Approaches [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Approaches


peter-s-c
12-26-2004, 02:39 PM
Since I've had a bit of time over the holidays, Iíve started construction on a GL spey fishing site devoted to the use of the long rod in the GL basin. This site has to have a ďpurposeĒ so to fill that I need, Iíve been kicking around the idea of a specialised GL approach. While Scotland, Scandinavia, and the PNW have their traditions, we have nothing that approximates a GL tradition or approach. Something like this doesnít get started from scratch, neither can it be dreamt up by an individual Ė itís an outgrowth of the accumulated, shared experiences of numerous anglers. So, since we havenít yet created our own, perhaps we can pinch the best of others and meld them together into a useful synergy that can serve us well.

For this website, Iím working on a 1-2-2-2 concept Ė one rod, two lines, two casts, and two variations -- but before I go to the bother of building this into the site, I want to run it past the folks here to get your opinions. Iím banking on this being an approach that should appeal to a first time long rodder as it simplifies this business down to into something manageable. It should work for the experienced long rodder as it provides a basis for the building of an efficient technique and it should work for that Ďtweenerí who has been down the long rod road for a while but for whom things have yet to gel.

This approach is based on the idea that it should be applicable to the broadest range of GL waters while using the minimum amount of gear and technique. It does not preclude the use of other casts, methods, or gear rather, it answers the simple question, ďWhat is the minimum I need to have and know in the way of rods, lines and casts, to fish these waters with reasonable efficiency?Ē

For rods, Iím suggesting something in the 13í to 13í6Ē lengths in the 7/8/9 weight ranges, as rods in these classes seem to be suitable for the widest spectrum of our waters. Some rivers might need smaller rods while others need larger, but if you had to make do on these rivers, a rod in this range would suffice. For the rest of the majority of rivers, a rod in this range is ideal.

As for lines, we sometimes have the need to cast short and sometimes we need to cast long. Sometimes we want to strip line and other times we donít. Sometimes we need to get real deep and other times we donít. Sometimes we want to dead drift and other times we want to swing. To find a single line that does everything on this list is pretty tough so Iím suggesting two, a Skagit set up and a mid-belly tips line. If the purchase is well planned, one needs only a mid-belly tips and then uses those tips on a Skagit belly to complete the set.

As for casts, the more you can do the better, but if you had to live with two, what would they be? These casts have to handle wind, large changes of direction, be easy to perform especially off the wrong shoulder, and be able to lift tips with ease. Iíve found the combination of Double and Circle to be the best. First off, theyíre mirror images of each other so if you can learn one, the other is easy. They cover upstream and downstream winds, right and left banks. The high lift and broad sweep is ideal for tips, and they can handle all sorts of directions.

Finally, we donít always have the luxury of lots of room so the ability to perform both of these casts with either regular D-Loops or continuous/water loading loops, gives us the flexibility to move between situations with lots of room and limited room.

So, my intention is to build a site with this 1-2-2-2 method at it's core, plus include river essays and articles from GL anglers who would like to describe their successful technique (agreement with 1-2-2-2 is not required. :) ). The site would also have space for gear and technique descriptions beyond the 1-2-2-2 as obviously, I'm not promoting this as some be all and end all. It wouldn't include a forum or a chat so it wouldn't compete with this forum in any way.

Any thoughts?

Shaq
12-27-2004, 02:41 PM
A consideration:

I would focus on the flies which work in the Great Lakes system and the techniques which make those flies successful, not try to come up with a new technique with the goal of naming a GL technique. Some environmental factors could come second, size of most waters, weather throught the winter months, and so far. One of the demanding factors of our winter fishing is the fact that our winters tend to be much harsher than the PNW and our water sources have less springs and are more dam oriented, at least in NY. If you ook at the skagit style or the tip systems they use in the PNW you will find, if the flies they are throwing that way didn't work, they would be using different flies in a different technique that works. Any thoughts?

peter-s-c
12-27-2004, 03:29 PM
Ya, I can drop that part -- going by the underwhelming response it received, it's probably a smart idea. Probably flies and technique should be high on the list, followed by lines, and lastly rods since we're usually, "dancin' whit what brung us."

