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Skagit River, Grandy Creek

11K views 63 replies 17 participants last post by  roballen2 
#1 · (Edited)
Last night there was a meeting in Sedro Woolley about Grandy Creek Rearing (sp) Ponds.
The Director of WDFW was there with top people (10) from Olympia and Skagit County.
A lot of the night was spent on Grandy Creek; the Director said it was going to be done.
EIS report would be open to public comment June 14th. There will be more on EIS in a press release coming out soon.
 
#2 ·
Brian,

I wanted to be at the meeting; unfortunately, my 7th grader had a science fair last evening and that took precedence. Thanks for mentioning the meeting.

Was there any mention of whether WDFW is still planning on using Grandy Creek only as a winter steelhead hatchery, or are they looking at using Grandy as a hatchery for other fish such as chinook?
 
#5 ·
The Introduction of Summer Steelhead was not affirmed.

Brian,

There was considerable discussion about summer run fish and some strongly advocated reintroducing them but my recollection is that the WDFW people only granted that if the idea was properly submitted then they would evaluate it.

There was some misconception among those present about the origins of the few wild summer steelhead in the Skagit in that some in the audience proposed that they were remnants of previous hatchery programs.

The SASSI reports that there are several native summer stocks although each is quite small and it is my thought that possible interactions with these native populations will prevent a new summer hatchery from happening.


With the proposed acclimation ponds use for imprinting winter steelhead to the Grandy Creek area there seems to be very strong opposition from many in the fly-fishing community and I am hoping that someone might discuss the disadvantages and possible advantages of building and operating the facility?

Anyone?
 
#6 ·
Plunk,

I am a fly fisherman who is not opposed to the Grandy Creek site for winter fish. This is because there is not much chance of spawning interaction between hatchery fish from there and the wild winter fish in the system. Summer fish is another matter though because of the possible interactions with the wild summer stocks from the stream upriver a few miles from Grandy Creek. The other wild summer fish (from the upstream Cascade and Sauk rivers, or downstream from Day Creek) would not be threatened by summer fish being put in at Grandy.

The only real concern I have about the Grandy facility is the possible huge increase in fisherman numbers in the area from Grandy to Hamilton. That is a something that I can easily avoid though by simply fishing furthur down or upriver from Grandy. I am equally sure that the number of guides working the river will increase quite a bit because of the ease of driving to the Grandy area from Bellingham and Everett and the boat launches just upstream and downstream of Grandy providing easy and convenient boat access to the arrea.

I have a strong suspician that when the Grandy facility comes on-line, the number of fishers in the Rockport to Marblemount area will decrease and that fisherman will concentrate near the Marblemount hatchery and the Grand hatchery.
 
#7 ·
Not to sound to dumb on this matter. With all the Steelhead hatcherys that are closing or that they want to close and with the Hatchery at Barnaby Slough. Why do they want to open another one on the Skagit. To me it doesn't makeany sense. But what the hell do I know,I'm just a grumpy old man.

Jim
 
#8 · (Edited)
Plunker
When the plan comes out it sounded to me that they where going to have summers in the future. With the three proposals they had. We will have to see what “PSE” does with the Baker River Dams. It hard to get all those people together in one spot and ask those questions. We only had WDFW there.


Jim
This is going to be Rearing ponds (raceways) not hatcheries. There already up and down the river.
 
#9 ·
I don't understand the word "Reining Ponds" or do you mean rearing ponds. Even if you do that doesn't that put an imprint into the fishes brain on where to return to. And could that little creek hold all them fish at full size.

Some day if we ever meet up on the river or someplace where the water is flowing down hill you can explain this to me.

Jim
 
#11 ·
So my issue with the site is that no one seems to know what the impact will be of the hatchery fish on the wild fish. My understanding is that Grandy creek has failed three other times in trying become a hatchery. So why don't we learn from the past? What is the success rate of the current skagit hatchery? It is very low so is this money well spent for something that no one seems to know the impact of. In fact the orginal ESA got the project shot down because it wasn't good enough to show no impacts on the wild fish.

JJ
 
#12 ·
Here is a little history on the Grandy creek failures of the past. It has only failed twice before not three times sorry.

Thus the choice of Grandy Creek, which has a long history of long ago failed hatcheries (the old foundations are still on the site). Around 1911 it was first constructed as a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Hatchery. However, the hatchery had increasing difficulties bringing back fish and had water source difficulties as well. It was subsequently abandoned by them in I believe the 1940s. But it was then purchased by Washington Department of Game as it was called at the time (must have been a realtor with a silver tongue to be able to sell a failing hatchery). WDG used it streictly as a steelhead hatchery until sometime in the 1960s or early 70s. They also abandoned it due to failing returns and water quality problems.

JJ
 
#13 ·
JJ,

From conversations I've had with Steve Stout, the manager of the Marblemount hatchery and Barnaby Slough raising ponds over the last 5 years, I have very few concerns about the impact of Grandy Creek hatchery fish on wild fish (remember this will be imprinting, raising ponds like those at Barnaby Slough with fish hatched at the Marblemount hatchery). The studies on hatchery/wild interaction in the Skagit/Sauk/Cascade rivers has found there is no interaction between the wild and hatchery stocks. The DNA studies in the Skagit system have shown there is a 0.01% probablity of interaction between the wild and hatchery fish. This is less than the genetic diversity found within either wild or hatchery fish.

