they put in for their confirmed guests, (on their behalf) then peoples’ chances of winning the draws become a whole lot easier, even if a small portion of the water is allotted to outfitters, and I do mean a small portion IN COMPARISON to what was controlled by them through draw picks in the past. Consider this for example: in the past years on some rivers up to 54% of the waters in controlled zones were being bought by outfitters and other interests for their clients. You ask again how did they do that? Easy… outfitters and other businesses who organize fishing created a demand through their marketing and sales efforts to finally put Quebec on the map as a destination. We took all of the mystery of draws that scared many away in the past and made it simple for them. Back in the 90’s and early 2000 period, Zec’s WANTED outfitters and other businesses to put in as many cards as possible so that they could bring in revenue and so that they could sell their water. Now that we have created a demand for salmon fishing on some rivers, (becoming a victim of our own success), they want to change the rules. Fine by me, but do we get rid of all the jobs that have been created just so that we can offer more accessibility to all anglers? What happens in an off year when there are no salmon? Who will be asking to fish then? Starting PRIVATE-PUBLIC-PARTNERSHIPS such as the government might be proposing along with some others at the table might be the best solution to guarantee that everyone will win in the end.

This is why we are all seated around the Salmon Round Table. To figure out what we should do, what is best for Quebecer’s who fish, and for those who WORK within this industry. There are SOME PEOPLE out there that would like to have you all think that there are a few select outfitters who want to CONTROL all the waters on our magnificent rivers. FALSE! BS! NO TRUE! SO OFF TRACK IT MAKES ME LAUGH!!!! All we want is to be able to run our businesses without having to go through a lottery system because we are sick of having the finger pointed at us in terms of limiting accessibility. PERIOD! We have employees to think about, investments to cover and a love for the sport and the species! We are not interested in control; we simply want to continue to run our businesses within a framework that will FIRST meet the needs of NATIVE and QUEBEC RESIDENT accessibility, then the non-residents. How this will be decided will be the result of the hard work put in at the round table discussions between the parties concerned.

Several ideas have been thrown around and proposed, both by the outfitters and the FQSA, who represent the interests of salmon anglers in Quebec. Their priority, first and foremost is for QUEBEC accessibility, as I have already stated numerous times. As intelligent people, the people involved in this process realize that this is an industry and that many jobs are at stake, as a matter of fact, a tradition is at stake as outfitting has been part of our heritage for as long as white’s have hunted and fished in this province! If we were to take outfitters out of the picture there would be a lot of angling available but a #### of a lot of people out of work. Maybe we should consider their needs and livelihoods before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Let’s get back to the RESOURCE of salmon. Now I am going to ask all of you to think hard about this, SALMON ARE A RESOURCE here in Quebec, just like trees, but they are renewable in the short term, meaning that many people can live off of this resource. In a perfect world we would all make 6-figures a year and would not have to worry about making money. Outfitters from around the world make their livelihood off the selling of big game hunting, trout fishing and salmon fishing. It is a simple fact. Why should Quebec outfitters be looked at like monsters for doing the same, when they have been doing it for over a century? The question comes down to the system and how things are divided. THAT IS EXACTLY what we are trying to do: find a solution to dividing up (sharing) the resource in a responsible manner.

Without going into detail, this is what is being proposed. First the 20% that everyone has been talking about has been around since the Zec’s have existed. It was allocated to the Zec’s as a means for them to be able to do business with existing private camps, or private property owners and then was later offered as a means to inject funds into certain Zec’s that needed to sell blocks of water to increase revenues. It is nothing new, just never really applied on most rivers. The FQSA seems to be of the opinion that outfitters and other legal businesses within the salmon world should have first crack at a PORTION of this so that they can continue to operate. IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY, 20% is A WHOLE LOT LESS THAN WHAT OUTFITTERS AND OTHER LEGAL BUSINESSES (there are some that are not legal, so beware) were winning in the fall draws, about 50% less even more in some cases. WE as OUTFITTERS are ready to take the hit just as long as we know what we have to sell each year! In two cases on the Gaspe, outfitters are not even ASKING for 20% we are asking that NEW rods be added to rivers where we can operate, which means that NO RODS AT ALL would go to outfitters out of the 20%. THESE ARE THE FACTS!!!! Even if we are outfitters, we are still OPEN TO THE PUBLIC! UNLIKE PRIVATE CAMPS who seem to be missing from this debate, but that is for another time. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that new sectors on some rivers were developed based on requests from outfitters, who know these rivers inside out, they would not affect the resource in terms of killing fish because almost all of the outfitters in our area practice Catch & Release angling. What about the non-reserved sectors? Do not forget that some of them are excellent! Outfitters buy access passes there as well and contribute to the river associations and Zec’s once again.


I can tell you that if we do away with outfitting there will be a lot of cooks, guides, shore-boys, managers, accountants and many others all earn their living from SALMON FISHING who will be without work! Any reasonable human being will be able to see that there needs to be a balance struck between accessibility to the resource for simple pleasure and employment for one of our poorest regions of Quebec. Another point is this; there is a REAL need and DEMAND for guides, outfitters and those who promote angling in Quebec. If there were not, we would not be having this debate. The question is how to balance all of this to meet the needs of the masses and satisfy the needs of the local economies and visiting anglers who wish to fish through an outfitter or on their own.

So the next time that people post about what THEY may lose, and who is to blame, I suggest that you get your facts straight, think about someone else but yourself and try to see the BIGGER picture and not get sucked into campaigns that tarnish peoples images and reputations. Give the process time and maybe you will all be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. I have put my entire life into this business and have worked very hard at trying to make Quebec a special place to come and fish. I am deeply saddened and troubled by the way this debate has started and I have kept silent throughout most of this bashing campaign. I have decided to break my silence with only one purpose, to better inform you all of what the REAL reality is. I know that this was long, and for those of you who read all of it I thank you and encourage you to call or email me at anytime if you want more specifics.

In conclusion, I know that there is a solution out there and believe me when I tell you that we are working to find one all together. The final solution will need to keep the interests of the Quebec Salmon Angler in mind first along with those of Native peoples, second will be the needs of our local economies that depend on this resource as a means of making their living and the last consideration will be for those who are guests coming to this province to fish. It is simple as that. I know this sounds harsh but it is no different from any other province, state or country who offers sporting as a business.

I welcome all comments and varying points of view, but could do without comments that point the finger at certain individuals, past events that are exactly that, THE PAST, as well as personal attacks pointed at anyone working hard to keep Quebec at the forefront of Atlantic salmon angling in the world!
Best to you all and may your rods always be frowning!

David Bishop

speyguy66
01-09-2005, 01:04 AM
First, I would like to thank everyone that has taken notice of my original post. I think that it is apparent that there is a fair amount of concern among non-residents on this subject, and for good reason. It was never my intent to start "rumors" nor point fingers at anyone, but merely to inform non-residents that indeed there was a proposal of the non-resident issue. Most of the information I received is from the Quebec Outfitters Federation website. Although the site is in English and French, the English section of the site does not contain the press release translation. One of the topics was the allocation of fishing rights on salmon rivers. On November 16, 2004 the FPQ made a recommendation to the Quebec Government that one way to effectively and rapidly fix the problem of more access for residents would be to make mandatory guiding for all non-residents. I find it ironic that it is some, but not all outfitters that are responsible for the large increase in the number of non-residents that have been coming out in the lottery draws by overloading them with names of "so called" potential clients. So how will this improve access for residents?

I agree that salmon fishing in Quebec is a privilege for all non-residents and for that myself along with many others are greatly appreciative. But keep in mind that we are also paying for the privilege by entering in the lotteries, buying daily passes and also membership cards to the ZECs. I am not saying this out of disrespect for residents or First Nation People, but only that we be able to have some voice on this decision. The two points that were given for this recommendation were first, to improve access for residents which I've already covered. The second point was to improve employment opportunites. One of the things that makes Quebec unique to Atlantic salmon anglers is the fact that they can fish on their own. If these anglers were forced to have to go through an outfitter, I think many of them might look elsewhere for their salmon fishing needs. I also think the benefit that non-residents have on local ecomonies would far exceed any gain by making them have to hire a guide or outfitter. One example is the following: I know of several salmon anglers that travel to Quebec for family vacations and spend part of their vacation, but not all of it salmon fishing. They enter the 48 hour lotteries and will fish for a few days. They support the local economy by using motels, restaurants, gas stations, etc., which fits in their budget, however, if forced to have to go through an outfitter would go elsewhere for their fishing/family vacation.