Actually, I cut to the chase with that description of the approach, but much of what is implict in it, involves dealing with winter -- specifically casting mid-belly tips lines that don't need to be stripped, etc.

I'm hoping that peole who contribute, will provide info on their waters along the lines you've mentioned.

Shaq
12-27-2004, 03:31 PM
I'm heading up to the Salmon, this week. I'll let you know how what where, Supposed to be in the forties on Thursday.

peter-s-c
12-27-2004, 03:39 PM
Thanks, we're heading off to the Grand tomorrow for one more round before she closes till April.

I'll be saving any info people send me on rivers and such, then roll them into the site, (with the appropriate credits of course).

BLACK FRANCIS
12-28-2004, 07:49 AM
Peter
i would be happy to contribute to the stew, but i'm not really sure what you are asking for. if it's just a went here caught this then no thanks. but, if you want technical details and notes on technique for certain waters or flies for the like i think it may be very useful. imho your first post was difficult for me to understand exactly what you wanted out of us. definitly interested and willing, just need some direction.

removed_by_request
12-28-2004, 08:20 AM
Peter,

I like the idea, this sharing of information can be very handy.

We could tailor it to I fish river x using this rod in the winter with the following lines, using these casts(some rod/line combos to me anyway have certain cast/casts that light them up). We could get down to what fly is used whether it is swung or dead drifted etc...

We don't need fishing reports per se, maybe more like a river condition report. When on the Mo' with water at xyz cfs with this clarity and H2O temp fish turned on for me.

This sharing of fishing related information would surpass tss and the other fishing hotspot sites. IMHO we don't need to know if the fish are stacked below an area, half the fun is the hunt of these chrome babies.

Shaq
12-28-2004, 08:21 AM
If I have been reading Peter's notes right for the half year I have been conected to the site, I know he doesn't need to know where and when. I think he is interested in coming up with a distintcly Great Lakes way to use the spey rods. One of the things that I have noticed from reading about the Lakes is that my fishery in the eastern part of Lake Ontario is vastly different form the upper Penninsylia of Michigan so coming up with a way to use all throughout the Lakes may be difficult. In my neck of the woods the rivers are littered with shale boulders and bedrock creating jagged ledges and long smooth flats. Some hold fish, others do not. The way I have seen most people use speys on the Salmon river is with a straight line on 10lb mono, a swivel with 1,2, or 3 #7 splits and then a four foot piece of whatever tippet. Peter's continueous load system works well for casting this rig up to a certain point. This is a good system to fish nymphs and eggs and probably grew out of an extention of the running line system which is the most popular and most productive. I have been fooling around with cut sections of type 6-8 tips with my windcutter with some success and popsicle type flies. One of the advantages of both of these is that on cold days we needn't strip line in, and our guides don't freeze.

peter-s-c
12-28-2004, 05:22 PM
Yup, the enthusiasm for an idea gets the better of me sometimes and I blither on. Basically, I wasn't trying to invent a tradition (that can't be done) but I was trying to take a minimalist approach to detemine what rig will fish the widest spectrum of GL rivers.

As far as info was concerned, exactly guys, I'm not interested in, "The weather was such 'n' such and we caught three fish." rather, I'm interested in collecting technique and river info like Shaq mentioned. "On such 'n' such a river, we have to use this sort of rig to get down between the boulders. We've found the xyz line works great, etc. etc." The idea being that if one of us wants to fish a GL river that we've never been to before, by reading the stuff on the site we'll have an idea of what we'll face in the way of river conditions and some idea of gear and technique that'll be needed to catch fish. Think of it as a collection of river experiences.

