Battle for Monomoy begins [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Battle for Monomoy begins

Rip Ryder
12-16-2004, 05:08 PM
Hi Everyone,

I am writing as promised to inform all of you, when the meetings for the Monomoy National Wildlife Refuge Comprehensive Conservation Plan began. There was an article in this weeks Cape Cod Chronicle about the meetings starting in Late Jan or Feb. There was also a notification published in the Federal Register this week. No dates have been set at this time, but there was a number of ways listed to contact Mr Bill Perry (USFWS) to be put on a mailing list to receive those dates. I will attach that information at the bottom of this post.

What is the Comprehensive Conservation Plan? Basically all the usages of the refuge will be discussed and reviewed and after those discussions a plan or set of regulations will be written and approved. Basically, the plan has to be written to support the "big 6 usages" of refuge. Those 6 usages are wildlife observation, photography, fishing, hunting, environmental education and interpretation. If you have any interest in Monomoy at all, you need to be involved and you need to be vocal. Unfortunately, from my personal battle over the ferry, not all the big wigs want to follow the big six idealolgy. For example, I have been told that Seal Cruises are not compatable with the refuge. Funny the seals use the refuge as a major haul out and pupping area. In English, they live on Monomoy. Also, wouldn't seal cruises fall under environmental education and interpetation.
See where I am going with this? A lot of this also comes from pressure from the neighbors on the FWS.

Some of the more controversial topics are clamming, commercial uses and access.
As you all know the neighbors of Morris Island do not like the refuge being a public place. The list of complaints they have is as long as their driveways. Unfortunately, they have a sympathetic ear with some of the big wigs of the Fish and wildlife service, and they like to dangle their money infront of some political power houses. Your ability to fish Monomoy IS at stake. Some of the proposals I have heard are shutting down Morris Island to the public, removing the ferry service and even closing the islands completely to the public. Anyone of these individually or collectively will disrupt a unique opportunity, we have all come to love and enjoy. As you know we stopped the beach shuttles to south beach for general beaching due to the residents' crying. Well I have also been fighting against the residents all summer to keep you all going to South Beach for fishing. The residents figured they got their way on the beach shuttle with FWS, so why not keep going and stop south beach all together. The neighbors think they can put pressure on me through their sympathetic ears from the FWS and threats of long drawn and expensive law suits. Well they can just go Kiss my Swedish ass!!! The battle for the ferry is my battle, so please keep your focus on your right to have access. I am only trying to give you examples of what you're up against.

I truly feel with as many voices we have reading this forum, we can make more noise than any amount of money, but it will require involvement from as many as possible. Juro and I have been talking about this and brain storming some ideas, so please stay tuned and informed through the forum. I will continue to update you as I learn more.

Contact information to be put on mailing list:

Contact Person
Bill Perry US Fish and Wildlife Service

Phone Number
978-443-4661 extension 32


Eastern Massachusetts National Wildlife Complex
73 Weir Hill Rd
Sudbury, MA 01776

I would not waste your time and energy making calls to the FWS to complain now.
Save it for these meetings. If you can not attend the meetings, I am sure there will be minutes posted on the forum some how and then letters can be written to
support your points.

Capt Keith Lincoln
Monomoy Island Ferry

12-16-2004, 06:42 PM
Alarming thoughts Keith. Have printed out your contact info and will get on the notification list. Simply said.....we will be there!!!!! I shared your email with my wife and her response was priceless....."if they (neighbors) didn't want to see people walking by their mansions then they shouldn't have moved there" :)

As far as I am concerned, in this country, for the "public" means the whole public, and not just the 2 dozen people who can afford multi million dollar homes on Morris Island. If they wanted that area pristine, then they shouldn't have built houses on that beautiful piece of real estate!

You as well as us (FF's) have not only enjoyed this piece of God's creation and have treated it with the utmost respect it deserves. We leave it in the same or better condition than when we arrived.

Hopefully this meeting/hearing will not be when I'm in Florida, if it isn't, I would love to drive to the Cape for a winter "visit".

Best Wishes Keith,

12-16-2004, 06:46 PM
I will need to get on the mailing list... This Morris Island thing is really pissing me off... but I can only make statements at public hearings and identify the enemy.

12-16-2004, 07:07 PM
Please keep us up-to-date on the meetings, Keith. I will also try to get on the mailing list. I live in Harwich and have no plans for vaca in Jan or Feb or early March, so should be able to show up and put my two cents in as a user and local doc (for what good that may be). I can also post info on the meetings in my office and tell my patients who fish the refuge to show up as well. Let's keep up the fight!
Doc Shep

Rip Ryder
12-16-2004, 07:49 PM
You may also visit ( for more information or search for the
Monomoy National Wildlife refuge home page. There are some links on the site explaining the CCP process.


12-17-2004, 07:53 AM
Keep us posted I'll attend a meeting. FishHawk

12-17-2004, 07:55 AM
Just a thought, is your competition behind some of this?

12-17-2004, 08:01 AM
Thanks for the information Keith.

