Lines for the Atlantis [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Lines for the Atlantis


peter-s-c
12-06-2003, 02:03 PM
I believe you had the TT 11/12 wt. Tarpon line on the Atlantis when I tried it in October. I've never been a big fan of TT lines and, based on some suggestions here, I'm going with the Airflo intermediate. But?? 11 wt. or 12 wt.? As there isn't a body of knowledge out there already on the rod, I don't want to be the one buying all sorts of lines to do the knowledge accumulation. :eyecrazy:

Also, if I go the shooting head route, what's the best grain weight overhead and also for underhand?

juro
12-06-2003, 03:43 PM
Hi Peter -

I am placing an order for AIRFLO lines so will be able to comment more after testing. So far I have tested the 44' shooting head in high-density sinking (12wt rated no idea what the grains are) and it's a rocket. Sinks second only to the LC-13, amazing how fast it gets down. With a braided running line or any of the monofilament shooting lines, it's going 150ft. With a "real" shooting line you will get 125-135 ft with practice.

Dennis Worley of Kaufmanns' Streamborn (as seen in postcard) was using the Airflo floating shooting head in a 12wt , which led him to ask the question re: trevally poppers... "how many pops can you get in a 150ft cast?" (answer: a LOT) I would recommend that for a floating application.

Of course you need a PhD in line mgmt to handle all that running line, even with a stripping basket. Sticking to 120ft casts or shorter makes more sense while fishing IMHO. A fly's swim time at 120ft is still a LOT as well.

Conclusion: Airflo's 12wt rating works on the Atlantis 1111, shooting heads in sinking and floating field tested.

I really like the Wulff Saltwater Triangle Taper for this type of casting (beach casting) because it behaves so well even when going long. The head is only 30', overall line 105' plus a 12' leader and the backing that will fly out into the stripping guides makes for a comfortable 120ft. The loop form stays clean as it flies through the air and then the drag chirps when the backing gets pulled thru the strip guide. I like that.

For beach fishing short heads are the rule: after strip-teasing the fish to the shore you can flip it right out again for it's big brother. It helps you get over the rejection. ;) The T/T intermediate tarpon line has been so good for me it's stalled my experimentation with other lines.

BTW - folks should be careful to avoid confusing this rod's 11/12wt AFTMA style rating with a spey 11wt line. In fact AFTMA 11wt lines are only as heavy as many 7wt or even 6wt spey lines!

Atlantis covers it's rating well for 11wt and 12wt AFTMA lines common in tarpon and other saltwater applications... but please don't try an 11wt SPEY line on this rod. Tells ya just how "unique" the spey line rating system is! Yet a 7/8 spey line does in fact "feel" like a 7/8 to me, perhaps it's conditioning or maybe the distribution of those grains over a longer length... but I digress.

Anyway the Atlantis 1111 is NOT a spey rod. It's designed to throw shorter denser lines overhand. I have not tried my spey lines on it, but plan to run through my spey lines with it - but again it's not a spey rod. Curiosity's got me though and it would be funny if it worked as a spey rod with some lines! :p

If so it would be pure coincidence, the rod has no intent to be a spey rod in it's concept, design nor manufacture. It's just a flyrod for the beach angler that will take him/her to the next level.

I will end with this question... if a spey 7wt line is a single-handed 12-13wt line in grains, then what would a 9wt AFTMA line be in spey? Probably about a 3-4wt spey!

YET 9wt rods are the most commonly used on the coast. That would be a 3-4wt spey rod or so I would guess. You can see why coastal flyfishers need a tool that takes them to the next level out there, and the fish can be gnarly and large.

Therein lies the need that drove Atlantis.

If it has application elsewhere, GREAT!

peter-s-c
12-07-2003, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by juro
Hi Peter -

I am placing an order from Tim Rajeff so will be able to comment more after testing Airflo lines on it. So far I have tested the 44' shooting head in high-density sinking (12wt rated no idea what the grains are) and it's a rocket. Sinks second only to the LC-13, amazing how fast it gets down. With a braided running line or any of the monofilament shooting lines, it's going 150ft. With a "real" shooting line you will get 125-135 ft with practice.

I have two Airflo 12 wt. 45' Expert heads, a Type 3 and the Type 6. According to the kitchen scale and the conversion, they're about 575 and 600 grains respectively.

I really like the Wulff Saltwater Triangle Taper for this type of casting (beach casting) because it behaves so well even when going long. The head is only 30', overall line 105' plus a 12' leader and the backing that will fly out into the stripping guides makes for a comfortable 120ft. The loop form stays clean as it flies through the air and then the drag chirps when the backing gets pulled thru the strip guide. I like that.

I had a lot of trouble with that line in October even though I did a backing knot/drag chirper with it. Probably because I had no idea where the head ended and I tried to aerialize too much line.

For beach fishing short heads are the rule: after strip-teasing the fish to the shore you can flip it right out again for it's big brother. It helps you get over the rejection. ;) The T/T intermediate tarpon line has been so good for me it's stalled my experimentation with other lines.

Well, what are you waiting for - get testing. :devil:

BTW - folks should be careful to avoid confusing this rod's 11/12wt AFTMA style rating with a spey 11wt line. In fact AFTMA 11wt lines are only as heavy as many 7wt or even 6wt spey lines!

Oh, I'm very well aware of this, especially after living through the same problem with the Daiwa 11 wt. I have no intention of putting regular spey lines on it, however, I'm hoping it'll handle shooting heads underhand as well. I want to try and establish its ideal grain weight then build a set of heads around that. My currrent 11 wt. overhead casts and spey casts the same grain weight -- that doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's a fact. It too was designed as an overhead rather than as a spey rod.

I spey cast all of my trout single handers and there's no doubt that some do a better job than others. It establishes that good overhead rods can be good spey casters provided the tip isn't too wimpy. The best ones seem to the fast, progressive ones -- a description that fits the Atlantis, IIRC.

As I do not get too many chances to fish stripers in a year, I want to find as many applications as possible for the rod. I have a hunch that it will prove to be a good shooting head rod for the GLs as well. BTW, I guess a standard WF-11-I isn't going to cut it.

