Atlantis casting video [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Atlantis casting video

01-04-2004, 09:07 PM
Here are a couple of AVI movies from outside the Danbury CT Flyfishing University flyshow today. After a quick intro, Andrew from our new sponsor Tightlines Flyfishing tuned right in and was kind enough to cast so I could capture these short videos.

Here is a side-shot showing the stroke and line speed:

(avi file, 1.3 mb)

I apologize if you are interested and are a dial-up (vs. high-speed) internet user, but you will want to see the next video. There is a loading dock and an SUV parked in the ramp. We are about 150 ft away. The leader and yarn fly cleared the top of the vehicle and landed on the far side of the concrete wall on nearly every take.

Too bad we didn't have a longer running line! The end of the cast gets some drag noise.

These casts were made with a single backcast. In case you aren't convinced it's really over the vehicle, here's another that has less line speed but more loft distance. You can almost see the running line tighten as the leader clears the roof rack on the strip retrieve.

Thanks Andrew, for demoing the Atlantis 1111, more so for your sponsorship of the Forum and Speypages!

01-04-2004, 09:16 PM
You have to love the sound on those files.

01-04-2004, 09:43 PM

01-04-2004, 11:23 PM
One note on the second vid... the comment "a good one" that you hear afterward was from a European gentleman who was an exhibitor, one who I am certain was an excellent two-handed rod handler, not sure which booth/company. Seeing that we had a double-hander, and no doubt being an experienced "traditional" double-overhand caster from across the pond, he came over telling us what to do and what not to do assuming we would not have a clue. Understandably so, with this stuff being so new in the coastal fly-fisheries worldwide for the most part except for a growing number of pioneer anglers. Afterall, what could these east-coast bumpkins know about doublehanded casting? ;) I want to be clear, it was a generous gesture and he stood by to watch the cast to make sure. But the outcome was enlightening in a way.

Well, I don't really remember what this gentleman was actually telling us about how we were going to screw up the cast if we didn't do this or that... and then Drew let this rocket go.

Quieted, he commented "good one", said nothing more, and went back inside to re-join the show.

I felt a little like a torch had been passed, like the new generation of beach casting that I hope will emerge from this rod and others like it, a new-world discovery wave based on traditional themes. It's beauty is in a power unadorned nor encumbered with tradition for the sake of tradition; instead the most modern design and materials standing on the shoulders of a centuries old concept that two hands are (in many situations) better than one.

01-05-2004, 09:48 AM
...After the cast is complete and the running line is smartly paid out, should the rod be inadvertantly yanked from the hands due to the monumental inertial tug of the line and lost in the surf...would my home owners insurance policy cover such a loss?...or would this be considered an act of God and/or physics?

Thank you for your kind time and attention! laughing gulls (they are NOT laughing AT him, they are laughing WITH him)...
For the benefit of the uninitiated and those who don't already know...
Juro not only communicates with the phish...local birds frequently observe him to gain insight regarding foraging matters and current conditions!:whoa:

John Desjardins
01-05-2004, 10:06 AM
Juro, Impressive casts. One thing that strikes me from the side view is how similar the casting stroke is to firing off a lure on spinning gear.

01-05-2004, 10:52 AM
I wouldn't know :devil:

Seriously, since flyrods and doublehanded rods preceded spinning gear by at least a century, most likely more - I'd have to say it strikes me how similar spinning gear has become to it's predecessor, two-handed overhand fly casting!


Penguin -

I'd suggest taking that safety orange curly-cue off the ignition switch of your boat engine and using it as a "kill switch" from the end of the rod butt to your wading belt. :hehe:

01-05-2004, 01:07 PM
Just curious as I could not tell from the video. How much line is he slipping into the backcast??


Greg Pavlov
01-05-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by John Desjardins
Juro, Impressive casts. One thing that strikes me from the side view is how similar the casting stroke is to firing off a lure on spinning gear.
You noticed that too ? The distinction betw fly and spinning is getting kinda blurry.

01-05-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Greg Pavlov
You noticed that too ? The distinction betw fly and spinning is getting kinda blurry.

With the exception a lure propels a spinning cast and the fly line and rod is doing the work here....:rolleyes:

If you look closely even though he casts from down on the side the mechanics are close to a distance single hand fly cast. You have a good back cast , rod drift while shooting line into the backcast, and a good forward cast. He is just using 2 hands.