I would like to thank you for clearing up all the confusion as it relates to the 20% rule. I do, however, have several questions. First, who sits at the Salmon Round Table and are all interested parties represented fairly? Second, who would be responsible for how the 20% would be distributed or how the extra rods would be added to the reserved zones? Speaking for myself, I think that the 20% rule could work if done correctly and it stops outfitters from in large part from taking part not only in the pre-season draw, but also the 48 hour lottery.

I am sure that the popularity of Quebec salmon rivers over the past 10 years are not solely responsible because of outfitters, but by a group effort by many different interested parties. So I do not feel you are a "victim of your own success." I am not saying that outfitters have not contributed to the success of the rivers, because they have. What I am saying is that they have had alot of help from other legal interests. An example of this would be the three Gaspe Rivers which until a few years ago had no active outfitters operating. These rivers have continued to prosper through the effort of good marketing on behalf of the ZEC and also good old "word of mouth" efforts. Myself along with other salmon anglers I am sure do not want to see outfittes disappear. There is no doubt that they provide a very valuable resource, not only to salmon anglers, but also the local ecomony. I think one thing all Quebec salmon anglers are looking for is a compromise so that everyone can enjoy this great sport and then start to focus on the more important issue and that is the conservation of salmo salar and all the fantastic memories it has given us not only in the past but also hopefully future memories as well.

Dave, please don't discount these concerns as rumors or finger pointing. These are valid concerns that residents and non-residents alike are taking very seriously. Although I might not be "loosing sleep over this," I along with many others will be following this topic very closely.

Juro, I would also like to thank you for allowing this topic to continue. This same topic has appeared on other boards only to be censored or worse, have the moderator become biased to one point of view because of the controversal matter involved. No one is trying to slander, point fingers, or start rumors, but to discuss a very important subject.

I would like to see a continued discussion of this topic from residents and non-residents alike.

Thank you,

Speyguy66

billg
01-09-2005, 10:39 AM
I believe Dave did a great job in laying out the outfitter's perspective. There have been a lot of accusations and innuendo over the past few months regarding the system as well as the motives of outfitters. His lengthy explanation presents "the other side".

The 3 major outfitters (in terms of infrastructure, employees, and monies spent) on the Gaspe have not been historically supportive of mandatory guiding or outfitting for non-residents. In fact, 3 years ago there was a meeting in Bonaventure where the issue was brought up by the FPQ (again, in the vein of noble species as was the case this past December). I was not present but did have an employee there. The other 2 outfitters were against it as was I. Ironically, my former employee thought it would be beneficial to our business if that were the case because people would be forced to use our businesses. I agree with SPEY 66 and others in that many anglers would simply go elsewhere if there was a requirement for non-residents to use outfitters or guides. Needless to say, nothing was acted upon during or after that meeting.

The press release dated November 16 does NOT recommend to the Quebec Government mandatory outfitting or guiding. It is simply a press release stating that mandatory outfitting or guiding could be a solution based upon observation of other places that employ mandatory outfitting or guiding.

As an American who has been going to the Gaspe for 26 years now, I have a respect and appreciation for the rights of the Quebec residents and First-Nations members to have access to THEIR rivers. After residents and First-Nation members, who is next in priority with regard to access of Quebec's salmon rivers? As an employer of nearly a dozen people in one of Canada'a most economically depressed regions, I believe that the outfitters do. We are a legally recognized association with hundreds of outfitters across the province. We are there to buy water 122 days per season (not just during "prime time" or the early catch and release season).

The non-residents Do NOT have a "right" to these rivers; simple. Are they appreciated? Yes. Are they welcomed? Yes. Should they have a voice and decide what happens in Quebec salmon fishing? No. When people vacation or visit they do so as guests. I doubt that folks in NYC would allow Quebec residents to tell them how to run their affairs.

As to the question about the roundtable, ALL of the interests are represented. At the table are the following participants: the government, the Quebec anglers association, the Quebec wildlife association, the First-Nations, the zec association, and the Outfitters association. There is no guiding association in existence (they would likely be represented by the outfitters association if they were to form because theirs is one of the services of an outfitter.) I do not believe that there are any travel agents in the salmon business at this time (I believe they have an association). And, to the best of my knowledge, there is no non-resident angler association which presently exists.

Now, onto the underlying tone of this post. SPEY 66 claims "it was never my intent to start rumors nor point fingers...". Check back, then with the last sentence in the first paragraph. What other way is there to look at "overloading them with the names of so called potential clients". Wow! Nice shot. Who is being referred to here? What is meant by so called potential clients? How could a resident of the Great Lakes region be in a position to state this? Do you KNOW something? What do you know? This is nothing but a back-handed slap (sounds familiar from the other baord discussions.)

You state (I am paraphrasing) that before 3 years ago when I started outfitting on the 3 Gaspe rivers the zec Gaspe was doing fine financially. Wrong again. They have only been in the black over the past 3 years. They relied upon government money for protection subsidies to pay for guardians. Few people, residents and non-residents alike bothered to fish in August and September. It was outfitters like Dave, Glen,and I who pushed for August and Septemer fishing. Dave used to get the entire Cascapedia in September because no one wanted it. The society certianly needed his money. Now they don't. And you claim we are not a victim of our own success? Several years ago other rivers begged these guys for business. The 3 of us pushed to lengthen the fishing season on all rivers (the Malbaie River was open because it gets a late run of salmon) because we felt there was a great opportunity for everyone to benefit from this. Now, more and more people are showing up in the fall which benefits everyone. This has provided MORE accessibility for everyone. The reality is that with the marketing we do (t.v., newspapers, magazines, fly fishing shows) is that we are promoting the rivers to the world. And, as you know, they are open to the world.

I believe the solution will come from the 20% or some other reapportionment of rods on the rivers. These rods will be used for our clients. This will take our clients ("so called potential clients") out of the winter draws for the most part.

As a point of fact, roughly 90% of all anglers on Gaspe's 3 rivers are Quebec residents. That is not represented in the draw cards but that is the case for several reasons; catch and release on St. Jean, catch and release seasons on York and Dartmouth, many local anglers only participate in 48 hour draw because cards are 80% less money and each person is only entitled to put in 1 card per day (also, there is more accessiblity to 2 rod zones in the 48 hour draw than in November).

I hope this topic continues as long as the discussion is based upon factual information and does not get personal. It has not been shut down on any board that I know of. Certain individuals have been banned from a board because of continual personal attacks and unsubstantiated accusations and innuendo which had gone on for over a year. The moderator, in that case, had warned both privately and publicly against this type of activity (even resorting to putting yellow boxes under the user name for indentification pruposes) to no apparent avail.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

Gaspe Salmon
01-09-2005, 11:30 AM
Dear Spey 66,

In response to your post, please allow me to respond to what you wrote.

“On November 16, 2004 the FPQ made a recommendation to the Quebec Government that one way to effectively and rapidly fix the problem of more access for residents would be to make mandatory guiding for all non-residents. I find it ironic that it is some, but not all outfitters that are responsible for the large increase in the number of non-residents that have been coming out in the lottery draws by overloading them with names of "so called" potential clients. So how will this improve access for residents?”

The translation is incorrect as you state it. There WAS NO PROPOSITION offered, only that AT THE TIME, this sort of system was a QUICK FIX to some concerns on the part of the resident angler. Meaning, how could we fix this quickly. The issue was quickly shot down by all of us, as we know that A QUICK FIX of this nature is not in the best interest of anyone, including outfitters. Personally, I do not want to see my father, brother or other friends who fish here, have to hire a guide as they would in some other provinces BUT, if the folks around the round-table, remember we are 5-organizations, think it is best, then we are 1 out of 5 voting. I truly doubt that this has much support at the moment but the question will be examined from all angles. Again, for the time being I would not lose any sleep over it. I know that is not what you wan to hear but that is all I can offer. Nobody knows yet what will happen in the medium to long term, but in the short term I can assure you that it is not in the cards.

