Taking a chance asking this but.... [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Taking a chance asking this but....


JusBones
12-03-2004, 09:53 AM
Man, I got slammed elsewhere discussing 12wt sail fishing. And the commmnets were cool....obviously a 350 Blue is out of the question.....I will be in Abaco and looking to fish dolphin and with some luck a WHITE.....in the 100-150# range...anywho, a guy with a lot of experience mentioned using straight 80-100# leader (avoing complex knots that I will probably screwup)......my question is how leader shy, if at all are dolphin ? (Mahi-Mahi). If they are cooperative i might be able to use just one rig for both ? Good idea ? Crazy ? Thanks

ladyflyfsh
12-03-2004, 01:09 PM
JusBones, you should be just fine using that rig for dorado. My experience with dorado is they are not leader shy in the least. Especially when others are in competition for the bait and they see an opportunity arise (your fly) and they are very agressive. Also, it is frequent you will have several dorado competing for your fly at the same time. I often will use just a heavy leader straight with no taper and have had great success with that. I've also done the shock tippet with bimini etc. and don't think with dorado there is any sense in fancy expensive leaders.

I've fished for dorado lots in Baja and caught them on flies up to 50 pounds. You should join our group going down this next July from the 14-21st. Contact me directly if interested in info. We need at least one more to round out the group.

Good luck!

Mary
P.S. you can refer to my sailfish article entitled Loreto-Baja sailfish on the fly.

JR SPEY
12-04-2004, 08:09 AM
The biggest argument against a one-piece 80lb leader is safety. You absolutely do NOT want to have a loop of line around your leg, arm, wrist, etc. when you hook a fish or you will be leaving the boat. I feel this is particularly likely on pangas and super pangas because of their instability compared to larger vessels. The reason that class tippets were developed had at least as much to do with safety as it did in giving a fish a "sporting" chance. If you don't trust your knots, why not buy a high quality big-game leader made by companies like Rio? By the way, where can you find 150lb White Marlin in that area? I may be wrong and would love to be corrected on this, but my understanding is that most of the whites in that area are well under 100lb. That would mean a 12 weight and a standard tarpon leader should work just fine.

boogie
12-06-2004, 05:56 PM
you are talking about 80 lb leader adn then some class tippet, right?

JR SPEY
12-07-2004, 08:21 AM
The ones I tie are usually about 7' of 50lb medium hard material (Ande's or Berkley Big Game) followed by 8kg or 10kg Mason or Rio Hard IGFA for the class tippet and then a 60lb or 80lb shock of Ande's, Big Game, or even RioMax. This is a standard tarpon leader that can be lengthened or shortened by how long the butt section is. For dorado and the like you probably don't need the 9+ft this will give you. The only reasonably difficult knot in this leader is the bimini. Learn to tie that and the rest is pretty simple. I usually tie mine to IGFA specs, but having a longer shock tippet isn't "cheating" and will usually allow you to land more fish.

Philster
12-08-2004, 10:27 AM
Hmmm the old argument again about one piece leaders... Straight 80 or 100 has no real advantages and one big disadvantage. your line is more likely to break than your leader if you NEED to break the fish off. Even if you use a weak knot like a Homer Rhode loop... Remember it's about abrasion resistance, not tippet strength.

Learn to tie good saltwater leaders, then go 27# to 35# for the class tippet, and use 100# or 125# fluorocarbon for the bite. And go long. 4 to 6 feet of bite. You aren't going to set a world record, and it's about abrasion resistance, remember that! Don't worry about leader shyness or anything.

JR SPEY
12-09-2004, 06:38 AM
Any class tippet over 22lb (10kg) increases the safety risk significantly. One of the reasons the IGFA didn't approve the Big Game Class a couple of years ago (which would have allowed 30lb class tippets) was the safety issue and the possibility of legal liability on their part. Line that comes flying up off the deck when a fish first starts to run can get caught on a lot of things. If it's your leg or arm you are in serious trouble.

Philster
12-09-2004, 09:45 PM
Any class tippet over 22lb (10kg) increases the safety risk significantly. One of the reasons the IGFA didn't approve the Big Game Class a couple of years ago (which would have allowed 30lb class tippets) was the safety issue and the possibility of legal liability on their part. Line that comes flying up off the deck when a fish first starts to run can get caught on a lot of things. If it's your leg or arm you are in serious trouble.