My money says less than 20% of the board members could throw the line 150' plus like in the video ( I sure cannot) while the majority could do it with a spinning rig.


01-05-2004, 06:43 PM
How much room is required to the angler's starboard side with the cast shown in the video?

01-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Juro -

It was a pleasure meeting with you this weekend. I had a great time. I loved the speys and the Atlantis rods were above my expectations. They were phenomenal in every aspect.

As for our discussion during the show, I would like to come on board as a sponsor of the spey pages and worldwide forum to not only benefit my business but to also offer help for the people who make this website possible. Being that I program my website I understand what it takes to create a website, especially one of this magnitude. Although I haven't participated much on the site yet, I have viewed a lot of the material and have found this website to be very informative and professional. There are a lot of nice people who visit this site, it's a good thing to see.

I would like to donate a Hardy Salmon Bougle MK IV to put up for auction. Let me know what I'll need to do in order to make this happen. You can send me an email or give me a buzz tomorrow. My phone is 973-244-5990 if you've lost it.

Sean -

I'd say I was putting about 4-8 feet into the backcast. To much and you lose control. One thing shooting line into your backcast does for you, even with a single hand, is it allows you to decide when the rod loads. As soon as you pinch the line it quickly straitens out and loads the rod. Then it's just a matter of coming forward in a strait plain with a smooth acceleration.


01-05-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Greg Pavlov
You noticed that too ? The distinction betw fly and spinning is getting kinda blurry.

I'm sorry Greg, but I don't understand. You make a comment but offer no explanation. Could you explain your position on this?

You see it is as obvious as the day is long to me that they are the EXACT OPPOSITE. I suppose a casual observer could arrive at that conclusion. But if the observer knew a thing or two about casting, they would know that they are diametrically different.

Let me explain:

One method casts an object by it's weight, optimally with a line that is as thin and non-existent as possible. In fact, the same cast can be easily done by hand, taking for instance 4 pound monofilament line wrapped around a budweiser can with a 2oz. bank sinker. I could "cast" that 200 ft easily with no real need for a rod but for convenience.

Summary of non-fly methods of casting:

- weight of object is critical to cast
- diameter of line is minimized and it's only essential purpose is to keep you attached to the object you are tossing.
- in non-fly casting the rod is non-essential, just convenient. You don't need it to cast, in fact you don't need it to retrieve and you don't need it to land a fish.

On the other hand casting without anything on the end cannot be so easily achieved. It relies entirely on the thickness and shape of the line, the rod's design is absolutely essential, and the object on the end is a detriment, as opposed to being the critical component of the act.

- weight of object is meaningless, in fact detrimental
- shape and weight of line is essential and needs no object on the end to work best
- the way the rod behaves is critical to a good cast

So in conclusion, where there are three critical components to casting, all three can be used to argue that fly casting is indeed the opposite of non-flycasting.

Imagine this scenario:

A spin caster and a two-handed caster using a shooting head system as we have here are fishing side by side, forgetting for a minute that you can use a finesse line on this rod and throw gentle spey loops if desired. Let's say they are both firing off rocket casts this day.

My grandmother would see no difference between the two, but my father (my fishing teacher and mentor) would likely say "isn't it amazing that the fly caster is able to fish in a similar manner with the spin caster despite using mechanically opposite methods?".

That is in fact the magic of two-handed rods. You can put a short spey head on and underhand cast on a quiet river with the same rod, but when the going gets tough on the beach you don't have to reach for the spinning rod because you can achieve similar feats under tough conditions when needed.

If you don't see that, well I'd have to say you've missed the point!

01-05-2004, 07:46 PM
Andrew -

It appears we were typing at the same time. Likewise I had a great time at Danbury, very friendly show.

We're all honored to have you guys on board, and that's a very generous auction item, thanks!

One of us will contact you to finalize the arrangements and Sean will put the item up for auction.

Hmm... a nice Bougle.... hmmmm..... :)

PS, maybe we could do an early bird down there in NJ or up on the Delaware for big trout in 2004!

01-05-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by jfbasser
How much room is required to the angler's starboard side with the cast shown in the video?