2HandTheSalt
12-07-2003, 08:43 AM
After only having cast Juro's rod for a few minutes, I have a suspicion that it might work pretty well with some portion of Rio's new scandinavian head in maybe an 8/9. This head's full weight is 580 grains, compared to a 30' 12-weight, ( Around 380.) If the full 580 works with the spey/underhand style, you can overhead cast it with maybe something like 8' of the head inside the rod tip.

Matched to a SlikShooter or Rio intermediate running line, you could do a lot of neat stuff with a setup like this.

Experimentation may show that you want to take a few feet off the back of the head, of course. That is the first thing I would try with it.

I think there is a whole slew of ways to work these two-handers in the salt that have not even been thought of yet. We are really at the bottom of the learning curve still.

juro
12-07-2003, 09:27 AM
Thanks for the clarifications, I think I see where you're coming from.

Yes, the lack of a color change is a real missed opportunity for most line makers out there. Rio is really on top of that and although T/T did it for the floating lines of the series the clear and semi-clear intermediate lines remain one color. I know what you mean, it's a shooting head in disguise and there isn't much of a margin for error.

Nick Wilder of Hunters gave me a good suggestion the other day on how to mark a clear line. Magic markers don't work on them. He suggested taking some flourescent backing and threading it onto the running line, sliding it up to the desired spot and coating it with a thin layer of aquaseal or other flexible durable adhesive. I'm going to try it.

The hope was for the rod to provide a new tool for coastal applications around the world (stripers, trevally, roosterfish, NW ocean salmon, inshore tunas, yellowtail, jacks, permit, etc) yet to your point I'm sure it will have great freshwater applications especially in a gamefish-rich region like the Great Lakes.

In fact I'd like to get it into the hands of pioneering flyanglers who are exploring GL surf for staging salmonids to reach the next level, and as you do I also believe there is an underhand spey angle to be found yet with the right line for rivers.

Per freshwater gamefish, I've received emails asking if it would be appropriate for exotic African species - not sure how to answer that question, having seen some of those fish on National Geographic :eyecrazy:

A production Atlantis 1111 is leaving in the hands of a friend down to South America for a peacock bass expedition tomorrow afternoon.... without me unfortunately. These are the big ones and should be a good test.

I see it as an excellent pike & muskie flyrod because it will throw those big flies much easier and handle fish of that size as well.

I am very interested in hearing about your adventures!

juro
12-07-2003, 09:36 AM
Jay -

We must have been typing at the same time! It's good to have collaborators in this realitively new arena. Your study of two-handed saltwater applications has been impressive and your articles have opened a lot of eyes to the possibilities I'm sure.

I would run out and determine the spey possibilities rather than give excuses but....

2HandTheSalt
12-08-2003, 01:55 AM
" I would run out and determine the spey possibilities rather than give excuses but...."

Wimp!

I am just in from Highbank. A little brisk out there, and what gigantic tides this weekend. I think if I had stayed a little longer I could have spey cast in the parking lot.

Smolt
12-08-2003, 12:39 PM
From everything you all have posted about the Atlantis 1111, it sounds like it would be a good rod to test the inshore flyfishing possibilities on the big island of Hawaii, where everyone seems to think the fishing is poor.

After hearing all the negative reports about the fishing, I did not bring a rod when I visited there last week. I may have missed an interesting opportunity because the water I saw looked too good not to hold fish.

I stayed on the western shore of the island, about 15 miles south of Kona. For five of the seven days of my visit, there was virtually no wind. My room was literally no more than 40 feet from the water which was, in my estimation, 10 to 20 feet deep.

I could see submergerd rock formations from 50 to 80 feet out from shore. Casts in that range sound like they would have been a piece of cake for the 1111. The water was definitely deeper 100 feet out. I wonder what a well placed Clouser would have dredged up? The fact is, however, that if one were to hook a fish from were I would have been casting, getting down to the water to release it would have been an interesting challenge.

BTW, I don't recommend that anyone go to Hawaii. You might never come back.

CK

juro
12-11-2003, 08:37 AM
Observation on the preferred grains for the Atlantis which applies to all rods/lines but I thought I would post it here to avoid any misconceptions from my previous posts. The grains this rod (and any rod) can carry effectively increases with the length of the line and perhaps more importantly the taper from body to tip and ranges comfortably from 450 grains to well over 600 grains depending on the length of the head and taper.

Specifically, I've tested 26', 28', 30', 44' heads on it. The 26' 450 grain feels quite substantial yet the 44' 630 grain feels quite comfortable.

For instance the Rio Scandinavian 8/9 casts beautifully on the rod and is 580 grains uncut at 44'. I've yet to explore the underhand spey potentials due to a general lack of liquid water around these parts lately but it overhand casts great. I am going to cut back the 10/11 to see what the top end match with a shorter head will be, since the practical application of this rod requires aggresive strip retrieving and the closer to the leader you can move the fly the more fish you could potentially hook. I will be exploring the underhand spey possibilities this weekend even if I have to plow my way to the water ;)

I just found out that the 12wt type 7 shooting head from Airflo I have been testing (which makes for an easy 130+ft cast with a store-bought running line, further with braided or mono shooting lines) weighs over 600 grains and is not too much for the rod at all. This is the expert model is over 40' long - so again the extended length helps the extra grains as it does in spey lines. I've since ordered other airflo shooting heads for exploring the 28' lengths which were designed w/ striper fishermen in mind by Tim Rajeff.

For more compact head lengths than the 40+ heads like the standard 30' Wulff tarpon lines, 438 grains takes the whole line out with relative ease and the factory running line manages well in a stripping basket in moderate temperatures. I will experiment with their cold water lines soon but their intermediate tarpon lines rock.

I hope to spend some time with a Skagit line this weekend, which I suspect will handle very nicely on this rod.

In summary, for overhand casting the comfortable range for the Atlantis 1111 ranges from 438 to almost 650 grains with the top end being over a longer length head and taper and the low end compacted into a short head. I am confident that this will extend into higher grain weights for 50-65 foot spey heads, etc.

Keeping in mind the most important thing, the fishing, the shorter heads will suit more coastal flyfishing applications due to retrieve methods, quickfire casting, and ability to carry bigger more wind-resistant flies.

That being said it's possible that the skagit/underhand casting potential will be more on the 580-700 grain end of the spectrum based on head length and taper.

I will post what I learn this weekend.