Hand in hand is the movement to turn ramp access at Ryder's Cove to resident only.

Rip Ryder
12-17-2004, 02:58 PM

You hit it on the nose. Many of the residence have their boats at Outermost Harbor, so they are pushing for Frank (owner of Outermost) all the way. Number one to get me off the refuge and second to better their relations with Frank.

One of the residence even told the refuge manger that Frank should just have it all to himself, since he owns a marina. Whatever that has to do with anything, I don't know. Frank even went as far as complaining to the refuge manager this season, because I would not raise my prices after he called me and told me to do so. Him calling me and telling me to raise my prices is illegal by the way.

If this permit goes to concession and they give it to Frank, because he owns a Marina, you better be prepared to pay big money to fish Monomoy and South Beach. He as already shown that with his prices this past season. Funny how some can't focus on anything but their pocket book.


12-17-2004, 04:40 PM
If it comes to that Keith, I'll just launch my inflatayak from Stage Harbor and paddle out there- Morris Island dorks and Frank be damned....but we are NOT going to let it get to that!!!
Doc Shep :tsk_tsk:

12-17-2004, 07:32 PM
Their goal is to close the cauzzway and to make access difficult to impossible.

12-17-2004, 08:02 PM
We can NOT stand idle and let this happen. If there is one thing gone bad about the cape it's how private interests have locked it all up - where it affects tracts of residential land there's not much that people can say, where it affects riparian access that's still another - but when it reaches into the heart of the refuge, which by it's very name implies it's sacred nature as a place to be experienced, loved and enjoyed by the people (not the rich out of town a**holes) then it's time to draw the line; we should commit that we are not going to take this bullshit anymore.

This is one of the most important fights we will have as anglers and citizens with respect to our rights. I am completely sick of this manipulative special interest group pushing an agenda for their own selfish interests while the sportsmen and general public's rights are tossed aside.

Anyone who has or dreams of stepping onto Monomoy soil ever again has an obligation to fight for this critical cause.

12-18-2004, 07:04 AM
Some time ago I talked to a townie who was in a truck looking over the causeway , he told me that they were planning on building an additional parking lot on the causeway to relieve the parking. Seems as this plan has dropped out of site. One thing we should all do is park on the causeway and not up on the refuge . If we over crowd the parking lot then we have another foe against us the birdwatchers who could be our allies. Also, don't take a leak up there if the bathrooms are closed that's all we need .

12-18-2004, 12:25 PM
I agree with FishHawk- those of us in the know always park on the causeway; either at the outset or after dropping gear off at the refuge lot. We need to educate visitors and "newbies" to do the same to reduce friction. But I'll be damned if they're going to shut it down altogether....we would have to organize a "fish in" and all get arrested as a means of protest...power to the sportsmen!! Striblue could then defend us and take it to the Supreme Court if needed. :hihi:
Doc Shep

Rip Ryder
12-18-2004, 01:19 PM
Parking on the causeway is the least of our problems. That parking lot you were speaking of fishhawk, was voted down two years ago. Even my father and I signed the petition against that. First, why rip up a nice piece of land like that to put in a parking lot. Second, the parking area they designed was 35 less parking spaces than the causeway has now(80 spaces). The only thing that needs to happen with the causeway is move the pillings in about 4 feet so the cars are off the road surface to widen the driving area.

A little more history on the causeway, people parking on the causeway and walking up is where the red van came from. The neighbors complained about people walking up the hill. The pathway from the causeway to the beach was shut down last year by the Quinnesett association the blame was put on us, but remember our folks use the van. So no matter what they complain about I have always come up with a remedy. Still no one is happy.

I also think you should know that some of the leaked information to me is coming from some of the Morris Island Neighbors. There are those who live there that use the service and the refuge on a regular basis. Unforturnately, they are out numbered and have payed the price in the past for not following the majority, when it came to bucking the FWS or trying to put us out.

Another heads up, I know some of you are probably thinking about contacting Senators or Congressman. Great Idea, just know ahead over the years the residents have played that card, so you are going to have to out weigh there money contrabutions by large numbers of letters. So far, past Refuge Managers were able to fend of the political pressure from those tactics. I am not sure the current Project leaders are willing to do that.

Remember stay focused on keeping the islands open to the public and your ease of access to Morris Island.

12-18-2004, 02:16 PM
Thanks Keith!

One of the things that always happens with these causes is that it's hard to know exactly what we need to do to help.

Keith has provided a good outline.

Please let's all start by doing the following, then we will get to the next step:

1) Get on the mailing list via phone Number 978-443-4661 extension 32. Make sure you mention that you are concerned about Monomoy and feel it's the responsibility of the USFW to protect the rights of public access to our national treasures.

2) Keep the topic alive here, and hold a most important clave - the Monomoy Hearing Clave. We should all plan to attend these meetings and stand to defend rights to the refuge against private interests.

3) Write letters to public officials. I will work with Keith and others to determine who would be the most important people to petition. I believe it is an obligation for such to respond to every inquiry, so the message is only as strong as our response.