As for your mention of outfitters "overloading the draws"... where are you getting your info? Let me tell you how I work, and I can only speak for myself. When my guests call me, or before leaving a trip, I ask them if they would like to participate in the draws for the following year in order to secure water on certain reserved beats. If they say yes, then I tell them how it is done, tell them the cost of the lottery cards, tell them that I will be happy to handle the reservations on their behalf for a service charge. I DO NOT PAY FOR THEIR CARDS! They pay for the entries themselves. I then do all of the follow-up, telephone calls back and forth etc (which justifies the nominal fee I charge on top of the card costs)... FACT: This year I put a total of 13-names into one draw and 15 into two other draws out of the 100 or so clients I get a year. You call THAT overloading. Hmm... What is the difference between me helping someone with a complicated system, compared to them doing it on their own. Will there not be the same number of cards in the draw? Now then, allot a certain percentage of rods for outfitters to sell and you have that many less potential cards in a draw because those who fish with outfitters will be able to book direct a portion of their time. This will result in less entries in the draws. Do NOT THINK for one second that we are asking that we have enough rods to fill our lodges! This is not true, we would like to be able to have enough rods so that we can book about 50% of our business, meaning that some of us may have to reduce the size of our operations. As for the 48-hour draws, why should a visiting angler fishing with an outfitter be penalized and not be able to enter the summer draw, I do not see your reasoning here. Are they not equal to the guy who fishes on his own? If the angler books for 3-days of water held by an outfitter, why should they not be able to put in their name for the rest of the time they will spend here? Are they not the same as the visiting angler who fishes on their own?

“I am not saying this out of disrespect for residents or First Nation People, but only that we be able to have some voice on this decision.”

Do we as Quebecer’s have any say whatsoever in what the American states do with their resources? I didn’t think so. Why should non-residents have a say here? This seems pretty obvious to me that it is a mute point. I will say, however that the FQSA, DID indeed take the time and put forth the effort in their questionnaire last year to ask non-residents what they thought. Find me a similar questionnaire where Quebecer’s are asked for their opinion on how fishing or hunting should be managed in the US and I will happily retract my words.

“First, who sits at the Salmon Round Table and are all interested parties represented fairly? Second, who would be responsible for how the 20% would be distributed or how the extra rods would be added to the reserved zones? Speaking for myself, I think that the 20% rule could work if done correctly and it stops outfitters from in large part from taking part not only in the pre-season draw, but also the 48 hour lottery.”

The people sitting around the table are as follows: the FQSA (representing all anglers), the FQF (Quebec Wildlife Federation), Native Peoples, GRSQ (river associations), the FPQ (outfitters and others within the business), and finally the government. These ARE THE ONLY organizations that were invited by the government and they are the only organizations that are formally organized within the industry. Booking agents, independent guides (legal or illegal), or travel agents are not represented. The reason for this is unknown to me. You should perhaps call the government to find out more. You can call them at your leisure.

As for the 20%, it is not the only idea being disussed. I can assure you that OUR proposals, AND YOU CAN TAKE THIS TO THE BANK, ALWAYS consider everyone who uses the resource. All of our propositions take into account the needs of the First Nations and resident anglers first, then the needs of those who work within the industry (legal businesses) and then those of the visiting angler.

“I think one thing all Quebec salmon anglers are looking for is a compromise”

Darned tootin! We are ALL LOOKING FOR compromise! If you REALLY examine what we are all trying to establish at the roundtable is compromise. Cannot make it anymore clear than that.

“This same topic has appeared on other boards only to be censored or worse, have the moderator become biased to one point of view because of the controversal matter involved. No one is trying to slander, point fingers, or start rumors, but to discuss a very important subject.”

Fact is FINGERS and a whole lot more have been pointed at outfitters and individuals for quite some time now. Some Webmasters are fed up with certain people, (they can be counted on one hand), who have personal agenda’s and vendetta’s that they want to air out in public. These people have been blasting and SIMPLY MISINFORMING people about what outfitters in Quebec are all about, not to mention what Quebec salmon fishing is about. We, as outfitters, have suffered big losses due to this, not only personally but also financially. Most of us held our tongues in the public format for quite a while but enough was enough. It was about time that something was done about a few people who had sour grapes. I was victim of it long ago along with the other outfitters on the Gaspe Peninsula and I can tell you it is a crappy feeling to see innuendo and outright lies being thrown around when reading these posts. These attacks all come from the same place, everyone should be aware of this. The problem has been resolved on other boards due to the fact that the moderator was fed up with lies and accusations that were out of context and based on personal issues. I AM PREPARED TO DEBATE REAL issues but have NO INTEREST in getting into pissing matches with people who are frustrated because they cannot seem to find the right and legal formula from which to work within. If other interests would like to become part of this industry in a legal manner and have something positive to contribute all they have to do is start an association, if they have the support and do it! Continually bitching about this that and the other thing will not help or change this situation. As a matter of fact, it will only distance them from the actual decision making process. I can assure you that when all is said in done in this process NOT EVERYONE, including outfitters, may like the end results. This is the price of democracy. WE are ready to live with what is decided but will definitely propose solutions that take into account the interests of ALL parties. If you were to look at the propositions that have been put forth by some outfitters I think that you would never have posted your first post. Perhaps you need to be speaking to SEVERAL people instead of just those who share the same worries and frustrations. If you contacted some of us by phone or email, you might just get the REAL SCOOP. After all, isn’t the best source of information from those seated at the table? I am ready, willing and able to share with you most of what is going on and will be happy to speak with you anytime at all. It will be my pleasure to do so, as a mater of fact. Call me at your leisure.

Salmonly yours,

David Bishop

fcch
01-09-2005, 01:12 PM
Bill,

I hope this topic continues as long as the discussion is based upon factual information and does not get personal


Very well said.

Problem with any discussion about natural resource management is that there are many perceptions and emotions present. As a natural resource manager (forests), I work with many groups, interests and agendas.

To lay out who I am (and thus let people know where I'm coming from), ... here's abit about me first.

I'm the chief forester for a large forest company here in Lac St-Jean. On weekends and holidays, I guide for Atlantics and searun trout on the Ste-Marguerite River (Saguenay). There aren't (currently) any outfitters serving this river and I was called upon by the ZEC to guide once the local guides association closed down several years ago. This means that I'm an average "resident" angler for more than half of the time I spend on the river.

So what's my perspective on this issue ?? First off, in my opinion, I don't feel that mandatory guides (for non-residents) would be all that beneficial for business (on the Ste-Marg anyway). I have groups that will stay serveral days and profit from a guide's services for some or all of their days on the river. Others are return clients that don't "need" a guide. Then there are other return clients that would be able to guide clients them selves. (knowledge, expertise, character).

As to the question whether non-residents have a "right" to use Salmon waters ... well, IMHO, this question should apply to residents as well. Access to natural resources for ANYONE (including so called residents) is a privilege. Once one looks at it in that perspective, the discussions take a different tone.

The ONLY issue that is really important is how to manage the resource in a durable fashion that allows access to all interested users.

My 0.02 $ anyway.

Bugman
01-09-2005, 02:28 PM
I must preface this message by acknowledging the latest excellent post by Dave Bishop. Dave continues to be a voice-of-reason (IMHO) in this debate, and I find myself agreeing with many things that he says. In his last post, he also disclosed the information I’m asking other third-party agents to disclose – that is, he comments on what constitutes a ‘Client’ in his own business operation. IMHO, Dave’s ‘Clients’ are totally legitimate and I hope they did well in the Draws!

Hello, Jim Corrigan here. It’s funny how things go round in circles. I have avoided comment or inquiry on these matters for nearly a year, but I am prompted by the generally-enlightened tone of this year’s version of the discussion to re-ask the questions that have been at the core of my own (if nobody else’s) concerns about the Quebec Lottery systems.

I have taken several quotations from a posting by Mr. Bill Greiner on Jan. 9. 2005. I am not trying to single out this Outfitter, he simply asked the same question that has plagued me for a year or so.

1. “What is meant by so called potential clients?”

2. “This will take our clients ("so called potential clients") out of the winter draws for the most part.”

3. “I hope this topic continues as long as the discussion is based upon factual information and does not get personal.”

I sense that we have a great opportunity to get some factual information, and I DO NOT WANT this to be personal. EVERY outfitter, guide or agency that represents the interests of anglers in Quebec as a ‘third-party’ is most welcome to respond to my comments and questions.

