: Do Beansprouts Feel Pain?
OK all you scientists...... I know your out there... Lurkers too, this concerns everyone.
Here's you chance to make a difference.
This (http://www.msnbc.com/news/907199.asp?cp1=1) is a scary article. I say we prove beansprouts have feelings too:eek: That should be enough to send Peta running.
Personally I really don't care if the fish can feel pain but I am very concerned about the beansprouts.
04-30-2003, 04:47 PM
Heard about the new scientific evidence on the ride home. Here we go again.
04-30-2003, 04:52 PM
Acid and Bee venom are a little different than hooks unless I've missed a significant part of this fishing thing. I want to go on a rant but I'll leave it at that.
If I was a fish and I didn't know what vinegar tasted like, I would rub my mouth on the rocks too. You can't tell me that eating Blue Claw Crabs whole is less painful then a barbless fly. I won't believe it. Ever.
04-30-2003, 04:59 PM
As part of my find something positive in everything approach to life....I am hopeing that they can pinpoint the fish that feels the MOST pain because chances are that's the species that fights the hardest. Then I can focus all my time and attantion on the good fighters(or pain feelers) and all this science won't go to waste. :devil:
And what has PETA ever done to save entire species of fish from extinction? What about anglers? If not for those who lead a life of interaction with animals, respecting their habitat, protecting their welfare against eccentric human thinking, they and their habitat would have long been wiped out.
So who really cares about fish, anglers or PETA? Let's compare track records over the last few centuries. Literally millions of sportsmen spend time, money and energy protecting the resources they interact with. PETA pontificates about an irritated lip while dams wipe entire species from existence and 14 mile oil slicks float toward precious shorelines.
Get your heads out of your warm and fuzzy $%#^@ and see the big picture - it's not about a sting in the lip, it's about keeping the concept of wild places and the species that thrive in them from vanishing under the spinning wheels of civilzation.
Obviously some people have spun so far away from the rhythm of nature and mother earth that they are obsessed with minutia, a sting in the lip, instead of the welfare of an entire species.
We accept vaccines to prevent or even eliminate measles, small pox, major devastating diseases that affect populations, not local neurons. We inject anesthetics to avoid pain in surgery, a flesh cutting practice that saves lives and families. Sometimes it takes a little sting to improve the big picture. What a bunch of idiots, really!
04-30-2003, 08:08 PM
Sportsmen are so good at promoting PETA. PETA does a foolish press release, that most of the world ignores, and sportsmen wind up their panties untill they can can hardly breath. The internet slows to a crawl as every hunting/fishing forum cries and moans about big bad, scary PETA. I got news for you all: PETA is like the Wizard of OZ. A weak little man behind a megaphone. Everyone else in the US can see this, but not sportsmen. Too bad. We should just ignore them. Or we can cry like babies. Then kids will think that fishing is cool.
We need to keep our eye on the real threats to fishing: habitat loss, overfishing, pollution, and access. Thes factors have already made fishing forever worse. How has PETA affected our fishing? While we are whining about how PETA might be a threat, comercial fishermen are allowed to catch more stripers than ever. The clean air and water and endangered species acts are being dismantled and ignored. Private land owners are buying up land a closeing it off to fishermen and on and on.
As for fish feeling pain...who cares? Would any of us quit fishing if we thought fish feel pain? If fish could think, don't you think that they would be thankfull that we release most of them?
04-30-2003, 09:32 PM
I was waiting for a fire breathing rant on this one. Juro's got my vote for the "Rant Of The Day"!
04-30-2003, 09:34 PM
If I were to follow my own personal bias, I would delete this thread in its entirety right now. I read the article in full this afternoon and didn't post about it because of reasons that Eddie has already brought up....PETA is merely a group of lemmings, letting one drone lead them to the edge of an intellectual cliff. No, that's not right....for that model to work, they'd have to have intellect to start with. :rolleyes: And again, Juro has made some great points. The hollow can is the one that makes the most noise, right?
Let me say as a scientist with a very strong background in physiology that this study, while it may stand on its own, is a mere grain of sand in comparison to a beach of other studies that have shown fish to be lacking the cerebral essence to process pain. They merely act on instinct. The concept of pain requires a psychological component that DOES NOT EXIST in fish. Period. There was no information given regarding the modeling of this study, and I'm very certain that if it is ever provided that it could be shown to hold some bias (either statistical or within its inherent design).
I could delve into further detail, but it's not worth my time. If you're really interested, ask me via PM. In the meantime, let's spend our energies on what we love. It's okay to be aware of extreme animal rights groups, but let's not give them a podium.
This study sounds to me like one made up especially for the press, with a predetermined conclusion, and lacking in logical, statistical or scientific foundation. Forget about it.
