how many are committed to something besides egg patterns ? [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: how many are committed to something besides egg patterns ?


h2o
11-08-2004, 07:37 PM
I was wondering how many anglers here are committed to fishing/tying something besides egg patterns & bead head nymphs most of the time for Steelhead ?Be it streamers, buggers,wets,soft hackles,speys...............just wondering.

Second question - who is still using a single handed rod besides myself for the above ?
Third - do you prefer to fish sink tips when possable ?

peter-s-c
11-08-2004, 08:04 PM
I'm on the ten step program to never using eggs and nymphs again -- speys and streamers only.

What's a "single handed rod"?

Sinktips? What other way is there?

Gillie
11-08-2004, 09:01 PM
1 year without an egg or nymph in the box. Before that I tried to carry both but found myself pulling out the eggs when things got tough.

If your serious you just have to go cold turkey.

Gillie

DARKSTAR
11-08-2004, 09:20 PM
Speys, wets, and the occaisonal nymph only

2 handed only(pref cane)

Lead-free and loving it, mend, mend, mend

I fish floating lines only, unless I am fishing the mouths

Bob Pauli
11-08-2004, 09:55 PM
h2o,
When you say nymph, do you mean nymph artificial as per English language, or do you use nymph as a pseudonym for 'indicator' fishing?

Moose
11-08-2004, 10:05 PM
I "Prefer" to fish beadhead nymphs and wets on a floating line and long leader, but have found myself switching to the eggs after spells of fishlessness and have hooked up more on the eggs. As a consolation to this I reward myself for not seeing my spey rods as "Fine, expensive long crawler poles", although I'm sure my catch rates would soar with a bit of garden hackle on the hook.

Should we start a thread on how to keep a worm on a hook while executing a snap T and 80 foot forward spey? I'm thinking a few whip finish turns and some Zap-a-Gap. :whoa:

h2o
11-08-2004, 10:45 PM
O.K. I am in the right spot. This site was dead a year or so ago, haven't been here since, glad to see it picked up.

Yea, I have done some step programs myself there is one for everything these days....................Why just the other day a stranger was telling me about a new self help group he joined............."paranoids anonymous" ............I asked him................"where are the meetings held"....................he would not tell me ........................lame joke (but I am not above that :p )


Kind of hard to fish egg patterns when you stop carrying them isn't it, been there done that. Not much of a fly from a tyers standpoint anywho.


Bob, I guess I used it as a pseudo....................but, isn't that some kind of fake seal dubbing or something :hihi:

I will be back.................

Dornblaser
11-09-2004, 09:41 AM
I use mostly Speys and Streamers as well although I do carry a small box with eggs in it. That is mostly habit and my wife is now joining me steelheading. Since she is new and not as proficient at mending as she will be she does use egg patterns. I do use tips and sink tip lines sometimes in the winter.

JDJones
11-09-2004, 12:07 PM
indicator is a pseudonym for,,,,,,,,BOBBER :eek:

I find it more enjoyable to fish a traditional fly on a floating line and a long leader,,,,,,,even though my catch rate suffers.
One day I will get this thing figured out. A fly design that will get down without multiple wraps of lead. Where I can find fish in water that I can get the fly down far enough. When & where I can skate a fly across the surface.
Meanwhile, I take pleasure in being able to fish my fly in places that are out of reach of those that are trying to drift fish with a fly rod. :Eyecrazy:

removed_by_request
11-09-2004, 12:08 PM
Ditto on what Peter said, will add to list tubes and hairwings.

Down and dirty is the way to swing.

flytyer
11-09-2004, 02:21 PM
I never fish egg patterns or nymphs, and I hate cating weighted flies on my 2-hand rods. I use my 2-handers for 99% of my fishing and only use a single-hand rod on one nearby river (actually a mid-sized stream not more than 40' across at its widest sections) and then it is an 11' 8/9 that use with spey casts to keep out of the brush and trees behind. I use floating lines in the lower and low waters of summer/fall and sink tips the rest of the year.

