: Pere Marquette Salmon Rig?
07-11-2003, 08:23 AM
Head up to the Pere Marquette in mid September for my first attempt at a king salmon. I've not found much information on what type of rig/leader to use on the big boys but I did find one diagram. You you guys with some Salmon experience let me know if this looks like a decent set-up, and if not please steer me in the right direction.
That's a west-coast drift gear setup. The best rod for the job is an 8.5 foot trigger handled faster action sensitive tip rod with a light but powerful conventional reel, Shimano, Penn, Ambassador - and lots of 15 - 17 lb test mono (for kings). A little less suitable is a longer spinning rod, again 8.5, rated to handle at least 15# line and the reel must have super high capacity since you can't thumb the spool like the conventional reels.
Oh wait... were you thinking of fishing that on a fly rod? :devil:
07-11-2003, 08:51 AM
Yea found the info on a fly fishing site dedicated to Michigan Steelhead/Salmon fishing in the Lake Michigan tribs. Here's the link for the site: http://trailstotrout.com/tips.html . Sounds like a fairly knowlegable fellow to me, but I could be wrong.
It was interested though I have a video called Pere Marquette Salmon and they were fly fishing with what looked like a 1/2 ounce egg sinker on their leader. It made one heck of a splash when it hit the water.
AAACK:eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy:.
07-11-2003, 11:36 AM
You may want to consider using an indy set-up. You'll foul a lot less fish this way.
These guys can help. http://www.fishbaldwin.com/index.cfm
You can also get some fresh ups to go after a swing. There is nothing better than a solid take on the swing.
07-11-2003, 12:46 PM
Here is a clip of the video that I was talking about. I have the entire film but half way through the clip you will see a lady awkwardly throwing a fly 30 ft! It shows the actual egg sinker in the full length film and it freaked me out that is why I posted because I have never seen anything like it before. Like Juro said it looks like a rig for a spinning rod, but I thought since it was similar both on the video and on the diagram that I posted above I thought I was missing something. Maybe this type rig is used to foul hook the fish I'm not sure. I'm a Smallmouth guru myself so this is a little different world for me!
Here's a link to the video clip: http://flyfishingvideos.com/ffvm_vol71_broadband.html
You'll see what I'm talking about if you watch the clip.
Anyway voodoofly can you elaborate a little on the indy set-up your talking about. I would appreciate it!
07-11-2003, 01:23 PM
Was just looking a fishbaldwin.com and found an article describing what sounds like the Chuck-n-Duck method that the diagram shows above. It must be a popular method from what info I'm finding, but I'm not all that interested in pitching a big hunk of lead at a fish.
The second half of the article describes the indy method used which defiently seems a little bit more like fly fishing to me. Thanks for the help guys and anymore pointers in the right direction would be greatly appreciated!!!
Here's a link to the article if interested: http://www.fishbaldwin.com/indicator_rigs.html
07-11-2003, 01:45 PM
That indy rig is more along the lines of what you want Will. If I were you I would spend most of my time on dark water behind salmon redds with egg flies. It wouldn't surprise me at all to get a Steely that early. Trout and Steel are both fairly aggressive towards smallish streamers that time of year too. Good luck.
07-11-2003, 02:00 PM
Yea I think your right. Is the Chuck-n-Duck a popular method for Salmon on the Great Lakes Tribs? I have found more info on that type of set-up compared to any other method.
Will, I don't claim to be an expert. I catch my share using my methods.
1. The rig you have pictured would be illegal in NY. We changed the law to prevent snagging, "lifting", or whatever you want to call it. We have a law that most people call a "leader" law (but it is not). Instead, it merely says that the length of leader from the first weight (towards the fisherman) to the hook shall not exceed four feet. In other words, you can use a 10 foot leader if you want, but no weight beyond four feet from the hook.
2. I have seen this type of rig used, but in all cases the flyline was replaced entirely with monofilament. Definitely NOT fly fishing by any stretch. I think that MAY have been what you saw the gal doing - just an easygoing over-the-shoulder swing, and a big SPLASH!
In general, on our GL Streams (Lake O. tribs), I fish either with an indicator and a beadhead fly, or, in deep holes, just with a split shot or two ahead of the fly with no indicator. Works for me!
Most guys use egg patterns, but I branch out somewhat. I will send you a PM with a suggested web site that gives tying instructions for a few decent patterns - that work!
I can't guarantee they will work on the PM or Michigan waters, but the info won't hurt.
07-11-2003, 03:25 PM
Your probably right about that set-up being used for snagging. That's not my idea of fly fishing so I'm going with a different method. The people on the video were defiently using "fly line" and not pure mono but they were casting in a way that I have never seen in my fly fishing years. These people produce a very popular video series that I'm sure almost every flyfisherman has heard of and they are basically SNAGGING these fish? They mentioned the "Chuck-n-Duck" method on the video as their preference so that is how I ended up finding the original diagram. That's why at first I just thought it was a normal setup for the salmon and didn't think twice about it.