BTW, I was out today on the Grand getting one last fling in before the season closes. I had only one pull but Dave hooked up and lost two.

grouseman
12-28-2004, 06:12 PM
I agree with nixing the show and tell type site, which already exists and is abit nauseating sometimes. I'm an experienced flyfisher, but a rank amateur 2-hander. I enjoy learning from this site and its contributors. Today I cast a spey rod for the first time. Not sure what type of cast I was doing but got it to work and was amazed at how easily 60 or 70 ft of line flies. No fish, but I'm hooked.

peter-s-c
12-28-2004, 06:18 PM
Hey, the angler has to be hooked before the fish can . . . .

grouseman
12-28-2004, 06:23 PM
I bought a Sage 14' 9wt and rio lines/tips on ebay. The tips weren't identified. How do I tell what each tip is?

peter-s-c
12-28-2004, 06:40 PM
The tip with the yellow loop is type 3, the grey loop tip is type 6, and green loop tip is type 8.

Quick hookset, I see. :)

Jamey McLeod
12-29-2004, 08:59 AM
Peter, great idea on the site. I really think the GL long rodders get overlooked on other local websites. That, and I am sick and tired of some of aft said web site.

I like MJYP's input above. Mo was flowing at "XXX" cfs, clarity was"XXXX", I was fishing a long/short, deep/shallow, run/riffle/pool, using "XXXX" tip, on "XXX" line, with"XXX" rod. "while fishing "XXX" run, an "XXX" cast was needed due to "XXXX" conditions. Get what I'm saying? No need for pictures of garbage bags full of kings, or king roe, but an occasional pic wouldn't hurt.

Jamey

Gillie
12-29-2004, 09:15 AM
Peter,
Rather than another website have you considered talking to Dana about a seperate section under the speyclave that would deal with this issue. Perhaps you would able to moderate it.

I think the concept is a good one but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to keep the conversation focused here where people like Simon, Dana, Bob Meiser, Juro, and countless other reps are frequently on line and can answer technical questions.

Perhaps instead of just having a "Great Lakes Steelhead & Salmon" section on the fly fishing forum we look at adding a GL section to the spey clave to do what you are talking about.

Gillie

Jamey McLeod
12-29-2004, 09:49 AM
Very good idea Gillie. Not to detract from Peters plans, but that would be another great option.

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 09:59 AM
Gillie

It's not a bad idea, however, I wouldn't want to compete with this forum. While this one isn't dedicated solely to the long rod, I don't see that as a bad thing as we benefit from all experiences, plus there are plenty of guys in the GL basin who fish with both rod types.

As an example of what I would like to put on my site was our experiences yesterday in -4C weather with low, clear water conditions after a relatively long cold spell that would've reduced water temps to the lowest.

I was using chartreuse flies while Dave stuck with drab brown with red and he hooked up two while I ended up with a zero. I've often thought that yellow or charteuse should work in these sorts of conditions (it has in the past), but that drab and a splash of colour might go well too. Can't say from one outing that drab is the in thing, but it's enough to make me consider tying up a bunch.

As far as rods and lines goes, I was using a Delta Long on my 10 wt. Daiwa to avoid stripping and guide icing while Dave was using a shooting head with a braided running line. That running line soaked up water and iced his guides up pretty good -- so bad that on one fish, I had to gently remove ice from his tiptop and tip snakes so that he could retrieve the head/running line joint through the guides.

This made me think of a few things. Both of us were using rods with ceramic insert, cage type tiptops and they iced up bad. Titanium coated Hayforks would be much better and I'm thinking about converting at least one rod. Shooting heads in sub-freezing, especially with braided running line looks like a non-starter. The long 14'6" 10 wt. enabled long line pickup that permitted 70' to 75' casts without shooting and avoided excessive icing. This is the one scenario where I see an advantage for a 15 footer with a long bellied line. One big problem though with typical long-belly tapers -- if you're not casting the fat belly section beyond the tiptop, you could get icing on the tiptop with a hole that is smaller than the fat belly. If a fish runs, as that fat belly hits the skinny iced over hole, you either break off the fish or your rod tip. This is one place where a DT line seems perfect as the constant diameter of the DT ensures that the hole in the iced over tiptop is never too small to pass the entire line. I have a new DT-10-F Spey Ultra 4 that I haven't used yet -- should try it with Polyleaders just to see how well it works.