Jazzman
12-13-2003, 09:57 AM
All very interesting, especially to a guy who's never even tried a two-hander more than for a few minutes. Question for Juro -- I like to use floaters in the salt, especially for the quick pickup and line handling/mending capabilities. Have you tried any one piece floating lines with the Atlantis? I've never been a big fan of shooting heads, although I suppose one of Rio's Scandinavian heads plus a reasonably thick fly-line type shooting line might feel enough like your typical saltwater taper. Thanks -- these ideas sound really exciting.

juro
12-13-2003, 11:50 AM
Welcome jazzman -

As you say, the very accomodating behavior of floating line makes them much easier to work with for sure... my problem is I use big poppers on floating lines which kind of balances things out a little :)

For factory lines I really like the Bermuda Triangle 12wt Wulff lines in the 105' factory length. I've had great luck with the intermediate but the floaters I've ordered haven't arrived yet. Not like I would be able to run out and test them right now (snow/ice) but I am hoping to play with them before the winter shows start.

The floating BT wulff comes with a color change at the back of the head, major plus. The intermediate does not - but it is very stealthy albeit not clear (semi-clear).

I had an aversion to loop connections in striper country from my initial trials (1995ish) with sink tips /looped. They'd clunk into the guides then when a following fish hit they'd clunk back out. Then as the fish neared, they'd clunk in and out until the fish was subdued.

After further experimentation urged by the general lack of big lines with compact overhand heads in the market today and the need to make my own. I am starting to warm up to loop connections in strip-retrieve fisheries, by necessity.

It's just a matter of the quality and durability of the loop. With overhand casting hinging is not nearly the problem that it is in spey casting, so durability games can be played and won.

Another critical factor is the stripping basket - they just don't run big enough to match the amount of line that can be cast with the two-handed rod overhand.

Lots of discovery left to be made, the next few seasons should be very interesting in this direction.

Jazzman
12-13-2003, 04:05 PM
I bet you some of the Rio Clouser or Lumalux floaters in a 12 (actually they're slightly heavier than AFTMA regs.) would work well. They have a medium length, heavy head, and the finish on the Lumalux floater is really slick. Some of the Rio guys, whom I fish with on occasion, told me that, for whatever reason, the glow in the dark materials actually coincidentally make for a very slick-shooting finish. I love the thought of launching a popper a long way. Very curious to check out your rod design. I also like the idea of mending line easily in inlets, etc. I like swinging flies in current.

By the way, Juro, I think we may fish a lot of the same water. Although I live in NYC, my mother in law lives in Yarmouthport, and every summer/fall, I fish Chapin, Barnstable Harbor, Corporation, Sesuit/Harbor View, etc. Maybe we'll run into eachother one of these days. Last summer (02) was great for me, but this summer was abysmal!!! Till next year!!

juro
12-13-2003, 04:24 PM
Yes those are home waters to me but since I started guiding in earnest I've focused on the soundside waters due to the tide differentials on that side (roughly half the flood level). I still love and fish the bayside and know it very well, albeit not with clients with few exceptions when the tides are just right.

This community is known for big cape cod gatherings not to mention north shore, rhody, etc. I am sure we will hookup this summer, can't wait in fact - this weather is for the birds. No I take that back they flew south.

Peter - see my post on the spey casting testing I did today.

GregD
12-25-2003, 02:20 PM
With very little persusion required I was fortunate enough to get Juro to meet with me in the rain at a local football field for a casting lesson with my new Atlantis Christmas Eve. Santa was good to me this year ;). I found the Wulff 12wt Bermuda to be quite forgiving of my many mistakes and found I consistantly cast to the 30 yard line, with a decent cast going to the 40 yard line easily. It wasn't as critical to have the exact amount of running line out from the tip to the head as it was with the LC13/running line combo. I too experienced difficulties with the LC13 shooting head set-up that Peter described. My problems seemed primarily due to having too much running line out and poor timing and 2 hand technique on my part. But watching Juro consistantly shoot line out to the 40 or 50 yard mark showed it's potential quite clearly. I just have alot of practicing to do to fix my techniques and timing. I will try marking the appropriate sweet spot near the head for reference as suggested above, that should help me alot.

I'll be at the football field this afternoon trying it out with my 11wt SA tarpon and striper lines just for fun to see how well they work by comparision and to get some more practice. Hats off to CND Spey on a first class rod, the measurement markers on the blank were a nice touch, awesome handle cork and overall design. Sweet rod the Atlantis is...

I can't get over how long it takes to strip in a 120 foot cast... Awesome!

Tight Lines,
Greg.

juro
12-25-2003, 02:58 PM
Greg,

The pleasure was all mine! That long strip time has translated to very high percentages of fly-in-the-water time to quick distance casts for me during field testing, up to 10:1 in fact (a cast takes 3 seconds and a 120' twitch retrieve takes 30). The net effect of this is more fish on the line for a beach-roving fish like the striped bass especially during tide changes.

As you know the LC-13 is just a flirtation with the possibilities. next I am going to start experimenting with:

a) Rio T-14 at lengths of slightly greater grains, based on my experimentation with the 44' Airflo heads I believe the grain capacity of the rod is higher than initially suspected

b) hybrid head systems like those I built in steelhead country but with intermediate bellies of high mass / diam tapering down into clear and high-density forward tapers. If loops are a pain I will blind splice them.

As well as continuing my testing of off-the-shelf saltwater tarpon style lines from Rio, Airflo, etc.

It's good to have a collaborator nearby. As I mentioned, I am working on an Atlantis "users group" concept where people share what they have tried out for better or worse as we enter into the next season of coastal angling.

A season of discovery is ahead!

GregD
12-25-2003, 03:20 PM
Hi Juro,

Yea the 10:1 fishing time is a beautiful thing, I couldn't believe how fast the line shot to the 40 yard line with a single backcast. I'm sure we will dial in on the right line combos iin just a season probably trying different combinations it will be refined and tuned by years end. Especially with a groups input and testing.towards that end. I know I can't wait to try out some things.

I really got a hoot out of the snake roll cast and the leader check. You can bet I won't be trying the snake roll with a fly on for quite awhile. :eyecrazy:


Thanks again ,
Greg.