4) Let's hear some ideas - I know we have some very impressive people in the ranks, and can't afford to wait for someone else to get things going. It's up to each and every one of us to make this happen.

12-18-2004, 02:52 PM
I will be talking to Mike Brady, and with Keiths recommendation, I will make an effort to get on the board of the freinds of Monomoy.

12-18-2004, 03:47 PM
Good idea John.

Let's stay coordinated on this, in fact I am thinking we need to ask for cooperation from Reel-time and FFSW for maximum clout.

12-19-2004, 04:25 PM
If we could get Reel-Time to help us out that would be great, however, they use the competition for their Claves even when I post the fact that Rip-Ryder charges less money. I would also try to get some of the bird watching groups on our side. FishHawk

12-19-2004, 06:09 PM
Let me jump in with my 2 cents worth. The more I think about this situation, the angrier I get. All along the coast people are buying property and then trying to "protect" it from us poor common slobs. We might defile their property values by walking within a quarter-mile of their houses. I have never seen anyone do anything that could even remotely seem inconsiderate. There's no honking horns, no shouting in the mornings, and no trespassing on the abutters property. If any of this was going on they would have something to gripe about.

I agree with some of the other posts that this is just the start, then it will be causeway parking. What next? A gate across the road with guards? What I don't understand is that in all the times I'm there I never see any of the neighbors outside. What do they have to complain about?

I really think an effort should be made to enlist the help of the birders. The more bodies the better. More bodies equals more letters and phone calls.

12-19-2004, 09:02 PM
Hey Keith,
Let me know and I will be back for the hearings if needed. If things get real tough I'll bring in my Mother! She raised 7 kids on a shoestring budget and could make a grizzly bear back down with a willow switch. She weighted in (figurtively...,) last time this access crap started and would gladly do so again. She's the only gal in New England I'm scarred to piss off!! (just don't make her wear a red sox hat!)
I have been part of several "open comment issues" on Western Land Use issues and the "numbers" of comments are key to winning these battles. We need to use the forum to decide "when we weigh in" and what the talking points are. The forum is an excellent place to organize these comments.
We've been loosing access since I was a kid and my tax dollars are going to building sea walls for the rich and famous of Morris Islands...., that makes a WHOLE lotta sense!
Let's get after it!

Rip Ryder
12-19-2004, 10:17 PM
I have already alerted my birders of what is coming up. I am waiting for a response in the near future. I have had great responses from them in the past when the neighbors tried to shut me down. They are a large and lound voice. Quite a few of them hold high post in national organizations like Audobon.

There are few people I can contact through Reel-Time, but they (reel-time) I'm sure will have their own agenda. That is where a lot of the "Big Business" end of fishing Monomoy comes into play. Owning the gates to Monomoy fishing would make them and the competition more than Happy. The few that I do know from that site are true outdoorsmen and are not working Monomoy or South Beach. They would be more apt to see the access problem before the $$$$ s.

The other issue I see is letting them know what we are discussing and leaking our thoughts about approaching this heated topic to those we are trying to stand against. Again, from my personal experiences with the whole picture of that neighborhood, it is tight little gentlemens club (re read some of my earlier posts)
and one hand is trying to wash the other.

Rip Ryder
12-19-2004, 10:56 PM
Dennis you think your mother is scary? You should see my wife over all this bull-$%#@. She was reading over my shoulder on my last post and reminded me of a conversation I had with one of the FWS big wigs. This comment will back up my comment about wanting to "own the gateway to Monomoy" and the relationship with the neighbors and Outermost and the whole "Big Business" comment and one hand washing the other.

Late this summer, I was informed of a conversation between the President of Quinnesett (Morris Island) and the Refuge after one of Frank's crying sessions about my prices "killing him". The message relayed to the refuge was
"we (Quinnesett) feel it would be beneficial to have Outermost be the one bringing people to Monomoy and South Beach, because we feel it will remove the traffic problem here on Morris Island and it will give the refuge a better control on how many people are out there everyday". That is from my notes taken this summer.

Just another comment to help you see the relationships, that I am talking about and that we will be facing at these meetings. I truly am trying to stay objective on this for you and not sound like I am whining about my ferry issues in these meetings, but sometimes the information I have for myself will cross over into the information I need to share with you and the issue your facing. Hope you all can see that.


