03-15-2003, 08:40 PM
I have always doubled over my line when tying any of the knots I typically use. This goes for clinch knots and nail knots and everything in between. I fish big flies and long lines and like to know I have maximum line strength in my knots.
I would like to try loops for my flies so as to let them have a bit more action but I have yet to find a knot that will form a loop but still have double line going through the eye (as well as comprising the knot). I tried a Duncan Loop and it ties beautifully with the doubled over line but as soon as it's tightened, it gets cockeyed because part of the line is slipping through the kot and part of it isn't.
Any ideas? Thanks.
I would start by tying a couple of standard "loop" knots with doubled-up leader if it were me. Examples are the perfection loop, or the surgeon's knot - only double the line first.
I don't feel the need, so I never needed this, but if I did, that would be my starting point. I would check "break strength" with a scale at home beforehand, however.
Just another thought - if the knot is generally recognized as the weakest point of the leader, does it increase strength any if you go from a single strand to a double strand with a knot? Not being smart, just asking.
(If I still was working, and had lab access, I would do some testing and give you the answer!)
03-16-2003, 12:04 PM
Yes, a Surgeon knot with doubled-over tippet would form a nice loop but it would not tighten when pressure is applied. My search is for a loop that will tighten once pressure is applied as is the case with the Duncan Loop .
Regarding your comment:
.."Just another thought - if the knot is generally recognized as the weakest point of the leader, does it increase strength any if you go from a single strand to a double strand with a knot? Not being smart, just asking..."
Part of what determines knot strength is whether or not the line comprising the knot ends up cutting into itself (or getting "cut" by another larger diameter line it's being attached to).
Take a length of 20# tippet and blood-knot it to a length of 10# test. With just a bit of pressure you can break the knot quite easily because the 10# test is in effect "cut" by the 20 # test.
Take the same 10 # test tippet length and double it over. Tie the same blood knot to the 20 # length, tighten carefully, then trim the resulting ends. If you're using a burly line like Maxima it'll cut your fingers before it breaks. Same concept when you tie a knot like an improved clinch knot with doubled-over line. This is a wonderful knot to attach a fly to a leader. There is no question the doubled-over tippet adds knot strength. But this knot can't be used so as to form a "loop". So I continue my search. Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
03-16-2003, 01:29 PM
Look in Lefty Krey's book on knots. I don't remember what it is called, but there is non sliping loop knot that is used to attach the fly so that it is free so swing, therefor giving it more action. This knot could be tied with the doubled line.
03-16-2003, 01:59 PM
One of the several advantages of the Uni knot (aka Trilene knot) is that it can be used to form a small loop that will tighten under pressure. I've never tied a Uni with doubled line, but it should be feasible (perhaps with fewer turns).
The non-slip mono knot in Lefty's book is one of the few knots that tests almost 100 per cent knot strength. Using a uni-knot, the break point is considerably less.
Curiousity question: the uni-knot slips under tension (ala hookup) and comes tight to the hookeye. Is that important if you keep tension on the line to insure that the hookset remains in place?
The non-slip mono is an excellent knot to use for maximum free fly movement with the advantage of knot strength. I agree in light tippet applications that a double line clinch improves knot strength, and the same applies to blood knots tied using significantly different diameter material, e.g. .020 connected to .010.
Another knot that is used for added strength is doubling a bimini twist with a double surgeons knot for a loop or albright knot to a bite/shock tippet.
03-17-2003, 08:54 AM
Basically the same principle as the lefty no-slip loop. I would think you'll only want the line going through the eye once anyway as the idea is to impart as much action to the fly as possible.
Depends on what kind of tippet you're using too. I would stay away from loops altogether if you're in the 5x or under category.
03-17-2003, 11:54 AM
..."Curiousity question: the uni-knot slips under tension (aka hookup) and comes tight to the hookeye. Is that important if you keep tension on the line to insure that the hookset remains in place? ...."
I don't think the hookset is as much of a concern as abrasion iwould be on a single stranded loop, especially when there is always the possibility of abrasive rust in the hook eye. I can imagine that when you have a hook eye sliding back and forth on a short single strand of line in a loop while you're fighting a fish sooner or later it's going to break.
Thus the search for a knot which utilizes doubled-over line in the tying of a loop knot and tightens up to the hook eye under tension into a tidy tight knot. I'm sure the salt-water guys are probably familiar with a knot that would have these characteristics?
03-19-2003, 12:27 AM
Lefty Kreh's knot book has a non-slip mono loop that is excellent.
For other heavy duty knots see Geoff Wilson's three knot books available from www.amatobooks.com. Wilson is an Australian salt water fisherman who knows heavy duty knots.
p.s. Juro- please send email address for refs to this board. Thanks