Buillding your own sink tips. Probably old ground here. [Archive] - Fly Fishing Forum

: Buillding your own sink tips. Probably old ground here.


fredaevans
04-12-2003, 07:47 PM
LC 13 was the old standard; Aaron sent me some new stuff (far! better! and if I got it right it's 14 grains per foot. RIO has their "big boys' clocking in at 300-400-500 grains per foot.

Is any of this stuff available for a 'do it yourself' project? Thinking forward to the Spring King season where the lead chuckers are using (water flow conditions) from 1.5-3 oz of lead to get down and stay down. That we can't match ... but closer ... short of putting lead shot on your leader?
fae

sinktip
04-12-2003, 10:23 PM
Fred,

There has always been stuff around that will get you down in a heartbeat. The trouble is casting it for an entire day. Sections of 550 Deep Water Express will do the trick. If you can cast them DWE also comes in 650 and 750 grain versions I believe. I have a 13' section of the 550 that I use from time to time. Also have a 17' tip of the same that never gets used.

More to the question you asked, the Rio Type 8 comes on a roll so you can get how ever much you need. I picked up some the other day at a local shop. The price was .36 a foot so a 15' chunk cost me less than $6.

On any of the above, cut to length and install a braided loop, coat with aqua-seal and you are good to go.

sinktip

flytyer
04-13-2003, 12:01 AM
Fred,

If you really want to get down, Deep Water Express and lead dumbell eyes on the fly are the way to go. Use the 700 gr. Deep Water Express (DWE comes in 550 gr., 700 gr., and 850 gr.) You will need to use your biggest rod though. I have an 11 1/2 foot piece of 700 gr. Deep Water Express that I use with my 1611 T&T when I really need to get down in a hurry.

The problem with the DWE and lead eye combo is pulling it up out of the water and then casting it before it starts sinking. It can be done, but it is not a pretty cast. And when it gets out to where you want it to be, it just crashes in the water - no finesse at all.
Your maximum casting distance will also be reduced somewhat because you have to open up the casting loop and the shear density and weight of the tip and lead eye fly.

You can also remove the second floating tip from a RIO Windcutter and put on a RIO Leviathon tip. Again it is not a pretty cast, but it gets the job done.

Almost forgot, like Sinktip said, casting this stuff will wear you out in a few hours. It take a lot of effort to pull it up and cast it.

fredaevans
04-13-2003, 12:12 AM
Whose puts out the DWE? Spooled stuff or an actual line? Were we chase the Sping Kings is not a pretty thing anyway, so "style" is not an issue. Getting deep, down and dirty is the game.

I'll be using the B and W 18' 10-11 so this rod would throw a brick. Should say that a 60-80 foot cast is all I'd need for 95% of the fishing situations. Beyond that (GASP!) it's back to a 11-12 drift rod and 2 oz of lead.. AND YOU'LL NEVER GET A PICUTRE of that.

fae

pescaphile
04-13-2003, 03:09 AM
Deep Water Express is a Scientific Angler's product. It's put out in a standard 30-foot shooting head. You can find it a most NW flyshops. Cortland also has something called "kerboom" a 30-foot lead-core shooting head in 450 grains and I think a larger size, 750 grains perhaps. It may or not be still available. All this stuff sinks like a brick, and also cast like one too.

pescaphile

BobK
04-13-2003, 07:15 AM
Fred, some of the "heavy water" fanatics here make sink tips out of old fashioned lead core line, weighing the length on a reloader's scale to get the weight they want, cutting it, then attaching loops. They have been doing it for years. I assume you probably know about it already, but just thought I'd mention it in case it slipped the attention of the west coast guys.

BobK

fredaevans
04-13-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by pescaphile
Deep Water Express is a Scientific Angler's product. It's put out in a standard 30-foot shooting head. You can find it a most NW flyshops. Cortland also has something called "kerboom" a 30-foot lead-core shooting head in 450 grains and I think a larger size, 750 grains perhaps. It may or not be still available. All this stuff sinks like a brick, and also cast like one too.

pescaphile

shorter in size. But, then again the 18'B and W will throw a brick ... but it does ware you down pretty darned quick.
fae

loco_alto
04-13-2003, 02:08 PM
taking it a step further, RIO makes tungsten heads in 1000 and 1150 gr/30 ft. These some to 33 and 38 gr/ft.

Some folks fish 3-6' lengths of this meat chain on small streams for winter fish, attaching it directly to shooting line, on a single handed rod. Gets down fast, hangs up with zero line control, etc etc. Never considered using it on the business end of a spey rod, though.

Steve

fredaevans
04-13-2003, 07:44 PM
Has anyone "hacked up" these lines and done them as sink tips/sinking leaders?
fae

kjackson
04-14-2003, 02:44 PM
Hey Fred--

I used to use a short section of leadcore as a shooting head with mono running line while fishing for rockfish in Port Angeles harbor. It worked great as long as you learned to duck once in a while.