12-20-2004, 04:27 AM
A thought crossed my mind. Perhaps some money is changing hands here. Part of Outermost's high fees are lining the pockets of certain officals. All the arguements against Rip-Ryder not having a bussiness on Morris Island are transparent. However, nothing suprises me with the change of the political climate in the country . All of the environmental protection that was in place in the past has been dismantled. A United Front is what we need. Keep us posted.
Thanks Kieth FishHawk :mad:

12-21-2004, 07:33 AM
Been doing a bit of research this morning on the Monomoy/Morris issue. I started with exploring the U.S. Fish and Wildlife site.....therein, is a schedule of "comprehensive reviews" of various refuges. The schedule posted on the site goes from 2005 to 2010....oddly enough, Morris/Monomoy was not on he schedule????
So, it may be a left over from 2004 or this is a politically motivated unscheduled review or an unscheduled review due to a complaint and request for an expedited review?????
Working my way through the site, I found a link
This site is the library for previous/completed comprehensive reviews. I thought that it might be a good idea to read the last report of comprehensive review that was done on the Morris/Monomoy Refuge.
The report was 342 pages long...given that I have a dial up connection, not took 15 minutes to download 4 pages. If someone is interested and has a cable might be a good idea to obtain/read a copy of this report so as to: a) see what the previous thinking was; b) see if fishing/shuttle use was discussed previously; c) what issues were discussed and d) review final rationales/ restrictions/requirements and recommendations.
Having history of how and why decisions were made may be of good potential if there becomes a change in thinking.....we could ask.."why was this not a problem previously and is now....what changed"?????

Doc Duprey
12-21-2004, 08:45 AM
Sorry to say that this document refers to a wetlands management area in Minnesota and not to our beloved Morris Island Refuge. Still...a noble effort. Let's keep up the research so we can better prepare our case. If we do our homework, we can "win" this for the good of everyone, not just a few greedy individuals who want to "lock up" public lands by limiting access.

Living in New Jersey, I have seen the loss of access first hand. Count me in on this one!

Best regards and Merry Christmas to all,

-Doc Duprey

12-21-2004, 09:20 AM
It really is sickening to me reading this. I discovered Monomoy about 2 years ago, and for someone without a boat and access, the Rip Ryder is an absolute gem to me. Personally I would be crushed if the end of the Rip Ryder came about like this.

Someone needs to inform the residents of Morris Island that Monomoy isn't their own personal back yard. While in the process someone needs to inform Mr. Outermost that its called competition, Keith can charge whatever he wants, and he has no right to cheat to win. I'll be following this thread closely

Dble Haul
12-21-2004, 10:23 AM
This thread is both depressing and uplifting. Depressing for the potential of losing access for such bogus reasons, and uplifting for the joining of forces and efforts that is taking place here.

I will do what I can for my part.

12-21-2004, 12:48 PM
I am truely sorry to hear about this. Our world is becoming the world of haves and the have little. The let them eat cake crowd needs to be put in place one way or another. What was the French revolution about anyway! All over this country and all over this world the fuse is being lit. Get tough on your issues and most of all stay as loud as you can, put these high end creeps on the defensive as fast as possible. If you don't they will use the back rooms effectively and once again we will be looking for ever shrinking places to find some simple peace and beauty.
Best of luck.

12-22-2004, 12:46 PM
One of the things I find so ironic in all of these property rights battles is how many sportsmen/ outdoorsmen support the pols who spout the hot button catch phrases- " Gun rights", Property ownership rights", and 'Getting government out of our business" that are generally so contrary to what their real interests. When in fact once these selfish, greedy folks get their way the very things outdoorsmen think they voted to protect are the first things to be lost. We are seeing more and more of it here. Folks buy up the coast driving up taxes and multi- generational fishing families can't afford to ply their trade. Large chunks of former paper company lands are being bought up and closed to traditional access. Not to mention the worsening mercury and dioxin problems we are getting up here in Maine as a result of all the facsist merging of business and government and the loosening of controls on the environment. The monied gentry and the Ayn Randian utopists are really having a field day right now. AT OUR EXPENSE!!

One suggestion would be for those in the know perhaps to post the names and addresses of the politicos who have sway with FWS as well as department officials and a form letter we can all send on to these people. I would imagine we could fairly swamp some desks with paper with the right info.


12-22-2004, 02:10 PM
Hello folks!

I would like to take a minute to give you an update on our Comprehensive Conservation Plan (CCP). CCPs are long term management plans that guide all aspects of refuge management. They provide a framework for management that will last for 15 years. For information about the CCP process, you can go to either or Until we make final decisions about the future management and publish a Final CCP, we will continue to operate the refuge as we have in the past. We will have public input at a number of stages along the way, starting later this winter. One of the key things to remember is that the National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of 1997 (one of our guiding laws) requires that we facilitate “wildlife dependent” recreational activities (as Keith mentioned; fishing, hunting, environmental education and interpretation, wildlife observation and photography) when we can. As you can see, fishing is one of those activities and we plan to continue to offer fishing opportunities to the public!

There are certainly lots of issues that we need to examine as a part of the process. Some of the issues are enormous. Some local issues don’t fall under our jurisdiction. Our authority extends only to the refuge boundary. At any rate, I look forward to hearing from you all during the process! The next few years are important times for Monomoy. Keep an eye on our website or drop me a line. I’d love to talk to you at any time in the process!

I have received a number of emails and phone messages from folks that want to be involved. Thanks for your interest!