Steve has also told me that the vast majority of wild fish spawning occurs above Concrete (much of it in the Sauk). Not that there is no spawning in the mainstem Skagit below Concrete, just that there is not a lot of it. Thus there is not a lot of chance for hatchery/wild spawing interaction. Addtionally, Grandy Creek has been a release site for hatchery steelhead for the last 10 years with approximately 40,000 smolt released into Grandy Creek at the hatchery location each year. This has been done for two reasons accordind to Steve. 1) to provide a way to evaluate the amount of wild-hatchery interaction in the middle Skagit; and 2) begin the establishment of a return to Grandy Creek for the future raising ponds.

Although it is true that the feds had a hatchery at Grandy Creek that was considered a failure, it was primarily for the raising of chinook and sockeye, both "high value" commercial fish. We must remember that the hatcheries of the early and mid 1900's were not very good at producing returning fish. It is also true that WDFW's forerunner purchased the feds Grandy Creek operation, which was abandoned after the construction of the new, larger hatchery at Marblemount. Marblemount had the advantage of water from a spring, which Grandy Creek does not have. The springs at Marblemount provide water temps that fluctuate very little throughout the year, unlike the freestone water in Grandy Creek, and this consistent temperature at the Marblemount hatchery is very conducive to incubating eggs and raising fry to smolts. This is also why Barnaby Slough is used for raising ponds instead of as a full hatchery.

In other words, the "water quality" issues that lead to the demise of the original Grandy Creek hatchery had little to do with it "purity" or polution and nearly everything to do with the freestone nature of Grandy Creek and its widely fluctuating water temps. This is why the hatchery was built at Marblemount, it has springs to provide nearly ideal water temps for egg incubation and fry growth.
 
#14 ·
A lot of info on the interaction of wild and hatchery fish after they return to the river. Does anyone have any information on the interaction of wild and hatchery fish while in the river before smolting or thier interactions after they leave the river while in the salt? Do hatchery fish and wild fish use the same feeding areas in the ocean? Do hatchery parr and wild parr compete for food in the river?
 
#16 ·
Kerry and Beau do bring up good points.

I am with JJ. The thing that worries me is the impact to returning wild fish. The interaction between the wild and hatchery smolts is minor in my mind compared to increased hooking mortality brought on by heavily increasing fishing pressure.

Right now the majority of pressure as I see it on the Skagit is up above Rockport towards the Cascade. Why? Cause that is where the hatchery is.

I think it is pretty much a fact that the majority of the nates caught in the Skagit is below the Sauk. If we put in a hatchery below the Sauk and make it into a Cowlitz north we immediately increase pressure on the early returning native fish heading to the Sauk and Upper Skagit.

People do try and use the excuse that hatchery and wild fish have different return cycles. However, if you talk to old timers they lament the decline in early returning natives on all of our western washington rivers. Me thinks this is partly due to increased hatchery output and the throngs they bring to the river.

Take a trip down to the Cow between June-July or November-December and ask yourself if that is what you want to see up on the Skagit.

I for one will miss the relative solitude one can have on the middle/lower skagit in late winter/early spring.

-sean
 
#17 ·
Sean,

IMHO you hit a bullseye on what many are concerned about with a hatchery at Grandy Creek: The relative solitude on the middle Skagit (I define the middle Skagit as the river between Sedro Woolley and Concrete) now present during the December-February time frame would be gone, at least in the Grandy Creek to Hamilton area.

Regarding the impact of people fishing for hatchery fish at a Grandy Creek hatchery on wild fish, it would be far less than the impact of the Indian fishery from furthur down river. Remember, nets don't disciminate between hatchery and wild fish, sportsfishers can. Wild fish release would keep the impacts on wild fish to a fairly low level, especially since most of the angler effort is going to be expended right near the hatchery.

I may be very wrong; but I don't see the Skagit becoming a Cowlitz north because the Sky, Snoqualmie, Stilly, and Nooksack are all closer to population centers and the guides now working them will probably not move to the Skagit because of the extra miles they would have to travel. Also, I don't see a huge influx of our friends from B.C. coming down to the Skagit since they have the Vedder and several other rivers much closer.

The Cowlitz has a huge number of folks from Olympia and Tacoma fishing it along with a large number of folks from Kelso/Longview. I don't think the Tacoma or Olympia folks will travel up here in any appreciable numbers, they will stay stay on the Cowlitz. The majority of the Seattle/Everett/Bellevue/Monroe/Marysville folks will continue to fish the Sky, Stilly, and Snoqualmie.

The effect of hatchery smolts on wild smolts during the downstream migration is the only real concern I have.
 
#19 ·
Flytyer.

So no concern with residualizing (SP?) straying and interbreeding? I am concerned about the competition while on the out bound migration too. But I also think straying and interbreeding is a concern too. I could be for this if we have good credible information that said that this wouldn't happen. I haven't seen any yet.