Hi JF,

Depends on the caster, but I hope "a good amount". If the caster comes too straight over the top it's very likely that the line will collide with the rod on the way over.

Clearly the shooting head technique Andrew uses here is very effective; his style is to come around low then up into the firing position. He uses a different stroke for his spey casting verses overhand I noticed, using the more traditional arm angles in that case.

I have a different stroke and the next guy might also. I end up with my upper arm from shoulder to elbow about horizontal (straight from shoulder to elbow) and my body angled back a little with opposite foot forward. My forearm from elbow to wrist is angling upward to the rod, about the same position as a regular single-handed cast except the lower hand is out in front of my rod shoulder stabilizing the butt until it's ready to pull the bottom of the rod inward toward the body.

This inward pull creates tremendous load in the blank and the IM8 material generates a lot of line speed while recovering very quickly. This makes it possible to transfer the energy into the cast with very little turbulence, maximizing the shooting distance. This inward pull replaces the haul.

01-05-2004, 10:43 PM
Thanks, the "underhand" motion is quite effective. I use it somewhat by "double handing" a single hander by resting the fighting butt in the palm of the left hand. Only when I get a bit tired of course:D

01-06-2004, 12:02 AM
Art Lee, in his excellent book "Fishing Dry Flies for Trout on Rivers and Streams" commented that DT lines are more towards the essence of fly fishing because the cast is made by motions that almost exclusively push the line towards the target. WF lines and their casts, in contrast, are dominated by casts that pull line to the target.

I'm not putting stock in value one way or the other, but I do think his attitude applies best to the task described in the title of his book. Dry flies and trout. Controlled casts and presentation.

Though I also think this "pulling" or shooting of fly line versus pushing line is perhaps what others on this thread mean when discussing a blurred line between spin and fly fishing - as if any such distinction matters one iota. Don't sweat it!

great video!

01-06-2004, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by loco_alto
Though I also think this "pulling" or shooting of fly line versus pushing line is perhaps what others on this thread mean when discussing a blurred line between spin and fly fishing - as if any such distinction matters one iota. Don't sweat it!

great video!

I don't see it. Push verses pull? Are you referring to upper hand verses lower hand? Are you pulling the fly line into the backcast with a double taper? Before the line gets pulled into the shoot, is is being pushed? So if I don't shoot any running line, am I not blurred, but when I shoot line I am blurred?

Romantic, eloquent, interesting - but not nearly a supportable argument. Don't get me wrong, I am all about the romance of flyfishing.

If not - I'd simply be using a spinning rod! :devil:

01-06-2004, 07:38 AM

Will we be able to try & order at Marlboro?

I think this is just the Valentine's day present my wife needs!


Dble Haul
01-06-2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Roop

I think this is just the Valentine's day present my wife needs!

Yeah, a nice new Atantis with your name on it. ;) :p

Great video clips and great discussion regarding the casting stroke. I feel like I'm partaking in a correspondence course of sorts....text, visual aids, and knowledgeable instructors.

More incentive to get to Marlboro!

John Desjardins
01-06-2004, 08:40 AM
Oh boy, what did my comment create.

Juro I'm sorry for the OTFF reference. The video made the impression on me that an experienced non fly fisherman could quickly be taught the mechanics of two handed casting by reference to something with which he has experience and be fishing. I didn't state that and I'm sorry for that. So are you going to have one at Marlboro ?

01-06-2004, 09:21 AM
John, et. al. -

You guys know me well enough not to take me too seriously - I might believe what I am saying 110% but I tend to spin it up a little for rhetoric, tongue in cheek, "effect" as they say.

Debate is very healthy provided we are focused on the real topic and don't degrade to irrelevant back-biting.

I actually enjoy the discussion, just as I enjoy fish that are the hardest to catch. In fact stronger arguments to the contrary would be more challenging. :devil: :hehe:

Thanks all for watching the clips, I promise the next set of clips will be of gentle spey casts landing softly over a wooded stream; same rod different line.

I will not however be thinking about Mr.Lee's musings the next time a raft of blueback herring is trapped beyond a hard surf and a wall of brawling 30 pound bass are pounding these foot long baitfish with such force as if they're trying to drown the sound of the breakers and howling cross wind out with their busting spray.