Bill Perry
Refuge Planner
978-443-4661 ext.32

12-22-2004, 03:06 PM
Bill, Thanks for the input and I will call. As you know we are very concerned with the future of the rip ryder any any attempts by Outermost to corner the market to speak. We also feel that whats good for the Rip ryder is good for the fishermen and consequently good for the refuge by simplifing access to the Refuge...which will bring more people to the refuge. This may also allow for greater planning by the refuge for educational seminars and more use of the buildings there. We feel that the Rip Ryder also brings people who stop in at the refuge headquarters which they would not necessarily do so in the numbers that they would without the Rip Ryder. I know people like Dave Pearson's volunteering for certain fishing activities for children and Juro and this board's Big Brother programs are what the refuge is all about. I might add that Keith and his father are always up there and I can still see his father working around the area, cleaning up this and that.. We are particularly incensed with the pure commercializm which Outermost displays. They have not and I suspect will not give anything back, but simply up their prices making it difficult for some families to take part in the great seal cruises that is talked about by people here in Boston when they hear the word Monomoy. I know the history here..I know about the pressures that the Morris Island people are doing in the false name of public interest... They lost that battle years ago when the Refuge became Government property.... with Outermost and these people joining forces, a blind man can see what the real interests lay. I have e-mailed Keith again for Mike Brady's number and I will make every attempt to seek representation on the Friends of Monomoy...this is also coming form a summer resident of Chatham as well. Finally, Myself ,and I am sure others here, atleast the fishing crowd ,will do everything we can to volunteer our time to refuge programs and perhaps help plan future uses and events that make the refuge a place to be. Rest assure that Outermost will never offer to help out... I am speaking plainly here and stick by what I have said. Thanks again for watching this board and giving us your take. Finally, if you need any help with any studies or surveys please don't hesitate to contact me...I know where I can get help on them and it's here as well as other places. I will plan on attending any such CCP meetings and I will be prepared to counter any self interests that pop up, whether obvious or disguised, that attempt to "limit" public use for their own benefits....John Morin

12-22-2004, 06:26 PM
Thank you for your post and information. It is much appreciated! The Monomoy/South Beach/Morris Island refuge is a magnificent area for all to enjoy and appreciate. This past season, I met fly fishermen from Italy, England and Ireland.....they had read about our "treasure" and planned their vacations to experience and witness what we all hold dear. Speaking with them it was exhillerating to the feel their excitement and hear their comments of how fortunate us New Englanders are to have it in our backyards. Nothing could be more true!!!!
My fellow flyfishermen (including my "fisherperson" :-) ) hold this area in the utmost respect! A bad day of fishing there is far better than a good day anywhere else in my opinion. I'm not sure there is anything more enjoyable, even when the fish are not biting, than seeing fish in knee deep water, horseshoe crabs bumping into our feet, birds of many species to watch, and getting to listen to the barking seals.
As for the possible shuttle service issue, I have used both. This past year and for future years, I will use only Keith's at Morris. My loyalty to Keith is not about "lower" fees, it's about a "higher" experience! Rip Ryder does not simply take your buck and give you a ride (although there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself)......with Keith, we all see his love for the environment....when I speak with him, there has not been one time that I didn't learn something new about either fish, bait or tide effects, to "be careful surf side because the undertow is strong today" or hear of his concern over the area if the inlet closes and the South Beach and Monomoy join. I've overheard him many times tutoring the "birders' on the best location to see what they want to see/how long a walk it is and the time they need to allow. While flats fishing the "J" buoy area, I have overheard his seminars to the seal cruise people...always educational, always enthusiastic, people always excited! He in my opinion is a pure environmentalist of the highest order! Rip Ryder promotes the refuge and eagerly and willingly educates both new comers and old timers, and for that, he has my highest respect and appreciation! He is an asset to achieving the goals of this refuge area.
John Morin is correct....we do in fact feel fortunate and there is not one of us who wouldn't be willing to help in the achievement of the refuge goals and activities.
Ron Pasternak (Paxton)

12-22-2004, 07:34 PM
Ron... here is a post that I put in answer to OC in an accompanying thread..This is aimed directly at Morris Island residents, (NOT the refuge workers).....those that are spearheading all this stuff...I know of one resident who is not...and they maybe is what I said ,"OC... this group has it's plans.... And I am burned up about it.... We will use the press and the legacy that the national seashore was founded on... and I am talking about that Morris Island crowd...not the refuge people.... Certain Federal laws need to be studied... including the Anti-trust laws to name one. Maybe my old Law school classmate..John Kerry... same class and both on the BC Law Hockey team will lend an ear.... and watch the Democrats in action... this has potential to go way beyond the Chatham boarders... so they better BACK OFF! It would be no problem picketing on those peoples sacred grounds...on the public way.One day of that and the News will be all over the place. Keith has a great lawyer too. Phil Tracy, whom you might see ocasionally as the legal commentator on one of the Boston Channels...he is also a well known Dem as well. Phil was my best man at my wedding and I referred Keith to him. From this point on we should start using e-mails.... we have alot of this one!!!!!!!!!!Why is a swiss national (You know the type, with European aristocracy leanings)having any say in how the US public can have access to the Seashore???And did her tearing down the home next to the refuge property have anything to do with "effecting" access?????It may be time soon to go public with these questions... dig deeper... would make a great press." Big Money might be there, but we will have far more power than they think. We will have the the questions that will get all the little folk interested. If any Morris Island people e-mail me..I will post their e-mails ...word for word.

