Curt Kraemer Presentation at the Sept 3 Wild Steelhead Coalition meeting [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Curt Kraemer Presentation at the Sept 3 Wild Steelhead Coalition meeting

08-27-2003, 05:44 PM
Wild Steelhead Coalition Member Meeting
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003
7pm (6:30 Social)
Bothell American Legion Post
19213 Bothell Way NE, Bothell, WA

Guest Speaker: Curt Kraemer, WDFW Region 4 Freshwater Fisheries Program Manager

Title: "Fishing our way to recovery: Puget Sound's Comprehensive Chinook Fishery Management Plan"

Curt's presentation will describe the state-tribal co-manager's harvest management plan for Skykomish River chinook to illustrate methods currently used to plan salmon/steelhead fisheries while at the same time attempting to recover threatened salmon runs.

He will discuss
1) What the Fish Management Plan is;
2) How the allowable fishing rate or Recovery Expliotation Rate (RER) was developed for the Skykomish Chinook.
3) How that RER is used in determining fishing seasons.

Curt will also provide an update on North Puget Sound wild steelhead spawner escapements based on spring 2003 surveys.

Curt has worked for the state of Washington for 30+ years and is currently freshwater fisheries program manager for Region 4 where he oversees all the freshwater fish management activities. He has worked in the North Puget Sound region since 1974. At one time or another he has had responisbility for steelhead management in the Nooksack, Samish, Skagit, Stillaguamish, and Snohomish basins. This will be Curt's 3rd presentation to the Wild Steelhead Coalition in the past 3 years.

Mean Mr Mustard
08-27-2003, 06:14 PM
...gotta behave, gotta behave...

Okay, if I was to go arme... bearing gifts of very, very ripe tomatoes woul...

Sorry, Mean Mr Mustard is having one of those days, he taken to shuffling around and mumbling something about corkie clowns or something. Please excuse his interruption.

Have a nice day!
Mean Mrs Mustard


08-27-2003, 06:45 PM
Howdy Mean Mrs. Mustad,

The "old boy" has probably just run low on tranny fluid and is slipping his gears. Quick give him a Sprite on ice and get out some of those pretty dyed guinea feathers for him to look at. That should calm him down. Take care, Poppy

08-27-2003, 10:56 PM
Save your tomatoes for Bob Gibbons... ;)

IMHO, Curt is one of the best within the WDFW. We may not always agree but I have to say, there is nobody within the WDFW that is as open, forthcoming and approachable as Curt is.

Many of us within the WSC have Curt to thank for the excellent education he has provided us over the past few years via presentations, casual phone calls etc. etc. ;)

Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 12:17 AM
Did you know that the Gibbons monkey can stand erect with both feet flat to the ground and still touch his toes. Interesting adaptation; wonder what Mother Nature had in mind there?


Kids, how many times do I have to tell you to stay out of those rotten tomatoes!

08-28-2003, 02:56 AM
If I'm captain, win the coin toss and pick anyone out of the entire league roster, I pick Curt first. Hall of fame all star. MMM, have you been watching too much TV ? Animal Channel mixed with Bunol reports? :)

Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 03:34 AM
Who needs TV with all this poaching to keep one busy. And then there is the frolicking with the sisters. Yeehaw!


Q - What do you get when you put two bait fisherman together?
A - A Klueless Klan Klave.

Q - What do you get when you put two Republicans together?
A - The beginnings of a conspiracy.

Q - What do you get when you put all the drunks into the holding cell?
A - A conservative think tank.

Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 03:59 AM
Peace, Mr. Sinktip.

Just having a little fun and blowing off my disappointment at the seeming loss of the winter and summer runs of 2003. And Mr. Howzer was thoughtful enough to make two such posts; I only smudged up the one.

:hehe: :devil:


08-28-2003, 09:56 AM
Addressed to the honorable Mr. Mustard,

You know me, I am a pacifist. I abhor confrontation and disagreement. Please forgive if my delicate sensibilities are offended.

Oh and the posts above are right. Curt is a good guy. Now his evil identical twin brother Skippy, that is another story. :D

08-28-2003, 11:21 AM
Who needs TV with all this poaching to keep one busy. And then there is the frolicking with the sisters. Yeehaw!

Q - What do you get when you put two bait fisherman together?
A - A Klueless Klan Klave.

Q - What do you get when you put two Republicans together?
A - The beginnings of a conspiracy.

Q - What do you get when you put all the drunks into the holding cell?
A - A conservative think tank

Howdy MMM,

I hope you'll send me an e-mail and explain all of the above.
Maybe you'll be in a better mood after one of ST69's coharts goes thru there. :)

Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 12:50 PM

Just working on my standup routine, a la Dennis Miller! Now there's a guy I would love to go fishing with. :chuckle:


08-28-2003, 02:04 PM
From Voice of America:
"A bizarre Antarctic chase has ended in the southern Atlantic Ocean. South African and Australian officials have arrested the crew of a ship loaded with 85 tons of illegally caught fish, worth an estimated $2 million. The fish, the rare Patagonian toothfish, also known as Chilean sea bass, is popular in restaurants in the United States and Japan, but environmentalists say poaching has pushed the species to the brink of extinction. For three weeks in icy Antarctic waters, an Australian fisheries patrol boat called the Southern Supporter chased the Uruguayan-flagged fishing trawler Viarsa 1, suspected of illegally catching the rare Patagonian toothfish in Australian waters."