They were even with a quide from the Pere Marquette Lodge that obviously was O.K. with them using this type of setup. That's really quite shocking that someone would produce a fly fishing video when there just snagging fish.
There are MANY unsporting methods to catch 'em, unfortunately. A buddy of mine spotted a "guide" and a maker of videos up on the Salmon River, during filming last fall. I mentioned blatant snagging - "lifting" is a less obvious way to accomplish the same end. These guys don't jerk on the rod, they lift gradually through a fish holding run, then set the hook hard when they feel resistance.
But these guys were "lining" when they were making the video. They would cast timing the drift so that the leader in drifting downstream passed into the fish's mouth, then jerking back to set the hook (usually on the outside of the fish's mouth on the opposite side). Although it sounds complicated, it is surprisingly easy to do - and I hate it when I see it, but there's not much you can do about it. It appears like the fish struck at the fly, as he is hooked near the mouth - and as a warden will tell you, it won't hold up in court!
Welcome to the madness of the fall runs! You will even see guys using up to 25 lb. mono (or heavier) and surf rods/reels, ad nauseum. It's really quite a zoo. And forget about most of these clowns having learned any manners - they don't know any! They will even try to crowd you out if you are in a good spot on some of the more crowded rivers. You'd think the fish were solid gold, the way the people seem to go berserk!
07-11-2003, 04:18 PM
I'm going to try to stay within the "fly only" section which is about a 7 mile stretch of the river, so hopefully I won't be seeing the "Surf Rods". I have heard alot about people snagging/foul hooking fish and I just can't understand why a fly fisherman would stoop to such a level. Might as well get a spinning reel and throw on a treble hook! Sure you catch a few more like that.
Just to forewarn you, the incident with the guide/videomaker happened on the lower fly only C&R zone on the Salmon River. Don't be misled - some guys cheat pretty badly with fly gear, while trying to act like sportsmen. Fortunately our wardens are catching on, and nailing 'em - but there just aren't enough wardens to go around!
My buddy saw some blatant snagging last season - told 'em to knock it off. They told him to go screw himself - but not so nicely. So he dug in his pocket and dug out a glasses case, and made believe it was a cell phone - but they still kept on snagging.
Finally, he ran into a warden who had seen him, but thought he had a cell phone and was warning his buddies, so gave up on the snaggers. Joe told him what happened, and the warden ran downstream and nailed all of 'em! Cost them a pretty penny, from what I heard!
Don't get me wrong - the vast majority of fishermen are nice guys, out to have fun and be good sportsmen. But there are always a few rotten apples that just grate on your nerves when you see them in action.
I'm sure you will have fun, catch some fish, but will also have a few experiences to leave you scratching your head.
07-11-2003, 07:46 PM
You will experience combat fishing at it's finest in September. If you can go after bow season starts, 10/1, there will be less people to deal with and if you can go after rifle season starts, 11/15, you can sometimes hear an echo. I live for late season and early winter chrome.
I'd advise to leave people be. You really don't want to confront some people in the wood. Ignore and move on. I don't get hung up on other's ethics anymore. I make sure that I do what is right and just. I make sure I enjoy my time on the water.
Last fall I saw some poor soul dragging a very dark king out. He had a big ol southern grin (few teeth missing, too). I asked what he had and what he was going to do. He said got me a salmon and it's going to be good eatin on the smoker. I smiled. Did I mention the fishes body was separating from the head? If he had to walk another 100 yards he would only have a head on the rope. I smiled at this thought too.
07-12-2003, 09:40 AM
Sorry I didn't get into this thread earlier as I was out of town for a couple of days. Not all of the GL is as big a zoo as Michigan when it comes to rigging. They seem to have the most fishermen using the type of rig pictured, and it's used right in the FF only areas. The lifting, which we call flossing in Wisconsin, is common throught the whole area, though. Perhaps as many as 90% of all the salmon caught in the GL are caught this way. There was a time a few years ago when I would have disagreed with this statement, but the proof is in the pudding. The fact is that it is so bad I don't even fish the tribs in September or most of October any more. Voodoofly is right. It's best to wait until into November. Most of the salmon are gone by then so most of the idiots are off doing something else. Unfortunately, that often involves guns which is kind of scary. When you see people fishing "chuck & duck" and they have a fly line on, it is almost always just a running line with no head or taper. It's like a two weight level fly line. I think this is used only because it is easier to manage than all mono. Also, it is importat to heed the caution about confronting people who are fishing unethically. Some serious fights and even threats with weapons have happened in our area. It really is that bad on some streams, especially those near major metro areas. It's just not worth it. Find a warden (good luck with that) but don't confront them personally. For those of you who might think this is all being exaggerated, spend some time reading the reports on the Steelhead Site during September and October. It really is an embarrassment.