Spey, dee, G.P.'s, Ally Shrimps (in original orange-red, purple, hot pink/orange, and Andy Wren's Cut Silk versons), featherwing low water and full dressed, skaters, wakers, and several Irish Shrimp style flies are what I use because I like the way they look and prefer that action of feather wings over hair wings.

peter-s-c
11-09-2004, 02:33 PM
indicator is a pseudonym for,,,,,,,,BOBBER :eek:

I find it more enjoyable to fish a traditional fly on a floating line and a long leader,,,,,,,even though my catch rate suffers.
One day I will get this thing figured out. A fly design that will get down without multiple wraps of lead. Where I can find fish in water that I can get the fly down far enough.

JD

Had some interesting experiences with fly hydrodynamics over the years. When I was playing around with float foam on the bodies of my streamers to get them closer to neutral buoyancy, one variant would leap out of the water, like a fleeing minnow, when stripped hard. Useless for catching fish but neat to watch.

Last year I was in NC on a fly flinger vs. bassing hardware chucker contest (me against two locals -- lawyers to boot -- I lost -- wonder why?) During one part of the trip, Jeffie the owner of the bay boat, announces that since the casting isn't getting us any stripers, we'll troll the river for them. They have rapalas on bass rods and I have a 10 wt. with a T-7 fullsink and a big clouser. Guess who was hitting bottom and catching the only fish? Me! The shape of the clouser nose was pushing the fly deep on the troll. I've since experimented with this method when pike fishing and have hung up on bottom at depths of 10'.

So, how about inventing a shovel-nosed spey fly? Tie a flatwing on top and spread some head cement over the front third or so as to have it holds its position and shape. Make sure there's some material just behind the flatwing so it holds it up at an angle to the flow of the current, producing a downward force on the fly. I have some unweighted flatwing speys already tied up -- gonna get the glue out tonight. :D

JDJones
11-09-2004, 02:45 PM
I've been wondering about this but been afraid to ask. But most of you on this thread may be OK with this.
But I have to wonder if the situation up here on the Rogue, the indy, two fly, nymph rig, and more importantly, the type of water (slots) these guys prefer to fish, may have evolved from guys that used to fish the same "holes/slots" with drift gear? It seems to me, ('course I'm the new kid on the block up here) that very few employ any kind of a cross river swing. It's all slot fishing.
And no, it doesn't bother me how one chooses to fish. Just that they camp rather than rotate through a run. But if the above is true, then that is maybe not the right water to swing a fly through anyway.

JDJones
11-09-2004, 02:53 PM
Hey Peter, I love it. Really, it's just an improvement, utilizing modern materials, of a Dee style fly. Ive tried Dahlgerg Divers, but probably haven't really spent enough time with them. Keep us posted on the "rapala" fies. :razz:

peter-s-c
11-09-2004, 07:07 PM
This fly is a bit mangled from being in the fly box for about a year but it does give some idea of the general arrangement. There's no material behind the wing to get it to stand up and that would have to be changed on the next attempts. The fly was just an experiment in traditional spey hackling technique -- bought the "Spey and Dee Flies" book so I had to give it a whirl. It wasn't meant to be a fish catching fly, just practice, but this patttern has taken a few fish so I'll persist with it.

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/flatwingspey-1.jpg

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/flatwingspey-2.jpg

h2o
11-09-2004, 09:09 PM
I've been wondering about this but been afraid to ask. But most of you on this thread may be OK with this.
But I have to wonder if the situation up here on the Rogue, the indy, two fly, nymph rig, and more importantly, the type of water (slots) these guys prefer to fish, may have evolved from guys that used to fish the same "holes/slots" with drift gear? It seems to me, ('course I'm the new kid on the block up here) that very few employ any kind of a cross river swing. It's all slot fishing.
And no, it doesn't bother me how one chooses to fish. Just that they camp rather than rotate through a run. But if the above is true, then that is maybe not the right water to swing a fly through anyway.

