: Atlantis Lines (2)
09-10-2004, 11:27 AM
I have 3 12 wt x 45 ft airflo shoting heads - intermediate, D3 and D7.
I find the 45 ft to be too long and want to trim them down - perhaps 40ft to start.
Does any body have the weights of thses 45 ft heads and how much weight is lost by triming their lenght. Is it as simple as the total weight minus the (TW/ 45)x feet trimed.
What is the optimum weight to load the rod, I beleive Juro mentioned 550 grams. Perhaps I should trim each head back to be 550 grams ?
First time out with the Atlantis on Crane beach, mas this past weds - caught (2) fat 36 inch stripers and 20 or so betwwen 22-30 inch. what a start!!!!. Its is very handy to have the scale on the rod.
Thanks for all contirutions to my questions
Two things to offer:
1) strip the back end of the head to the hands and the line will roll cast easily between casts provided you use a 'dynamic' roll cast out to the side and leaving only a little bit of line in the water at the leader junction. This is sort of a forward spey motion that can roll a lot of line
2) use a sideslip to start the cast, meaning after stripping the fly in slip the line thru the fingers as you come back to the roll cast position, then flip the rest of the head out there straight. Pick it up immediately upon landing and it will come off the water like it did in the yard
I am not sure what the grains per foot on the back end of that head is but I sent a PM with some easy and inexpensive ways to get what you want.
Congrats on the NICE fish!! I expect Lefty to jump in any second now... :lildevl:
09-10-2004, 04:06 PM
Could you share some details about your remarkable Crane beach outing? Were you sight fishing or blind casting? To the left or right of the swimming area? Time and tide? I've been there once, and I'm trying to learn something about the area. Found it a bit uncomfortable because of swimmers/walkers ranging up and down he beach.
09-10-2004, 06:50 PM
Dick, one trick I use when shortening heads, is to mark the back of the head every two feet with indelible marker. Cast the rod repeatedly with varying amounts of head still inside the tip of the rod. Take note of where the rod feels and casts best for you, then cut the head a foot or two longer than that.
Do it again, cutting a bit more off for fine tuning.
09-10-2004, 06:52 PM
Fishstu, Be Careful about cutting to much off. I cut two Airflo heads back to 35' ; an intermediate and a type 3 sinker. I did cut from the rear of the line. Now these two lines are a little to light to bring out the best action in the rod :mad: One fellow did write about this about 4 weeks ago. He cut his to 40' and he thinks it's just about right. I did end up buying some 35' Airflo heads.
09-10-2004, 08:08 PM
just because you cut off a little too much. Unless you threw away what you cut off, you can rejoin it pretty easily with Dana's flex-zap method (on speypages.com), the same basic method used in building your own spey lines.
I agree in principle w/ jay's suggestion as a quick and dirty method of getting a gut feel estimate but it ignores two important considerations which have a impact on two-handed overhead casting especially with lighter faster rods:
1) Effect of load from belly grains within the guides
Having a fat or high-density belly (as these lines we are discussing will have) within the guides changes the load of the rod dramatically. Keep in mind once cut running line will replace this load and the feel will be significantly changed.
2) Effect of overhang during actual casting
I am not sure it's possible to determine the effect of overhang (shooting an appropriate amount of running line into the final false cast) by tip casting a percentage of the belly and marking/cutting it as described.
It seems to be a good way to get a general idea but when you cut, you're still guessing at best what the impact will be of the above.
09-11-2004, 06:28 AM
Juro, that's why I recommend leaving the head a couple of feet longer than you think you need it to be.
09-11-2004, 09:03 AM
I wouldn't cut the heads back at all.
Off the Rajeff site, the floater is 628, intermediate is 569, T3 is 622, and T7 is 638.
I've weighed my floater at 630 and T7 at 640.
The rod will also cast the 35' and the Airflo WF-12-I striper line but the extra length of the 45' heads works better for longer casts (see other Atlantis threads on this subject). I've had trouble casting these heads in the past but it was just a case of improving my technique. I now have a complete set of 12 wt. 45', 12 wt. 35', and 10 wt. 35' and use them for overhead and underhand casting on a variety of rods.
Congrats on the fish BTW -- sounds like a super outing.
Good point, I missed that and/or it wasn't clear to me how that translated into compensation for the belly in the guides and overhang. Of course this would vary with length of rod, overall grain distribution and length of front and rear tapers. So in some cases a couple feet would be four, and others it would be two, etc. But I can guess that's what the multiple cuts are for.