So, I would appreciate learning more about the ‘Agents’ perspectives on the following question ...

For the purposes of entering the Quebec Lotteries used to allocate salmon water (Pre-season and/or 48hr), what, to you, constitutes a ‘Client’?

Speaking for myself, I would consider the following type of anglers to be ‘bona fide’ clients …

EVERY angler who consented in advance of the Lottery Draw in question to be represented by a particular outfitter, guide or agency for that Draw, AND has paid, or will pay, for the cost of the Lottery entries - whether they are successful in the Draw or not.

Such people have knowingly transferred their name, in advance, to be used by an agent that they feel is better qualified to represent them in the Lottery Draws. As far as I’m concerned, this is totally legitimate. Each of these anglers could have entered the Lottery on their own. Such clients have been persuaded, likely because of the excellent services they have received in the past, to use a particular agent to represent them in future business transactions with the ZEC systems.

Many anglers want this kind of service, and many agencies in Quebec have the expertise to deliver it. I applaud their efforts! If a particular agent has built up a large-enormous list of such clients – CONGRATULATIONS – you deserve to be able to represent those anglers that you have nurtured and encouraged to become repeat clients with your business!

Now, on to ‘Potential Clients’. If they fall into the category discussed above, I cannot see any problem – no matter how many of them may be represented by a single Agent.

I, for one, am concerned that the following type of entry is being made into the Lotteries. It may be that these are the ‘Potential Clients’ that are being referred to in other posts:

1. Someone who did not have prior knowledge, and/or did not give their prior consent, to having their name used in the Lottery Draw in question.

2. Someone who has not paid, or will not pay, for their Lottery entries. This includes both successful and unsuccessful entrants in the Lottery.

Now, I am not saying that this kind of entry has ever occurred. I’m ASKING third-party Agents to tell the Bulletin Board whether any of their ‘Clients’ would conform to my definition of a ‘Potential Client’, as given above.

Thanks in advance for any enlightening responses that follow!

Jim

billg
01-09-2005, 02:30 PM
Chris:

I believe that we are all fortunate to be able to have great resources like Atlantic Salmon. The key is to manage them well enough to make sure they are not only enjoyed by us but future generation as well.

We did a not so good job of managing our wild Atlantic Salmon here in the U.S. and hopefully our mistakes will be recoginzed by those who have self-sustaining runs and not repeated.

As I mentioned, as individual outfitters we had not traditionally supported mandatory uses of outfitters for the reasons you have mentioned. The envirnoment is now changing and that may or may not be part of a solution. Presently, there are proposals which have been discussed at the round table as well as outside of the rond table with various participants that do not mandate use of services by non-residents.

The important thing here is that there will be likely be priorities considered at the table and as Dave and I have pointed out, there does need to be priority assigned to users, even though the resource is not "owned" by any one or any group. All are welcome but it is important to understand the perspectives of the major stake holders; Quebec residents, First-Nations members, and Outfitters.

If you ever get down my way on the Gaspe feel free to drop by.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

fcch
01-09-2005, 03:36 PM
Jim,

As for your defn of clients, very well done. Helps to clarify things when discussions are in order.

I can't speak for any other group, but the only time I've ever entered a client into a draw is for the 48 hour. Some clients book services with me and ask to try to get onto limited rods sections (at the last minute). I'll enter their names (they pre-pay the lotery) and if they are drawn we go to that secter, if not they come anyway and we fish open rods sections.

I'd say they are bonafide clients.
Bill,

Will try to get out more. I'm kind of a creature of habit and don't get around much. Friends from Ste-Marg did the Malbaie for the last few seasons and had a blast. Heck, we have 3-4 rivers here and I only really fish one of them. :o

Bugman
01-09-2005, 03:53 PM
Thanks Chris!

For what it's worth, I'd say that your anglers were top-grade bona-fide!

For me, it's not about HOW or WHEN the client will pay, it's about INTENT. If the CLIENT'S intent is to enter the draw (as symbolized by an exchange of filthy lucre at some point :hihi: ), then you are providing a valuable and much-needed service to her/him/them.

I hope that anglers are encouraged by your practices and 'sign up' with Agents like yourself.

Jim

Gaspe Salmon
01-09-2005, 08:12 PM
Dear Jim and Christopher,

I enjoyed reading your posts... wish more people would take the time like you two did to post their opinions. Christopher, I agree with what you said, we are all privilaged to be able to fish for these noble creatures but I think you can understand why I had to break it down in a more concrete fashion.

Jim, you are correct, your definition is EXACTLY what I would consider potential clients. Until they win the draw, they may not decide to come. Even if they win, it may not be the right dates for them so they will pass.

Running any business on a lottery like this is difficult at best. A while back, when things were different, Zec's were calling us to buy the water, now that the playing field has shifted to more users, we need to figure out a way to meet everyones needs as much as possible.

Thanks for the kind words Jim, they are very much appreciated... nice to get positive feed back from time to time. You have obviously spent a lot of time pondering these questions before posting.

Best to you both,

David.

P.S. door is open to all of you out there who want to visit us on the Cascapedia to share a story or trade a fly or two!

fcch
01-10-2005, 08:11 AM
Dave, (et.al.)

Thanx for the invitation. The offer is open up here too.

I've only been fishing for Atlantics for about 15 years now, so this is still a learning experience for me, but one of the more pleasant parts is that the experience is 90% in the hunt, and not always the catch.

Always watch your fly ...

billg
01-10-2005, 10:06 AM
Chris:

Can you see fish in the waters you fish? My only experience fishing the north shore was on the Moisie and the Nippissis. Could only see fish in 1 pool from a very high bank.

Those are some big rivers unlike my home waters on the Gaspe.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

fcch
01-10-2005, 11:59 AM
Bill,

The Ste-Marguerite doen't have that fantastic GIN CLEAR water as you, but when the levels are normal, the water IS clear (but yellow).

We can see fish in most "real" pools from elevation. We've installed galleries and ladders on many pools.

http://www.njflyfishing.com/photopost/data/506/143Zone_2_002-med.jpg
Pool #24 Zone 4. Photo taken in low water without a polarized filter.
Renée Côté trying for monsters in mid August 2004.

Salar36
01-10-2005, 06:05 PM
Chris,

It is not Bras d'Alain on sector 2? Looks like.

speyguy66
01-10-2005, 09:23 PM
Bill, I never said that non-residents should be able to decide how any changes would be decided, but merely that we be able to express our viewpoints to the people that will make the final decision. If possible, perhaps it is time that a non-resident anglers association is formed. If it is possible to form an association, I recommend that a representative be present at the Roundtable (only give a point of view and not tell anyone how or what to do). What harm would this cause?

It is good to have on record that you along with Dave and Glenn are against the non-resident issue. I am sure that your combined influence will help a great deal with the decision when or if it happens.

As for the so-called "shot" you say I am taking at outfitters. I was only referring to Dave's post where he explained how some outfitters currently secure water for their clients, "they have however asked that they be alotted some waters to promote so that they may have something to sell their guests, rather than go through all the draws to secure water for their clients and overloading the draws with names of potential clients." In addition to Dave's comment there will soon be a press release translated into English posted on the web that comes from the FQSA. On page 49, paragraph 4 states "some organizations and individuals have flooded (overloaded) the draws with actual and potential names aiming to obtain a booking for two rods while knowing in the majority of cases the selected fisherman would not be present to obtain his reservation." I believe this to be a corrrect translation of this document, however, you can correct me if you think I am wrong. If this is not enough there has also been several articles found in Quebec newspapers that also confirm the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the purpose of the Quebec government to take back control of the salmon rivers from private ownership was to improve access to the public? How is it possible now that sometimes more than 50% of the rods in reserved zones are controlled by an outfitter? How is this improving access for the public? Dave also goes on to say that "this has become a source of contention for many anglers playing these draws, especially by Quebecers, and with good reason." You state a fact that 90% of all anglers on Gaspe's three rivers are Quebec residents, if this is the case why is there so much contention?