12-22-2004, 08:08 PM
One other thing...WE want to know how many private meetings have been going on. We also want to know why the animosity by this woman Libby toward Keith. We want to know about restrictions placed on Keith and they better be the same with Outermost????WE want to know why a Morris Island resident was turning pictures he took over to the refuge about Keiths landings..I do hope he also took pictures of Outermost...I mean... why not, that would seem to be odd not too, unless Morris Island has no problems with Outermost. We would want to know why. We also want to know why Outermost solicited Keith about the price set for the trips... I will not go into details on that one... We want to know more and WE will ask those questions OR a NEWSPAPER will. There you go, just the tip of the iceberg..... Keith posed these to me during the summer...

Dble Haul
12-22-2004, 08:55 PM
John, I like your fire about this.

To all others who may not know, we have some very strong allies. John is just the tip of the iceberg. If push comes to shove (and it probably will), we have the right people to help.

12-22-2004, 09:08 PM
Mark... think about it... Rich folk pushing the little guy out... and how do you think some of the absentee foreign owners will look to the common citizens of Chatham. If the parking on the causeway is an issue, that would be good since we get the Commercial Clammers in as well....and it then is an access issue also. My point is it is a classic situation that draws real interest.... Time to let it on the table... no more back office stuff.... and if Libby is managing the situation like this...someone higher up needs to know about this is about the CCP..AND WHO IS INFLUENCING WHO AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE????? get the picture????

12-23-2004, 03:31 AM
Worrying stuff, especially as a bunch of us, from the UK, are planning to come over in June!

12-23-2004, 06:51 AM
Stevo -

The involvement of people like yourself is of great value. As we develop an action plan, it will be great to have your clout as a far-traveling angler using the resource. Thanks for following this matter.

12-23-2004, 08:41 AM

No problem... You just 'shout' if you need us to do anything!

12-27-2004, 08:48 PM
I had a great conversation today with Bill Perry and we both discussed all the matters surounding the situation... I expect to be at the Public hearings on the CCP.

Dble Haul
12-28-2004, 08:11 AM
Mark... think about it... Rich folk pushing the little guy out... and how do you think some of the absentee foreign owners will look to the common citizens of Chatham. If the parking on the causeway is an issue, that would be good since we get the Commercial Clammers in as well....and it then is an access issue also. My point is it is a classic situation that draws real interest.... Time to let it on the table... no more back office stuff.... and if Libby is managing the situation like this...someone higher up needs to know about this is about the CCP..AND WHO IS INFLUENCING WHO AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE????? get the picture????

I get the picture, and I don't like what I see from their end.

Good point about the other users of the causeway.

01-05-2005, 10:56 AM
I think it's time for a private forum to discuss tactics and strategies without giving away the farm...

I will set things up today.

01-05-2005, 11:51 AM

No problem... You just 'shout' if you need us to do anything!

same for me,I've been following this and if theres anything I can do shout.

01-05-2005, 02:01 PM
count me in on this battle and my photo lab is available for this just cause.

fish we must,

Tom Tero
01-06-2005, 02:13 PM
Has anyone considered contacting On The Water about having this topic included in one of their "Publisher's Notes"? This is an important topic not only on Cape Cod but everywhere. Here in Maine it's routine to be harassed by wealthy land owners for fishing legally in front of their property--so access issues for fishermen are critical.

I hardly ever fish Monomoy--I occasionally walk down South Beach from the Lighthouse-- but this type of stuff needs to be nipped in the bud. If it goes bad there then who knows what will be next.

Besides, if you guys lose access to Monomoy it means my favorite spots further down Cape will get crowded! :tongue:

01-14-2005, 05:07 AM
Just to echo what Steve has said; let us know how you would like us UK fishermen to become involved. Quite a network of guys who us who frequent this forum and visit the Cape. I am sure there must be a "negative impact on tourism" angle to all of this.

01-16-2005, 08:45 PM
What are the dates / times and locations for these hearings?

01-16-2005, 08:54 PM
Don't know yet... waiting to hear back from Keith... and also this guy who is the Pres of the F of M...

01-16-2005, 09:02 PM
Good chat the other night.... I believe the strategy I proposed would be one good potential outcome. Your recon is of great value to the cause.

04-11-2005, 06:47 PM
I'm afraid I'm going to sacrifice what small popularity I may have enjoyed on this board up till now, but......