GregD
12-25-2003, 05:51 PM
Well I only had time to try out the 11wt SA Tarpon taper floating line I have. It certainly didn't load the rod as well as the Wulff 12wt bermuda, But casts further than I can throw it with my 9/10wt's that';s for sure. I 'm sure you could comfortably throw a 13 wt with this rod. It was fun to get out and try it with an 11wt tarpon taper and practice some 2 hand casting anyway.

Greg.

juro
12-25-2003, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the report Greg,

I think some 13wt floaters or intermediates (depending on brand) could be cast comfortably on the rod but as some 12wt shooting heads exceed 600 grains certainly not all brands.

Even the 11wt lines on the lighter side cast well for me but it took a shooting false cast to hit the backing knot where a fully loading line (12wt for instance) only took a single backcast.

Sometimes a finesse line is more important than a distance line, at which times a longer belly (44', short for spey / long for overhand) like the Hardy Mach I 9/10 intermediate would be a sweet spey / overhand line COMBO option that this rod seems to really like for precision work (verses distance and big flies).

Lots of lines to try!

Jazzman
12-25-2003, 09:22 PM
Are you guys doing your "product testing" on the Cape? I happen to be here for the holidays (Yarmouthport, specifically) with the in-laws and would love to give this thing a try. If not, perhaps in Somerset?

Happy holidays to all.

Jonny

juro
12-25-2003, 10:03 PM
Sounds like a plan Jazzman - yes, the product has been tested on the Cape thru the 2003 season and will be more this coming year.

The rods will be at Somerset (Marlboro, Wilmington, etc). I will post details as the time nears.

Thanks for your interest!

hardyperfect
12-26-2003, 02:52 PM
hi ya ll

rooster
12-29-2003, 01:19 PM
I noticed that RIO was still making a 30' shooting head in type 3 and 6 for a 12 wt. Hunters Angling was carrying them. Does anyone have experience with this head, it should cast on those rods. Also, any comments on decent running lines that don't kink in cooler water?
Rooster

2HandTheSalt
12-29-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by rooster
I noticed that RIO was still making a 30' shooting head in type 3 and 6 for a 12 wt. Hunters Angling was carrying them. Does anyone have experience with this head, it should cast on those rods. Also, any comments on decent running lines that don't kink in cooler water?
Rooster

Rooster, I have used a full set of the Rio 30' 12's for three years now and they work great for me. I suspect you are right about them on the CND but will leave that question to Juro.

I don't think I have ever used the type VI, the Type III gets deep enough for me from the beach.

juro
12-29-2003, 02:58 PM
Rooster -

You just gave me an excuse to drive to Nick's place and find out for myself! I'll let you know what I think.

rooster
12-29-2003, 04:32 PM
Thanks for the comments. I'll be curious how the test trip to NH goes. Any comments on preferred running lines for these types of heads?
Rooster

juro
12-29-2003, 09:04 PM
I realize your quest it to find the one perfect line for this rod, but I have to say there are more than one and the search is still on. I believe that people will find an ideal line in one fishery that may or may not be perfect in another, etc.

Here's the report - I was unable to make it all the way to New Boston today but I did stop at a thawed out outdoor skating rink to cast the Atlantis with a Hardy Mach I 9/10 today. This line is approx 44' of head and total length I would guess at 115ft.

Although a tad light for the rod, this length and taper is a really great match from a casting perspective albeit a little long for strip-retrieve fishing. Like the Wulff, the turnover is very well behaved and with the thinner running line it's childsplay to put the backing into the strip guides overhand. Because the taper is longer and finer, and due to a crap leader I whipped on to the line there was a little pigtailing at the end when the entire line was shot, but there was no such turbulence when the stroke was subdued and a 90 ft cast was made. It would be a phenomenal line for those wanting to fish flatwings and floating lines in saltwater. Cutting the level tip and a little back in to the taper should put enough whiplash into it to iron out the pigtailing. But looking at their product line they have more to offer for non-floating line users...

My plan is to buy the 10/11 version (up from the 9/10 I cast today) of this line in the clear intermediate (with colored running line) and cut it back to accept a stout (40# maxima) butt tapering to a typical saltwater tippet, then put it to the test with big flies. I want the shorter length head but I don't want to lose the maigc of the taper while amplifying the turnover a tad. I have a feeling that (a) the excellent taper and (b) cut back turnover will be just the ticket to send this rod into coastal casting nirvana. But until I try it in person it will remain hypothesis. The advantage over the Wulff line is color change at head, thinner running line and suppleness in colder temperatures. The disadvantage is head length where the Wulff is only 30' of head and very aggresive, good for launching big saltwater flies.

So what about spey casts? Although I will be the first to say this 11' rod is far from being a spey-wonder, It did throw the whole line when I made a sweeping outside d-loop with arms barely bent and hit the forward cast correctly with an underhand influence. These short spey compatible lines are the ticket for an over/under rod, if that's what the angler is looking for. Once again it's far from being an ideal spey-casting tool but can handle the task if called upon.

I am still experimenting with as many lines as possible - next I want to explore more airflo heads and the incredible spread of products that Rio puts out. Even a length of T-14 with slick shooter running line will get the stage as soon as I can get it put together :smokin:

My goal is to have a very comprehensive review of as many lines as possible before the linebackers start finning north along the east coast.

Thanks for your patience :)

juro
12-29-2003, 09:11 PM
Jay -

Thanks for the advice, I am going to pick one up. Are you using floaters, intermediates or full sink?



Originally posted by 2HandTheSalt
Rooster, I have used a full set of the Rio 30' 12's for three years now and they work great for me. I suspect you are right about them on the CND but will leave that question to Juro.

I don't think I have ever used the type VI, the Type III gets deep enough for me from the beach.

rooster
12-30-2003, 12:34 AM
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the response. I am just glad to know that there is at least one thawed out pond in the northeast!
rooster:devil:

juro
12-30-2003, 02:05 AM
DOH! Never mind Jay, I finally caught on (type III)

Originally posted by juro
Jay -

Thanks for the advice, I am going to pick one up. Are you using floaters, intermediates or full sink?

2HandTheSalt
12-30-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by juro
DOH! Never mind Jay, I finally caught on (type III)

Juro, I use the floater, int and Type III. Probably the int most, followed by the others. I actually use the floater for poppers.