I agree, but most people tie such bad knots... :rolleyes:

Eddie
12-25-2004, 10:24 AM
i see no reason to have a tippet stronger than 20#. anything heavier and you may as well be fishing with a conventional rig. a longer shock is a good call.

teflon_jones
01-14-2005, 01:31 PM
I was just watching a fishing show a couple of days ago where a guy landed a 250+ lb sailfish on a 12 lb tippet. Maybe it was "Walker's Cay Chronicles"? The host wasn't the one who did it, it was the guide/captain. I couldn't freakin believe it. 12 lb tippet for THAT?!?!??! :Eyecrazy:

JR SPEY
01-15-2005, 09:56 AM
There is something not correct in your information. The IGFA record for Pacific sailfish on a fly is only 136 pounds. Even the all time all tackle record sail is only 221 pounds. Therefore, either your weight or your species is incorrect. With care it is quite possible to catch large fish on relatively light tippets. Doing so is somewhat controversial because it either requires having the fish on for a very long time which increases the chance that you will kill it, or it requires the captain to back down on the fish very quickly, for the leader butt to touch the rodtip (therefore supposedly making it an official catch) and then either trying to get the fish to throw the hook or breaking it off. Since I don't have cable I wasn't able to see the program you're referring to so I don't know which way they went with this fish. By the way, twelve pound really isn't too bad. A good fisherman can land a sailfish of normal size in a reasonable time with high quality twelve pound class tippet material. The real circus is when they start using two, four, and six pound class.

Is it possible the fish they caught was a marlin? A 250 pound striped marlin on twelve pound class is about the same as a 100 pound sail on four or six pound. Marlin are so tough to get on the fly and have so much more endurance than a sailfish, that almost everyone uses at least a twenty pound class when pursuing them. The truth is that some guys say to heck with the IGFA or a possible record and use thirty pound or more. I'd be curious to know if you think you had the weight or the species incorrect.

northforkLI
02-16-2005, 04:49 PM
Fish was a marlin - approx. 250 lbs. They were setup for sailfish when they hooked up.

josko
02-27-2005, 07:53 PM
Some of these replies leave one wondering just how much offshore fly experience the posters have had. You should be plenty fine with 30# tippet for mahi. You can go up to 50#, but will have a difficult time keeping tight loops with heavier leaders, and it will hurt your distance, If you're not fishing for records, I'd just tie on a stretch of 30# or 40# to your fly line and have at it. If you get a marlin in your spread, try it with 6' of 50#, to keep from abrading on the bill.
If you have a good boat driver, he/she shoiulf be able to get you on top of the fish regardless oif your tackle, and then you have to work a bit. With anything over 100#, a 15 wt is a help but not essent6ial. Just point your rod at the fish and crank the reel. It doesn't feel too elegant, but works well, and the stretch in the fly line will keep you from breaking off. Keep as myuch bend in the rod as you feel is safe, but just keep crankiong the reel.
The most important thing with mahi is to have a variety of flies ready. If they 'catch onto' a particular fly pattern and just follow it to the boat, a drastically different fly will get themn to hit again. I've caught mahi up to 54# on a 10# and haven't felt overmatched. Just jerk on them a bit to get them to go airborne and wear themselves out.

Eddie
02-28-2005, 08:52 AM
Josko, for Dorado, why would you need to go over 20#? I have caught them up to 40# with 20# flouro and no shock. I don't remember ever breaking off (well. maybe one or twice to bad knots). Do Mahi Mahi have sharper teeth?
Why would you want a tippet to be stronger than your line or backing?
Why not just have a longer shock for marlin (say 3.5')?
I should add that some people enjoy fishing under IGFA regs (even if they don't want to go for a record). It gives them a bench mark.

Roop
02-28-2005, 11:42 AM
[QUOTE=].
If you have a good boat driver, he/she shoiulf be able to get you on top of the fish regardless oif your tackle, and then you have to work a bit. With anything over 100#, a 15 wt is a help but not essent6ial. Just point your rod at the fish and crank the reel. It doesn't feel too elegant, but works well, and the stretch in the fly line will keep you from breaking off. Keep as myuch bend in the rod as you feel is safe, but just keep crankiong the reel.
[QUOTE]

Listen to Josko re: fighting fish.

I read an article on Florida Sportsman, "Take It to the Limit, Shorten battles like a fly tournament champion, By Terry Gibson" Which discusses the system Andy Mills uses to determine the capabilities of his gear.

Regardless of what you think of Andy Mills, the guy C&R BIG fish and this is some good info - at least food for thought.

Personally I'm sick of seeing photos of stressed out exhausted fish from being landed on too light fly gear.

Just my $.02

Roop

Eddie
02-28-2005, 03:06 PM
"Personally I'm sick of seeing photos of stressed out exhausted fish from being landed on too light fly gear."