Boy it would be a real shame to lose those wonderful airflo loop connectors! As Ted mentions you might consider cutting out some of the mid-belly and re-splicing instead. Tim Rajeff can tell you what the level belly weight is and you can do accurate (within manuf. tolerances) weight reduction calculations as a function of length reduction.
Including the list of full lines and shooting heads, I use 30ft, 35ft, 38ft, 45ft and 54ft heads depending on the situation. I like some better than others, but they all play a role. Frankly I wish they could all be as short as possible without flailing but the challenge is to sustain the loop form in casts over 100ft with a head length that is less than 1/3 the distance of the cast. Not a trivial problem to solve from a line design perspective I am sure.
Using the longer heads when casting over 100ft makes life much easier, the 'wedge' in the line doesn't run out of runway. Fishing them however is a pain for stripers because you need to strip the head in each time to get the most play in front of the fish.
As the experts say lines in the mid-30's are about the best compromise for two-handed overhead casting and fishing. When you have some spey casting mixed in, I prefer longer tapers / head lengths; when purely in strip and shoot mode the shorter the better as long as the line doesn't flail on long casts.
09-13-2004, 10:07 AM
Thanks Guys for all of the feed back. I am leaving my (3) 45 ft lines alone for now. I may grow into them with improved casting. This was my first fishing trip using the Atlantis - It is different casting waist deep in water to breaking fish, than standing on dry ground, I found the timing and griping the line more dificult and that the fly/line hit the water behind me quite often. I estermate my casts to be around 100 ft , 20 ft more than Double hauling my single handed 10wt.
The main problem was the running line tanging in the guides on the forward shoot. I am getting a better basket with points to help with that.
I have ordered (2) 38 ft heads from Orvis and am lookuing for a discountinued 12wt clear intermidiate head from Wulff that Juro recomends and says that they can be still bought from old stock in Dealers. If any knows which dealer still has one I would appreciate getting their number.
As far as where to fish on Cranes Beach. I turn right on the beach and have fished all the way down to the Essex River mouth. It all depends on the tide. Most of the time I am fishing blind and/or different rips, and gullys /nervious bait I see fish but they have moved on before I get a fly to them.
09-13-2004, 12:04 PM
Thanks for your kind reply with info about Crane Beach.
Just to add a little more data about Atlantis lines I have attached my recent message to Juro.
Sorry I could not get back to you sooner..have been away from online access for most of this month (August).
Yes, I bought 3 of the $19 Orvis heads. As you say, they do cast well. This is what I have, and you are welcome to try them any time you want:
12 wt. 38 ft. floater 488 grains
12 wt. 38 ft. supersink 489 grains
14 wt. supersink
This line was supposed to be only 30 ft. according to the Orvis specs. because it's above 12 wt. However, the line I received is actually 38 ft. and weighs 622 grains. What I wanted was a short heavy head to make surf retrieving and cast set-up easier. So, I have cut this head back to 31 ft. and re-attached the rear loop. It casts well. This will be my primary surf line with these specs:
14 wt. supersink cut to 31 ft. 511 grains
02-16-2005, 11:19 AM
I have decided to shorten my 3 Airflo 12 wt x 45 ft shooting heads to 40 ft.
40 ft seems to be the maximum practical fishing length while wading. Also the 3 to ratio give a 120 ft cast
If I can comfortably and constantly cast 120 ft with a starter roll cast and 2 back casts I will be very happy. 120 ft or 40 yards is a very long cast with a lot of line in the basket, did I mention tangles.
I want to keep the end loops. Some have suggested taking the 5 ft out of the belly. I am not sure were the belly starts and ends with these heads.
The Airflo site only gives the specs for 30 ft heads.
For these lines it gives dimensions for the TIP, FRONT, BELLY, REAR parts of the head.
Is the extra 15 ft made up solely by adding 15 ft to the belly?
Do I need the dimensions to figure out were to make the cut?
The part numbers of the heads are
Fast Sink MH-EX-ST12S3-DB
Super Fast Sink MH-EX-ST12S7-BK
Heads weights 45ft 40ft
Intermediate 569 505 grams
Fast Sink 622 552
Super Fast Sink 638 567
Is the splice method out lined in the spey page the best way to go with Airflo lines.
Many thanks for your input