JD, While many float fishing guides became cross dresser's and added fly-float guiding to the "can do" list of services provided, I doubt it "evolved" from float fishers alone. In one form or another it has been around many,many,many years............it just reared its head again. They "prefer" to fish that type water because a) it works and they don't know how to do anything else or b) in frog/swing water they don't know that you can toss a tight looped downstream mend with the flyline, lift the butt & drop the tip of your fly rod, wave the rod tip a little, feed line, .............the loop "sets" after about 20' and then its feed & auto go for a 90' drag free drift. They set with a tug of the line with the float,bobber,indicator way down stream. Thats what you have to look :Eyecrazy: forward to in the prime swing water when the seasoned float & fly number counters move in............sorry. Yea and they do hole sit, because they can keep pounding them on that dead drift just by making small adjustments to fly's, shot, depth, etc. All you can do is hope they get bored fishing that way.

flytyer
11-09-2004, 11:48 PM
Peter,

A fellow by the name of Don Kaas of Port Angeles (who may no longer be alive) showed me the same style of wing on spey flies back in 1991. Don used G.P. breast feathers or dyed G.P. saddle feathers doubled and laid flat for the wing. He also usually put 3 or 4 strands of Krystal Flash of the fly body color under the wing and tied the wing very slightly elevated above horizontal while having the wing go slightly beyond the hook point.

I tie and fish three flies winged in this fashion.

Don Kaas's Red Knight [tip: silver oval; tail: hot pink G.P. tippet; tag: florescent flame floss (1/3rd body length); mid- 1/3rd body: florescent flame dubbing; front 1/3rd body: hot pink dubbing; rib: oval silver; hackle: blue eared pheasant or other dark dun spey feather (whiting spey hackle in dark dun is excellent in you don't have blue eard pheasant); under wing: hot pink Krystal Flash (4 strands); face hackle: teal or gadwall; wing: hot pink G.P. saddle under G.P. breast feather tied flat; head: red thread]. This is one of my favorite clear water flies during winter/spring and I fish it exclusively on Alec Jackson Spey Hook #1.5

My own fly that a friend of mine named the Redwing Black Bird [tip: oval silver; body: black dubbing; rib: oval silver; hackle: black spey feather; face hackle: dyed scarlet grey mallard, teal, or gadall flank; wing: two dyed scarlet G.P. saddle feathers tied flat; head: red thread]. I tie and fish this one on Alec Jackson Spey Hooks in #3, #5, and #7. The #3 is used in cold, clear low water in winter, and the smallest is used during the low water of late summer/early fall.

And the third is another of my flies that has no name. It was developed for my friend Bob Arnold's Royal Flash marabou spider and used the same red and blue coloration. [tag: oval gold; body: royal blue dubbing (it is easy to make from royal blue yarn if you can't find any pre-made. I like a product called Lazer Yarn, which I don't know if it is still on the market); rib: oval gold; hackle: red spey feather; underwing: 4 stands red pearlescent Krystal Flashface hackle: royal blue dyed grey mallard, teal, or gadwall (kingfisher blue, torquoise, or S.D. blue works nearly as well); wing: two dyed scarlet G.P. saddle feathers tied flat; head: blue thread.] This is the fly I will tie on first any time you get that low, cold, clear water in winter and I only tie it on #3 and #5 Alec Jackson Spey Hooks. It has worked very well for me in clear winter flows in #5 and is a favorite in glacial rivers that are clearing after having gone out from rain.

Shaq
11-10-2004, 03:02 PM
I wish I was committed to it but it has started to become integrated into my bag of tricks. I guess, because I have to drive 2 1/2 hours to hook a steelhead, I want to hook a steelhead and if that takes a mcfly foam egg to do it, that's what it takes. I usually spend a good amount of time trying popsickles and speys and the like but, since I have been using spey rods for only a year, the confident level isn't too high yet,.

Geoff

peter-s-c
11-10-2004, 03:16 PM
Flytyer

Sounds like nice flies -- any pictures available for them?

flytyer
11-10-2004, 04:04 PM
Peter-

Here is Don Kaas's Red Knight tied without the gadwall face hackle. Unfortunately, my scanner changes the colors of florescent oranges to a sort of pink, which is why the body colors appear to be all a light pink.

peter-s-c
11-10-2004, 04:14 PM
Very nice -- great looking hackle too.

Makes me think of a subject for another thread; the value of colourful flies, what the oldtimers in Scotland would've called "fancies" and the more drab flies that rely on natural hues. Obviously both work, but how they work will be different.

Shaq
11-10-2004, 04:16 PM
Have any of you read Bob VerVerka's Book on Spey Flies and how to tie them? Really good sections on the conversion from Atlantic Salmon to Steelhead.

peter-s-c
11-10-2004, 04:26 PM
Haven't so far -- I'll have to look it up.