Really no different than sticking a gaff in its head. Well maybe the fish has a snowballs chance of making it....but those sharks are pretty good at catching up with a hurting fish.
I am equally sick of seeing photos and video of bloated grouper with their eyes bugged out, billfish that have coughed up their stomachs (from being gut hooked). Why bother with the release.
At some point, heavy (conventional) gear is required to give the fish a chance to recuperate. The angler and captains skill has everything to do with when that point comes. With a twelve weight, I think that twenty pound test is more than enough.
Light tackle fishing (for BIG fish) is kind of like trophy fishing. I don't begrudge anyone for keeping a trophy, and I can't really hold it against anyone for trying to catch a big fish on light tackle. A good angler fishing light, probably causes less mortality than the thousands of idiots out there gut hooking fish, poaching and on and on. And then there are the comecial cheaters....oh boy :(

Adrian
02-28-2005, 10:45 PM
I agree with a lot of what's been said here. Josko is right on the money both in terms of fish fighting technique and lack of experience. The sad fact is it's more than a bluewater issue.

I've seen enough schoolie stripers played out to the point of near death on "adequate" 9wt gear to know we have a major angler education on our hands. Each year the catch and release mortality debate resurfaces with slightly more vehamence than previously. And by the way, a 28 inch striper is a fine fish but its still a schoolie!

It really doesn't help when manufacturers make claims of the fish subduing properties of their latest xyz brand of rod. Fly rods are designed to cast fly lines are crap tools for fighting fish - period :tsk_tsk:

I'm not sure what it's going to take to get the message across. There seem to be enough big names who almost all agree on standard saltwater fish fighting technique. Maybe it's just counterintuitive for folks who make the transition from freshwater or conventional gear to take the rod out of play? And yet fish fighting technique seems to get scant attention in "how to" articles or books designed to introduce newcomers to the sport.

A couple of seasons back someone on this forum came up with a brilliant poster campaign on Striper size limits with guidelines for release. It had a big impact. Unfortunately "bring the fish to hand as quickly as possible" assumes a certain level of knowledge that can't be taken for granted.

Maybe we could launch a FIGHT FAIR campaign for 2005?

juro
02-28-2005, 11:56 PM
[QUOTE=].
Personally I'm sick of seeing photos of stressed out exhausted fish from being landed on too light fly gear.

This is a concerning statement. So I thought about all the fish pics I've seen in recent months, the TV shows, the pics at all the shows, videos, etc.

I have to conclude that we must be reading different materials... all I see are fish hanging on bogagrips with three galvanized treble hooks in their faces or gut hooked and bleeding, being kissed and held out of the water for ten minutes while the TV character does the play by play as if anyone but him gives a sh*t.

I see more and more fly caught fish being held and released while in the water, with few exceptions that's how I release mine but for the occasional photo opp. I land 40" stripers on the flats on a 9wt and they scream off like torpedoes when I pick the barbless single hook from their maw without bogagripping them, weighing them, netting them or kissing them.

What species, regions, and situations are you referring to? I haven't seen it.

josko
03-01-2005, 07:53 AM
I'm skeptical about post-release recovery of most pelagic fish, particularly those caught on fly tackle. Years back, I was involved in a blue marlin tagging/tracking study. These were smallish fish caught, handled and released on 130# reels by experts trained in stress physiology. We found almost 2/3 of tagged fish fell prey to sharks within 48 hrs. I think it's no coincidence the schoolie bluefin flyfishing grounds are the best sharking areas as well. One thresher we got last august had at least 3 partially digested sbft in its stomach. And I don't think they can catch SBFT in normal conditions.
You have to assume that a pelagic fish caught on fly tackle has slim chances of post-release recovery. Even if it does swim off 'vigorously', it's tired enough to stand out from the school, and that's often enough.
I think we've all had double digit SBFT days, You just have to accept that say, 3/4 of the released fish died soon afterwards. If that bothers you, don't fish for them.

Eddie, I like to fish for pelagics with 30# fluoro leader. Yes, it might be a tad heavy for dolphin, but if a tuna shows up, I don't have to go scrambling. 30# is heavy enough to allow for some slop with knots and still breaks before the flyline (well, usually at the flyline knot for me). The advantage of a 50# leader is that it willusually survive if a fish gets a tailwrap and straighens out, or if it's going airborne a lot. It will still usually break at the flyline knot if you give it a lot of pull.
That said, I have a lot pf respect for folks who choose to fish by IGFA rules. I've tried it, and found the tippet section too severe a handicap; I didn't think release was an option for boated fish (plus they all taste sour and mushy from being too exhausted). I've met people who are very good at it, but far too many are just stoked up on magazine articles without even a clear idea of what they are about. The latter makes for very tiresome boat partners sometimes.