Instead my hair will stand on end and I will get goosebumps as I run down the beach, heart pounding, with adrenalin rushing through my veins like a wild animal and join into the carnage, hunting the hunter armed with a fly rod suited to the task.

01-06-2004, 12:42 PM
Never handled a 2 hander. Read where caster on video slipped 4-8 ft into cast - but how much overhang did he have before backcast? What does a caster do with a breeze on his rod side? Can you still fish a steep beach behind you? Are there some lines that lend themselves better to this type of cast? Can one still use 120' "regular" intermediate fly lines i/o tips?
Can you still retreive the fly to your feet?
A little unclear re discussion regarding wt of lines for this rod - for instance I have a 12wt SA inter that I use on a 12wt GLX. Will this line work on the Atlantis1111?

Dble Haul
01-06-2004, 01:02 PM

Rather than rehash what has already been very well stated and discussed in other threads, I will direct you to the Stripers and Coastal Gamefish forum here in Flytalk. In that forum, you can do a text search for Atlantis and have several relevant threads to get info from. In fact, there's a thread on the current page of that forum titled "Lines for the Atlantis" that has over three pages of discussion. You may be able to find many answers to your questions there.

Searches here on the Worldwide forum may bring up similar results and I'm sure that some others may answer you directly, but these threads should be a good starter.

01-06-2004, 03:37 PM
Drew - Welcome! Glad to see that you guys have picked up CND; I'll have to try one out next time I stop in at the shop. I'll bring along that 10' 5-wt. I was talking about, let you have a look at it.

For any of our members in the North Jersey/NYC area, Tightlines is a great shop, with quite a selection of tackle and tying supplies.

Greg Pavlov
01-06-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by juro
I'm sorry Greg, but I don't understand. You make a comment but offer no explanation. Could you explain your position on this?
These two-handed rods substantially increase the amount of water one can cover, both in distance and depth, and perhaps range of water conditions, and while still nowhere near what one can address with a spinning rod, in many more situations the differences are now moot. These rods also make it much easier for the average fisherman to cast larger flies, including those whose design is not dictated to a large extent by the need to minimize air resistance. So the "typical" differentiation of f'fman with his 2/0 Clouser and spin fisherman with his jointed Rebel may start to disappear, at least in terms of size of what is presented. And finally, in theory one should be able to cast considerably heavier flies effectively, if one so chooses.

The difference of real interest between the two is not that they load rod blanks differently, but the primary outcome of this difference: the characteristics of the flies/lures that are cast with them. To me, flies have much more potential than lures, but constraints in size and, in some cases, sink rates, negate the advantages in many cases. The two-handed rods expand the range of flies and characteristics of flies that can be cast by the typical mortal. And, among other things, this in theory allows for the design of additional flies that work, in some respects, like certain lures (such as the clouser being a fly version of the jig) if that is what one wishes to try.

01-06-2004, 07:50 PM
Greg -

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

01-07-2004, 09:36 AM
Chris -

Thank you for the kind words. Bring the 5 weight in, I'd love to check it out. I was very impressed with the CND rods and I feel they will be a great addition to not only the shop, but my own arsenal. Let me know when you're coming, I'll make sure I'm here.

Juro -

Any kind of fishing sounds good right about now. As long as it's not through the ice! Big trout on the delaware is always a lot of fun. You'll have to make sure you come down for a couple of days ideally around the last week of May first week of June (I know it's Monomoy time for you, but you'll have to make an exception).

I already got on the horn with Airflow and I have a lot of different lines coming for the Atlantis rods. I ordered 35' 12 weight heads in floating, intermediate, DI-3, and DI-7. I also ordered some strait WF 12 weight intermediates and 120' braided running lines in hot pink. For anyone who'll be at the Somerset Show, I'll have a good number of Atlantis rods and at least one demo to try.


01-07-2004, 09:39 AM
Hi Andrew-
Welcome, and thanks for the sponsorship of this great board!
Enjoyed our conversations about GL steelies, and Newfoundland salmon fishing, hope to catch you on the river one day.

Folks, Andrew is the real deal! I look forward to visiting Tightlines Flyshop next trip down NY way. Save me an Atlantis!

macspey aka john

01-07-2004, 11:09 AM
John -

The sponsorship is my pleasure. Someone will get you enjoy a great reel in the Hardy Bougle. A great spey reel all the way.