I like the 30' heads because when you are finished with the retrieve, the fly is only around 40' away. On the outer beach of course, it is right in the wash to one side of you, so you are fishing the fly up to the dirt. Obviously, you don't get maximum distance out of them, for me, 120' is probably the limit, but I more commonly fish them about 100' in daylight and maybe 80-85' at night.

I expect I might retire the 30' floater this year in favor of the new Rio Scandinavian heads. A 30' 12-weight floating head is too large in diameter to be a distance tool, or a finesse tool, but it is good for keeping a popper high & dry. I use it almost exculsively for casting practice, or bluefishing.

jimS
12-30-2003, 02:05 PM
Rooster, regarding your question on a running line to use with the various heads. I'm acquainted with Rio's Powerflex core shooting line. it has a monofilament core and is quite supple in cold water conditions. My experience is with the intermediate in the .035 in diameter. They also make floating and floating with an intermediate tip. Using heavy heads, I'd recommend not going smaller than .035 diameter. Check it out on their website. They are a sponsor for this forum: [URL=www:rioproducts.com]

Simms

rooster
12-30-2003, 05:01 PM
Hi Jim,
I appreciate the reply. I have used the RIO running line and like it.
I was going to rig up my intermediate with the Wulff Bermuda Triangle Taper Salt Water Mono Clear intermediate, but just found out that largest line size available for this line is 10. They do make the opaque colored TT in 12 wt intermediate. Does anyone have any experience with this one in the cooler New England waters?
DK

Doc Duprey
12-31-2003, 10:45 AM
THis has become quite an interesting thread, and it looks like a community of experiment-minded anglers is forming around the issue of lines for two-handers. In that light, are there any comments on Simon Gawesworth's article "Lines for Two-Handers" in the January issue of Saltwater Fly Fishing?

BTW, he will be at the show in Somerset, NJ at the end ofthe month. Might be a chance to pick his brains, if interested.

Happy New Year to all!

-Doc

GregD
03-09-2004, 10:06 AM
I had a chance to try out an inexpensive line I found at the Fly show I thought might work well for the Atlantis. Despite my best efforts 80-100ft was about all I could do with this one. I have to agree with Juro's assumption it would be too light. Guess I should have gone for the Wulff Bermuda 12wt. Curious to hear the reports on the Hardy, and Windcutter when it gets tested out. I'll have to get my Rio 8/9 Scandinavian set-up and try it out.
Hope Simon is right about how far it can be cast.

Tight Lines,
Greg.

juro
03-09-2004, 10:58 AM
Quick update (in the order of testing):

Wulff Bermuda Triangle and Saltwater Series:

The Wulff Triangle SW line remains a very good quickstart line with ample grains and a nice short well-behaved head (30ish) in the 12wt rating. It's still well under the rod's capabilities but it works very well.

Pluses: Intermediate is easy to cast, fishes well, throws huge flies - spool it up and you have a rocket for the beach easy as pie. The floater has a color-change between the head and running line.

Minuses: Cold weather turns the running line stiff, understandably as this is a tropic line. The 12wt floater has not been released yet.

I am considering buying another one to cut the head off and loop it to my all-weather running lines, the head taper is that good.

Airflo Shooting heads and intermediate lines:

The clear intermediate 12wt is a fine line for striper fishing in all temperatures and is super stealthy although the grains are more distributed than the wulff and it doesn't load the rod as well. A 13wt might be better in this range, it doesn't feel tiring at all with these rods to throw such weights.

The shooting heads on the other hand put you into the space program. The video clip was made with a 45' ti-7 Airflo sinking head. The 35 ft head is lighter but still goes well especially on the XT 150' intermediate running line from Airflo. I think Rajeff was trying to tell us something when he made the line 150ft long, when you add the 45ft head it's 195ft before the leader! I will miss casting into the backing, this is the first line setup that the Atlantis doesn't cast into the backing.

The taper on the airflo heads and the poly finish is awesome. The ti-7 heads sink so fast the sink rate is hard to perceive as being less than lc-13 to me. It's a must have for those big tide rips at Chatham and Nauset Inlets.

Rio Scandinavian tri-color:

I only have the hybrid underhand spey line, not the floater. I think the floater is the way to go, because this line brings out the spey casting (underhand) abilities of the rod while being easy to pop over the shoulder and rip it out there a mile. I am not done experimenting with this line but have cut back 3ft from the back of the head to match it up grain wise and it's a good fit. I want to cut the heavier versions and try the floater before I decide how to spool this line up for striper season, more to come. The great news is this makes a great option for the shooting head wallet without extra spools for quick changes on the beach.

Hardy Mach I:

The 9/10 provides a 40something ft head that is a little light but very crisp and if you keep the stroke striaght it will rip the line to the backing gracefully. The 10/11 has a better grain weight for the Atlantis but is a bit too long for the application at 55ish feet. The best line for this rod would be a 40ft head with the grains of the 55'er. Still, both of these lines provide a finesse option that would be ideal for fishing the floating line / flatwing approach with the two-hander. I have still more experimentation with the Hardy heads, which I am convinced will provide a great option to the airflow shooting head arsenal using loops to change quickly on the beach.

SA Short spey heads:

DYING TO TRY THEM... but have not had the chance yet. These will be tests for using as tidewater chinook rods, not striper rods so much but who knows.

Billfish tapers:

There are some billfish lines I have been eyeing at shops. When they go into the bargain bin I will pounce on them. Strangely they are only 65 ft long, which is a bad roll cast for the Atlantis. So if the grains, taper and length work I will add them as the big banger heads for huge popper designs I am working on.

Sky's the limit:

We are only scratching the surface here. As mentioned earlier, 40ft of t-14 is all you need to throw 150ft provided the leader and fly balance out the force (I will be buying a full spool of T-14 from speybum shortly).

Cutting a 30ft shot of a 11/12 spey line's front taper might be the best striper popper line in the world for all we know at this point, or the 1/3 to middle of a grand spey, or the back belly of a 11/12 windcutter, etc - who knows!

Plenty of discovery ahead as the stripers attack the beaches this spring.

GregD
03-09-2004, 12:01 PM
Hi Juro,

Please let me know when you get that t-14 from Speybum, would like to try a couple different lengths of that myself. I appreciate the write up on some of the options etc... I can really appreciate having the right taper and wieght heads after trying to cast lines that are too light. The wulff taper works really well, too bad we can't get it alittle heavier than the 12wt.