Eddie
03-01-2005, 09:01 AM
I have to agree with most of what is said here, but I think that flyfishermen, inspite of their many faults, are still generally kinder to the resource that other fishermen. Blue water is different. Like Josko, I have doubts that many of the released bft make it. A long fight and relatively short revival can't be good.
I suspect that for each species there is some sort of ratio of fight time to revival. For a striper of any size, a two-three minute fight would not call for much of a revival. You can see the spunk as they take off. A fish that sulks off is probably still hurting. Those day long epic battles with marlin and bluefin surely lead to a sharks buffet. They should probably be revived for a couple of days. Maybe an exageration, it is hard to tell.
Like I sad befor, if an angler wants to take on the challenge of light tackle fishing, and kills some fish, I can't begrudge them of that. Their impact is so small compared to the others. How many bluefin died last year as a result of flyfishing? I doubt more than a couple of hundred. Fishing is a blood sport. Fish die sometimes. Less is best and we all have our ethical compass that guides us. We have all killed fish and we all have learned and grown wiser.
The rookie flyfishemen we see on the beach playing a schoolie for five minutes are still learning. Fish will die, and they will learn. GOODNEWS! Those folks don't catch many fish.
Bait fishermen kill far more fish. A beach I know on the cape has two or three dead fish washing up on the shore almost every morning. It is a popular spot with bait fishermen. The comercial striper guys in N.C. kill ridiculous amounts of fish high grading. Stripers are starving and diseased in the chesapeak (sp). My point is that flyfishermen should strive to minimize their impact, but never feel as if they are major players in the impact of the fishery.
Josko, what knot are you using @ the fly line?

Roop
03-01-2005, 11:27 AM
This is a concerning statement. So I thought about all the fish pics I've seen in recent months, the TV shows, the pics at all the shows, videos, etc.

What species, regions, and situations are you referring to? I haven't seen it.

First of all from personal experience, I've tried to release fish that I've landed in heavy current & no matter how hard I tried to resuscitate them, they wound up on the grill. Kind of a buzz kill.

B. ;) I don't want to acuse or drag anyone into this, plenty of pictures right here on the forum.

Take a look at the dorsal fins of fish in pictures - that's a perfect meter of a fish's health. As a matter of fact, how about the jackass in the lower right hand corner of this picture?

http://www.flyfishingforum.com/volume4/collage.jpg

I'm proud of the fact that the majority of fish my guests & I catch look as healthy as this:

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/050966.jpg

or this

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/050965.jpg

I've tried to release a few that looked like this but they just sank to the bottom. :lildevl:

http://umami.typepad.com/umami/frying-thumb.JPG

juro
03-01-2005, 12:43 PM
I prefer not to lift them from the water...

http://www.chathamangler.com/channels/reports/2003/1067781303/1099-testing.jpg

http://flyfishingforum.com/chronicles/monomoy2000/juros/new/full/morriskeeper.jpg

Or leave their body weight in the water while I remove the hook...

http://www.chathamangler.com/channels/reports/2003/1052761239/fathead.jpg

But for an occasional photo op...

http://www.chathamangler.com/channels/reports/2003/1056976537/screamer.jpg


But I am not against keeping one for the grill... (fresh Olympic Peninsula coho)
http://www.chathamangler.com/channels/reports/2003/1063553603/filet1.jpg

juro
03-01-2005, 12:58 PM
BTW -

IMHO the dorsal is only a sign that the fish feels threatened, most likely from aggressive lipping and only relates to health in that the fish is able to recognize the threat, if there is one. Many a healthy fish puts it's dorsal down if the holder is not yanking it's jaw around.

For example, the disposition of a bonefish when handled well verses not is night and day; or a lobster, etc. A fish will take some rest when the threat appears to be diminished as the hook is removed, it's up to the angler to treat it with care.

The eye position tells much more than the fins if the fish is not being threatened by lipping or held up for a picture. By the time a fish is unable to recognize a threat it's eyes will be staring nearly straight out to each side.

I believe in targeting fish of this size in tough conditions with an 11-12wt rod that takes less effort to cast than a single hander yet puts a serious stick to the fish even in rough conditions.

(This is a bluewater topic and we are way off base with the inshore striper discussion - sorry)

Roop
03-02-2005, 10:21 AM
You're right, apples & oranges, moving on....