I am also concerned about how totally ineffective skagit hatcheries have been lately and is this where we want to put our money for a less then 1% survival rate. I believe the Cascade has been hurting to make its goals the last couple years what do we think this one will be any different.

JJ
 
#20 ·
The relative solitude of an angler on the river has no merit what so ever on whether the Grandy Creek facility should be built or not. Your selfishness is disturbing to me. The only arguments for or against this facility that have merit are those that directly concern the fish or the river itself. Angler pleasure should not enter the equation. This also includes any arguments that the facility will increase angler catch rates of hatchery fish unless it can be proven beyond any doubt there will be no adverse affects on the river and its native fish including incidental catch and mortality of native fish.
 
#21 ·
I think you missed my point entirely Kerry. I was trying to agree with you. Honestly, I will miss the lower pressure on this section of the river. I cannot help it, I am a fisherman after all. That really was not my point though.

My main point was/is increased pressure on wild stocks by turning the Skagit into a fishing derby type atmosphere. I have not seen enough data on wild/hatchery smolt interaction to really say anything on that point. I do know there will be a lot more natives hooked than in a long time on this section of the river when the hatchery goes into effect. 10 percent of these fish will die, especially at the hands of folks just looking for a meal. Safely releasing natives will not be at the top of their priority list. Sparky's rule ain't gonna help.

When it comes down to it if this goes in you can count on the pressure from this angler going down. I go to the Skagit to interact with native fish not hatchery drones. I can get that kind of action 20 miles from my house rather than traveling 120 to the skagit. I see this hatchery as being bad for the native fish and also robbing the mighty skagit of its charm as one of the last bastions of wild steelhead in our state.

I bet the state will sell a few more licenses though :)

-sean
 
G
#23 ·
Summer runs...

About 7 years ago I owned another piece of Marblemount property with Olson Creek flowing through it. Late that Spring I observed a large native hen building a redd in this "seasonal creek" with a far smaller hatchery buck in attendance.

Left me with two important lessons learned - 1.) Wild fish and hatchery fish DO mix it up, and 2.) Fish will stray.

...and the creek went bone-dry within three weeks. Mother nature doing her bit - gotta love the girl!

mmm
 
#24 ·
JJ,

All of the Puget sound rivers have had low returns of fish the last 5 years, wild fish included and the rivers in Oregon, California, and sourthwest Washington have had good returns. Only a few years ago the rivers of California had very bad returns of steelhead. Also, B.C. rivers have had poor returns of steelhead the last few years. Therefore, the low returns are a systemic problem spread over a very large area and probably due to ocean conditions or the salmon farms in the Straight of Georgia.

I didn't say anything about residualizing or straying. I said that according to the DNA studies Steve Stout the manager of the Marblemount Hatchery told me about, there was only a 0.01% probability of hatchery/wild interaction on the Skagit, Sauk, and Cascade rivers. I also said Steve told me there was not a lot of steelhead spawning happening below Concrete and that the majority of steelhead spawn in the Sauk.

I am aware of the wild steelhead returns to several of the creeks in the middle river. However, these are either miles downstream of Grandy Creek or some distance upstream of Grandy Creek. Presitin Creek in the closest one and it is around 2 miles upstream. Therefore, there seems to be little likelihood of wild/hatchery spawning interaction.

I've not caught a residualized steelhead (rainbows) in the Skagit system, nor have I met anyone who has. This doesn't mean they don't exist; but it does mean they are rare. I don't see a facility at Grandy Creek adding much if anything to the small number of residualized steelhead (rainbows) in the river.

There is no documented hatchery steelhead strays that I am aware of in Bacon Creek, Day Creek, Gilligan Creek, Presitin Creek, Jackman Creek, Swift Creek, Illabot Creek, Loretta Creek, or Finney Creek all of which have been extensively surveyed by the Skagit System Cooperative for the presence of wild and hatchery steelhead. Therefore, although straying is a possibility, it appears to be a very, very low possibility.

MMM,

Steelhead are able to spawn in a seasonal stream, have the eggs hatch, and the egg-sack fry survive by moving down to a larger body of water all in a 3 week time frame with the seasonal creek becoming dry almost at the moment the fry make it to the larger water. It is amazing what steelhead can do.
 
G
#25 ·
flytyer,

In this case, they didn't make it, the creek went dry too soon. The redd was at the downstream edge of a large "hole". The hole was, for the most part, the terminus of the creek until it, too, went dry (in other words, the creek flowed to the hole and vanished underground, save those times when storm runoff brought sufficient volume to connect the creek to the river). I was told by the Marblemount hatchery personnel that if I kept the area wet by hosing down, the eggs might make it until the next rainfall. Na!

mmm
 
#26 ·
Hmmmm

>>I've not caught a residualized steelhead (rainbows) in the Skagit system, nor have I met anyone who has.>>

I'm not sure what one would call the larger wild rainbows I've hooked in the Skagit in the fall. I would call them resident rainbows, or residual steelhead. I'm know there is a resident population, though they all seem to have adipose fins (so far).
 
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