I have yet to do much cutting of lines, but that is the project I'm working on at the moment. I did try a short section of leadcore off a seven-weight SA multi-tip, and it casts fairly well. Not something I would care to fish on a regular basis without some fine tuning, though.

Here's my contribution to this thread-- leadcore line is manufactured in different break strengths as we all know. However, you might not know that the lead core only comes in two thicknesses or diameters (as a rule). The difference in pound test comes from the differences in the braided covering. I've got some 14-pound leadcore made with the smaller lead core, and it's a whole different animal from the usual run of line. I haven't played with it on a fly rod yet, but that's in the cards for this summer.

Keith

flytyer
04-14-2003, 05:06 PM
Fred,

As pescaphile said, SA makes Deep Water Express and it comes in 30 foot spools in either 550 gr., 700 gr., or 850 gr. The weight of the line refers to what the whole 30 foot piece weighs. Cortland's Kerboom comes in 2 sizes 450 and 650 gr., again that is the weight of the 30 foot piece it comes packaged in.

DWE is a much more supple line than Kerboom. Any of these lines can be cut up into sink tips. Also, I forgot about the super heavy RIO heads; loco-alto, thanks for remembering them.

All of this stuff sinks like an anvil, and casts about as well too. Your big B&W would be able to chuck it in lengths up to 10 feet for the stuff over 700 gr. weight; but like I said, it won't be pretty.

fredaevans
04-14-2003, 10:21 PM
With the spring salmon, pretty and 50 cents will buy you a half cup of coffee. Water flow is usually kept at a minimum of 2500 cfs out of the dam. So by time you get to Medford you're running closer to 3500-4000 cfs. Sweep the bottom or stay home and watch tv.
fae

pmflyfisher
04-15-2003, 10:25 AM
Fred,

FYI, I have been using Deep Water Express sinking line cut up into tips since it came out which I think was in early 1980s (83/84)

I am a sink tip fanatic, always looking for new stuff to experiment with.

Current aresenal includes

- DWE
- Air Flo Poly Tips
- Cortland Sink Heads
- Rio T-14
- Home made LC, etc..

God I love the complexity of each part of this sport no one can ever master it all, there always something new to learn and apply, etc.

PM Out

fredaevans
04-15-2003, 11:36 AM
Seen a couple of referrences to this of late; new product to me. What is it and how's it 'different?'
fae

pmflyfisher
04-15-2003, 11:39 AM
Its thin, flexible, casts well, and sinks like a stone in my initial on river tests.

PM Out

juro
04-15-2003, 12:36 PM
Fred -

Here's my .02 for what it's worth (probably .01) ;)

Like many members I've bought and tried a lot of this stuff and up until recently when judged in terms of casting / fishing balance I preferred the old SA STS 30' shooting heads in Type II, III and IV over other products. The tapers on these old shooting heads were made specifically for casting, and you can feel it in the way they turn over especially when spey casting. It's a far cry from a floating line but it is a very smooth loop form without too much of a change from the floating line stroke.

If you buy a 30' SA STS shooting head and cut it 13' from the front you end up with two nice tips once looped. Actually, Dennis Worley showed me how to do this about 15 years ago come to think of it - for a single handed hybrid line on the 896 RPL. Thanks Dennis I sure caught a bunch of fish with it in the years that followed. For a single hander, it's good to go one line wt over on the STS or match the line weight - for Spey rods I prefer to go same or one lower and use a slightly longer tip. The finer diam. and length gets the fly down there without screwing up the stroke too much.

I wasn't too fond of the loop methods out there so I came up with my own method (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/expertise/steelhead/lines/tipsystem.htm), which may or may not suit your tastes. I've still got loops that are perfect since the 80's, even if the lines are cracked up. I've also had rocks cut a sinktip in half before the loops gave way.

The disadvantages of these STS heads are that the smooth taper is less assertive in lowering the fly to the column you seek, where some density comp -or- higher grain / finer diameter tips will do the dirty deed much better for you. I would imagine the Rio tungsten is probably the most effective for dredging due to small diameter and dense grains, I will be testing a new tip I made with it later on this week in heavy flows. The guys in the PNW will have more recent testimonials I'm sure but I'll post what I find out FWIW.

Nevertheless what you get from cutting the STS is most often good enough to do the job and it's a relative pleasure to cast.

Then you have the sinking leaders...
I am not sold on them, although I am really trying to like them and I do use them more because they are so easy to use. But I don't feel like I am getting as much sink as I need to be worth the effect it has on my anchor. My gripe is that the old STS shooting head tip casts better because it has a normal mono leader and a gradual distribution of grains instead of a sudden increase at the end, and it gets down deeper on the swing. I just can't see where they fit, but I'll keep tryin'

On Thursday I will be field testing a bunch of different tips on a new hybrid line I cut up and looped. The PNW guys will have volumes more to say about their sinktip experiences but I'll post what I find out just the same.

pmflyfisher
04-15-2003, 01:57 PM
Fred,

Based on the high CFS numbers I have seen on that narrow river, make sure the drift gear is always in the car as a back up. There may not be a sinking line on this planet to get down in that river's flows.