Also, I never said that outfitters have not played an important role in the success of the Quebec salmon rivers. But to discount all the hard work other interested groups (Saumon Quebec, Independent Guides and Writers, Chambers of Commerce, etc.) I feel is wrong Bill, you are no doubt missing the point of this discussion, no one is accusing you or any other outfitter of doing anything illegal. The point that I am trying to make is that there are some outfitters (not all) that are financially able to take advantage of the way the lottery draws currently work and that there needs to be a change on how this process currently work so that it is fair for everyone, resident and non-resident alike. Maybe the 20% rule or some form of it could work if done fairly and correctly. So my comments were never intended to be a "backhanded slap" as you called it.

Dave, thanks for explaining how you run your business as far as the lottery is concerned. I see no problem with how you do this and see no "overloading" being done at least as far as your business is concerned. I am sure that your clients are very appreciative of your services. There is no doubt of your expertise when it comes to deciphering how the lottery works. I think that the key is that your clients are paying for their cards and also with their consent. I also apologize, there is no reason that your clients should not be able to participate in the 48 hour lottery. Part of my concern in my last post as far as the 48 hour lottery is concerned is (and I am not saying that you personally do this) but how some anglers and outfitters will put names in the 48 hour draw of people that have no plans to fish but, if selected, will buy both rods and then allow the primary rod to go to waste. This seems to be unnecessary and also prevents full access to the river.

Dave, thanks to taking the time to address these concerns. Will you be attending any of the fly fishing shows in the States? If so, let me know because I would very much like to talk more about this topic in person.

Speyguy66

PS: This will be my last post on this topic. I think I have made my point and backed it up with facts. Thanks to everyone for their involvement, whether you agree or disagree, I appreciate your comments.

billg
01-10-2005, 11:00 PM
Spey 66:

I have no problem if non-residents wish to express themselves. I am not sure how one would form such an association, but even if one were formed I do not think it would be recognized by the Quebec Government as we are, the zecs are, and the FQSA, FQF, and First-Nations.

Further, since the Government established the round table and was also responsible for deciding who would sit at the table it is their choice to decide who sits at the table. I doubt that anyone other than the current participants will be invited to the round table; least of which would be a non-resident group. In fact, there are no business people at the table except for individual outfitters. I have heard that individual guides have asked to be present but because there is not a guide association that is recoginzed by the Government they do not participate.

This does make sense. Can you imagine that the Fish and Game Department in Montana would invite Quebec residents to a round table which included ranchers, outfitters, guides, and fly shops to discuss irrigation and access issues for the Madison and Big Horn rivers. I cannot.

Who can non-residents contact? They can contact the zecs they do business with or the Government directly and ask for their point of view to be considered.

As to Dave, Glen, and I on the issue of non-residents and guides/outfitters it is fairly simple. Our federation unaimously supports mandatory outfitting for noble species which includes Atlantic Salmon. Though as individuals we may not support this, I won't (I can't speak for them) push this issue either at the round table or through other channels. I have a personal opinion but whatever a policy decision might be is irrelevant to me. My #1 concern (aside from the preservation of the resource) is to secure access to the salmon rivers for my clients in order to continue to provide desparately needed jobs and stimulate the local economy. If it is decided that mandatory outfitting is the right thing, so be it. I will not argue for or against it.

As to the Quebec papers, not one of them ever contacted any outfitter or the outfitting association for comments or data. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, did they contact the river managers of the rivers whom they attacked. Their information came from a couple of sources who have had axes to grind. If you believe that the media always reports all sides of a story fairly and balanced then perhaps I could offer to sell you some great land that I have in Florida. Have you ever seen the press refer to the many jobs created by outfitters and zecs? No. Jointly we have been easy targets. Why all the attention and rhetoric? Some based upon jealousy (actually a lot of the mudslinging is a direct result of this)-- people who do not have resources to compete for market share or accessibility wish to find convenient excuses and then whip up a frenzy.

I believe that the outfitters association will be responding in the media to tell "the rest of the story".

Lastly, as to why people are not happy if 90% of the anglers are residents, it is simple. Some anglers in Quebec are concerned about the percentage of residents who participate and are selected in the winter draws. This is being addressed at the round table. But, there is a small number of people who are providing mis-information about the system and attempting to scare people into false conclusions. This has caused concern because of what has been stated but I believe that those at the table understand fact from fiction andI am sure that as the fiction continues to shown as just that there will be more tranquility than had been the case over the past year. As Dave said, most of this is coming from the same place and eventually it will stop.

In the meantime, enjoy the beautiful rivers that Quebec has to offer; and don't worry too much about mandatory outfitting for now. There are bigger issues to work out in the present and this is not on the discussion table. As I mentioned before, feel free to contact the Government or zecs (or both). If you buy your daily pass through a zec then you are their customer and they should take into account what your opinions are.

Bill Greiner

Salar-1
01-11-2005, 10:10 AM
Bill
If your federation has actually mandated the notion of mandatory outfitting for non residents on Qc. Salmon rivers.You ,Dave and Glen had better get together and nix this foolish idea right away ,as this would effectively kill 80 to 95% of nonresident ZEC clientele .There's a hell of a lot of REPEAT, and I'll repeat :cool:, REPEAT non-resident fisherfolk that come here to Qc. that DO NOT wish/require a guide/outfitter and MOST Qc. Salmon anglers support this. position ! That being said nothing truly equates canoe/guiding with an excellent guide such as the very knowledgeable Claude Bernard,the pleasant , very enthusiastic Steve Whiting,the Genteel efficient Marc Leblanc and the sublime wiley Dave Bishop. The very nature of the business you are in forces issues partly because of the personalities involved. :lildevl:
If, however Mandatory outfitting is mandated for on residents ,I as a minor Druid Diety will immediately pronounce all Qc. resident LICENCED Salmon fisherfolk as outfitters and we will gladly provide this service .No money will change hands ,however the non-resident will be expected to pay only for our daily fishing fees :cool: :smokin:
Cheers

billg
01-11-2005, 10:25 AM
Brian:

As I mentioned before the issue of mandatory outfitting/guiding is not an issue which I feel that I need to be proactive about either pro or con. I do not believe for 1 minute that it would increase my business. People book with me because of the product we offer and the service we provide. I cannot see people booking with me at the rates I charge simply because they can no longer fish on their own. Some of the small guiding businesses who offer just a guiding service may benefit from such a rule change. I am not sure that mandatory guiding has caused a proliferation of activity with New Brunswick Outfitters. It has, though, created money for individual guides.

The main issues that we as outfitters must deal with are accessiblity to salmon rivers and preservation of the resource. We certainly respect the right of Quebec and First Nation Anglers as well as non-residents. And, as I mentioned earlier to SPEY 66, it is the zecs who non-residents can turn to too weigh-in against these initiatives-- after all they are the clients of the zecs.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

Gaspe Salmon
01-11-2005, 11:50 AM
Brian,

First of all, you obviously have NOT READ the posts correctly. THIS IS WHY SO MUCH CRAP GETS stirred up! I BEG OF YOU, read carefully what we post!

Here is what we said regarding mandatory guiding in Quebec. Please refer to the quotes below. And PLEASE STOP interpreting and USE specific quotes when they are available to you. Doing otherwise is simply irresponsible and creates confusion, or is this what you would like to see, confusion?

"1. On December 4th, at the annual Quebec Outfitters Federation meeting in Quebec City a motion was passed that stated the following: (The QOF would like to propose looking into the possibility of making guiding mandatory for all noble species including Black Bear, Moose, Caribou, Atlantic Salmon, Deer, and Migratory birds), considering that this is practiced in most other provinces and several states, not to mention many other countries. The reasons for examining this possibility are many but the two major points were of a social (employment basis) and for accessibility considerations. THE SUBJECT WAS DISCUSSED BY ALL OUTFITTERS (FOR ALL SPECIES) and WAS NOT ONLY PUT FORTH BY A FEW OUTFITTERS as some would have all of you believe. The proposition was to EXAMINE the impact, NOT adopt it right away. I am sure that it will be a very long time before it happens, if it ever does. So please do not lose any sleep over this!"