Thanks,
Greg.

Jazzman
03-09-2004, 12:15 PM
Rio's Lumalux (floating and intermediate) lines go up to 13 wts. and feature the so-called "Clouser" taper. Like some other lines, they're calibrated to be a little heavier than AFTMA specs. The head is about 40 ft., and I have found a 9 wt. floater to be one of the best, slickest, best casting floaters I've ever tried on my RPLX single hander. I would think a 13 Lumlux would match up pretty well with the Atlantis. Just a thought on a cold, dreary NYC day ...

Jonny

davidstrout
03-09-2004, 12:25 PM
trying, cutting, splicing casting lines for 2 handers

rods casted over this winter extensively....

Sage 14 #9 (older brown graphite RPL I believe-3 piece cannon)
Atlantis 11 (1")X11

Obviously Lots of difference between but great fun in learning the ins/outs of each.....


One handed rods for me are great for so many things however the areas I have had problems w/one handers is as follows:

Grains over 500--My shoulder hurts just thinking about the lame ass 70 foot casts I get with my "dredging lines" (thank god that when I am fishing these distance usually doesn't matter--howver it is a principle thing ya know?)

Big Popppers on my 10 weight---75 ' Max---Those damn gorilla blues are always 10-15 farther away than I can reach--even on a boat, we cut the engine, drift in and they are still too far away sometimes

Big Bunker flies--14" plus--Usually Tied to a heavy sinking Line and I am never happy with either the result of the cast or how it "feels"

Wind---Any sort of wind over 10 knots makes casting over 60' a chore and sometimes dangerous--How often is wind a non-issue??

Summary---I will possibly cast like Ian Devlin or Mark Sedotti one day with my one hander--Unlikely, but I will continue to practice--In the interim I am looking to these two handers to deal with some of the above issues

Two handed rods make casting big poppers and 16" streamers over 100' easy....Its that simple...It is fun..It is nice on my upper body...It also makes me feel that I will have the potential for catching some fish I wouldn't otherwise-

Line Results-(side note--I have not tried any braided mono or mono running lines as my hands and I do not enjoy the fishing applications of these however if all one is looking for is ridiculous distance I am sure that they will add another 20-30' to the cast any of these rods)

Sage--A Cannon--With anything---
12 weight sci ang floating tarpon great for finesse--

Rio scand head 8/9 floater with floating rio running line is like heaven---All in all this is my favorite set up to cast--I am no championship caster by a long shot howver I have measured out many casts in excess of 130'-I just love the delta/wedge shaped 10 inch loop that just snaps off the tip and goes out 90 feet before it even thinks of picking up my tailing loops etc -

37' t14 on a floating .031 running line is a close second with consistent distance around 125'

Atlantis--Ah what a a nice rod--So light--deceptive power--I haven't wired/dialed in this rod but the results after 2 months lead me to believe that I might someday soon--As is I am extemely happy with this rod and look forward to fishing with it.

I like the "feel" of the 8/9 scand head on this rod--My distance gets maxed at about 110'--Very fishable

Got a two pack of ancient clear "monocore" 13 weight intermediate tarpon line (100ft) off E-bay---$10 was a steal for someone--I think it was me because the Atlantis liked this line--Nice clean tight loop and to quote juro "Casting the entire line is child play" When I get some time I will cut the head off the other and experiment--All in all a great "beach line" if you do not need to cast 140' (Not that I could if I needed to anyway)

14 weight Billfish taper line got chopped and looped and attatched to running line and works very nice with large flies to about 110" (I cut a bit too much off the back and it tends to "dump" @ over 100' unless I shorten up the running so that the head gets "kicked over" by the force of the cast hitting the reel

12/13 weight "spey" line got the same treatment as above and again I choppped abit too much off the rear---It is too light to load the atlantis but works well on the Loomis

This rod loves a nice 37-40' head of t 14--Excellent to 120' I am sure that with some more practice this will improve--

I have not enjoyed the performance of any of the Teeny type line on this rod at all TS 450-650 all just suck-Its probabally me but with the sucess of some of the other line I will not care.

I do not know if any one has tried but I think that for me the atlantis will be my ultimate boat rod for fishing rips with heavy lines as well as throwing big poppers--You can pick up almost 50-60 feet of line at once and throw it back out 50 feet with just the one backcast..quick and numerous shots=more fish

Gotta cut this short.....Adios

David

juro
03-09-2004, 12:32 PM
VERY good point! And it would permit night fishing on the big beaches too! I gotta get one... just don't tell the wife what my line budget looked like this year :eyecrazy:

Originally posted by Jazzman
Rio's Lumalux (floating and intermediate) lines go up to 13 wts. and feature the so-called "Clouser" taper. Like some other lines, they're calibrated to be a little heavier than AFTMA specs. The head is about 40 ft., and I have found a 9 wt. floater to be one of the best, slickest, best casting floaters I've ever tried on my RPLX single hander. I would think a 13 Lumlux would match up pretty well with the Atlantis. Just a thought on a cold, dreary NYC day ...

Jonny

juro
03-09-2004, 12:58 PM
Greg -

No problem! I've reserve 40ft for you, might clip it back a little but that's a good starting point.

David -

Thanks for the super account of your experiments with the Sage and Atlantis rods. Meaning no disrespect, I would wager that the difference between the two designs will become very evident once the fish arrive and we are dealing with two more important characteristics beyond the very important ones you've already listed - fly retrieve and landing fish. I could be wrong, you may have already spent a lot of time working the beach with the 14 ft'er and have it figured out. But I've put my share of footprints in the sand with two-handers as well and these were my experiences.

1) retrieving the fly

The 14ft rod posesses a great casting ability, no doubt. A longer rod is a better two-handed casting tool for sure. Of the 13 rods in the CND line, only the Atlantis is "short", and I've played with overhand casting them up to 16' 7" (Thompson Specialist). But once the fly lands, it must be manipulated enticingly for 100 feet thru the water and that's where I found long rods to be lacking in that same "feel" you described in casting.

They are great for putting a swing on a salmon or steelhead fly, but to tease the fly all the way into the nail knot was a different story. I didn't enjoy the weight, the reverberation, the sense of detachment of rods that long while strip retrieving. I agree very much that the feel of a setup is very important. I spent a lot of time playing with two-handers on the beach, almost 9 years now, and I never did get used to the lengthier rods for "fishing" although they were superior for casting.