This icing problem also discourages the use of Rio WC and MS multi-tips as the tip 2/belly joint could easily refuse to pass through the iced over tiptop & guides, leaving you with a fish on and nowhere to go.

The other aspect that had me thinking was tips vs mono and weighted flies. The flow rates were at summertime lows so even an intermediate 15' tip + a fly tied on a heavy salmon iron was ticking bottom way too much -- even in 3' to 4' depths. I probably would've been better off with a 15' FC leader and that fly. The conditions approached what little I've seen in video and pictures of slow Atlantic salmon pools where heavy iron and mono leaders get down quite a bit.

Gillie
12-29-2004, 10:54 AM
Peter,
I guess I'm a little confused how doing it on the speyclave would compete with this forum any more than doing it on a seperate web site all together. In fact, with the Fly Fishing Forum and the Spey Clave linked it should only bring in more people to both of them.

I just like one stop shopping, and would like to see the Spey Clave continue to grow and become more involved with the GL>

Good luck with it either way.

Gillie

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 11:54 AM
I wasn't planning on hosting a forum on the site, rather it would be something similar to my existing site so, in that sense, it isn't competition. Any contributions by other anglers would be be converted to HTML and mounted by me. So the site would be a collection of GL fishing experiences, flies, tackle, etc. rather than a live forum.

sva01
12-29-2004, 01:07 PM
This icing problem also discourages the use of Rio WC and MS multi-tips as the tip 2/belly joint could easily refuse to pass through the iced over tiptop & guides, leaving you with a fish on and nowhere to go.


Peter-
This isn't a permanent solution by any means but dropping your rod tip into the water and keeping it there while fighting the fish will melt the ice for you. Obviously after the fish is landed you're back to square one, but it will get you out of the situation you refer to above.
Here in Michigan and particularly on the Muskegon the winter steelhead tend to roll after they've been hooked. The best way to counter this move is to lower the rod parallel to the water and even put the tip into the water. It seems that by lowering the angle of pressure and keeping the fishes head parallel with the current, the fish will stop rolling as violently and therefore gives us a better chance of landing it.
Another thing that I make sure to do is apply Loon's Ice off Paste to my guides before I fish and while the rod is DRY. I find that the Mucilin silicone line dressing also works well. As I said, do it while the rod is dry for the best results!

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 01:22 PM
Does your rod have a Hayfork tip or a cage type? Dave tried dunking the rod tip but the hunk of ice was too big as the cage type tiptop really gives ice plenty of purchase. I didn't have any icing at all until I made the mistake of accidentally sticking the tip in the water -- it was iced up from that point on. Cage type tiptops really suck in sub-freezing conditions.

We had some silicone goop that worked to keep the guides clear for a while, but eventually it all iced up.

sva01
12-29-2004, 01:54 PM
I've never really paid much attention to component descriptions because I've never even considered building my own rod. With that being said, I'd have to guess that it's a cage type. It's a factory Sage 9141 so maybe that will tell you. If you'd reply with the differences between the two I'd love to hear it.
The icing you experienced typically happens at some point throughout the day for me as well. The most beneficial step is the silicone paste before the guides get wet. That will considerably delay the onset of ice but it will probably happen regardless. We fished two weeks ago on a day that the high was 14 degrees farenheit. It was tough all day but we managed, and had to resort to dunking the rod a few times while fighting fish. I guess I'd rather have to dunk it and deal with it from then on than not have a reason to dunk it. :biggrin:

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 02:01 PM
Don't own a Sage two-hander so I couldn't say what they put on them, however, the ceraminc insert, cage type resembles the tiptops found on spinning rods while the Hayfork is the simple wire loop tiptop found on most single handed fly rods.

--------------------

Just checked the Sage website and they all look like Hayfork wire tiptops. They'd be a lot easier to clear by dunking.