JDJones
11-10-2004, 04:27 PM
Hell, now I'll have to buy another one. :D

Shaq
11-10-2004, 04:28 PM
Also worth the price just for the color slides

flytyer
11-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Peter-

Here is a scan of the Redwing Black Bird Spey.

flytyer
11-10-2004, 04:38 PM
Shaq,

I have listed Veverka's and Shewey's books in my thread on salmon/steelhead fly tying books because I consider both of them to be excellent resources and essential books for those interested in salmon/steelhead flies. I have a preference for Veverka's book though because of his inclusion of a section on materials and material selection in the front of the book.

peter-s-c
11-10-2004, 04:43 PM
Peter-

Here is a scan of the Redwing Black Bird Spey.

Now that one would make a great Grand River fly, they're suckers for red and black or purple and black.

Where do you guys get such great hackle?

Shaq
11-10-2004, 04:50 PM
I haven't read Shewey's book, what is the title so I can go out and get it. Until I read Ververka's book, I was just hacking through some of the flies. I never knew how big the spey flies should be.

I have some some thoughts on the Great Lakes Tribs, especially in my area.

The make-up of our river bottoms are a mostly shale which creates hard ledges and areas which are hard to swing flies to because the heads of the pools may be 3 feet but two feet downstream may drop to 7 or 8. Holding water sometimes consists of funky little current breaks created by sharp pieces sticking up. It's not a very nice environ to swing speys. When I get to the pools, swinging flies seems to work as well as any other technique. One of the best ways to fish the shale is to nymph it. It doesn't seem like cheating to me, I spend alot of time fishing for trout this way with my four weight. Does it make me a bad guy?

Any thoughts?

Charlie
11-10-2004, 04:54 PM
Very interesting thread. I myself do not like to dead drift, with or without a bobber (aka strike indicator). It just bores the hell out of me and I think it looks silly when you do it with a spey rod. Some will say that dead drifting is more affective than swinging flies and in a number of cases they are correct. However, I have caught my share of Steelhead and it is no longer a numbers game for me. If I sound arrogant that is not my intention. I donít have a problem with anyone fishing the way they want as long as they are not rude about it.

As for the flies Peter and Flytyer put up, very interesting. And some nice ties. Did you ever think about standing the wing up at a slight angle to get it to plain down? Perhaps if you stacked a small amount of deer hair under the wing and trimmed the butts very close to the hook shank with the tips pointing back you might get the desired results. It would take only a very small amount of hair and would not ad to much buoyancy to the fly.

Charlie.

topwater
11-10-2004, 05:16 PM
the question of color is an interesting one. i have always liked bright flies, although if i had to choose one color it would be black. while most of my fishing has been out west, i've had a blast swinging flies for the past month in the great lakes region. i've did well initially on black's and purple's... but just didn't find willing fish on brighter colors (orange, pink). and just in the past couple weeks, i've been playing with natural colors (olive, grizzly) and believe i've been doing much better, even in dirty water flows. whether that's because great lakes fish feed more (i really don't know) i started changing to more natural hues when i noticed the sculpins in the shallows and it has paid off for me.

but, i'm believe confidence is a key factor in flies... and that may probably has more to do with my lack of success with brighter flies. the better i do with darker and natural colors, the less i'm going to reach for something else during the lulls that happen throughout the day.

as an aside, you have one hell of a fishery out here.

chris

flytyer
11-10-2004, 06:18 PM
Peter,

The hackle on the Red Knight is blue-eared pheasant. The hackle on the Redwing Black Bird Spey is good old fashioned, much maligned schlappen prepared in the fashion Steve Gobin showed 13 years ago (I've got the directions for how to do it elsewhere on a schlappen thread).

Charlie,

I don't have a digital camera so I have to scan my flies to put them up on the forum. Unfortunately, not only does my scanner alter the color of florescent hues, when a fly is scanned, it gets canted a tad. This results in the flat-winged speys appearing like the wing is tented or laying right on top of the body. The wing actually rides up at a slight angle from the body (just like a wing on a G.P.) and when the fly is under tension, it helps to push it down in the water column.