The wind also exerts side pressure on the rod. The longer the rod, the worse the side pressure. If the rod is heavy, it adds more strain.

2) fighting the fish

During low line angle / longer distance battling I did not mind my 15 foot two-handers on the beach. But when the fish got close or worse yet when I was wading in calmer waters the longer rods were a comedy of errors for me trying to reach the fish for release. In fact any situation where reaching the fish was tentative would become impossible and I resigned to designing a shorter rod that balanced the casting ability with fishing and landing ability.

Hence the Atlantis was born. Hold the top grip and a 9fter in the other hand. There is about 8-10" difference depending on the single hander brand. Now do the same with the 14ft'er - I'd guess that there is approx 44"-46" difference between the two grip-to-tip measurements.

Although I wholeheartedly agree that longer rods are superior casting tools, I couldn't grow into using them for fishing purposes no matter how much I had tried. I'll bet those 20 ft rods that won world casting distance records couldn't land a 20" schoolie :devil:

Thanks again for the great feedback and we'll keep posting findings on line brands as we try them.

rooster
03-11-2004, 07:58 PM
I got rigged up a couple weeks ago and am pleased with the distance/feel of the following lines:
30' LC-13 shooting head on .30 clear RIO intermediate shooting line.
RIO 30' shooting heads in 12 wt. Type 6 and Type 3 on the same .30 intermediate shooting line.
Lee Wulff Bermuda Triangle Clear Intermediate 12 wt. slow sinking line (full lenght line, heavily loaded in the first 30'). Wulff no longer makes this line, but they were able to find a couple in inventory and shipped them to me. The new ones are aqua blue in 12 wt slow sink intermediate.
All heads are attached to shooting lines with braided loops, for quick changing. I beleive all these RIO heads weigh about 400 grains.
I was going to also add the RIO 30' clear intermediate shooting head, but I tend to fish the clear intermediates the most, while up the Cape, so I opted for a full lenght Wulff line. My partner, did add the 12 wt. floating shooting head, I did not.
I haven't fished these yet, but they do cast well.
Tight lines,
Rooster:razz:

juro
03-11-2004, 08:34 PM
Thanks for the update. It seems like the range for this rod is in the 400's (grains) for shorter heads and up to 600 for longer heads, 40-45 ft.

Common thinking in striper country is grain weight in terms of 26-28 ft heads, like the Cortland QD. But as most who play around with lines a little know there is more to the story.

Where the shorter the head, the more influence grains have, the longer the head the less thus the same rod can comfortably carry more grains. A 45 ft 600 grain head does not overload the rod at all.

However lines in the 400's feel fine on the rod as well, which is a surprise since that is almost a 200 grain range of lines albeit different lengths.

I would guess this kind of range is only possible in overhand casting, where such a range in spey casting lines would be unusual at best.

peter-s-c
03-11-2004, 08:57 PM
The weather was too crappy for me to spend more than a few minutes casting but I lined up the Atlantis with my new Airflo Polyshoot running line (all 150' of it) and an Airflo 12 wt. 35' head. I know Juro, that you think this is a bit light but I like the way it works. The side yard is 140' long so I lined up beside the house (100') and blew the fluffy onto the road, backed up, stripped some line, repeated same. At about 120', I figured that was enough considering supper was ready and the rain wasn't letting up. Also tried some underhand stuff and the head worked well this way too. Provided we don't get too much more rain, I'll wet a line with it on Sunday. I'll be using it underhand as the river isn't big enough otherwise, but it'll be fun to try out. I'll also be bringing an older Loop head to try.

Greg Pavlov
05-04-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by juro

In summary, for overhand casting the comfortable range for the Atlantis 1111 ranges from 438 to almost 650 grains with the top end being over a longer length head and taper and the low end compacted into a short head. I am confident that this will extend into higher grain weights for 50-65 foot spey heads, etc.

I was mucking around with sections of spey lines - they're the only lines that I have at the moment that are over 10 wt (AFTMA) and I agree with the range you give. To me, then, it seems that this is more of a 13 wt rod rather than an 11/12, no? I'm looking for a short-headed intermediate line, now that I have a sense of what the rod (and I) do, and it looks like I should get something in the 420 to 460 range, which would be a 13 wt line. Am I missing something, should I be looking for something else ?

flyfisha1
05-04-2004, 06:32 PM
I'd be interested to hear what the best line for a short head (28-30') would be, in terms of weight, for overhead casting from the beach. I'm picking up an Atlantis on Monday or Tuesday of next week from Andrew over at Tight Lines, after test casting it last weekend and hitting 135' on the third cast with an intermediate head. He was using a braided AirFlo running line with 12-wt. heads, but I wanted to get "final" advice before I go in and pick up the rod, running line, and floating, intermediate, and sinking heads.

rooster
05-04-2004, 10:46 PM
In one of my earlier posts I listed the lines that I have purchased for the atlantis. I am pleased with them, and they are the shorter type heads. I have also taken another coil (30') of LC-13 and cut two shorter heads, a 5' and a 10' section. I have added braided loops to the each end. I have not yet had the chance to try out this experiment, but my thinking is that the 30' LC 13 head that I have may sink too quickly for alot of circumstances, BUT I LOVE being able to shoot out 130' of line and backing! I am planning to add the 5' or the 10' section to the other lines (RIO Type 3 and Type 6) when I want to get additional distance or depth from those heads. I have done similar things with lighter lines when I steelhead fish, so I figured it will be worth the try and LC 13 is pretty cheap.
We shall see how it works on the water this weekend!
Good luck,
DK;)

juro
05-04-2004, 11:51 PM
Greg -

Must've been out of town when this post was made. Although the rod will handle 13wt lines, I believe the rating is consistent with other two-handed rods. For instance, one of the nicest casting floating lines for this rod is the Hardy Mach I 10/11 floater, for those who like floaters in salt. The head is quite long (over 50 ft) so it's not for most surf applications, but the line rating is well below the 11/12 rating despite the matchup.

Some 11wt shooting heads actually exceed other 12wt shooting heads in grain weight, so many 11wt shooting heads are actually very much in the right range.

The rod does cast an 11wt very comfortably, albeit light from some manufacturers. It likes most 12wt lines just fine in saltwater tapers as well.