04-30-2003, 10:13 PM
If fish felt pain, the Big Guy would have given them vocal chords (OUCH):eyecrazy:
And Bob, it's FAHGEDABOUDIT!
05-01-2003, 04:37 AM
I thought peta were against testing on animals.
Yet they let a big nasty scientist inject those cute little trouties (probably called Timmy) with a big nasty needle containing acid and bee venom. Let us all go down and protest break the tank and let the trout go.
There's one thing everybody keeps forgetting. Liberty. Freedom.
Sadly, both are veils for mutiny, sedition, treachery and evil.
Military Forces go to war to mostly uphold political beliefs; The United States Military goes to war to mostly support freedom and democracy; both tenets, proven to work in society, worldwide.
We (generic), the mostly liberal democratic citizens of these United States, espouse domestic and world freedoms. Which, by support alone, fosters and EMPOWERS extremism, radical activity and the existence of groups like these fascists. Regardless of how any one of us, the sporting population feels, whether it be toward their irrelevance or underhandedness or whatever, our government structure allows them to exist. That is where the barrage of counter-fire needs to be directed; back to valid arguments against their actions and activities and the legality thereof; whether by their actions if they violate basic premises of governmental authorization of their existence...back to the stewards of any enabling legislation letting these organizations thrive...
Example: Lately, everybody's bitching about ASMFC and Amendment 6. I, for one, am as guilty as anyone else who didn't take time to write or attend a meeting to voice my strong opposition to changes in Striper regulations. So, I get what I give.
My point: In my mind, by my personal inaction - regardless of my pisspoor, weak excuses as to why I didn't or couldn't; to fail to make my position known and myself heard on Amendment 6 or anything else which directly affects my 'rights', is parallel with ignoring the subversive and devastating effects these types of organizations have on our right and privilege to fish - which is exactly what it is, a right as well as a privilege. I an unwilling to let the progeny of the 'ME' generation take away something that is, always was and will continue to be a part of MY life.
There is no one amendment to the Constitution of the United States which supersedes or invalidates any other amendment. And, the United States Constitution - the document of freedom from which the world draws and aspires to (or SHOULD), was fashioned after the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the oldest continuously effective Constitution in the WORLD; Massachusetts, Where 'Freedom' Began.
If we ignore them, they continue to metastasize.
[EDIT:] If we ignore them, WE BECOME IRRELEVANT.
I swore my allegiance to the flag a long time ago, for a lot of different reasons. Little did I think at the time I'd be defending the EMPOWERMENT and EXISTENCE of groups like these. The Five Freedoms are great, as long as they don't mutate into weapons against themselves and ultimately US. Frankly, I like the Five Freedoms as Norman Rockwell portrayed them, not the ways they've been twisted to suit the needs of the user.
If a grain of sand gets in my shoe, does it not irritate me to rid myself of it? It is not a case of 'ignore them and they will disappear'.
Every time a report like this comes out, I cringe a little harder and feel myself steeling to do battle a bit more.
I'll be damned if I'll let my freedoms be eliminated by people whose freedoms I fought to uphold.
I hope everyone who reads this extracts a tiny sliver from it that affects them positively, personally. I am not attacking anyone here, nor do I desire to get into a firefight because of what I feel.
Dave, Very well said. I agree that if you ignore them they will not go away. Regardless of PETA's size or finances at present one thing is certain, they play on emotions. It doesn't cost much to put up a billboard for a month or two. Since most of the public (myself included) might not always take the time to dig into the facts of an issue they may be lead in a certain direction without too much effort. Take the steel traps in Mass. - a few years back the use of these traps was abolished. Images of household pets and small children were put into the heads of the ignorant majority and BANG no more traps. While a house cat or two might have been saved from the jaws of the trap. How many have been killed by the increased coyote population. On this issue I knew the facts but I knew it would pass anyway.
My point being, sometimes just a few words can swing the vote if not opposed.
Now I just know beansprouts can feel pain, on some level.
05-01-2003, 07:58 PM
Last night I caught 17 trout. I asked each one if they felt pain at the prick of the barb in their lip or pleasure at the morsel/fly they thought was food, or shame that they had been tricked by a fisherman or pride that they had beaten their fellow trout in the pursuit of my fly or anger that their fight with me was not theirs to win.
Every one of them told me that I should ask the one that got away....
As for the beansprouts, well we had a late spring LARGE dump of snow last weekend so I have to wait a few more days before I bring them in for interrogation. I;ll let you know waht they have to say.