Charlie
12-29-2004, 02:16 PM
Peter,

I like your idea and think I have a good idea of what you are trying to achieve. I have visited your streamer page before and you have some good ideas out there. If I can help with the new one in any way let me know. Perhaps an essay or 2 on fishing some of the local streams and rivers in WNY along with some fly patterns? I will also have a talk with Nick (Black Francis) and explain your concept to him. He is a fantastic resource for spey fishing the area.

Charlie

sva01
12-29-2004, 02:17 PM
It is in fact a ceramic tip top. I like the hayfork type much better as the tip guide and have never figured out why Sage uses the ceramic insert. It's the only guide (besides the stripper) on the rod that contains ceramic and as you said it builds ice faster than the other. I'm able to get the ice off while fighting fish but you have to leave it submerged for at least 30 seconds and sometimes longer.

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 04:53 PM
Thanks Charlie.

I'll be putting up the bare bones site in a month or so and we can start from there. I'll be pleased to put up your contributions.


sva01

Must be an earlier model as all of the current ones on the Sage site have Hayforks. We tried dunking but the tip was totally clogged -- next time, Hayforks.

sva01
12-29-2004, 05:16 PM
sva01
Must be an earlier model as all of the current ones on the Sage site have Hayforks. We tried dunking but the tip was totally clogged -- next time, Hayforks.

Peter-
I bought it this past April. Here is what it looks like.

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 05:35 PM
Interesting as all of the pictures that I saw on the Sage website, showed Hayforks. must be the "tip-of-the-week" at the Sage factory. :)

removed_by_request
12-29-2004, 06:26 PM
"tip-of-the-week" :)


a tip of the week section may be a good idea for the new site.


sure could generate conversation as the seasons roll on, could range from fly tying to line building , to casts/anchor placement. or the now infamous guide de-icing...

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 06:31 PM
Now that's an idea -- to dunk or not to dunk -- that is the question!

But when I run out of tips, I'll be bugging youse guys . . . . :)

removed_by_request
12-29-2004, 06:56 PM
you can dunk a basketball but never dunk a cruller.

peter-s-c
12-29-2004, 07:04 PM
Even if Sage, having run out of both kinds of tips, has stuck one on the end of your rod and now it is covered in ice(ing)? See the position you've put me in now that I'm the official arbiter of "tip-of-the-week"!

removed_by_request
12-30-2004, 04:32 PM
We can help you out on the tips, afterall we are just now seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I wonder what lies below??

peter-s-c
12-30-2004, 05:27 PM
Darkness, manure, and mushrooms?

Dornblaser
01-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Peter,

There already exists a site that does what you propose: http://steelheadsite.com/speycasting/ We also added a steelhead section to www.wisflyfishing.com (very active board, must be a member to view the posts).

The steelheadsite is not an exclusive fly fishing site. I have been bothered by the lack the of support that the current sites give issues like C&R, stream reclamation, stream ettiquette, etc. I am also bothered that up until the last melt down post (which was quickly pulled) that the www.speyclave.com has been a thinly disquised marketing tool for CND and Dana. I own several commercial websites and a web development firm and have been toying with the idea about putting up a GL fly fishing steelhead/atlantic salmon site. I was thinking along the same lines that you are about GL specific technique but also to discuss the issues about the state of the GL tribs.

Any interest in working together on this project?

loco_alto
01-01-2005, 03:46 PM
Dornblaser -

let someone who is not involved speak up, since you might have reason to question Juro or Dana's motivation.

The chicken (MSN - ISC) definitely came before the egg (FFForum and then CND and also Dana's professional aspirations).

Now the eggs have hatched. As the chicks grow, they are feeling their way around. I think they are doing a fine job. I've been bothered in the past by what seemed like informercials, but everyone involved (and I mean everyone) has shown a great deal of maturation in the process. You can't fault these people because they have professional connections as reps or sponsors or guides or potential book authors. I think they're learning, and making a great environment for everyone around here.

just my opinion over the years here...