But to your point when you look at actual grain weights as opposed to what line companies put on their labels, their 11 and 12 wt lines are actually 13wt by AFTMA standards. We decided to call the rod an 11/12wt based on two-handed lines and shooting head grains which are commonly used on two-handed rods. Besides if we told people they could cast big flies on a 13wt all day for significant distances without any fatigue I am not sure they'd believe it ;)

You make a good point by AFTMA though.

Originally posted by Greg Pavlov
I was mucking around with sections of spey lines - they're the only lines that I have at the moment that are over 10 wt (AFTMA) and I agree with the range you give. To me, then, it seems that this is more of a 13 wt rod rather than an 11/12, no? I'm looking for a short-headed intermediate line, now that I have a sense of what the rod (and I) do, and it looks like I should get something in the 420 to 460 range, which would be a 13 wt line. Am I missing something, should I be looking for something else ?

juro
05-05-2004, 12:04 AM
I find the airflo 35' and 45' heads to be excellent choices in both 11wt and 12wt for the Atlantis 1111. But even within these heads there is quite a range of variance in grain weight.

All of the 11wt 45' weigh more than all of the 12wt 35' heads. So the 11wt 45' fast sink is way more than enough to load this rod, while to some the 35' 12wt head may feel light.

Best approach is to start by thinking what you want to do - fast sink in rips or more subtle sink with an intermediate - then match the grains for your style of casting.

I like the 35' 12wt intermediate, which weighs in at 474 grains. I also like the 45' 11wt DI7 (super fast sink) for fishing rips, which weighs 583 grains. I have not tried them all but I can assume that short 11wt intermediate and sinking heads are nice while the floater is light. 12wts load the rod a bit heavy on the high-density side (DI7) but are fantastic in the intermediate density.

Like all two-handers, there will be those who prefer a light touch and those who prefer a deep load. The best approach is to attend a get-together and try other people's pet lines to see what will work best for you.

Our sponsor Tightlines (Andrew) has quite the selection by the way, as you know. www.tightlinesflyfishing.com

OK fish, I am ready for the migratory big fish season to begin!

Originally posted by flyfisha1
I'd be interested to hear what the best line for a short head (28-30') would be, in terms of weight, for overhead casting from the beach. I'm picking up an Atlantis on Monday or Tuesday of next week from Andrew over at Tight Lines, after test casting it last weekend and hitting 135' on the third cast with an intermediate head. He was using a braided AirFlo running line with 12-wt. heads, but I wanted to get "final" advice before I go in and pick up the rod, running line, and floating, intermediate, and sinking heads.

Greg Pavlov
05-05-2004, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by juro
Greg -Must've been out of town when this post was made. ...
Thanks, Juro. I believe that the line - complete line, not shooting head - I would feel most comfortable with would be a clear intermediate with a short head. If you or anyone else can recommend one they have tried with the rod, I would appreciate it. I assume, because of the short head, that I would want a 13 wt, which reduces the range of possibilities, but I'd be happy to find out that I'm wrong and that a specific 12 wt wiill do just fine.

juro
05-05-2004, 12:29 AM
I have tried the airflo 12wt 35ft shooting head (35ft, 474 grains) and liked it. You could easily go to a 13wt AFTMA head, depending on brand.

The assessment of grains over feet from 475 to 600 in lengths of 35-45 ft is a good guideline, if the 13wt line is in this range you should be golden.

Consequently, this grain range is similar to an 8/9 spey line from most companies :eyecrazy:

SpeySteel
05-05-2004, 02:14 PM
Hi Peter,

I feel the rod casts best with the airflow heads you're using, only I like them in 35' instead of 45'. The intermediate, DI-3 and DI-7 are all great. The grain weights in the 35' are a little less, but they still load the rod excellent, and overall they perform better. They're easier to handle, they turn over cleaner, and shoot excellent.

The next thing is to get the right running line. The running line I've found to be most user friendly is the Airflow Miracle Braid Non-Stretch running line. It's got a good diameter, so it's easy to handle, but still shoots excellent. Also, it doesn't stretch at all, so it helps to pick the head up out of the water. Some of the braided running lines are too stretchy and don't allow the caster to pick the line out of the water comfortably and it also takes away from the load in the rod if that makes any sense. The other nice thing about the Airflow braided running line is that you can pull the braid back into itself and make a nice loop on both ends. I put a bimini in my backing and loop the running line to that and then the nice smooth loop transitions great into the welded loop on the Airflow heads. The Airflo running lines and heads are a great system, and I consistently get 130-150' casts with it using the Atlantis.

The Polyshoot XT running lines by Airflo are also excellent. You just have to whip loops to accommodate the heads.

Good luck with the Atlantis, it's an awesome tool.

Andrew Moy
973-244-5990

DickIvers
05-15-2004, 06:26 PM
Dear SpeySteel,

Question on Airflo Miracle Braid non-stretch running line.

I can't get this braid to thread into itself like other braids I've used. How do you do this? I'm using a music wire threader that works with other braids . Also, this braid seems quite slippery in my hands. How you found this a problem?

I think I'll try the Polyshoot XT running line instead of this braid.

Dick

SpeySteel
05-17-2004, 12:47 PM
Hi,

I like the Airflow running line as it is easy to handle. When you say slippery, do you mean you have trouble holding it during the 2 hand cast with the Atlantis? If so, use 2 fingers to pinch the line against the cork(your index and middle finger of your right hand if you're right handed). This works great. Below I've shot a few illustrations of how to pull a loop back into the braid. When you get to the 3rd step, use something to hold the side of the loop you're not pulling through, while you pull the tag back through the braid.

Good luck,
Andrew Moy
Tight Lines Fly Shop
973-244-5990

SpeySteel
05-17-2004, 12:48 PM
Put tip of line in bobbin threader

SpeySteel
05-17-2004, 12:49 PM
begin pulling tag end back through braid. I hold the side of the loop with my teeth lightly(so I don't damage the braid) while I pull on the bobbin threader.

SpeySteel
05-17-2004, 12:51 PM
Pull it through and adjust size of loop to what you desire.

SpeySteel
05-17-2004, 12:52 PM
Cut tag end very close so it pulls back into the braid. Hit with some zap-a-gap. Done.