05-02-2003, 06:44 AM
Interesting for me to read some views from the other side of the Atlantic. I envy any of you who feel confident that this research, and the publicity resulting from it, can simply be ignored or laughed away. I wish I could feel as secure. Here are some facts to consider:
There is a bill currently going through the UK Parliament to ban hunting with dogs. A similar ban is already in place in Scotland, though its legitimacy is being appealed to Europe. The findings of the independent Burns Enquiry into hunting have largely been ignored in the drafting of this legislation, which is largely based on emotion, anthropomorphic sentimentality and urban ignorance. And if hunting goes, be in no doubt that other field sports will be in the sights of the antis – the RSPCA has already pledged this. And while I don’t believe PETA is widely regarded as a serious body, the RSPCA certainly is.
In Germany fishermen are now by law obliged to kill all they catch. This is based on the argument that C&R risks unnecessary harm to a fish with no justification in utility (ie eating your catch) - it matters not the least that many fresh water fish are virtually inedible. This anti-C&R position has been endorsed by the Director General of the RSPCA, and although this is not yet the explicit policy of that organisation, they have declared that they wish to see an (as yet unpublished) code of conduct to regulate fishing.
The Roslin Institute’s research has been very widely reported in all the news media here. It has received far more coverage than Professor Rose’s contradictory findings did when they were published a couple of months ago. No mention has been made of the possible pain resulting from commercial fishing practices, pollution of waterways etc. It is as if hook-and-line is the only way in which pain can be inflicted on fish (if at all), and the focus of all the extensive reporting of this piece of research has been on recreational fishing.
With every person who is turned against fishing; with every small shift in public opinion that results from the sensationalist headlines, the anti-fishing snowball rolls another few inches downhill and grows a little bigger. Be in no doubt that attacks on fishing are only going to increase. Fishing still enjoys solid support in this country (and even more so in the US, I believe), but that is certainly no reason to ignore the opposition. 150 years ago I expect the suggestion that fox hunting should be banned would have been greeted with derision, but now it is a very real prospect. A ban on fishing may not happen in our lifetimes, but if you want your great-grandchildren to be able to share your recreation, complacency is not the way to go. ‘Semper paratus’ is right.
05-02-2003, 07:38 AM
Well, what's left to be said that hasn't already been covered? As a marine scientist with a heavy background in ichthyology and marine bio, and as one that has grown up literally outdoors more than indoors, I must say that it will be a cold day in hell indeed when I surrender my fishing rights to these incompetent idiots. I've told them as much in a letter, but apparently my plea to disband the lot of them went on deaf ears. Seriously, where will this all end? The fishing industry is enormous in the US in terms of money spent on a yearly basis, and there are thousands of jobs that revolve around it; take that away? I don't think so. Even more, get a President in office that comes from a fishing and hunting background, do you think PETA can pass their proposals off over here? No way. And furthermore, because these morons are ultimately for the equality of every living organism on the planet, people will eventually be asked to give up their pets and companion animals because of the cruelty of "ownership"... oh come on! Millions of people across the world are so devoted to their pets that they spend more on health care for them than they do for themselves! I own a pair of Australian Shepherds that are like children to me, and my response to their request will be, "Over my dead body"... and that goes the same for giving up fishing. Should we give up drinking beer and eating yogurt because there are live organisms in these foods? Since I work for a company that manufactures products for aquarium care, I'd love the have the head of PETA walk into our building... he'd never get out alive.
So, to PETA I say... "Shove it."
05-02-2003, 11:26 PM
Don't trout eat flying ants and bees?
Bean sprouts not only feel pain they are psychic too. There was an experiment a while back where they connected an EKG machine to a plant and dropped brine shrimp into boiling water to see if the plants reacted. They reported that plants did indeed react and had psychic abilities. I wonder if the same guys did the trout experiment.
Excuse me ......... I feel the sudden urge to water my plants.
78.4% of all statistics are totally made up.
05-06-2003, 12:48 AM
since we have been bombed relentlessly in the last few weeks with study after study concerning lesser species that inhabit this great world, i pose this question with sincere curiousity.......
can vegetarians still eat Animal Crackers?:(
Do zero population growth proponents hate their mothers? :hehe:
05-06-2003, 02:12 AM
Well then this has risen to a lofty spot indeed and the likes of us poor bespotted souls will not likely be made to figure what is right' nor wrong from the lofty goals of the PETA types. But I for one am impressed with the ability to gather a gang of soorts that can pierce stab and manipulate without any venom cider acid or other sh^t that means ???
Juro, I suspect they Do!
John I hope you did not ....
Flyfisha1 Shove it says he well I think your close we will talk again. So this is serious, I mind the reaction of the darlins that will have there way with me and mine when it comes to the way of the fish.
But I fear for there lives as it will soon be eternal and then there will be the end and as far as I know there is not yet a room monitor put in charge of "Fly Fishing"!
While vinegar does contain dilute acetic acid, glacial acetic acid can and does cause severe burning and tissue damage. By the way, did you ever have bee venom on your hands? I have - and it burned like hell!