"The translation is incorrect as you state it. There WAS NO PROPOSITION offered, only that AT THE TIME, this sort of system was a QUICK FIX to some concerns on the part of the resident angler. Meaning, how could we fix this quickly. The issue was quickly shot down by all of us, as we know that A QUICK FIX of this nature is not in the best interest of anyone, including outfitters. Personally, I do not want to see my father, brother or other friends who fish here, have to hire a guide as they would in some other provinces BUT, if the folks around the round-table, remember we are 5-organizations, think it is best, then we are 1 out of 5 voting. I truly doubt that this has much support at the moment but the question will be examined from all angles. Again, for the time being I would not lose any sleep over it. I know that is not what you wan to hear but that is all I can offer. Nobody knows yet what will happen in the medium to long term, but in the short term I can assure you that it is not in the cards."

Here is another example of getting people riled up for no reason! Get your FACTS, as you call them, straight! For goodness sake people what is going on here!

It is not a rumour, but a fact….not only (guides mandatory) but some want a % (of rods on some rivers) before the pre-season draws in order to accommodate their clients.

Where did you get your facts again? Why post something like this if it is not true?

What will this accomplish? The facts, are INCORRECT as they are written. WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR MANDATORY GUIDING for Atlantic salmon, the Federation wants to EXAMINE the issue for ALL NOBLE SPECIES. Are we so ignorant as to think that Atlantic salmon is the only species outfitted for in Quebec? Out of over 500-Federation members only about 18 of them are Salmon outfitters. Now then, does this SHED A BIT OF REALITY AND FACT FOR ALL OF YOU?

Comments such as the ones posted withing this thread are scare tactics that would like to discredit outfitters and make us out to be THE ONLY source of problem. We know that there are some things that need to be fixed, but let's talk about the REAL ISSUES without always making us out to be the CAUSE of the problem. Examine all of the regulation changes from the Zec's and you will find that many problems were caused by these changes. We have an OFFICIAL POSITION from the government that stated that WE nor anyone else HAS DONE ANYTHING illegal in the past and that the way we operate fits within the guidlines set by the zec regulations as they pertain to the draws at the present time and more specifically as they were in the past.

Now I will concede that the spirit of the regulations was stretched from time to time by individuals, guides, booking agents and outfitters, and this is where we are now. Trying to fix it for the future. During this reflection we are trying to see what the needs are for all parties, including the non-resident angler. How should we best manage the resource so that it is available to everyone. How this will be done is still to be decided. Who will make the decisions? The people invited by the government at the table.

For the record, EVERYONE around the table KNOWS what went on in the past, and it is now considered the PAST, whether it was an individual, group of individuals, guide operations, booking agents, outfitters, whoever. It is all being considered and we are trying to learn from the mistakes of the past.

WHY ARE SOME OF YOU CONTINUALLY BRINGING UP THE PAST? The whole point of the round-table is to put that behind us and bring forth a new and better system.

I am not so naive as to say that we should forget the past... get that out of your head right away. It is just that we have gone over and over and over and over the same darned subject and they have been clearly explained, but still some of you, perhaps you are too lazy to read all of the posts in a thread properly, feel the need to stir up the pot! Are you doing this because you really care, or, are you doing if for someone else? To make them look good and us bad?

Whoever owns this site, or monitors it, would do well to carefully examine this issue and decide if you want REAL debate, or, if you want to allow outfitters to continue to have to reiterate the same thing over and over again in their defense. I am not asking that you to take sides, but at least moderate responsibly and try to read between the lines from time to time and see that some people here have their own agenda's.

As for the outftitters, our AGENDA is clear. We would like to have access to water to sell our guests, so that we no longer are perceived to be a strain on the draws, we are willing to cut back CONSIDERABLY in the total amount of water we purchase which will lead to a lot more water available for everyone. Many of us do not agree with the idea of mandatory guiding for Atlantic salmon but need to consider the needs of all outfitters in Quebec and are willing to EXAMINE the pro's and con's of the issue. Our personal views differ and I have stated what mine is at the moment. We feel that our propositions will greatly increase accessability for Residents, non-residents, guide companies and others in the industry, as well as meet the needs of outfitters who are the major employers in this industry. Most of our propositions ask for NEW rods to be added, therefore we would not be dipping into what already exists at the time. If our propositions are considered favourably, we may just have MORE access to our rivers.

One last thing in terms of the 20%... this is NOT the only thing being discussed so be careful about what we say here. We do not want to panic before something is accepted. To my knowledge, nothing has been officially proposed or accepted at this time. Perhaps some of you who are posting and questioning would like to PROPOSE a solution. I know that I would love to hear about what you might see as a solution rather than bring up past points over and over again.

Hopefully I will not have to reiterate these FACTS in another post. I invite you to CAREFULLY read what is posted, verify your sources through the FQSA, FPQ, GRSQ, or the government. These are the most reliable people to speak with. Anyone who is NOT seated at the table is hearing things SECOND hand and you know what that can lead to.

POSTING your solutions to the problems would be more constructive than beating up on a certain part of the industry. Only my humble opinion...

Looking forward to seeing your posts regarding POSITIVE solutions in the near future!

Salmonly yours,

David
David

Salar-1
01-11-2005, 08:26 PM
Dave
I did read the posts and my reply was to Bill's 11P.M. 01/10/05,which DID mention the outfitter federation's stand.
Cheers

Salar-1
01-11-2005, 08:50 PM
And here is the quote
Spey 66:


As to Dave, Glen, and I on the issue of non-residents and guides/outfitters it is fairly simple. Our federation unaimously supports mandatory outfitting for noble species which includes Atlantic Salmon. Though as individuals we may not support this, I won't (I can't speak for them) push this issue either at the round table or through other channels. I have a personal opinion but whatever a policy decision might be is irrelevant to me. My #1 concern (aside from the preservation of the resource) is to secure access to the salmon rivers for my clients in order to continue to provide desparately needed jobs and stimulate the local economy. If it is decided that mandatory outfitting is the right thing, so be it. I will not argue for or against it.

e.

Bill Greiner
Cheers

Gaspe Salmon
01-12-2005, 10:10 AM
Brian,

When you read Bill's post, it does give the impression that outfitters are in favour of mandatory guiding but THIS IS NOT THE CASE, I believe that he may have typed his response incorrectly, or has translated, like others, incorrectly. Point is, I made it VERY clear what was discussed in Quebec City in December. I know that he was not there on December 4th and I was, so please allow me to once again clarify the Quebec Outfitter's Associaion position regarding this supposed mandatory guiding for non-residents.

On December 4th, at the annual Quebec Outfitters Federation meeting in Quebec City a motion was passed that stated the following: (The QOF would like to propose looking into the possibility of making guiding mandatory for all noble species including Black Bear, Moose, Caribou, Atlantic Salmon, Deer, and Migratory birds), considering that this is practiced in most other provinces and several states, not to mention many other countries. The reasons for examining this possibility are many but the two major points were of a social (employment basis) and for accessibility considerations. THE SUBJECT WAS DISCUSSED BY ALL OUTFITTERS (FOR ALL SPECIES) and WAS NOT ONLY PUT FORTH BY A FEW OUTFITTERS as some would have all of you believe. The proposition was to EXAMINE the impact, NOT adopt it right away.

The fact that you, Brian, call on us Glenn, Bill and myself, would tend to seem a bit unfair! That is a lot of responsibility to be putting on our shoulders, don't you think? I have stated my personal opinion. Your cry for us to nix this soon, confuses me. Will this make me a better Dave in your eyes if I do it? Or, are you suggesting that if it was our idea, we need to nix it. I think I was clear on my position and Bill was too.

Listen Brian, this just proves my point that things are written to discredit us and to make us look bad. All of us know that ANGLERS needs, rights, and interests are covered by the FQSA, not the Quebec Outfitters Association. You would honestly have me, Glenn and Bill go in front of over 500-members and say, uh well d'er boys, I think that we made a mistake in December by wanting to examine the question of noble species mandatory guiding. Sorry Mr. Caribou guy, sorry Mr. Moose guy, sorry Mr. Black bear guy etc... Asking THREE of us to change what 500 want to EXAMINE is a tall order but I will see what I can do!

IF YOU ARE SO WORRIED about this issue, then why don't YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I have tried to be fair, patient and honest with my responses but I can still see and feel some of you out there wanting to put the blame of all Quebec's problems on our shoulders. If this is the case, then will you take the recommendations that we will offer to fix the (perceived) problems? I certainly hope so.