You guys are barking up the wrong tree getting carried away sniping at rich neighbors and competing ferry services. No matter what special interests [read- $$$$$$$] try and tell you, the federal F&W is all about the wildlife. The refuge system is there for the wildlife [and plants] and the petty arguments of humans pulls VERY little weight [really, none]. It would be well within the charter and intent of F&W to ban all humans from any given refuge if they believed the wildlife would be better off. They are not interested in the abutters' issues nor the merits of one form of transportation over another.
While it is true that fishing is blessed to be one of the "Big Six" goals of the refuge system, it should always be kept in mind that recreation is NOT the primary goal of a wildlife refuge. Not even close. IF, and I do mean IF, recreational fishing can be accomodated within the stated goals of a given refuge, it will be given consideration. If even the slightest threat to wildlife can be implicated in fishermens' activities, the Big Six means zip. Repeat after me, IT"S ALL ABOUT THE WILDLIFE!!!!

If you show up at the public comment sessions and start casting stones at the neighbors or the private vendors, you may as well have stayed home. Truthfully, you really would have been more helpful staying home. Spreading useless strife only creates a negative image of sportfishermen in the eyes of refuge managers.

I'm not just whisteling dixie here, nor am I an employee of federal F&W. I have followed the CCP process as it relates to refuges which have already confirmed their proposals. I'm not sure why Monomoy was put off but the other refuges are already done with the process. There was great controversy regarding some of the proposed changes in these other refuges yet ultimately F&W pretty much did what they said they wanted to do in the first place. It should be noted that the desires of sportfishermen were rejected in at least one of these refuges regardless of any Big Six.
Please note I do not intend this as critisism of F&W. As a matter of fact, I happen to agree with the final CCP of the other refuges.
It should also be noted that the confirmed changes in question benifit "sports men" by expanding hunting within the relevent refuges despite significant opposition from abutters. Trust me when I tell you that more anti-hunters showed up at the public comment sessions than did hunters. The proposals were confirmed nevertheless.

If you want my advice, I would forget the sportfishing aspect of your access desires, "Big Six" notwithstanding. The focus should be on public education and the benifit of making people aware of the value of the refuge to embattled sportfish such as the striped bass. An eloquent speaker who could relate the long hard road of striped bass conservation and tie it in to public awareness vis - vis the Monomoy refuge would be far, far, far more effective than 100 sportfishermen clammoring for the right to catch fish which, truth be told, could be just as easily caught in 1000 other [unprotected] places.

04-11-2005, 08:31 PM

Glad to hear from you as always but it seems you've replied to 'old news' as there are many threads since that have come after hearings and much more insight since January.

As far as being just about the wildlife... if it were only that easy. Sitting home instead of looking out for what is being proposed seems to be the problem with society lately, not the cure.

If it were only just about the wildlife, then why are private boats on the refuge not being restricted when they outnumber the ferries by orders of magnitude?

Why would a shore guide, only a handful of whom have worked the area over decades, be required to obtain a permit when the dozens of flats boats operating charter captains (a number growing each year) would not?

Why would recreational anglers, who out number the shore guides 100:1 or more have no restrictions on access to the refuge when clearly their impact exceeds that of a savvy local guide who knows what the rules are and doesn't even fish during his modest work day?

Do you really think they will restrict clamming on the refuge when the southway closes and created miles of shift of jurisdiction in favor of the refuge from the National Seashore? Or is it about more than just the wildlife but includes the centuries old legacy of commercial clammers that packed the Chatham hearing?

And why is there presentation of restricting the current ferry services, changing parking situations, locking down nighttime accesses to one-way, and all that jazz during the hearings if it's just about the wildlife?

Come on Mike! I know and respect you well and of all people you are not that naive. We all know why Monomoy was 'put off'. The more I learn about it, the more it seems that the agenda is least about the wildlife - but I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

04-11-2005, 11:03 PM
Mike, I hear you on this but it is quite a bit more as Juro points out... I have also moved in the direction of Education as one of the things the angler can give back and have so indicated to the FWS people.... But the forces here are like all politics and the access issue is part of the FWS issue...It is why they built a bueatiful refuge building and NEW tolets and have education days for the local kids. The ferry service also brings people to the refuges to use the building, stop in and see the exhibits, talk to staff, etc... stop the ferry service, will stop a majority of people from coming to the refuge HQ... that will only allow people to use the trail... and visit ...but in much less numbers... those rich folk you mention SEE this as a way to 'Limit" the refuge... thereby limit the people, thereby limit parking... all reductions... then the Monomoy staff reports back to DC and says ..."things are not to good with attendance ..Now"... then DC says . "well maybe we should put funds elsewhere where MORE people go and use the local"...Yada, Yada.... as so it goes. The Ferry service IS GOOD for the refuge AND the fisherman... AND the educational opportunities for seal watches... and beach walks, etc...etc, etc... more people is good for the refuge.... the Morris Islanders wake up at night sceaming at the thought of more people... but this is the way it will go...USE the facility... if the Morris Island people who have granted the Feds an easement to Wilkes Way put up blocks.. then the Feds should just take the road and be done with it. They would have to since that would make the refuge a ghost town. The Wildlife on Monomoy is NOT Yellowstone!!!!