Dornblaser
01-01-2005, 04:29 PM
Steve,

Not sure what you mean by this: "let someone who is not involved speak up, since you might have reason to question Juro or Dana's motivation." I am certainly not involved except as an occasional poster. I did point out and question Juro's lack of professionalism in the thread that was removed. And, yes, there was a welcome change after then. I suspect that that thread was the catalyst that caused the change. FWIW - I have ordered a CND rod since then.

But the speyclave/speypages is not the point: I do think that are needs that are not being addressed by the existing forums. Specifically, GL focus on technique, streams, and ettiquette.

David

Gillie
01-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Dornblaser

I think the GL section of this forum has had some good discussions. If there hasn't been it's due to a lack of postings rather than a lack of oppurtunity. Peter was initially discussing a site like his streamer page where information is posted - not another forum.

Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel you should talk to Dana and Juro. I'm sure they would be willing to add sections if there was a request and it made sense.

The problem with too many forums is that it convolutes the information. I had looked for information on the web for about a year before finding this site. I have gotten some of the best information I could have imagined since joining this forum.

This forum has true experts like Simon Gawesworth, Ed Ward, Bob Meiser, Aaron Reimer and many others that I cant even begin to name frequenting the site and answering questions about tackle they have developed. This sort of expertise does not exsist elsewhere on the web.

As far as being self promoting for Dana and Juro, I have never found a web site that wasn't promoting something. They have done an outstanding job being objective. Even though they are both linked to a specific tacjle company I have read posts from both of them praising tackle from other manufacturers when questions have been raised about it. If you really want to talk about being objective, they haven't intervened or even commented in a thread that has trended towards advocating taking the conversation elsewhere.

Instead of advocating a new forum start new threads here and add to the discussion. :tsk_tsk:

Gillie

Dornblaser
01-01-2005, 06:10 PM
Gillie,

Good points. The speypages/speyclave is the best spey forum out there.

It is an idea that I have been mulling over for sometime now. I was thinking of a site that was information rich that also included a forum and that had a focus more than spey.

I should have emailed Peter directly and not posted. Let's let the subject drop for now. If it moves beyond the idea stage to the planning stage I will post again.

Happy New Year everyone,
David

peter-s-c
01-01-2005, 07:34 PM
David

I'm familiar with the Steelhead site and I'm not planning anything near as elaborate. This is just a simple site with info on tactics, etc. for GL spey fishers. The structure and functionality is already complete -- all that's left is to plug in the text and images. I will be having a section open to other GL spey fishers to publish a small article on their preferred methods and I'd welcome your contribution.

Dornblaser
01-01-2005, 08:42 PM
Peter,

It sounds great, I look forward to seeing the site.

David

admin
01-01-2005, 10:52 PM
Dornblaser -

As somewhat of a veteran in building and maintaining sites, if there is such a thing in this relatively new genre, I wish you the very best of luck with your venture.

However, I respectfully and graciously ask one thing of you. Please do not solicit or recruit interest toward your commercial site objective here in this forum.

Thanks and enjoy the site.

Peter,

There already exists a site that does what you propose: http://steelheadsite.com/speycasting/ We also added a steelhead section to www.wisflyfishing.com (very active board, must be a member to view the posts).

The steelheadsite is not an exclusive fly fishing site. I have been bothered by the lack the of support that the current sites give issues like C&R, stream reclamation, stream ettiquette, etc. I am also bothered that up until the last melt down post (which was quickly pulled) that the www.speyclave.com has been a thinly disquised marketing tool for CND and Dana. I own several commercial websites and a web development firm and have been toying with the idea about putting up a GL fly fishing steelhead/atlantic salmon site. I was thinking along the same lines that you are about GL specific technique but also to discuss the issues about the state of the GL tribs.

Any interest in working together on this project?

Dornblaser
01-01-2005, 10:57 PM
As somewhat of a veteran in building and maintaining sites, if there is such a thing in this relatively new genre, I wish you the very best of luck with your venture.However, I respectfully and graciously ask one thing of you. Please do not solicit or recruit interest toward your commercial site objective here in this forum.

As I wrote earlier, I was just thinking out loud and was not soliciting interest. Let's drop the discussion.