I am still waiting for some of your suggestions on how to BEST manage the resource. I would really like to get something positive to come out of this thread, instead of innuendo and brining up the same old same old! We are at the NEGOTIATION stage Brian, not the BITCHING stage! That stage, has already passed for those at the table. Remember that those seated at the table will be the ones trying to figure this out over the next few months, so I strongly and respectfully SUGGEST that you and others, start to offer us suggestions, not ultimatums! I think we have all had about enough of the BS, LET's FIND A SOLUTION for goodness sake!

David

fcch
01-12-2005, 10:21 AM
Salar36,

The pic is actually the #24 in Zone 2 about 200 ft upstream from Alan's Arm. Lots of anglers confuse the 2 pools as they are both accessed from the parking lot at the Warden's camp that is at Alan's Arm (#23)

This is Alan's Arm (Bras d'Alan) taken from the parking lot and looking down river.
http://www.njflyfishing.com/photopost/data/507/143015-med.jpg

Salar36
01-12-2005, 11:20 AM
Thanks Chris,

Looking your second picture, water seems to be very high in the brook. Don't remember having seen the brooks so strong. But remember that pool was a very productive one.

Pierre

salmo52
01-12-2005, 11:34 AM
Gaspe Salmon,

Are you sure you don't loose any sleep over this subject ? It looks like a few more days of this thread and you're gonna have nightmares. :confused:

The only thing we want as resident is a fair representation at the november draw ( 43% of the best fishing days on the best rivers of the province for the residents and 57% for the non-residents is not what I call fair). This subject was discussed last year on two other websites but someone somewhere forgot that salmon fishing was not about grabbing but about sharing.

Regarding the mandatory guiding, I was at the Montreal FQSA chapter meeting last november and it is true that mandatory guiding was suggested by some members but it was not supported by the vast majority of the assembly.

Quebec residents have a tradition of generosity and all the non residents are welcome on our salmon rivers, not only the rich and wealthy, but the ordinary guy who will live here a fantastic experience for a very reasonable price.

The problem of the draw has to be settle soon because it's time we put this dispute behind us.

Have a fantastic season and try a glass of Macallan 25 years of age before you go to bed, it helps :smile:

billg
01-12-2005, 12:23 PM
SALMO 52:

I believe that what is frustrating Dave is the same thing that has frustrated many of us in the salmon world. Perpetual spreading of misinformation, playing the blame game, and orchestrated attempts to discredit people. Debate and discussion are fine and welcomed as long as they are constructive (the history of a small number of people has been anything but).

You are absolutely correct that things need to be changed with respect to the draw system. As a member of the FQSA you are certainly aware that this is in the works, and your federation is actively and constructuively involved.

You bring up an interesting point about accessibility to rivers based upon draw card percentages. This, of course, has been hashed out in other forums in the vein of "cheating, deception, grabbing (you have used this adjective as well), power trip", etc. The fact is none of these characterizations are true and they have done nothing to attract people to Quebec. The opposite has occured; people are tired of seeing that the system of salmon fishing in Quebec is plagued with problems and borders on being corrupt (thats what the posts insinuate).

If you want to look at why on certain rivers there are differences in the percentages of non residents and residents that is an interesting dynamic. Take all of the rivers that are opening to killing large salmon. The fact is that more residents fish them and more residents therefore submit draw cards. Go back 3 years ago and campare the difference between the Matapedia or Bonaventure versus the St. Jean which is a catch and release river. Open the St. Jean up to killing from June 1 tomorrow and watch the numbers change.

Add to that the fact that the GRSQ and zecs spend many thousands of dollars to market to non-residents (they will be represented in at leats 2 upcoming fly fishing shows in the U.S.).

And, the double edge sword ot Quebec not requiring nonresidents to hire outfitters or guides makes it very easy for anyone to come and fish. More people means more draw cards and more pressure.

Last but not least are outfitters and guides. We, too, participate (although that should change for 2006).

Clearly there are a variety of factors which influence accessibility on any given river. To state that there are issues with the draw system is correct. To state that outfitters or any other group is "grabbing" is not factual.

As Dave has said, let's spend less time bitching about the past and trying to take shots and spend more time on solutions. We are working on our own to present in a couple of weeks.

I challenge all that have participated to come up with their own proposals. To SPEY 66 who suggested a nonresident anglers association to get certain viewpoints made, use this as an opportunity to come up with a positive solution for everyone. That is where the engery should be focused at this time. We are all open to suggestions.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters

fcch
01-12-2005, 12:40 PM
Pierre,

...
Looking your second picture, water seems to be very high in the brook. Don't remember having seen the brooks so strong. But remember that pool was a very productive one.
Pierre

The pic is from this past September. It's misleading as Alan's Arm (the branch which flows into the mainstem from left to right) was actually low.

Yes ... a very productive and exciting pool. My avatar was "taken" there in 2002

This is low flow ... Marc Bergeron in august 2002 taken from the gallery
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chris_chin/2002/image008.jpg

Gaspe Salmon
01-12-2005, 01:15 PM
Dear Salmo 52,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your concern about my sleep... I can happily tell you that I am not losing any sleep from this subject, however, I am getting a good laugh at some of the behind the scenes workings to discredit us. (you are obviously not in this category)

The rumours and outright-created-lies posted on these boards are at root of why I have waded into the boards to respond. If you did not notice, I stayed out of it until it reached a point of being ridiculous. Now that I have waded in and have OFFERED the FACTS, I find it strange that many who started the controversey seem to be absent from offering solutions, they only continue to stirr the pot through others, who unfortunately have been victim of some of my rants. Oh well, for those in the know, the ones who will make the decisions, we all know what is REALLY going on! For those who have been pointed out as stirring the pot, I am sorry that you have been caught up in this, and that some of you have been soured, as you say, about continuing in the converstation, but this is the price to pay of aligning with people who have personal score's to settle and who have been spreading false information about our province. Do you think for one minute that the government and others really care about what we exchange here on the BB? Think again if the anwer is yes. I am only responding because I am sick of the lies and want to share the REAL story with others.

It would be really nice if these people (the one's who get others to start these topics) would offer suggestions on how to make the system work, before it is too late. Continually bitching about what we already know needs to be fixed, does not help anyone. So, once again I throw out the welcome mat to anyone who has suggestions. I have made several within my organization and welcome the ideas of others to incorporate into our work in progress.

Thanks for your input. You are correct, we need to take care of the draws first! Although I would really like to offer what we will be suggesting at the round-table, I simply cannot out of respect for all who will be hearing it soon enough. It is a work in progress but the GRANDE LIGNES have been suggested and will be offered soon!

What I CAN TELL YOU is that Quebec residents NEEDS in terms of the percentage of rods available through a draw is DEFINATELY priority number 1. As a matter of fact, it is FAR superior to what is the reality today. Enough said, you will all hear about it soon enough. I will go on to say that we have tried to consider every single utilizer and business in our proposition.

If you look at the FQSA model, which for the most-part suggests that outfitters be alloted a portion of the 20%, it would lead us to believe that they want about 80% of the total rods to be alloted to Quebecer's in a first round draw, if I am not mistaken. What we propose fits closely into this but takes into consideration, believe it or not, non-residents and other businesses in Quebec who deal in salmon. I am offering my comments based on the memorandum offered by the FQSA, but cannot tell you exactly what they are suggesting and the above should not be taken as fact, it is only my interpretation. I will have to wait like everyone else to find out in February what their real suggestions are.

Perhaps when all of this is all said and done, when our proposition is examined by all parties, many will see outfitters in a different light!

Thanks for your input!

Best to you,

David
P.S. out of scotch, can you suggest something else to help my sleepless nights!

fcch
01-12-2005, 01:29 PM
David,

Thank you. New dossier for me. Just finished reading the FQSA document (all 108 pages). Waiting for february too.

P.S. out of scotch, can you suggest something else to help my sleepless nights!

Standard fair on my home waters for those sleepless nights (like the eve of the season opener) ... Jack Daniel's :devil:

Salar36
01-12-2005, 02:38 PM
David,

I think you should read again recommandation 56(P.50) and 60 (P.53), it should help.


Pierre Manseau

salmo52
01-12-2005, 02:49 PM
David,

Forget the pills if you're out of scotch, count the leapers !

Gaspe Salmon
01-12-2005, 04:59 PM
Hey!

Counting those leapers really helps!

Looking forward to seeing them UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL SOON!