Yes, we had a great conversation! I got a chance to talk with Mike Crosby. He seems like a great guy. I will probably put something together for the Pinware (Chute Pool) in 2005. I was going to do something this year, but I had more guys that wanted to go to Newfoundland, so I contacted George from Dhoon Lodge and put another week together for August 14-21. Hopefully we can score some good weather and some male Atlantics that come in that time of year on the Harry's. George also said he could get us on the lower Humber, so sounds like it will be great.

I don't know if you guys know each other, but Juro wants to come down to fish the delaware. Maybe the two of you could hook up and I'll float you guys for a day. Just a thought?


01-07-2004, 02:26 PM
"I don't know if you guys know each other, but Juro wants to come down to fish the delaware. Maybe the two of you could hook up and I'll float you guys for a day. Just a thought?

Great, Andrew- sounds like a plan. Yes, I met Juro at a fine spey mini-clave he put together on the Merrimac/ Pemi last year. As you surely know, you won't have to drift very close to the fish for Juro to reach 'em!


macspey aka john

01-07-2004, 02:31 PM
Spin fishing, fly fishing, whatever -- that's a hell of a cast!

What was the particular line set up? Looked like a head and sounded like braided mono.

01-07-2004, 06:29 PM
When you stripe strike a BIG PHISH and your hands are water logged...sawing a deep wound is SO VERY EASY!
The salt water burns...
Failure to properly clear the outgoing line can yield a giant spagetti knot that will firmly seat itself in the first guide...
...and then, if you're lucky...
You see the sharks before they see you as they make their way up the blood slick...

...but the tug/boink at the end of the cast makes it all worth while!

01-08-2004, 09:27 PM
Juro -

I've had a couple of people either email or call me about the difference in casting a single hand from the Atlantis double hand. How about putting something together for the spring down here near Sandy Hook?, where people who have purchased Atlantis rods can learn some techniques and people who have yet to use one could give them a try. This would be a good opportunity to meet some different anglers as well. What are your thoughts? Anyone interested?


01-08-2004, 10:07 PM
Hmmm... a shot at the fish before the rest of the guys? Thanks that's a tempting invitation.

Each week that is not too bitter cold to get outside involves more testing, and this reveals more options for lines like that shooting head in the video. By spring we ought to have gone through quite an array of lines and I should be able to speak more clearly about line options from favorite manufacturers for spey lines and overhand lines alike.

For the Atlantis, many manufacturer's lines in the grain range are perfectly suitable for effortless 80-100' plus casts, but it's those special lines that produce half again that distance with ease that we want completely documented.

A Sandy Hook Two-hander Clave would be fun!

01-09-2004, 12:24 PM

Here's the reply that you requested offline. If it generates more interest in your Atlantis rods, all the better.

I think its pretty clear that flyline can reach its target by either "push" forces on the line, or "pull" forces on the line - or more typically both. At some level all casts are push casts at their origin, as the angler is pushing the line (using the rod) away towards a target.

But my point was not about the role of the angler in the cast (because this is the same is spin and fly fishing - the angler supplies the force), Rather, my point was about how line dynamics deliver the fly to the target.

This can be explained in terms of line design. Triangle Taper and the XLT long belly spey lines exemplify the "push" design, whereby heavier line is continually "pushing" or turning over lighter line in order for the fly to reach the target.

Shooting heads exemplify the "pull" design in fly fishing, whereby heavier line is pushed for a short time, but the delivery of the fly past the head (usually 30'-40') is accomplished by the heavy shooting head "pulling" a running line towards the target. The weighted head pulls a thin running line much like a lure pulls spinning line. As you know, many shooting lines are made of monofilament because it works so well for this kind of casting.

And naturally you can shoot an XLT or triangle taper for more distance. You can also make a 30' "push" cast with a shooting head, where the head is not pulling out any running line. But its not a matter of one or the other, and most fishing casts in big game environments necessitate both forces acting on the line.

However, for control and presentation in dry fly fishing for trout - remember now that my post was talking about dry fly fishing for trout - its the push cast the provides the most control and presentation.