PM Out

removed_by_request
04-15-2003, 02:29 PM
Fred,

You could always use the old PM method..chuck n duck. :devil: :devil:

Like Juro's method to making loops, that one I have got to try.

fredaevans
04-15-2003, 03:50 PM
flat on my face in the river. Amazing the force in LC 13 if you blow the forward cast. Another good reason I'm trying to avoid the stuff like the Plague.
:whoa:

pmflyfisher
04-15-2003, 04:42 PM
Fred,

Always carry a couple of slinkies in your vest for those emergency situations and when no one is around to witness the event.;)

PM Out

removed_by_request
04-15-2003, 07:36 PM
The old PM get down fast rig...slinky. It amazes that they sell them for $1.50 each.

fredaevans
04-15-2003, 08:57 PM
Well, a couple of double singles screws up your spelling (and your brain) YUCK! Got to be a GL thing; I couldn't handle the "strange looks;" too many folks know me as one of the few "two handers."

When I do pull out a 12' drift rod (hay, there are times when you need 2oz of lead or stay home) I get still get very strange looks. Won't repeat the story of the OSP and 'the snaging story' but one look at the 18' B and W (did have the other rod...) and end of story... other than do you (Please!) WANT to press charges against the dumb sh.. guide with a stick up his .. Never mind.

fae

juro
04-16-2003, 05:46 AM
PM - I look forward to seeing how the d-loop is lifted into the forward cast with a slinky on the leader at the clave. :hehe:

removed_by_request
04-16-2003, 07:35 PM
PM= Pere Marquette river. One of Michigans storied slinky rivers.

There is a booming slinky business there, I am suprised they don't sell them in vending machines. Hmmmmm, might be a good business venture in Salmon season.:devil: :devil:

fredaevans
04-16-2003, 07:47 PM
Heck, they sell soda pop, candy bars, etc., out of these things ... why not 'slinkies?' Is that how you spell that?

A potential "profit center'' for the Board .. a good thing as we've got to come up with ways to "keep the lights on." Dana, Juro, et. al. didn't bust there butts to have this forum fizzle out for a lack of needed funding.

Or as an old boss was 'want to say:' "There is no free lunch."
fae

removed_by_request
04-17-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by fredaevans

' "There is no free lunch."
fae

The latin version of the above....................

Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

In case you were interested

pmflyfisher
04-17-2003, 08:28 AM
You guys can inspect my FF vest, you will find no slinkys but my backup gear bags in the car are off limits to any inspections.

Got to give those PNW andramous fisherman a lot of credit though for inventing the slinky, it is an effective simple piece of technology to get down and avoid constant hangups.

LOL

PM Out

removed_by_request
04-17-2003, 08:54 AM
Look how it adapted in Mi. chuck n duck was developed with that in mind. Drift fishing with fly gear.

fredaevans
04-17-2003, 09:09 AM
With appoligizes to the language: my personal fav. has always been Illigitimus Non Carbarundum.

Or "don't let the bastards grind you down.'
fae

pmflyfisher
04-17-2003, 09:30 AM
C+D with fly gear is also done in the PNW from some
internet conversations I have had.

PM Out

removed_by_request
04-17-2003, 11:13 AM
Too bad its used on the PM to floss bedded fish. Guides favorite tool to get clients into fish.

Lipripper
04-17-2003, 12:16 PM
WOWEEEE! How did I miss this one? Guides posting up on graveled fish with clients? Here? In Michigan? Nah....

When you guys are at the clave make sure and check out "Gaza Strip" after lunch. That's where all the guides who have been blanked for the day go to get into a "sure thing". Good place to watch fish greed take place. My personal favorite is the "Hook and Handoff" Where the guide lines the fish...sets the hook...and hands it off to the client. Follow it down...land it...and it's high fives all the way around. A real "Steelhead Dream".;)

LR

I won't pint the finger too hard though. I've been known to fling lead on occasion in the deep fast stuff.:devil:

pmflyfisher
04-17-2003, 12:52 PM
Its not just the PM probably used on most GLs rivers from what I have seen to date. Although there is less C+D than 10 years ago I would say. More movement to sink tips and indy fishing.

C+D is also used in PNW but to a lesser extant from my indirect knowledge of the situation.

PM Out

removed_by_request
04-17-2003, 01:18 PM
C&D is probably the most popular method for snapping up steel on the Mi streams. Try and find a guide who won't (I said won't not doesn't) do it. Dream man himself is a big nodding donkey C&Der.

It was a good idea gone bad when you put $$ into the equation. It works very well on the short semi-deep fast Mi. runs, only problem is that it is a deadly flossing tool in anybodys hands.

Guides in the know stopped using slinkies and use big round spilt shot. Watched way too many PM guru guides teach the client the finer art of; 'when you feel it stop or bounce set the hook".