Best to you,

David

Silver Fox
03-03-2005, 12:41 PM
Dear Salmo 52,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your concern about my sleep... I can happily tell you that I am not losing any sleep from this subject, however, I am getting a good laugh at some of the behind the scenes workings to discredit us. (you are obviously not in this category)

The rumours and outright-created-lies posted on these boards are at root of why I have waded into the boards to respond. If you did not notice, I stayed out of it until it reached a point of being ridiculous. Now that I have waded in and have OFFERED the FACTS, I find it strange that many who started the controversey seem to be absent from offering solutions, they only continue to stirr the pot through others, who unfortunately have been victim of some of my rants. Oh well, for those in the know, the ones who will make the decisions, we all know what is REALLY going on! For those who have been pointed out as stirring the pot, I am sorry that you have been caught up in this, and that some of you have been soured, as you say, about continuing in the converstation, but this is the price to pay of aligning with people who have personal score's to settle and who have been spreading false information about our province. Do you think for one minute that the government and others really care about what we exchange here on the BB? Think again if the anwer is yes. I am only responding because I am sick of the lies and want to share the REAL story with others.

It would be really nice if these people (the one's who get others to start these topics) would offer suggestions on how to make the system work, before it is too late. Continually bitching about what we already know needs to be fixed, does not help anyone. So, once again I throw out the welcome mat to anyone who has suggestions. I have made several within my organization and welcome the ideas of others to incorporate into our work in progress.

Thanks for your input. You are correct, we need to take care of the draws first! Although I would really like to offer what we will be suggesting at the round-table, I simply cannot out of respect for all who will be hearing it soon enough. It is a work in progress but the GRANDE LIGNES have been suggested and will be offered soon!

What I CAN TELL YOU is that Quebec residents NEEDS in terms of the percentage of rods available through a draw is DEFINATELY priority number 1. As a matter of fact, it is FAR superior to what is the reality today. Enough said, you will all hear about it soon enough. I will go on to say that we have tried to consider every single utilizer and business in our proposition.

If you look at the FQSA model, which for the most-part suggests that outfitters be alloted a portion of the 20%, it would lead us to believe that they want about 80% of the total rods to be alloted to Quebecer's in a first round draw, if I am not mistaken. What we propose fits closely into this but takes into consideration, believe it or not, non-residents and other businesses in Quebec who deal in salmon. I am offering my comments based on the memorandum offered by the FQSA, but cannot tell you exactly what they are suggesting and the above should not be taken as fact, it is only my interpretation. I will have to wait like everyone else to find out in February what their real suggestions are.

Perhaps when all of this is all said and done, when our proposition is examined by all parties, many will see outfitters in a different light!

Thanks for your input!

Best to you,

David
P.S. out of scotch, can you suggest something else to help my sleepless nights!

Has any heard what was suggested in February?

Gaspe Salmon
03-04-2005, 10:32 AM
Silver Fox,

Nothing has been set in stone yet. Several ideas have been offered but nothing has been agreed upon as of yet. A special, working team, was put together after the last official salmon table meeting to try to work out a plan that would suit everyone's needs. A lot of good ideas came from these meetings but there seems to be one group that is still not willing to - how would I put this correctly... play nice with the other players.

The government, First Nations, FQSA, FQF, FPQ all seem to be on the same page and are looking for solutions to make better use of our resource for all. Of course the primary goal is to assure resident access, especially during the prime time period, followed by a fair and equitable system for access to the resource by others either working in the business, or, who just want to enjoy it.

Early March is the next scheduled meeting. I am confident that progress will be made then. I know that the other members of the round table are anxious to find a solution to this as there are MANY other issues to deal with at the table.

Keep checking the FQSA, FPQ and government websites for press releases. This is the best way to get FACTUAL information!

Keep well,

David

fcch
03-04-2005, 01:16 PM
Nice to know things are moving along (if not quickly, at least moving.
I was wondering if the "talks" got boged down when the Ministre Delegué became The Minister for the whole bunch (MRNFP).

Would you happen to know if the Wildlife Branch went with Parks over to Environnement or if they stayed with Natural Resources??

salmo52
03-04-2005, 02:17 PM
Thanks David for the info. Glad to see that discussions are progressing. Lets hope every one will be happy with the results at the end.

For those who would like to read the FQSA position, the english version (PDF format) of their proposal is online at the following link :

http://www.saumon-fqsa.qc.ca/Anglais/whats%20news/publication-ang.html

Salar36
03-05-2005, 04:21 PM
Chris;

Sooner this week, all the federations related to wildlife has published a press release about this. Actualy, the wildlife world has been splitted in 2 parts; the one generating revenus going to environment, the one generating expenses staying with MRNFP...There is a consensus from all the federations; they will let the government decide under which minister the wildlife will be, but the wildlife world MUST be kept as a global world. Expect to see some other changes soon...

fcch
03-05-2005, 05:57 PM
Salar36,
Thanks for the info. 'been a bit buried in work at the office and didn't get the chance to follow the press release.

When they shook up the govt cabinet the other week, I saw it as a bit of a power struggle between Ministry of the Environnement and the Min of Nat Resources.:tsk_tsk:

Given that Envir. is in charge of the network of "protected areas", they wanted parks. Sadly, at the same time, the Environement depatment of the forest service is working on their OWN network of Biological Reserves (Biodiversity and all that). There is still NO coordination between the two groups on this similar dossier. (BR's are smaller in size, but will be similar to Ecological reserves, with very little humain activity.)

Incidentally, in some discussions before Christmas, the forest industry, along with Min Forests, proposed to Environnement to create one of the Province D Aire Protégée all along the Ste-Margureit Rv, larger than the existing ZEC, butting up against the Sagueany Marine Park and spreading up North a ways into the Valin Mountains.

We haven't gotten any feedback from Environnement, but it would be a nice zone to help protect the Ste-Marguerite. :)

À Suivre ...

terry walsh
03-08-2005, 09:43 AM
My heart sank when I read this thread, I have been fishing for Atlantic Salmon in Quebec for the past couple of years and I've been thrilled with the experience, the quality of the salmon , the beauty of the rivers and the pleasure of simply being there means a lot to me. It is of course, the salmon that brings me there. I had hoped that this would be an annual trip for me, as a simple working man who lives within driving distance (Maine) it is possible for me to go fishing in Quebec every year, as long as I am not required to hire a guide, If I am required to hire a guide it adds several hundreds of dollars to my trip and it is no longer an annual opportunity for me, I would still come, but perhaps I could only afford every other year or one in three years.
To me this is a false economy, the people who can afford guides will hire them anyway, and those of us who cannot will simply not be able to fish/visit Quebec. I see that as a net loss. I also believe that mandatory outfitting/guiding is bad for the sport and bad for the industry in general. I fished the Mirimichi several years ago and had a "mandatory guide" , one of the worst sporting experiences of my life. My "guide" sat at the motor and swilled beer from a brown paper bag all day, when I asked him to travel downriver to a different spot he told me we did not have enough gas, we actually ran out of gas on the river. now, I know that this would not have happened if I were staying at Ponds or one of the other fine outfitters on the Mirimichi, but I can't afford those guys, so I am stuck with one of the local "outboard jockeys" which made my trip miserable, I have never returned to the Mirimichi.
I also believe that fisheries should be managed for conservation, not for monetary opportunities. Here in Maine we are forbidden to fish for Atlantic salmon because of the Endangered Species Act, as much as that is a hard ship we can live with it because it is important for the conservation and restoration of the species. This is a lot different than being excluded because you can't afford a guide. Will Salmon fishing in the Americas become the sole domaine of the wealthy as it is in many parts of the world. I sure hope not.
Hopefully this will not pass and anglers from all walks of life will get to sample the delights of Quebec salmon. Thank you, Terry

fcch
03-08-2005, 10:28 AM
terry,

Thanks for your comments

The ideas are just being batted around for now and NOTHING has been decided.

Hopefully things will get straightened out to everyones liking and in a fashion that our friends and neighbours from "out of town" can keep coming to play on some of the most beautiful rivers on earth.

Tight Lines ...

Salar-1
03-08-2005, 12:23 PM
Terry
Don't worry about the mandatory guide for non resident's. For the immediate (and forseeable )future ,it's dead .
Cheers