I hear that the Australian fisheries patrol is hiring! :chuckle:

:p Go get em Steven! - Hmmm

08-28-2003, 02:27 PM
Q: How do you keep a Liberal busy?
A: Write 'See other side' on both sides of a piece of paper.

Q: What do you call a basement full of Liberals?
A: A whine cellar.

Q: What is the difference between a liberal and a puppy?
A: A puppy stops whining after it grows up.

Q: What is it called when a Liberal blows in another Liberalís ear?
A: Data transfer.

Q: Who was the first liberal Democrat?
A: Christopher Columbus.
He left not knowing where he was going,
got there not knowing where he was,
left not knowing where he'd been
and did it all on borrowed money.

Are we on a roll or what? :chuckle:


Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 02:37 PM
Hmmm, Plunker... sounds like the product of a seriously restricted bowel movement. Apropos...?


Mean Mr Mustard
08-28-2003, 02:47 PM
Seems with the capture of the Uruguayan ship there is now a vacuum to fill for Plunker and his buds.


Bob Pauli
08-28-2003, 11:48 PM
In the last year there has been nothing but negative comments about Washington state's WDFW [gamies for you Canadians, whoops Canadiens]. Now there appear comments that this presenter is a "good guy."

That is a lot of c_ _p. There are no good guys in an excrement-laden agency. If he had any heuvos, he would have blown the whistle in the highest circulation media outlet in his state, resigned and found an honorable job.

So who will confront him with the hard questions?

08-29-2003, 01:00 AM
"There are no good guys in an excrement-laden agency"

Says who? That's a silly statement. If you knew of Kraemer's accomplishments you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

Mr. Kraemer doesn't dodge questions. I'm sure he looks forward to the "hard questions."

08-29-2003, 09:56 AM

I think you might be proposing throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have asked Curt the hard questions both in public and in private. While I might not agree with all of his answers, I do respect the man and what he has been able to accomplish given the constraints he operates under. He is a biologist not a policy maker. Do you agree with your bosses all the time?


08-29-2003, 03:05 PM
Sinktip - I hope that you and some of the others in your organization have developed a bit of respect for Bob Gibbons since his presentation about sustained yield.

I've not read continuous harping of the faults of MSH & MSY since his clarification of the issues nor have I yet read any suggestions for a better method to determine allocation of surplus fish.

For those of you who will say there are no "surplus steelhead or salmon" I say, "Tell that to the Indian Tribal fish managers."

08-29-2003, 07:17 PM

Kraemer is a very fine fisheries biologist who cares deeply about the resource, and I for one am very glad that he is still working.


I thought the Indian wars ended well over 100 years ago. Isn't it about time that we quit worrying about getting ours since they got theirs and spend our time, money, and efforts on ensuring that we have wild steelhead to fish for?


What do you get when you put 6 stoned dudes in the library?
A think tank.

Mean Mr Mustard
08-29-2003, 07:45 PM

If I may be so bold as to correct you - A very *mellow* think tank.:razz:


08-29-2003, 11:05 PM

Yes, and they will end their session with a position tape (it is too much bother to put it on paper) on what a mosquito is thinking and feeling as it suddenly realizes that your hand is about to squish it. Of course the session must end with the draining of some Mogan David, Boone's Farm, Annie Green Springs, or a good Sangria as a thirst quencher while listening to Iron Butterfly after such strenuous use of the brain.

08-29-2003, 11:33 PM
While you guys are busy arguing, I'm going fishing. The streams will probably be pretty empty with all involved in the argument!
Fight nice, kiddies!


Mean Mr Mustard
08-29-2003, 11:41 PM

Not so. The substance abuser you refer to would never have stepped into any library - such a total downer.

Now the mellow fellows, they'd do a paper or two, particularly the flavored kind. And the only casualty to their position would be Mary's reputation.

The conservative group - well, think pandora's box. War, resource exploitation, privacy rights infringements, etc., ad naseum. It is all there IF you are willing to open up your eyes and be honest with yourself.

Greed won the last election, may common sense carry the next.


08-30-2003, 12:37 AM
MMM and Flytyer,

STOP! I just read about MD 20-20 and InAGodaDivida. I think I am having one of those flashbacks they warned would come.


Alas, I am no longer an officer in the WSC. My role is simply advisement and member. This does free me up though to take a less PC stand on some issues. You have read that I think highly of Curt. You have not seen me share my feelings about Bob G.. I have some of course and ever since I stumbled across him coaching one of the catch and bonk crowd on what arguments to focus on during this person's 3 minute commission testimony time, my feelings have been pretty strong. I will keep those to myself though. On the bright side, I'm sure his mother loves him.