04-12-2005, 04:45 PM
As I alluded in the opening of my post, I knew my point of view would not be welcomed.

Hopefully everybody can realize I meant no disrespect nor critisism of the board members. My respect and admiration for those people of the forum I know personally is beyond reproach.

I decided, against my better judgement, to add my two cents on this issue only because I have closely followed the CCP process for the Oxbow NWR which happens to be my private patch. Even as I type, the finalized copy of the CCP for Oxbow, Great Meadows and Assabet River NWRs sits on my table across the room. I have read it cover to cover [ about 300 pages] several times. I have also dealt personally [outside of the formal public comment system] with employees of federal F&W [both high ranking and low] in the North East region and feel I have a good perspective on where they are coming from.
I stand by my original opinion; you guys are barking up the wrong tree.

I will say no more on the subject. I sincerly hope you guys get what you want in this struggle. I just hope that if you do not, you will not falsely attribute the reason to influences which I firmly believe had no concrete effect. Hopefully those who know me will recognize that I am far from a nieve pollyanna and give my comments credence.
Good luck!

04-12-2005, 05:04 PM
Like I said Mike, you are certainly not naive and I hope since you are directly involved that you are correct, I truly do.

Although your feedback would be much more useful if you actually addressed the questions or provided your opinons, off the record.

I would like to (perhaps naively) believe that I walk a little more lightly, and with greater appreciation of what the refuge officials are providing since I go there more often and develop a bit more of a depth of understanding of things happening out there than the weekend warriors who often violate the nesting zones or motor around places where their boats shouldn't be at certain tides, etc.

Is the decision to require permits to be a shore guide (but not for boat captains and recreationals) based on concrete evidence that shore guides somehow impact wildlife? If so I should never guide there again.

04-13-2005, 04:43 PM
Juro I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that you tread lighter than just about anyone who may visit the refuge.

Quite frankly, I can't think of anyone I know who I'd rather see as an ambasador or representitive from the sportfishing community than you. If it were up to me, I'd make you a federal emplyee and have YOU decide who gets to fish Monomoy and how they get to fish it. I'm quite sure it become a world renouned destination of great fame. I say that with the utmost sincerity and not the least desire to stroke your feathers.

I'm not prepared to answer all your concerns from your past posts. I'm not close to the situation at Monomoy nor do I feel that this forum is the place to get all the facts. Truthfully, I have my own battles to fight and can't spare energy to delve any deeper here. You can say I should never have opened this can of worms and you would be correct. All I can say is that my experience didn't mesh with the scenario I saw portrayed here and since I respect this forum as a Cut Above, I decided to add my unsolicited $ .02 in the hopes of providing another point of view that might prevent frustration and hard feelings by dispelling what I deem to be incorrect assumptions. Take it for what it's worth or ignore it. I promise it doesn't change my wholly favorable opinion of you or any of the others on the forum.

Having said that, I will indulge my impulsive desire to express my biased opinion. My personal feeling is that it totally logical and sensible to charge a fee from individuals who charge others for access to federal land. Whether you guide, provide transportation or sell hotdogs, you are making profit from land we ALL pay taxes on. It costs money to run the federal refuge system.
I would also like to point out that the finalized CCP for the Oxbow Refuge [where I spend lots of time] includes the decision to charge an access fee to every user. Maybe I'm crazy, but I LOVE my refuge and if the longterm security and managment of it requires me to pay a modest fee, I am only too happy to. I just think about what what it would be like to live in any other country were access to such outstanding land would either be [A] nonexistent, [B] subject to exorbitant user fees, or [C] restricted to royalty or the very rich.
I'm damn glad I live in the USA.

05-12-2005, 03:59 PM
Is the decision to require permits to be a shore guide (but not for boat captains and recreationals) based on concrete evidence that shore guides somehow impact wildlife? If so I should never guide there again.
While any decision to single out one form of commercial (read rod and reel guide) fishing over another should not be considered in my humble opinion, however a permit is not such a bad idea.
A shore guide can be a great ambassador of fishing to the general public, by showing a good example. I have guided in the past when I was younger so I have some idea on how you feel. On my first trip to South beach I felt like I was in a strange new world. I was lost, I didn’t know how far away to fish from other anglers to not scare their fish away too(I off coarse scared all of mine). If I wasn’t a Marine Scientist and a Biologist I would have know Idea what kind of impact peoples feet could have or that disturbance of nesting birds can cause them to leave a nest.

On my second trip to Monomoy I took a pack rod in a back pack, and a pair of glasses(binocs) and followed a guide for the better part of a morning (I wasn’t fishing). I just watch how he placed his clients, how he avoided other fisherman and how he carried himself.

The point is not everybody knows what they are doing including guides. A permit may provide a standardize code of conduct, and strengthen/build a relationship between guides and the GOV. Maybe you can teach the GOV how to teach the average fisherman, who knows.

I have had to get permits to fish at night in many parts of the country, a couple bucks here and there is worth having opportunities.