Last time around you dismissed these straightforward ideas outright, without any explanation of your own, and did so again offline. Now that is hardly a supportable position. I'm just making a simple observation about line dynamics, that's all. If my likening shooting line to spin fishing ruffles your feathers, then I'm sorry, but consider that there might be a reason why shooting line is often called "launching."

Time to go put some braided loops on my new saltwater running line, and build some more LC-13 heads. Its more productive than semantics, that's for sure.

01-09-2004, 01:33 PM
Thanks for the detailed reply. I suspect this is getting old to the observer so I will limit this debate to this last post unless called upon to reply further.

1) Again, I simply questioned the logic of pulling and pushing being any sort of differentiation between spin and fly or fly and fly per your original statement, which I thought I made clear (verbatim)...

Originally posted by juro I don't see it. Push verses pull? Are you referring to upper hand verses lower hand? Are you pulling the fly line into the backcast with a double taper? Before the line gets pulled into the shoot, is is being pushed?

We are all entitled to an opinion and IMHO shooting line is just part of fly casting and does not categorize it one way or the other.

2) Although we started out in a spin vs. fly discussion, you've now re-stated that "push" offers more line control and presentation when trout fishing. This may indeed be a true statement, unfortunately that was never the topic being discussed. We are (and always have been) talking about gnarly surf conditions with big lines, big flies and big nasty gamefish - and the line control and presentation is driven by a whole different set of criteria.

If you can't cast in these conditions, you have no control. If you can't overcome the wind, surf, fly size and battle these toothy saltwater warriors, you have no presentation. I totally agree that a finesse presentation is good for trout, and there's a possibility that shooting or not shooting has something to do with it, but what I fail to see is the relevence of the point in this discussion.

I hope I was clear and did not "dismiss" anything.

01-14-2004, 09:43 AM
One of the first things they taught us (at the MIT Ocean Eng. dept) is that you can't push on a rope.
This 'pushing' on a fly line must mean something other than the classical interpretation of 'pushing' in mechanics classes, and I'd much appreciate being enlightened about the difference.

01-14-2004, 09:02 PM
I, too, must admit that I was a bit unclear on the pushing of line; I believe that it's more accurate to say that the pushing occurs on the fore-grip of the rod (during the forward casting motion), which in turn causes the rod tip to move forward, pulling on the line. In the case of a two-handed rod, the pushing is on the aft-grip during the back cast, yet this again results in motion of the rod tip, pulling the line into the path that the rod tip follows. The line itself isn't pushed per se, so far as it seems.
What does it really matter? When you cast a lure using conventional tackle, the load is placed on the rod by the mass of the lure; in the case of fly tackle, it's the line's mass that places the load on the rod. In either case, the line isn't being pushed, though the tip of the rod is.

01-14-2004, 09:19 PM
heavier stuff "turns over" lighter stuff, or at least that's what I've always been told.

Consider a tapered leader. The tippet has virtually no energy whatsoever because mass is low. However, it gets out there because a heavier line and butt section are behind it, making it all happen.

Now I suppose that you could say that the butt section "pulls" the tippet over, but with such subtleties of line physics, I think someone like Bruce Richards would be more apt to have the real answer

01-14-2004, 09:44 PM
In reality, it's all transfer of energy; butt to tip, tip to line, line to leader.

01-14-2004, 11:16 PM
yes yes, energy transfer, but I'm not so sure that a shooting head transfers energy to a running line in any manner resembling the way a fly line transfers energy to a leader.

Despite possibly all appearances my point is not to be a difficult ass, but instead to get a sense of the physics that makes different fly casts work. I'm the curious analytical type, even though the mindless drone of the swing and step appeals to me like no other.

01-15-2004, 05:49 AM
Steve -

I agree with the hypnotic cadence of the swing and step, especially when fishing alone. The mind wanders to the ends of the universe as every sound, smell and glimmer of the river fills the senses. Lift - sweep, and glide it out again. Mend.

Boy with this insance arctic blast we're getting out here east of the divide, such thoughts like a shirt-sleeved summer steelhead afternoon help me to keep the faith!

Well, gotta go chip my way into the truck soon. Boy does she ever groan when I turn the key on mornings like this.

Hope everyone is staying warm and safe out there.