Bobk has the right idea, I need to go swing a line.

Mean Mr Mustard
08-30-2003, 01:14 AM
And you're right Sinktip. I'll just throw my SDS armband back into the trunk and go fishing, too.


08-30-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by flytyer
I thought the Indian wars ended well over 100 years ago. Isn't it about time that we quit worrying about getting ours since they got theirs and spend our time, money, and efforts on ensuring that we have wild steelhead to fish for?

What are you getting at here? If you have a problem with the 50/50 tribal/citizen allocation of the resource you might be well off to join a white supremist group. Lots of MD 20/20 and In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida there to keep you happy.

Unless the treaties are sometime revoked it seems proper to abide by them no matter how much you personally despise the Indians and their harvest mentality. They do have a genuine right to 50% of the harvestable surplus, despite any ill feelings on your part, while you have but a privilege to play with them.

I would advise that you shelve your prejudice and if you find a problem with the MSH system of determining the allocations then think up a better system and promote it to your legislators and the WDFW.

sinktip - You have indeed expressed some of your feelings about Mr. Gibbons in the past but not in a place as public as this forum. Would I expect less from someone fanatically opposed to tradition?

08-30-2003, 05:24 PM

Mad Dog!? You have had a bad trip with flashbacks like this!


Mary's reputation was not tarnished in the least. If anything, it was enhanced through the philosophical discussions engaged in while in her presence.


I was referring to your prior post about telling the Indian Tribal Fish Managers that there are no surplus fish. I have no problem with the treaties and the allocation of harvestable fish. I do think that it is high time that we non-Indians quit raising the spector of tribal fisheries managers taking their 50% of "surplus fish" regardless of what we sportsmen do.

I do have a big problem with MSY and MSH because they are both make-believe numbers since there is no data whatsoever on any of our anadromous rivers and streams in Washington State that has determined what the actual (as opposed to assumed) minimal escapement is for complete seeding of the resourse. These numbers are a guess at best, and pure fantasy at worst as a result.

Of the two, MSY is better in my mind than MSH simply because it is more favorable to the fish. However, it is also based on conjecture and assumptions without a corresponding basis in factual numbers of fish excapement required for complete utilization of the available riverine habitat. This is why I am in favor of catch-and-release of all wild anadromous salmonids with retention of clearly marked hatchery fish only being allowed year-round. The hatchery fish have nothing to do with the escapement needs of any given watershed; therefore, there is no worry about bonking all of them effecting the needed spawning of wild fish.

This is a better system than MSH or MSY, and I have been promoting this to my local legislators and WDFW anually since 1992. Alas, it has not been adopted yet!

08-30-2003, 05:53 PM
Would I expect less from someone fanatically opposed to tradition?

The fish rises to meet the suspended eggsack, sees the offering for what it really is, and slowly settles back to the river bottom. :tsk_tsk:

Mean Mr Mustard
08-30-2003, 06:57 PM

You knew Mary, too?



08-30-2003, 11:33 PM
Mary didn't need me! But that made it a simple life, for the pursuit of the things piscene.
As one who is above all this "political stuff" I would just like to say " When the still sea's conspire in amour and her sullen and abortive currents breed tiny monsters, true sailing is dead."
Is there anyone who would dispute this ? Morrison, although dead, is curious!

08-31-2003, 06:30 PM

Several University Park all-night eateries had after-the-midnight-hour visits from most of us frat brothers to satisfy, shall we say, "cravings" after spooning Mary's short cousins. Beyond this, I plead the 5th.

09-02-2003, 10:12 AM
Can't imagine what Curt must think of us all now, except that he did go to college once too.

Mary had to pay a visit three days out. With fair winds from the North, full sails and 8 hours of a following seas. Sore shoulders, tired hands from tiller wear a naked woman on board encrusted in tanning oil and salt. What could a man do? Put a trolling rod out with flasher & hootchie behind. But at 9 knots on the surfing side of things silvers were lost behind and there were no marlin this far North.

Sore shoulders and tired hands, ah Mary came just in time, relax, focus on the ride at hand. Lift and drop into a trough time and time again, focus, focus on the job ahead don't loose her now. Boy do those cresting waves sparkle in the afternoon sun. Around Daybob P. as evening came things smoothed out, home port is near. Up into a slackening wind and dropping cloth and good woman you put some cloth back on, home port is near.

And that flasher/ hootchie drug behind? 5 pounds of very dead and water logged silver sea anchor, God only knows for just how long. With hooks so small thank goodness there are no Marlin this far North!

Did anyone else really fish this long weekend or was I the only one?

What a good weekend, it's good to be 22 again. Sparkey eat your heart out!

Mean Mr Mustard
09-02-2003, 12:18 PM
Yep, sounds like OC got a little...


;) done.