These tests only prove that fish were sensitive to tissue destruction, rather than pain from a fish hook. A better test for fishing comparison would be to insert a hook only in the jaw, and watch for a reaction.
We all have caught fish that had been hooked previously and broken off with the hook still in them; did these fish act strangely prior to hitting, if you observed them beforehand?? I have stalked a fish and watched it many times before catching it, and on several occasions they still bore a fly from a previous encounter.
05-07-2003, 03:39 PM
i am sure that fish feel some degree of pain, as do most living creatures. But the real question is just how do thier brains and nervous systems convey a pain response to the rest of the fish, and why doesn't that fish learn from his painful experiences? do fish not learn where, when and how to stalk prey? Surely we are not talking about intellectual giants by any means, but how do you explain catching the same blasted bluegill three times ina row? surely a fish must feel pain, but the fact that it does should not deter anyone with an ethical sporting tradition and code of ethics to preclude him/her self from enjoying a sport that is more heritage than lesiure. sure he hurts, just get him back safely to the water and let him , and his wounded pride, heal.....tell Peta to stay out of my fishing hole and i keep my foot outta thier ass. sounds fair to me.
05-07-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by fishheadfred
...tell Peta to stay out of my fishing hole and i keep my foot outta thier ass. sounds fair to me.
Now that's what I'm talkin' about! I'm there with ya!
05-07-2003, 09:31 PM
a fraternity bro. of mine was fishing a tourney in Texas several years ago and a bunch of liberal hippie tree huggers came along beside them and began banging on pots and pans and screaming on bullhorns. the tourney official that was on board was the first to begin throw bottles and crap at 'em!!!! he laughs everytime he tells about that old man screaming obscenities at those guys!! they ultimately post-poned the 2nd round and picked the event up a few weeks later, unannounced of course.
that kind of crap is a crime in most states, and in Ky, it could even be battery or assault, depending on the situation and the type of confrontational contact. But in Ky, it could also be the end of your protesting days. We have very few guns laws (hint, hint):hehe:
Better yet, have a look at this.
01-21-2004, 09:09 PM
Excellent! Hit PETA where it hurt$!
01-22-2004, 11:52 AM
last week the Bush administration recommended easing restrictions on mines that wanted to dump fill into valleys (where fish live). Where's the petition to stop that? Thousands of stripers were killed in the last month in N.C. by net fishermen, and thrown back as they caught larger ones (they are limited to how many they can bring in). Where is the petition to stop that? The endangered species act is being ignored in the PNW, and Steelhead and Salmon are in many places barely making it. How come nobody posts petitions to enforce the Endangered Species act?
Why do we see a new ppetitonagainstpeta every couple of months, and people are very excited to get behind it, but when it comes to other, more grave attacks on fish and fishermen, we see nothing?
I have said it bebeforepeta sucks, but what about the more important issues? How come there is seemingly less urgency when it comes to the environment? I know that most, if not all of us, are concerned (if not active) about environmental issues, but I don't see the same passion. People HATE peta. Perhaps deservedly. But peta isn't killing fish. peta isn't closing off acaccesspeta isn't destroying habitat. Why does peta generate more emotion than the larger threats to the sport/life we love?
I guess because this is a peta thread. I guess I am also ignorant of the facts you stated. The Bush statement does not suprise me a bit, though I was not aware of it. I encourage you to keep posting the facts and I would love to get behind any organized movements to stop the things you mentioned from happening. With limited time and resources the best I can do is vote for pro-envoronment candidates.
I think we can do all of this and still try to kill peta in our spare time. Maybe, unlikely but just maybe some of the money peta is stealing by claiming a false tax status will go toward busting a dam or reforesting a strip mine.
01-22-2004, 03:18 PM
Where is the petition to return the money that Enron and so many other corporation steal from us by cheating on their taxes? peta is a leach in a pond full of snake heads.
It is good to have a thread like this one to get people motivated to wipe out peta, and Jim, I hope that you don't take this personally. I know that we all have only so much time and energy. It's not as if I am doing more than anyone else.
I'm just wondering why peta.... and not he bigger issues. Why are people so interested in peta's tax status, and not the tax status of major polluters, comercial fishermen (talk about tax cheats!!), timber, mining and live stock companies....the list goes on.
It would seem that peta has some very powerful enemies. I recieved three emails regarding the peta petition. I never get anything from my sportsman friends about the environment. Sad.
Valid points Eddie, as always.
Being one of the people who sent you the PETA link, I have to say that I believe the reason for the aggressive reaction & pursuit of PETA vs. environmental violators or tax cheats is that neither of them pursue the termination of our right to fish in such an aggressive & offensive manner.
01-22-2004, 05:06 PM
Jeff, don't take me off your list!:eek:
Of course not - just responding.